Metal Halides The Hidden Dangers

[simon garratt]

Dear Moddypeeps. You might want to pin this for a while.


Firstly let me give you some history. Before I settle a long running issue I’ve had.

Picture the scene. You have a well established and very successful tank that’s been running on tube lighting for some time, even to the degree you can grow and maintain clams and a few hardier SPS. But time marches on and you decide its time to move to Halides so off you trot and get yourself some spanking new 250w 10000k units and plonk then on top, allowing for increased exposure, and gradual acclimatisation. Everything seems fine so during this time you also do a few more changes, i.e. addition of deeper sand layer, automated Kalk addition etc etc. Then bang, about two months down the line you start noticing that things aren’t doing as well as you’d expect, and within a few more weeks your starting to see signs of stress, i.e. bleaching tips and tissue recession in corals, mushrooms shrivelling, clams not doing so well. Tied to this is the general lack of life on the live rock and an increase in cyano outbreaks due to the gradual die off of smaller organisms. Within a month you’ve lost or given away/saved just about every coral, clam, in the system and are looking at a nearly sterile tank just housing some fish and rock. Reasons. Well in this case you could easily attribute the gradual decline and increasing difficulty in maintaining water conditions with old tank syndrome or possible breakdown of the sand bed especially considering the final milky session that sees you strip down the entire system…….Now skip a few months on and your looking at your newly fan dangled set-up, including deep sand beds, closed loops, massive circulation, skimming, etc etc, you think you’ve covered all the bases. So you introduce some new stock, and what survived your old tank crash (not forgetting to thank the baby sitters) and hey presto, your rocking and rolling.

The corals you have introduced start colouring up nicely to the degree you **** off the person that gave you them as his lights are more than twice as powerful than yours……yippee……success……………..

Now it starts again, very insidiously at first, i.e. the SPS slowly grind to a halt, and the tips start going pale, then die back…..Mmmmmmm, then you notice that its been 4 or so months and your coralline algae is still taking its time to take off, but it is getting there….sloooooowly. the odd thing is that your LPS corals are still fine, your fish, and any fluorescent green corals you have…but they are all still growing a bit slowly……Maybe its time to look at the bulbs and the chemistry, results, chemistry is fine apart from a low alkalinity, ah, ok I need to stat dosing a bit more to keep up with it all…..so, addition of Ca reactor, and Kalkstirrer……then things get worse, and before you know it you’ve lost all the tips on your SPS, Ok so I’m doing something wrong…maybe dosing too much Kalk, maybe pH shock over night, causing just a little too much stress…….Ok so maybe they lied about 250w BLV bulbs not needing lenses, so you pop out and get some 6mm thick toughened glass and pop some lenses up……ah, things seem marginally better, but still not quite right. Your LPS are fine, your clams are colouring up wonderfully, and even your coralline has taken off to a better degree at last. Maybe I need some new bulbs, as these ones might be faulty. So a quick call to BLV UK tech department and you arrange the return of your allegedly faulty bulbs…No faults found…new ones arrive and your away…..you cut back all of the lost tips on your Acro’s and they start healing over…..your on a winner.

Two months on…………

Tanks looking marginally better but you still cant get the acro’s to grow without the tips going after a week or so. Note none of the symptoms are sudden, just a gradual decline after an initial growth spurt, with the main trunks staying healthy……yet more pruning. several other reefers are bemused as to the causes as well......some saying chemistry, some saying ciculation, some saying preditors (small startfish), others saying its lighting.


Well to cut a long story short I finally got so pissed off I rang a few light manufacturers, and suppliers to get to the bottom of it including another call to BLV and only one person spotted the mistake after Id quoted all the combined part numbers down the phone…….


You cant use high pressure mercury ballasts with BLV bulbs but you can with other makes……..result ……..same light spectrum…… but increased par output and increased UV output to the degree it will cut strait through 6mm glass. BLV’s will only run properly on dedicated sodium or MH ballasts.

Well after a quick call to the massively helpful Rob at www.fastlight.co.uk where I got my original Lowbay units, I have three new SO/HQI ballasts on the way.

