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I have recently qualified padi open water and am looking into what gear to get.
i am wondering what 1 st , 2nd stage and octopus you guys use or recommend. i know there are supposedly no bad sets of regs but surely there is good and then GOOD !!!!
any impartial advice would be appreciated!
paul
philworrall
02-01-04, 19:44
Paul,
The fisrt thing to do is to decide where you are going to dive.
If it is in the UK then you have some big bills coming (actually this is regardless of where you are diving, it is all reletive like "fish" and reef tanks).
Once you decide on places to dive then select a list of equipment to suit.
The most important component is the regulator. You really depend on this and while they are all safe the more you spend the better the quality (note not necessarily more safe). After this it is down to comfort and the bank balance. Oh yeah, dont forget PEER PRESSURE. Buy what you are happy with and if you can try out your club mates equipment before you buy all the better.
I was lucky having a dive shop and could try out all the brands and believe me the most expensive is not always the best.
Go for what suits you and your pocket.
Hope this helps. If not PM me and I will try and advice more
cheers
As Phil says 'it depends on where you are planning to dive', if its in this country and you are planning to dive regually join a club ( note PADI, BSAC ans SAA all run clubs so no favoritism ;) ). Then your fellow members usually will let you try their kit (maybe in a pool but better than nothing), then decide the kit you need.
Haydn
Paul,
It also depends on your kit configuration, some regs can come over either sholder. This will allow you to have one reg comming over each shoulder this is useful if you dive with twin tanks, somthing you may consider at a later date. Some regs are designed to be used in cold water some are not. Some regs work better at depth than others. It will all depend really on what sort of diving you intend to do. :blink:
Hi Paul I was doing much the same kind or research myself when I found this review by diver magazine.
diver.net (http://www.divernet.com/equipment/0401regtest2.htm)
the oceanic alpha 7 wins hands down. even better they tested it agains £400+ regs as well and it came out near the top. Seems odd but if it's true you can save a packet on your regs and spend the money on a computer/fins etc.
Does anyone have any personal experiance with this first stage/reg and would you agree. i would like to hear from someone as this sounds a bit to good to be true.
I have already bought a oceanic 3mm wetsuit and boots and the quality seems pretty good for £80/£25 but obviously regs is a completly different kettle of fish.
Roddy
Frogfone
It really depends on what you are using them for. If you plan on doing UK diving then cold water regulators are probably best. I would also check what brands your local shops sell since sending them around the country to get them seviced could be a pain. Also if you use them regularly then cost of servicing could be an issue.
I use Apex regs (both the TX100 and ATX200) both of which I like and are cold water rated but they have a habit of breathing a bit wet upside down. They are also only about £40 to service which is helpful when you have 2 sets.
The best place to post for views on these regulators would probably be divernets equipment forum.
HTH
Hi Spottydog
To be honest i don't know if I will be buying regs till much later now as several people have mentioned it's not worth it for 2 holidays a year due to the cost of servicing Etc.
I basically want get my own fins and mask before going back to the red sea in May and an underwater digital camera. If by some miricle i have spare cash after this then my own dive computer would be next.
Reg's and bcd would be last as I have not decided wether to get seperate or and intigrated BCD. Planning to do my AOW in the UK before May, so as you say that would affect which reg to go for as well if I wanted to do UK diving. The Alpha 7 was aparently OK in cold water just not fresh cold water. I don't know what differance it would make other than having a lower temp?.
Cheers
Roddy
Holding out on Regs would probably be a good idea since it may not be cost effective and hiring will give you a chance to try out different makes.
Mask, fins and snorkel are a good fist buy. Make sure you get open fins and booties as they can then be used in the UK plus if you're doing shore dives abroad you are less likely to hurt your feet treading on something.
Cameras are always fun and digital prevents the annoyance of getting home & spending a fortune on processing to find most of the shots are no good (done it plenty of times myself). We have the Sony Cybershot which is quite expensive as cameras go but the housing is less than £200 and rated to 40m.
If you have enough money a computer is very useful. Buy one with Nitrox capabilites as this is something you are likely to use in the future and it doesn't cost much more for these computers.
I think the not cold freshwater is probably due to fresh water getting much colder than the sea in winter too.
