Mushroom's tank

[Mushroom]

Ok here is my tank details:

Set-up Date: 4th February 2002

Tank Size: 48x18x15 (no sump, no refugium,no DSB,no plenum)

Lighting: 150W MH plus 80W actinics (4 tubes)

Filtration: Tunze Inside-Tank Comline 3110 skimmer, Eheim 2211 external filter filled with virtually nothing (just some Siprorax), about 20kg of live rock.

Circulation: One big Rio 1700

Water changes : None (Old tank going fine with no water change for 8 years), used tapwater mixed with Instant Ocean for initial tank fill.

Feeding Regime: Nothing whatsoever

Addictives: Seachem Reef Complete about 3ml once a week

Water parameters: No idea (have not used any test kit for 8 years)

Here is the result after nearly 3 months:

Casualty: None

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/tank2sd.JPG

Of course I won't recommend my method to beginners as experience is the most important equipment.

[craigandsimon]

okay - no water changes - but no food - u are joking?
i hope u are
si

[LEEWINK]

i run with si, i'm afraid, everything generally alive needs to eat, just wondering what gives, maybe you could share with us your experienced ways, as i'm sure as the rest of us, we would all like to know (maybe speak only for some), "every living thing (most) has a central nervous system, like plants in the garden and even us, the only difference with a plant is it has no mouth to scream when you cut it down, or when its hungry, or when you rip apart, my arguement to vegetarians", and losely elsewhere. I feed my corals every week without fail, i'm not sure whether they eat it, but i know (my view) i am happy that i have tried, and when they re open after food take, they look 'happier' to me, i only try to give the best to what i do, and take sound advice when possible, to minimise risk and danger to an already 'debated hobby', if we can keep animals alive, reproduce maybe, give a little round aswell, this is what i call reefing - "to keep another ecosystem, which is totally different to our own, to love, care, look after, and give to it 100%, and the day i can't or lose interest, i will not hesitate to re-instate my little babies with someone who will give what i have", thx for listening, a little bit on me aswell, have fun lee http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (no arguements please, just my view)

[Karl]

Hi

Tank and inhabitants look fab. A little more info to clear up above Q's would be great.

Cheers Karl http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif

[Mushroom]

I know the concept of LIGHT being a food is a bit hard to understand but that is exactly what is feeding my tank. There is this fascinating creature known as algae that can generate sugars from light in a process known as photosynthesis. Most of the corals we keep has algae in their cells and generate its own food this way. Tangs and snails in turn are herbivores that feed on the algae that grows on the surface of live rock. Peppermint shrimps are cleaners that feed on tiny organisms on the live rock.

Many organisms in the live rock in turn can spawn and release zooplankton, many algaes can spawn too and release phytoplankon. These larval stage of these animals provide a rich soup from which filter-feeding corals can feast upon. Having said that, I don't keep corals that are exclusively filter-feeders as I don't believe we can replicate the plankton rich ocean.

Hope that answers your question and thanks for the nice comment Karl.

[Nathan]

Mushroom, know exactly what you mean about the light, but why would corals have so much of their body dedicated to catching food if they didn't need it.

Just looking at the pic, is the montipora encrusting down onto the rock? looks to be doing well.



Last edited by Nathan at April 23 2002,01:12

[wilski]

Mushroom

Wow, http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif now that's what I'd call a 'natural reef tank'. you mention </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">experience is the most important equipment.[/b][/quote] where can I get large amounts of this and is it available mail order!? http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[simonh]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mushroom @ April 22 2002,20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know the concept of LIGHT being a food is a bit hard to understand but that is exactly what is feeding my tank. There is this fascinating creature known as algae that can generate sugars from light in a process known as photosynthesis.[/b][/quote]
Where does the protein come from for building tissues?

[craigandsimon]

hmm, still dont know about the food thing.
nice tank by the way, how long u had the fish - u must have a lot of algae to keep that powder blue fat.
best of luck
si

[Mushroom]

"Where does the protein comes from for building tissues?" Good question Simon H, I too was wondering why my protein skimmer was going mad even though I had no fish in the tank and all the live rock were cured. The answer still lies with photosynthesis believe it or not, or more specifically what happens when the light goes out.

So we agreed that algae is able to generate sugars from light in a process known as photosynthesis, now imagine there is another process known as the Calvin Cycle. This Cycle occurs when the light goes out and the algae is then able to synthesis amino acids, fats and all the other tissue building molecules from the sugars that they made during the day.

[mattbeaman]

Mushroom

Not for me to doubt the benefits of your experience, but I think you're overestimating the 'soup' you believe exists in your tank without any supplementation. For a start off (and I think you're misinterpreting the Calvin cycle if you look at the result of the dark cycle in summary;

6 RuDP + 6 CO2 > 12 3-PG
12 3-PG + 12 NADPH2 + 12 ATP > 12 GAP + 12 ADP + 12 Pi + 12 NADP
12 GAP > 1 glucose (net synthesis product of carbon dioxide assimilation) + 10 GAP
10 GAP + 6 ATP > 6 RuDP

but i'll leave that to the qualified biologists to answer), your skimmer going mad has nothing to do with algae producing sugars or proteins. When I only feed live foods, my skimmer does very little, and I feed much larger amounts than you have in your tank naturally . If algae were to blame then mine would be going mad too. I would guess perhaps the rock wasn't cured or its just the tank cycling. (but then if you don't use a test kit how would you know.)