Now the reason I’m posting this…………………

Its taken a year of me blaming my own methodology, hunting for foreign objects/contamination in sand beds i.e. stray screws etc, insane bouts of water testing, differing methods of kalk addition, playing with lenses, plumbing, circulation methods and the like. To finally find the cause was hidden in the recesses of three MH units housing just the wrong type of ballast unit, which was only found by me quoting the part numbers of the components down the phone.

The symptoms are insidious to say the least as they are so subtle in appearance at first, the long term issues are that they can be the downfall and final collapse of what may already be a wonderful system, or hold back what should after one year be a thriving coralline encrusted new reef set-up. Remember my first tank and the gradual die off of the micro fauna as well leading to eventual system collapse.

So for all you DIY lighters out there, and users of older Lowbay units…….If your having probs, then check your ballast is a SO/HQI unit and not a Mercury unit……visibly to the eye there is no difference in the spectrum although the bulbs do seem bright. The bulbs start up the same and may well last just as long as those used with the correct ballasts, but the hidden dangers are there and the effects slow and painful for the animals under them.

I hope this may help some keepers who have struggled keeping SPS etc for an unknown reason…….


Regards

Si.


PS……Please note that I do ‘NOT’ hold Fastlight responsible for this in any way, as the units I bought were never specifically designed for aquarium use at that time (i.e. before Fastlight opened its subsidiary www.marine-lighting.co.uk (same site/company) I have spoken to Rob extensively over the last few days and he assures me that this subject was studied by them prior to undertaking marine lighting, hence ‘All’ subsequent marine dedicated Lowbay units house proper SO/HQI ballasts so present purchasers are in no danger. Those of you that have purchased Lowbay units from alternative sources should check your units for compatibility when using them in combination with BLV bulbs.

Fastlight cannot supply replacement SO/HQI ballasts unless the original units have come from them. But he will gladly offer advice where necessary. Replacement ballast can easily be obtained through various suppliers on the net such as Lampman.co.uk etc. however your first port of call should be the original supplier of the units if they were sold to you as acceptable for marine lighting. Please don’t phone Fastlight on a hunch, only if your units come from them and you know for a fact you need to replace a Mercury ballast. (usual warranty applies i.e. two years.) I’m sure Rob will be only too happy to help in these cases.


PPS Rob if your reading this.......Many thanks......your welcome for coffee anytime. :)

[keith hellyar]

Simon

Your story just proves how challenging the "art" of reefkeeping is and the fine line between success and failure. I guess your story has not finished yet and I would be very interested to hear how your tank improves once the new ballasts are installed.

I'm in the process of setting up a 5x2x2 and I purchased 2x250 lowbays from Rob just about the time he was setting up the marine lighting website. I'm relieved to hear that I shouldn't experience any problems. By the way, I echo your comments about Rob. I too found him extremely helpful.

I assume that your experience may also be repeated if bulbs are used for too long and gradually lose their kelvin rating. Definitely one to watch. Thats less of an issue now that BLV bulbs are getting cheaper but I have to confess that my current 4 foot system houses 2x150 halides that are now over 18 months old. I haven't changed them because I was planning a new tank. My 3 year old tank is showing subtle signs of decline which up to now I'd put down to the age of the system, the calcium reactor, the Kalc reactor etc etc. I clearly need to get my new sytem running soon.

Thanks for the story

Keith ( a fellow Southampton reefer)

[craigandsimon]

good post simon, makes you wonder m8. Hope your tank recovers nicely :)

[tuan]

SiG - how can you tell if the ballast is a high pressure mercury type or not, if you didn't buy the unit new from a specific manufacturer?

When you say other lamps are OK, do you mean that it's only BLV that has confirmed that it's NOT OK. Would other manufacturer have the same problem?

I have noticed a marked improvement when I switched to Arcadia lamps from BLV, but not sure if it's entirely down to the ballast/lamp incompatibility or the different colour temp (the new ones are 14KK).

Quite a few of my SPS colonies did turn to a strong green colouration from brown/tan originally, though it could simply be the corals have adapted in time to my system and brand of TLC.

[The Tangman]

as tuan says how can you tell? is there something written on the ballast to indicate?