Have fun doing your AOW
Anne
JasandJules
09-01-04, 12:30
IMO best things to buy right away are masks, snorkels and fins. Agreed as above, get the fins with boots, they are better. You also need a comfie mask or else the whole diving experience is ruined, and your own fins you get used to how much effort is required to move.. Then BCD so you can get used to it, learn how to control it a lot better than guessing with hired kit (I imagine, we bought our kit when we were learning so have only used our own). Then the wetsuit, dependant on where you will be diving. Then the computers. Using your own Dive Comp also makes life easier, again, you get used to it, we bought ours out in Mali whilst we were there, soo much cheaper than UK prices.. Regs we were told not to bother with due to maintenance.. Though I must confess I like the idea of my own reg/octopuss so I know where it has been... Hope that makes sense
Jas
Hi Guys
I've pretty much decided on the mask and fin's anyway but I would like to try them for fit first.
already have oceanic 5mm pull on booties the fins will be mares quatro avanti's as there resonably priced and I've not heard anything bad about them. Mask will most likely be a cressi big eyes or one of the similar masks appearing from other manufacturer's.
after lots and lots of research the camera will be an olympus c750 because olympus make there own housings that are really cheap. camera is £299 from amazon. housing about £85 from various US stores.
I will definatly buy a computer before a bcd/regs however as the old square profile tables seemed a bit dodgy and i would like a record of my whole dive holiday when i come back to download to pc. suunto vytec, cressi archimedes and oceanic verso pro are all candidates as they have 50 dive memory and can download to PC.
I agree with your reason for your own regs as the ones we hired where complete SH** mines freeflowed half the time and was unusable inverted. to me this is the most essential piece of equipment for your survival so it's not something you want to be less than 100% confidant about.
The BCD was just a bag of air with straps. it gave me no trouble all week so I will leave it till last.
My crappy mask on holiday nearly ruined the whole thing for me as it constantly pressed against the bottom of my nose and made it incredible tender all week ( and we where only doing 1-2 dives a day). A piece of £30 dive gear nearly ruined what was otherwise a great week.
Any feedback on experiance with the above kit would be welcome as it could save me a costly mistake.
Cheers
Roddy
chris&jess
10-01-04, 20:40
Hi Frogfone! Just a few thoughts from a keen diver...
I will definatly buy a computer before a bcd/regs however as the old square profile tables seemed a bit dodgy
I would certainly agree that a computer is very worthwhile (IMO - I'd recommend against wrist ones, as they are easier to lose, get obscured by gloves in cold water, and don't monitor air), however I would be very careful relying on them to calculate dive plans. I know that the divetables are conservative (meant to cover all divers safely, whether 18 or 108 years old), and were based on animal/military experimentation as opposed to Joe Public, BUT the important fact is that their conservatism means they are safe. Divers with computers are often tempted to live on the edge of the calculations, relying on their deco advice, deco stops etc, and unfortunately these "alarms" are not as conservative. As a former A&E doctor (now a surgeon), I had to send several people (including instructors) to Aberdeen for recompression because they relied too much on their computers whilst doing multilevel dives. My suggestion would be to buy a computer (I use the Suunto Cobra, but there will be newer ones on the market now), but still remember to base your overall dive on the recommendations from the tables - I have never heard of or come across anyone who has required recompression when sticking to tables as an overall guide. I would also agree that computers are potentially great for documenting your dives on your PC - I've never bothered despite all good initial intentions <_<
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Mask - A very personal piece of equipment... I don't think others' experiences are necessarily transferrable simply because we all have differently shaped faces (especially me :ph34r: :P ). I love my Oceanic mask which has really soft seals, and a large field of vision.
Snorkel - Whatever you like... doesn't really matter, and you'll rarely use it anyway. Scubapro does a handy one which folds in half, so you can fit it in your BCD pocket. I'd probably advise against anything that snaps to your mask strap.
Fins - Mares Avanti Quattros are design classics. Highly recommended, and no longer break the balance.
Octopus/Regs - I use the Scubapro S600 on an MK20. They don't come cheap, but the S600 is the easiest breathe I've ever come across. It comes to the fore at depth especially. Ultimately, IMHO the quality of your regs should not be compromised by the rarity of your diving - comfortable breathing is priceless, and prolongs your airtime.
BCD - Again, a very personal piece of equipment. I decided against an integrated weight belt, because it's a nightmare getting them on a 'plane. I'd suggest always renting these seperately. It'll save the contents of your checkin suitcase, and avoid customs telling you that they are recognised weapons if onboard! Regarding the BCD - whatever fits comfortably and has lots of pockets! :) One thing to remember when chosing a BCD however, is to check how it attaches to your tank. I find the Scubapro ones really annoying to use (the metal buckle thing that you have to snap on without squashing your fingers). Velcro-based ones are probably easier to use, but last less long, and don't provide as good a grip on the tank as the Scubapro one above, resulting in the base of the tank banging against the back of your thighs whilst you're swimming :angry: .