For example, whats all that to do with protein sysnthesis in algae got to do with anything quite frankly? The algae on your rock has little to do with feeding corals. Unless you have pea green water full of microalgae(phytoplankton) which I doubt.....then how the hell are the proteins and long chain omega's going to benefit anything except the algae itself? For example, Macro algaes such as Cal. species are never going to become Nanno. or Tetra are they?

Also you mention the little bugs in the rocks releasing loads of eggs and sperm as zooplankton.....quite true....but what do you think they live on? Without said phytoplankton, how diverse do you think your populations are? I would suggest very limited besides a few copepods and amphipods.

When you add to this the destructive effect of the protein skimmer, I would guess there's very little left to feed your tank.

FWIW if you would like to send me a water sample(ideally with a small substrate sample too) then I'd be glad to do a microscopic analysis on it to see just what zoo. and phyto. there is occurring in your tank water.

I'm just concerned that such statements as you have made are a little misguiding to some of those coming into the hobby with less experience than yourself. The general direction I believe will be towards less supplements, and more feeding, particularly of natural foods whether live or dead.

Sure many things will live without in your tank, but that doesn't mean you are providing the optimum conditions for their upkeep. For example you can get away with no water changes in some cases, but as Dr Ron Shimek's data shows, over time (and with you adding reef complete) the makeup of your water will continue to move further and further away from NSW levels. This is in no way ideal surely?

If you haven't used a test kit in 8years how on earth do you know if you're at the right dKH levels for example. I'm all for being able to tell if somethings out by looking at the corals, but no-one I believe, could even guess their dKH level without a test kit.

Finally with regards to being unable to copy NSW levels of food, well on a tank size such as yours, it'd be far easier than you think.(and not very expensive.)

Regards
Matt. http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Last edited by mattbeaman at April 24 2002,22:22

[Mrs H]

Mushroom

I think you might have got the Calvin-Benson cycle muddled up with the Cribbs cycle. *The Calvin-Benson cycle is integral in photosynthesis in making the uptake of inorganic carbon into organic carbon. *Do you mean the Cribbs cycle (or now know as the citric acid cycle) which is part of respiration and doesnot require light? *However, both of these processes are predominantly linked to the production of energy mocules, although you do see some protein production but mainly as enzymes not amino acids.

Protein synthesis is actived by the ATP or NADPH (energy molecules) with amino acids through an enzyme cascade to produce proteins. *You still need the raw materials in the form of amino acids, coupled with the energy produced to form proteins. *Similar processes exist for lipid production.

The biochemistry put to one side, my concerns are that you are producing a closed system and I can't think of any systems in nature that can survive in such circumstances in the long-term (ecology and all that boring stuff means that each system requires inputs and outputs to survive). *Your tank has only been set up for a short time so there will still be nutrients within the system at the moment, once these are depleted then the closed system will kick in, as photosynthesis and respiration can not sustain your ecosystem alone.

Having said all that, you say you had a tank for 8 years before this one, prehaps you can supply us with some of the details on that system and your longer term evidence on not feeding a tank. *Also, why did you changed to your current set up?

[Mushroom]

Hang on there before this thread becomes too scientific http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Ok I am not a biologist and I may have mis-understood the Calvin Cycle, but what is amino acids? To me they are mainly made up of carbon,hydrogen,oxygen and nitrogen, elements that are freely available in both air and water. If I am not mistaken, life on this planet is believed to have started from algae in the ocean??

Matt, when you said "What does protein synthesis in algae got to do with anything", I am sure you are aware of zooxanthellae, the symbiotic dinoflagellate algae that lives on most of the corals we keep?

Mrs H, I did not change from my old tank to this tank. My old tank is still running and going well. I mentioned my old tank mainly to illustrate the point about water changes. However, of course my old tank is just soft corals and LPS, in those days nobody keep SPS.

I said it before and I will say it again, this is just my method and it has worked for me, so far. I would certainly not recommend a beginner to use this method as a lot of it is down to experience.

[Andy Hipkiss]

Mushroom,

Apart from the wife can't remember how to spell Kreb's http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif perhaps the Calvin cycle is a little confusing. *To simplify a little more than Matt, the cycle is simply:

C5 + CO2 + ATP + NADPH ---> C6H12O6

i.e. a nice pentose sugar, bit of CO2, couple of "energy" molecules and voila ... glucose.

Although called a "dark reaction" it only operates whilst photosynthesis is occuring since it needs the ATP and NADPH to run the cycle.

I actuallly happen to agree with the intent of some of what you wrote. *The use of zooxantellae by corals can provide a little of the energy and "building blocks" required by the corals. *The question is how big is "a little energy". *As has been noted, SPS in particular (probably the highest light coral group) has the greatest density of feeding aparatus per area of any animal. *This is tremendously expensive in terms of energy for an animal .... they aren't doing this for the fun of it!

Where I really don't understand what you are saying is the lack of water changes and feeding. *Sure algae are the primary element of the food chain, but they need phosphorous. *The herbivores eat the algae and the omnivores/carnivores eat the herbivores and grow .. thus locking up the phosphorus. *So where is the new P coming from for further algae to grow??

I also happen to agree that you don't "need" Deltec (and Tunze) to do a good tank ... but equally I've never had such a stress free reefkeeping experience than with the use of Deltec equipment (Aquabee pumps on the Ca reactor excepted).


Finally, erm at least some of us were growing SPS 8 years ago ... *I still have SPS corals that are older than that.



Last edited by Andy Hipkiss at April 25 2002,23:23

[Mushroom]

Thanks for your analysis Andy, I would like to say:

Where do the algae get their ATP and NADH from?
From bacteria. Aerobic bacteria can generate a lot of ATP and NADH through chemosynthesis and we all know our tank has plenty of these bacteria. Anaerobic bateria can do the same through a different method I believe.

Where do the algae get their P from?
From the wastes of herbivores and from evaporation top-up by tapwater. You said herbivores get eaten by omnivores/carnivores and thus the P got lock up, well there is as far as I know nothing in my tank that is eating my tangs and my snails http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , thus they produce wastes which no doubt contain P and are further utilised by the micro sub-fauna in the tank.

How reliant are our corals on the algae to provide their food?
I read somewhere on the net that in an ideal environment i.e the ocean, corals are 60% dependent on the algae as a food source. However, in a stressed environment i.e our tanks, corals are totally dependent on the algae. I am not disputing that corals do feed on planktons in the ocean and as a result they do grow to some monster size in the ocean but in our tanks, I am not convinced we can mimic all the thousands of different planktons and/or to provide a constant supply, without a deterimental effect on water quality and decrease in light penetration.

[Andy Hipkiss]

Mushroom,

As I posted above ... ATP and NADPH are produced by the "light reactions" .... photosynthesis I IIRC, not taken from bacteria.

You kinda missed the point about P. Your tangs grow (hopefully), their body mass contains P. As they grow, more and more P is locked up in their increased body mass (protein for example contains P). A certain amount of P will enter the tank thru airborne dust (good old dead human skin cells for example), but nowhere near enough to keep up with a healthy growing ecosytem ... an aquarium.

Anyway, good luck to you and your aquariums, you have a unique slant on aquarium husbandry and I await your progress reports with great interest.

[BrianO]

No W.Changes ? http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

No addition of any trace elements ( not that I would advocate this, but in the abscence of water changes ! ) http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

How do your Soft and LPS Corals have acess to a steady supply of Calcium Carbonate to grow ?

How is the lovely Blue Scrolling Montipora Capricornis you got a coupla months ago ?
(Still alive , I would hazard a guess not ! )

How does this survive ?

Your theory regarding the provision of zooplankton and algae to feed your Zebramosa spp. does not stack up, no, it is incorrect, and the tank they are in is too small.

Not having a go at you , just hate to see misinformation/misleading information.

How do I know this, I know your LPS and Soft corals need Calcium Carbonate to grow, you are not supplying it. As for your Mont.Cap.......?

Are you happy to see them just get by/barely exist or do you want to see them flourish/grow.

Re: the Tangs

I Know that your tank at 48" L and 18" Wide /High ? * 15"Wide/High" IS TOO SMALL FOR THESE FISH !

Do you know that in the wild, they do not establish a small territory span such as members of, for instance, the Damselfish family ?

My tank is too small for my Tang's at 6' but there has to be some sort of standard, I have two Zebramosa spp. that are in top shape and I KNOW cannot subsist from the natural supply of food in tank, as I KNOW yours can not, especially in a system sized as yours with such a small amount of rockwork and no DSB.

And all this when you have acess to such a wealth of info !


Ohh I give up ! http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Mushroom]

Irishreefer I think different people are "brought up" differently to this hobby and people like me and to a certain extent Andy Hipkiss too can more easily understand why my method has worked on my old tank and is working on my new tank. All my SPS/LPS/mushroom are doing fine, yes even that blue m.cap has all its polyps fully extended all the time. I do add calcium to the tank in the form of Reef Complete as I said, which also contains strontium and magnesium.

As to water changes, we all know the coral reef is a very stable environment and a water change would entail changes in the water chemistry, which you will no doubt agree the new water cannot exactly match the old water. So if your old water has no ammonia,nitrite,nitrate,phosphate, has developed a good bacterial and planktonic life why on earth would you want to replace them with some totally unnatural water designed for human consumption, and the inherit risk of adding some unknown toxins to the water by accident? Not to mention the stress your fish and coral must go through to adapt to the new environment.

My Zebrasoma (Salifin) is feeding very well and is how they feed in the wild, searching for algae all the time rather than relying on us to feed it couple of times a day. As I said, my other Zebrasoma (Yellow) has been in the old tank for some 8 years and no I have not feed it a single thing in all those years, and guess what, it has grown and grown and is fat in the stomach all the times.

As to size of tanks, it is just too easy for people who have the large tanks to criticise people who either don't have the money or the space. We all love to provide our fish with the largest tank possible and yes I know tangs deserve better than what our general aquarium can provide. Would they be better off in the ocean? Probably. Some would live on and reproduce but most would probably end up in the stomach of a predator. Are we wrong to keep a fish that we have no chance to reproduce? That is a moral dilemma but don't forget human is a predator of fish too. I know I am providing my tangs with much much better environment than what the LFS provided and I know the fish is much much happier as a result, and I do hope one day I will have that elusive massive aquarium and would I then criticise someone trying to keep a tang in a 4ft, no I certainly won't as I understand their reasons. Hope that helps, I value your opinion Irishreefer even though yours don't neccessarily agree with mine all the times.