Camera - Buy the very best you can afford. There's nothing more frustrating than advancing in a hobby, and then finding your equipment hinders your progress. Consider it an investment to last. Try thumbing as many as you can, and hire different models if possible, just to get a feel for them. Again, there's nothing more frustrating than finding a beautiful subject for a shot, and then frightening them off because your gloved hand could not manage the small buttons! This, of course, is less of an issue in the warm waters of the Red Sea B) . Furthermore, try and buy one that is flexible for the future - ie. one you can add equipment to (lenses & strobes especially), in case you do want to advance. I love underwater photography. I've not had any experience with the Olympus I'm afraid. Oh, and the housing of course is the most important part of the entire equipment - your entire investment rests on the reliability of the seals.
All the best, Roddy - I hope this is of some help ;)
Chris
Thanks Chris
some good advise esp about being to reliant on computers as they can fail. Don't know if i agree about going for console over wrist however as I don't have regs at the mo' so carrying the console would be cumbersome. One of the new hockey puck designs with a wrist strap would be the best compromise at the mo' as they fit either.
I don't agree with you about the camera however. Digital camera's are advancing so fast that what is cutting edge today is mearly mediocre in two years time. better to get a half decent camera now and then dump the whole system in two years time and start again. Obviously strobes can be retained as these now slave off fibre optics.
If we where talking film based cameras I would agree as the price of housings etc is extortionate. I can have a whole 4M digital setup for £400, less than it would cost for the housing for my Eos.
I'm not trying to start a flame war about film Vs digital either, but lets face it film will disappear from all but a few specilist applications within the next 5 years so there is no point investing in an expensive film systems and the digital markets is evolving so fast that it's to early to lock in to one system. Although the Eos 300d was tempting if not for the price of the housings.
Cheers
Roddy
chris&jess
11-01-04, 03:52
Roddy,
Yeah - I agree that a console isn't much good if you don't have an octopus yet.
And yeah - I totally agree with you regarding digital cameras. I was talking about the traditional film camera which is definitely worth spending on in my opinion (although I do take your point about digital cameras taking over the market soon - 2003 marked the first year that traditional film cameras were outsold by digital in the terrestrial camera market). I guess if you are talking digital, it would be best to go with a brand that is committed to making casings to fit future camera models in their line. Would then mean you might not have to buy a new housing every time you wanted to upgrade - they are so expensive. I must say that I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to underwater photography, however, and don't have much experience at all with digital options. You may have noticed on some of my threads that I do incessantly grumble about not being able to put a photo of my tank/fish/tankpest on the forum :) I'm looking into buying a digital camera at some point soon.... for overland use :P
Have you done any research into underwater digital videos, Roddy? This was my other thought instead of getting a digital camera, because movement underwater is so important.
Chris (not wanting to change the subject of the thread of course...)
chris&jess
11-01-04, 04:05
Roddy - just another thought.
I assume that you'd agree that the traditional film camera has basically peaked in terms of quality. Thus, if one were to buy a top quality trad camera now, it's unlikely to be dated in terms of picture quality in future years.
This brings me to a thought probably worth considering if you're thinking about a camera (but not if you're committed to digital I guess).
If digital does take over the market as predicted, then trad film cameras will increase in price & value just as digital camera costs will decrease. Look at the mechanical watch for example - used to be dirt cheap whereas digital ones used to be the expensive ones; now a reputable brand will cost you a grand (at least, and that's if you forget about precious metals) and conversely you can pick up a half decent digital watch for 30 quid. Mechanised things are being phased out all over the place. Give it ten years - a Sea & Sea will be a valuable and perhaps irreplaceable thing, with a premium to pay for one of those "old style" photos ;)
All the best,
Chris
(IMO - I'd recommend against wrist ones, as they are easier to lose, get obscured by gloves in cold water, and don't monitor air),
I have a slight problem with this statement, I may be wrong but all computers have a wrist strap you may choose to strap it to your console or leg or whatever. Also if you add a halberd and clip it between the computer and your arm it is as secure as you can make it.
however I would be very careful relying on them to calculate dive plans. I know that the divetables are conservative (meant to cover all divers safely, whether 18 or 108 years old), and were based on animal/military experimentation as opposed to Joe Public, BUT the important fact is that their conservatism means they are safe. Divers with computers are often tempted to live on the edge of the calculations, relying on their deco advice, deco stops etc, and unfortunately these "alarms" are not as conservative.
I have been using a computer to plan my dives (air, Nitrox and Trimix) for many years and although I agree that tables are a conservative way of diving but they are only effective if the divers stick rigidily to the dive plan i.e if the go deeper and/or longer their profile has changed, unless they happen to have calculated and written the new parameters on their dive slates they are now up s**t creek without a paddle. Also the tables are american military and are based on experimentation on goats and pigs in the 1950s :o.
Conservatism doesn't always mean safe, I have seen a number of people suffer hits when and after they were diving using the tables to determine periods between dives although the computer suggested they didn't dive (yes that living on the edge).