[BrianO]

Mr/Mrs/Ms. Mushroom http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

OK , First off , maybe its time I considered getting spec's http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif as I dont know as to how the hell I read your intro post as u not dosing calcium. My Bad !

My mistake, result of misreading your post. *You can disregard all my irrelevant comments regarding SPS/Calcium/Alkalinity.

Apologies *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">people like me and to a certain extent Andy Hipkiss too can more easily understand why my method has worked on my old tank and is working on my new tank.[/b][/quote]

Mmmm you inferring I is Thick ! http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Try us , were really not that daft., Only a little

As to your water change philosophy, Nope fraid not, wouldnt dream of it. Been there with a four foot tank and know what does and doesent go/work in relation to water parameters. IMO

Think it is good for your large ( well potentially large ) fish to be kept in such a small body of water unchanged.

Mmmm No, I dont.



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Water parameters: No idea (have not used any test kit for 8 years)[/b][/quote]

You said in relation to your lack of a water change regime, about your unchanged water

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So if your old water has no ammonia,nitrite,nitrate,phosphate,[/b][/quote]

How do you know this if u dont ever test ?



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As to size of tanks, it is just too easy for people who have the large tanks to criticise people who either don't have the money or the space. [/b][/quote]

Ahh now , cmon, lets keep it clean Mushie *http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Bottom line Tangs are not suitable for tanks under 6' or let me put it another way, Tangs are not suitable for tanks under 6' !

Observe them in the wild and then compare this behaviour to how your cooped up Tang behaves.

To use a comparison , you could keep alive a large dog by housing it in a confined area , but it would not thrive.


Love to see a closeup of your Tang ( and dont cheat by feeding it on the sly ! *http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif ( Joking )

Has/does your Tang ever suffer from outbreaks of White/Black spot ?


Cheers

Bri. *http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif



Last edited by IrishReefer at May 08 2002,10:46

[reefer]

DELETED.!

This is not a slagging Match !

IMO it is a discussion/debate regarding the way M.Rm. keeps his/her livestock/tank.

Maybe the person in question, sorry, dont know youre name ? can teach us all something re: same, ?.

Especially regarding the way they keep the tank, adhering to a " no water change "policy.

IMO, I am questioning, debating, nothing else. Sometimes it is hard to convey such intentions via the I.Net. * http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It might get a bit heated, opionated at times but as long as it is cordial, no probs http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif


Cheers

Bri. *http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif



Last edited by IrishReefer at May 08 2002,11:04

[Mushroom]

Another 2 months has passed and the tank is now full of life. There are tiny shrimps all over the place (these are real shrimps not copepods/amphipods), my "super rabbit snails" have also been breeding like crazy, started from 9 and I now have over 30 in the tank, with more and more egg cases and more babies hatching. Some of the live rock are now full of sponges, some of which are very colourful and unusual. One of my mushroom has produce 3 babies and all the other mushrooms are growing bigger everyday. All the SPS are growing well, all the acroporas still have those cute crabs in it http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Here is a picture taken today:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/fulltank4sd.JPG

[Andy Hipkiss]

Hi Mushroom,


Coming on nicely it seems.

1 Question) Have you got bashful fish or did you move them to the other tank?

[mattbeaman]

Any piccies of the 'shrimps' and sponges?

Cheers
Matt http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mushroom]

Andy if you look really hard you can just about make out the salifin tang just above the christmas tree worm rock, anyway here is another one of his playful pose, along with 2 of my super rabbit snails (that's their adult size):

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/tang2sd.JPG

The powder blue passed away to white spot as was mentioned in another thread sometimes ago.

Matt you always ask for difficult shots http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The shrimps are very small and are always swimming around at high speed so are impossible to do (they breed at this size). I manage the following two sponge shots which unfortunately does not include the star of the show, which turned out very blurry so will have to re-take.

These black exquisite sponges appeared out of nowhere from a very "barren" piece of live rock, the picture don't do them justice:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/sponge.JPG

These ones came with the mushroom rock and has doubled in size since:
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/sponge1sd.JPG

[BrianO]

Well Mushie

You certainly are in line for the " Greatest Polyp Extension for an Acro.spp." Award. !!.

Incredible.

Have you only the one fish in there ?


Brian.

[ziggy]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You certainly are in line for the " Greatest Polyp Extension for an Acro.spp." Award. !!.
[/b][/quote]


I was thinking that, unbelievable http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

ps Mushie, I can't even see the christmas tree worm rock let alone the sailfin http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers


Ziggy

[Mushroom]

More sponge shots for Matt as promised:

This is the star of the show, what an unusual sponge:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/sponge2sd.JPG

Not sure if this is a sponge or a sea squirt, looks good anyway:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/sponge3.JPG

As to that hairy acro, I thought that species is usually that hairy?? http://www.ultimatereef.net/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[BrianO]

Mushie

I can honestly say that I have never seen such extended polyp extension in an Acro. Spp. , either in any of my own colonies or in any literature , or for that matter , on any of the various pics posted on the Net, or whils diving various Reefs.

I am amazed at it.

That obviuusly is not to say that , it is healthier, etc. than any other spp. kept/seen, but it is incredible, in relation to that aspect !

Can you post a close up and pic of it with the polyps retracted ?



Thanks


Brian.

[edman]

Nice one Reefer!We all do things silghtly different.Public aquariums have nitrate levels of up to 200 ppm with no ill effects.I myself feed my tank daily,do water changes weekly,and export phosphates thru coral cuttings etc.I too have a tang,a red sea Sohal,in a 50 gal tank.....Feeds very well,not a bully,or any flighty behavour displayed,just cruses around on the look out for food.Perfect!Fish and corals are very adaptable and as long as changes happen slowly,usually no harm will come.....if it works for Mushroom,who are we to judge?.....Nice tank mate,thanks for reading,Dave

[Mushroom]

Nearly 5 months since my last update so here is the latest full tank pic (don't hold your breath):

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/fulltank.JPG

Nothing new was added to the tank at all in the past 3 months as I was away for most of that time and the tank have suffered a bit as a result. Metal halide was only on for brief periods and a crab loved to tumble corals onto one another, of course without me re-arranging them back. The powder blue tang sadly did not recover from white spot it got from dealer's tank and the salifin tang was injured by the crab and never looked the same again. You can see from the "seaweed tree" in the left hand side of the picture how fast they can grow without something to munch on them constantly. I have now got a Kole tang and it is already relishing the fresh salad.

Despite of that all corals are still thriving:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/mushroom19sd.JPG

This incredible Florida ricordea rock has been there for some 7 months now and even that gorgonian has continued to live even with my no feeding regime. They are fascinating to watch as their white feathery polyp would retract one at a time to their mouth when feeding whatever unknown substance that they are doing.

This Montipora cap was bought at the same time as the Ricordea and here is what it looked like before:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/montipora3.JPG

Here is what it looks like now:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/montipora4.JPG

Must say it is extremely robust as it had been pushed down into a Fungia by the crab and only had minor bruises to show.

Finally, the monster growing Seriatopora that seems to thrive in most people's tank:

Its size 8 months ago:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/seriatopora1.JPG

Its size now:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/seriatopora.JPG

Again I MUST EMPHASIS anyone new to the hobby reading this should not follow my unconventional method. I have been keeping marines for over 10 years and tropicals many years before that. There is a certain "learning path" that everyone has to go through before they are experienced enough to know what works for them and what doesn't.

[ziggy]

Hi Mushie,

When you were away for 3 months, did anyone add your calcium supplements to your tank ?

Just that without that and also no strong lighting, it's amazing how well the corals have grown http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif What do you attribute to this ?


Cheers


Ziggy

[kim]

Thx for the new pikky ! Looks very nice,

kim

[bunglehaze]

looks good mushroom! I would like to find out more about your water change methods as at the moment I do similar (although not a zero change, but very occasionally)

cheers
leigh http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[andrew liddell]

Mushroom i know im not your best friend right now, but what is the metal halide buld your using?

Because i have simillar polop extention under a 5000k lamp which produced 22,000 lumins.

[Lisa Page]

Mushroom,

Thank you for posting some more pictures http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The tank really does look great, and whoa, that seaweed tree is monstrous! Any idea what type of algae it is?

BTW does the tank receive any natural sunlight?

Oooh and one last question, how is that wonderful red tunicate thingy getting on. I understand that these are REALLY difficult to keep in the average aquarium.

Regards

Lisa

[Mushroom]

Ziggy of course I was not completely away for 3 months, I did come home every weekend to do the usual evaporation top-up etc. You probably noticed I was on this board only at weekends during that time http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Again, when I said actinic mainly it does not mean it receive no metal halide at all. Apart from weekends I think it does receive several hours of halide a day.

Bunglehaze not sure what you mean??

Andrew no problem there even though we seem to be at each other throat a lot here I am sure we will all probably become best mates if we were to meet in person. Not sure what brand of bulb my halide has apart from 10k as it is still using the original bulb that came from the halide, and the halide was bought from T & M made by a Far Eastern Company called A-TEC.

Lisa no idea what species the "seaweed tree" is or I would not have called it that name http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif The tank does not receive natural sunlight. No idea if that particular tunicate is still alive as it is so dark in that corner and even that picture had to be taken under flash then even without the tree. It probably is still ok as I could just about see 3 small yellow sea squirts around that area.

Oh and thanks for the nice comments Kim & all.

[ziggy]

Hi Mushie,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ziggy of course I was not completely away for 3 months, I did come home every weekend to do the usual evaporation top-up etc. You probably noticed I was on this board only at weekends during that time Again, when I said actinic mainly it does not mean it receive no metal halide at all. Apart from weekends I think it does receive several hours of halide a day.[/b][/quote]

OIC, sorry from your prev posts in reefs I thought you'd been away for 3 months as in not at home at all http://www.ultimatereef.com/ibv3/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif



Cheers


Ziggy

[Mushroom]

The mushie tank has now passed its first birthday and is 14 months old now, nothing much has changed apart from adding a Maxijet 1100 as more and more SPS are now in the tank. A pseudochromis porphreus has been in residence for a few months now and just added a Coral Beauty yesterday. And yes folks not a single water change or feeding has taken place ;)

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/halftankss.JPG

[Preds]

Looking good Mushie. Love that acro top left (the same one as on the other thread in Reefs, I presume.)

[tufty711]

this tank is truly amazing and very natural.