I dive using a Suunto it has always been conservative for me and for deep/challenging dive I have a Aladin Air/nitrox as backup.
Haydn
Hi Guys.
as we are still talking about diving in general i don't think we are of topic (much).
Haydn - a 'HALBERD' are you fighting deep sea squid or something!!!! :D :D :D I take it you mean a lanyard. I agree with you about human error however a computer will always follow it's programing whereas humans tell little white lies or just plain forget things like how deep and for how long. a backup computer is a great idea as well as computers can screw up and when they do it's usually a big.
Chris - photographic "quality" peaked about 100 years ago with the large format camera ( 8" x 10" negatives) all the development in the last 100 years has been about conveniance. 35mm cameras are the best trade of between bulk and quality. med format is better quality but just not conveniant enough for most people. I own a pentax 6x7 camera and the quality makes 35mm look like 110. However a tripod is almost mandatory, it does not do TTL metering and you get 10 shots per film. so the conveniance is just to low for most users.
Now digital cameras bring a new level of conveniance in terms of speed, image cost and bulk storage at the cost of image quality. Digtal camera's are great as long as you don't want to blow the image up above 8 x 10 ( be honest how many pictures have you had enlarged to this size). The quality of digital will only improve. as you say 35mm quality has been static for years (but is still superior to most digital). However when your underwater being restricted to 36 shots is pretty limiting, digital does away with that.
Don't agree with you on the value of film camera's increasing (well not until there antiques) do a search on Ebay for Canon eos, nikonos etc. you will be shocked at the prices.
Also olympus housing's are actually pretty cheap. the RRP for the C750 housing is £129 and that's rate to 40M. you can get it on line for £85 + p+p.
olympus UW housings (http://cf.olympus-europa.com/consumer/digimg/series.cfm?id=UNDERWATER%20CASES)
I don't personally know much about UW video but Chris, one of the dive guides, when we where in the red sea was into video and had a sony pc1 with a housing. He showed us some of the stuff he had shot and as you say movement and light are so important in UW stuff that still images just never convay the true beauty of some subjects the way video can. The price however is in excess of 2K for a decent setup( so i'm told) and there is no cheap way you can dabble in it other than hiring the gear or doing a course.
Chris had also been a professional skydiving videographer so was well experianced in using camera's in extreme conditions. An enthusiastic amatuer might have less luck. P.M. Molly if you are really thinking about it as she talked to Chris way more than i did and actually borrowed his camera one day (the results where crap, sorry molly).
HTH
Roddy
chris&jess
12-01-04, 14:18
Hi Frogfone!
Yep - definitely a very good point regarding the limit to the number of photos you can take per dive... Very frustrating when you run out of film half way through a fantastic dive, simply because there's too much to photograph :angry: :( :blink: . I would have to agree that flexibility in the number of photos you can take would indeed by a massive advantage over trad film. I guess you would also be able to review shots underwater and delete as necessary if you come toward the end of a memo card...
2 grand :o :o :o . Maybe I'll stick to photos.
But then again, digital cameras can take short snippets of video.... :P
Roddy, I'm currently thinking about a terrestrial only digital camera. Maybe after using one on-land for a while, I might be tempted to try underwater too :huh: . Now you've got me thinking...
Ummm...perhaps we should return a little bit closer to the original chat -
When I bought my gear (non-photographic...) it was in Birmingham at one of the Dive shows. You could find things really cheap there, because there was a lot of end-of-line stuff and some shops were simply trying to clear stock.
Paul - before you buy, perhaps a Dive Show would be a good place to have a look. You'll see a great variety of options for any piece of equipment you care to mention. Any dive magazine advertises them...I think they occer either every four months or every six months in the UK...
Regards,
Chris
Hi guys
thanks for all the advice. i havent chipped in with any comments since starting the thread,but i certainly take on board all your comments.
My shopping list at present is starting to look like this
bcd cressi s114
regs apex atx 200 with atx40 octopus
computer Aladin air z nitrox
( mask, snorkel, fins and semi dry suit already purchased.)
apart from the expense what do you reckon !
i'm trying to get the best for my budget but think quality is paramount !
cheers,
paul
I don't know anything about that BCD but I'm sure someone else will.
Regarding the regs. Some people find the exhaust of the ATX causes bubbles in front of their face (I don't notice much difference between the the TX100's and ATX 200's I have) so if possible trying the TX and ATX range in a pool fist may be a good idea. Other than that they're wonderful regs.
I use the Aladin Pro Nitrox computer and find it very good. The air z has a similar layout. The only annocance I find with the Aladin is that you have to ask someone with a Suunto what the temperature was when you're back on the boat, the display I find very easy to read under water.
Have a wonderful time diving.
anne
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