A cedit to you for experimenting to push the hobby further.

[Martyn]

Interesting set up and methods and things looks good Mushroom.

As to the Acropora with a lot of polyp extension.
(quote Mushroom As to that hairy acro, I thought that species is usually that hairy?? )

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/tang2sd.JPG

I have a Acropora species a bit like this and growing out frags from it and it/they do have a large amount of polyp extension 24/7 I have noticed it does have greater polyp extension under 150 MH but still has a lot of polyp extension under 400w MH.

Regards
Martyn

[Mushroom]

Martyn interestingly since I moved my main powerhead to blow more or less directly at that hairy acro direction it has gone far less hairy and looks more like an acro now. I think it does not like the flow as it is a very thin stem species but I like its look now. :D

[DemLotCrew]

Hi mushroom ,where are you and any chance of a visit? I would love to see the tank as like you said those pictures dont do the tank any justice, and i have alomost gone down the same path as you, with the water changes anyway.

Regards

Andrew

[tufty711]

have u considered taking off the skimmer?
it may leave more living organisms in the water for food.

just a thought

ant

[Garry thomas]

:blink: :wacko: :huh: Still cant get my head around your idea's mushy, but they are working , so who knows? :unsure:

[spk]

Mushie,
This is amazing, I thought that every one did water changes. I am now in the process of setting up my second tank and so far have not done any water changes. I do the normal topups but nothign else.

I am curious to your filtration that you use? Currently have a trickle filter on a 5X2X2 and have ordered a replacemetn sump to switch over to a DSB and algea scrubber. Any thoughts.

If you first tank is as old as what I can work out are you using a trickle on it?

I do however feed my tank but like the sound of not feeding. How long before you added first fish. Would love to understand the no-feeding idea a little more.

Steve

[Mushroom]

Hi Spk if you feed your tank then you have to do water changes as food is the No.1 source of pollution and I am not talking just nitrates and phosphates but the many other chemicals that are in food.

Yes my first tank was first set-up using external filter feed into a small trickle filter and there were live rocks in the tank too. It is still going strong after over 10 years but now it only has live rock has its sole filtration.

Only a handful of fish such as psedochromis, centropyge, some tangs, dragonets and possibly more can be kept in a reef tank without feeding.

Hope that helps!

[Garry thomas]

Call it what you want (experiance ect) but i call it neglect and luck :unsure: i think :(

[Mushroom]

Guess time for an update as so much has changed over the past 2 months. Since the tank is now geared towards Acropora exclusively, a lot of new equipment has been installed:

Tunze Stream 6110 in place of the Rio 1700
Deltec Fluidized Calcium Reactor PF509
Deltec T5 actinic tubes powered by Arcadia remote ballast in place of the Marine Blue tubes.
An extra 150W halide at same place as present halide, which means 300W halide effectively (installed today):
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/light.JPG

I now use the following additives in place of the Seachem stuff:

Salifert Bio Coral mixed with Kent Zooplex, was going to add about 1ml each everyday but got lazy and is now more like twice a week.
1 spoon of Kent Turbo Calcium added to top-off water
10ml of Korallin Magnesium+ added couple of times a week
Tropic Marin Bio Strontium once in a while
Reef Evolution Combi San once in a while
Kent Pro Buffer dKH once in a while

The following fish is still in the tank:

Coral Beauty - extremely active and fat
Strawberry Fish - extremely active and fat
Lawnmowner Blenny - added 2 weeks ago extremely active and fat

Here is a picture taken today:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/fulltank8.JPG

[craigandsimon]

looking good mushy,

but i think u need to change your thread title to : plenty of deltec here :P

[Mushroom]

You mean the Fungia? Gave it to RichG couple of months ago. Hold tight your seat for a massive update tomorrow.

[Mushroom]

3 months since the last update and the record summer heat has done some serious damage. Quite a lot of acropora was killed by the deepwater Bali corals going RTN due to the heat. As a result the tank now has:

An Aquamedic Mini-cooler
Changed the lighting to a single 250W
A thermometer! ;)
3 Maxijet 1200 on a Natural wavemaker in addition to the Tunze stream, turnover is now something like 85x!

All the fish are still alive and active as before even though they have now not been fed for god knows how long.

Here are some latest shots:
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora72sd.JPG
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora71sd.JPG
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora70sd.JPG
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/fulltank11sd.JPG

[Garry thomas]

Mushy so are you feeding now or not? i read on the other post that you do, is this correct. If so good on you m8, your fish will appreciate it.

[Mushroom]

Ah don't confuse the legendary mushie tank with the wrong way round tank. The mushie tank is still self-sustained and has never ever been fed anything apart from zooplex/marine deluxe for the acorpora and an orange juice accident early in its life.

[ukreefer]

Hi Mushie
No disrespect or anything mate but anybody can spend tones of money every week on corals and have an alrightish tank but its the keeping them alive that I tend to try and get right, lets see what you have alive this time next month.

Regards Dan

Edited to say

The last 3 acros in your pictures all look rather sick to me.hopefully wrong but doubt it

[Garry thomas]

Originally posted by Mushroom@Sep 27 2003, 16:18
don't confuse the legendary mushie tank
As jim royale would say, legendry my arse. :lol:


instead of just buying acro's, why not frag and grow on from a small piece to a large colony, much more of an achievment, something to be proud of. in case your wondering, what they look like, take a look at my acro's. most grown, not bought ;) :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

[Mushroom]

Don't you know frags are widely known to be far hardier and easier to keep than wild colonies? Besides, I don't like using superglue or epoxy so they will just get knock down by snails and crabs.

[ukreefer]

Hi Mushie
I think you missed Gary point, what he is saying is that it would be a good idea to try frags as they will be far easier for YOU to keep ALIVE than the wild colonies you keep killing.
Do you not think it would be a good idea for you to leave the corals in the shop so that someone with a bit more experiance could buy them at least then they would have a chance of survival,once you have mastered the art of keeping the EASIER frags alive move onto the wild colonies.
Your trying to run before you can walk mate, remeber you have come from keeping mushrooms of which everybody knows could live in toilet water.

Regards Dan

[Mushroom]

Alternatively, I could just use some pictures of some German website and pretend them to be my tank. :rolleyes:

[hojo]

In Belfast we have problems getting acro's, maybe if you had problems getting them you would be a bit more carefull with them.

[Garry thomas]

Originally posted by ukreefer@Sep 27 2003, 20:46
it would be a good idea to try frags as they will be far easier for YOU to keep ALIVE than the wild colonies you keep killing.

Your trying to run before you can walk mate, remeber you have come from keeping mushrooms of which everybody knows could live in toilet water.

Regards Dan
fwiw i visit german websites, but not to look at fish tanks :lol:

[JasandJules]

I wonder if we could persuade the LFS not to sell mushie any wild colonies...

Then he can spend money on as many frags as he wants without killing wild caught specimens..

Mushie, money is not the answer to a good reef tank mate, taking the time to learn and use than knowledge to keep things alive is.

[Mushroom]

I don't know where the idea of me keep killing wild colonies come from:

1. It was the summer heat RTN which killed most of them, beforehand some acros have been in my tank for over a year.

2. None of the acros are really wild colonies, they are all aquacultured in Fiji or Bali.

3. I do have some frags and yes they are alive but so what?

[ukreefer]

Hi Mushie
Yes mate they are aquacultured but you will find this is done in the sea, thus making them wild colonies :P

Regards Dan

[chriskirby101]

"some acros have been in my tank for over a year"

A year is not a long time in reef keeping. I have corals that i have been keeping for 6 years plus and have fragged hundreads of times.

I'n the last 3 years i've only purchased Er 5-6 coral pieces and every single on of the has been fragged, the rest are swapped with onther people who have the ability to make corals thrive, not just dump em in a tank, take some pictures then boast about there "new method".. You sir are a fool..

We should all be giving somthing back to the hobby not just taking from it.



Chris

[DemLotCrew]

oh mushy you sold out, how sad.

[Mushroom]

Chris how could I have acros longer than a year bearing in mind I only started keeping them a year or so ago? :blink:

I have corals and fish for 10 years+ too so what? It is not how long you do it but how you do it.

[SPS Hoover]

Originally posted by Mushroom@Sep 28 2003, 21:38
Chris how could I have acros longer than a year bearing in mind I only started keeping them a year or so ago? :blink:

I have corals and fish for 10 years+ too so what? It is not how long you do it but how you do it.
Mushy

It is not how long you do it but how you do it.

Yet we still don't beleive you know how to do it.

Regards

[Garry thomas]

ditto :)

[narthur]

Mushroom...i think its time you had an OPEN DAY a day where we can come and meet and see the tank and your methods as i'm interested to see up front the real results of the MUSHIE way...Look forward to it..nic B)

[chriskirby101]

Anyone could say "i've kept corals and fish for 10+years" and every week replace them.

What I object to is the way you keep telling everyone who bothers to listen how great your methods are and think we should all respect you. How can I respect someone who does not take even simple precautions to stop corals being killed because he let his take over-heat.All you had to do was watch the weather on the morning and turn the halides off for the day, put them on by hand in the evening.

You can't even put a tank the right way round...



How many frags have you put back into the hobby?
How many corals have you killed over the years?
How many newbies have you screwed up with your bad advice?

[reefer110]

Dont fall for it Chris!!!! :o he just likes to have an arguement, dont give him one and he might go away. :)

[chriskirby101]

"don't give him one" oo-er missus!

[J I M]

Well I have just read that from start to finish and interested to see the way it has evolved :) ;) !!

I do have to agree with some of the things you are trying Mushie as I think it is possible to not do water changes if the uptaken elements are being replaced and also to not feed the fish if they are certain types as you have stated, although I was alarmed at the thought of three Surgeonfish in a 48" tank. I see they have now gone and in hindsight would you have them again in a tank that size?

I think we all need to be responsible in this hobby especially when posting on here to give out good advice and hold up our hands if we *&^% up. To keep harping on about it being the summer temperatures fault and not yours that you lost your SPS is lame to say the least :angry: . The many lights that are needed on a reef tank not to mention the pumps etc which also add heat mean in a small body of water we all face a near constant battle with temperature. Added to this is of course the annual rise in ambeint room temperature (unless you have air con?) due to the summer months. Warmer nights mean less heated is dissapated when the lights are off without cooling methods and so the eventuality is a warmer tank and in some cases a much wamer tank. So you know the lights etc produce heat and you know the summer is coming so perhaps doing something about it beforehand might have saved you a lot of grief on here but more importantly some wonderful corals. Are you making any plans how to avoid a wipe out again or are you restocking with SPS and will see what comes :wacko: ? Or are you just going to ignore this post :o ?

[Mushroom]

Jim can't believe you read this thread from start to finish and yet miss the bit where I say I now have a chiller. Don't forget we had a record temperature last summer, the RTN was only triggered by couple of days of extreme temperature, add to that the fact that some of them were Bali deepwater acro which are used to much cooler temperature.

Chris what I mean by I have corals and fish 10 years+ I mean I have the same corals and fish 10 years+.

[SPS Hoover]

Chris what I mean by I have corals and fish 10 years+ I mean I have the same corals and fish 10 years+.

He just replaces them every 2 months and they do make a nice white rockery in garden.

[Preds]

Bali deepwater acro

There was a Borneman post a few weeks ago saying they can't really be considered deepwater at all. They occur deeper than those Acros normally collected for the aquarium trade, but they occur in areas with lots of other Acropora. They started being collected by divers who were collecting other corals from deeper down. I think the figure quoted was 15 metres below sea level.

[Mushroom]

Preds before we get too technical I am well aware of Borneman's post where he more or less says it is all a marketing ploy. Anyway, I did saw a thread by Cquarium's Adam where he said they do best in lower temperatures.

[Garry thomas]

Originally posted by Mushroom@Sep 30 2003, 21:10


Chris what I mean by I have corals and fish 10 years+ I mean I have the same corals and fish 10 years+.
so where's the tangs gone then?

[J I M]

Good to get a reply from you Mushroom, perhaps my concentration waived a bit reading it all hence I missed the bit on the chiller, glad to hear it though hopefully enable you to control the heat next summer :) ?

What about the Surgeonfish then do you still advocate them in a 48" tank?

[reef boy 2002]

hey mushie

why not just invest in these at least they wont die in ur thank that way
ull not kill any live 1s

http://store6.yimg.com/I/marinedepotlive_1760_3980

yea and were as the tangs gone

reef :D :D :D :D :D :D :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :) :) :) :) :P :P :P :

[fuzed]

you can now get those at reef encounters in iver mushie... an there not gonna cost you a third of the acro price! :)

[Mushroom]

Contrary to ukreefer prediction this piece is still very much alive after one month, in fact it has started to show feeding tentacles at night which is rather rare for this species:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora77sd.JPG

In addition, the following piece which is very similiar to SimonH's infamous acro is also growing very fast in the mushie system:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora78sd.JPG

[sparky]

Originally posted by Mushroom@Oct 26 2003, 12:58
Contrary to ukreefer prediction this piece is still very much alive after one month, in fact it has started to show feeding tentacles at night which is rather rare for this species:


I have a Acropora humlis and has always extended its polpys at night most acropora do.dont get were the rare bit comes from.

And that stag looks nothing like simonh staghorn :lol:

Other then that they look ok, nice shades of brown you have :rolleyes:

[Garry thomas]

Originally posted by sparky@Oct 26 2003, 13:52
nice shades of brown you have :rolleyes:
Mushy is that the piece you got from stm?

[e98gawthma]

Bach tracking a bit mushy. on a post u did ages a go, u showed a side view of u tank with the halides on brackets,
are these just normal shelf barckets or r they the propper halide wall brackets. i ask as i am wanting to get a simmilar halide set up.

[Garry thomas]

;)

[Garry thomas]

hello mc fly mushy ;)

[Mushroom]

I got someone put that bracket up and I am pretty sure he bought it in a DIY store. It is very strong as my old halide is very heavy.

Sean too many questions I don't know where to begin, I only got a little brain afterall as Doc Rabbit says.

[Garry thomas]

Mushy is that the piece you got from stm?


Was this to complicated as well mushy?
why post threads, if you cant be bothered to answer? especially simple ones :huh:

[Mushroom]

Garry which piece do you mean and what do you mean? Yes one of them is from XXX but not bought on that night if that's what you mean.

[Garry thomas]

Thanks mushy, how do you find the colours, are they better than when purchased or going duller in colour?

[Mushroom]

The mushie tank is still running strong and every single fish are still fat and alive with no feeding or water changes. Not much has changed as most of the new stock are now put into the wrong way round tank as the mushie tank is more or less full up with acropora. Here are some latest pics:

This piece was bought at the infamous STM meeting, it was put in the wrong way round tank for a while before the butterfly decided to rip it apart, well has recovered a lot since being in the mushie tank for couple of months:

20/9/03 when first bought:
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora62sd.JPG

22/2/04
http://www.ultimatereef.net/photopost/data/501/156acropora101sd-med.JPG

This piece is a survivor of the summer RTN incident, very interesting colour changes:

5/7/03
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora41sd.JPG

22/2/04
http://www.ultimatereef.net/photopost/data/501/156acropora102sd.JPG

This is a side shot of a branch of that big "Simon G look-alike" piece, you can hopefully see how much it has grown:

26/10/03
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~mokkil/files/acropora78sd.JPG

22/2/04
http://www.ultimatereef.net/photopost/data/501/156acropora103sd-med.JPG

[Garry thomas]

Mushy it's looking good my friend :thumbsup:

[pomme]

got any new pics, and how the hairy acro doing?