[simon garratt]

Hi Tuan,

the part number of the Mercury ballast is pt172452 / Q250.609 and the manufacturer is vossloh schwabe........Other manufacturers may actually state the type ie 'high pressure mercury'

From the disscusions Ive had with various technical people it is only the BLV lamps that suffer problems when combined with these ballasts. however this is no guarentee. baring in mind its only the BLV that has built in UV protection i would hate to see the affects if used with an un-sheilded bulb such as an iwisaki (sp) its possible that it may put out massive doses......The thing to remember is that Using these ballasts has no visible effects on the colour temperature of the bulb itself, so its not possible to diagnose visually. the different frequency of the ballast is what causes the problems when used with MH bulbs instead of HPM bulbs. In a factory this will make no difference whatsoever although you may suffer premature striking problems later in the bulbs life, But for growing plants and lighting reef aquaria its a no no due to the way it alters the bulbs output. ie extreme par and UV output. Quite simply HPM ballasts were never desighned specifically for Metal halides, they do the job, but not to the degree of accuracy we reefkers require. SO/HQI on the other hand are desighned in conjuction with the metal halides power requirements in voltage regulation and frequency to maintain stable output.....

Interestingly, a 400w BLV bulb will also fire up and run with these ballasts........


I think that a cobination of very deep tank and high lighting distance might diguise this effect to some degree although how much i cannot tell, suffice to say at 12" from the water surface with two feet of water depth and a 6mm glass shield in place, frags still burn at the bottom of the tank whilst sat on the sand bed.

My inclination is that Green corals are protected to some degree better than blue/pink ones. the same appears true for mushrooms as well. ie they last alot longer before suffering damage. As to the effects on the microfauna im hazarding a guess that the exessive UV causes sterility/larval damage and eventual depletion of the population (bit like shoving them through a UV tube) hence the gradual and increasing barroness of the live rock (the undersides/shaded areas are fine).

Remember Im not urging everyone to rush and check their ballasts, only those who have persistantly had problems keeping corals alive under what should be ideal conditions chemistry wise. and those who are using Lowbay fittings from any source other than a dedicated marine outlet. (even then i would be carefull unless they have come direct from Rob at fastlight who is aware and avoids this situation.......other supplyers may not be aware........


Kind regards

Si. :)

[tuan]

Hm.. very interesting indeed.

My lights are driven by a s'hand ballast box which most probably contains the guts of some lowbay units. I know nothing of the origin of the units as it's third-hand information so it could well apply to me.

I did notice a marked difference when using a proper maxigrow ballast unit to the current one with BLV lamps so suspect there could be a problem. :blink:

On another note, I'm hoping to replace all mine soon with electronic units, especially after reading that the 400watt units actually consume something like 515-550watts ! :ph34r:

[uda]

Tuan,

It will say on the ballast usually for merc its HPMV (high pressure merc vap) or MV and for sodium normally HPS, SV, HPSV, LPSV and for Metal Halides MH, HQI, HID (danger this is often also used for sodium). Some ballasts say that they will do both IME unless they have a selector switch or are electronic do not pay any attention as they will not.

MH lamps are very weird they are basically like a runaway chain reaction being held in check (you hope) by the ballast. When the lamp starts the arc is struck so current flows and the gas gets hot, so it conducts better so it gets hotter, so it conducts better so it gets hotter……….BANG!

This is where the ballast steps in: first it controls the voltage and current supplied to start the lamp then it holds it stable to operate the lamp. So the ballast/lamp combination is of vital importance, get it a bit wrong and the colour/lamp life will be affected. Get it very wrong and it goes bang or won’t start at all.

A mercury vapour control set will normally run a MH lamp but the start-up voltage is normally a bit low and the operating voltage and current profiles are often not correct. If there is too much current the lamp will run with the arc too hot this does two things, 1 it kills the lamp quicker and 2 it makes uv light both of which are a bad thing! Mercury vapour lamps are very “unfussy” about their power requirements (cheaper ballasts) but MH bulbs are very fussy to say +_ 10% (MH) v say +_15 to 20% (MV). So an MV control set could read right on the specs but in real life it might be too unstable to be of use for MH.

So a MH may light in a Merc Vap control set but it is normally a really bad idea for our purposes.

A sodium vapour ballast will also normally run a MH but it will over-current the MH lamp and lower its life.

Then you have the “pulse-start” or “probe start” problem. Some MH bulbs like to be “pulse started” eg Ushio and Radiums some do not. Others (mainly USA) like to be “probe-started”. So the real answer is first pick you MH bulb then pick your ballast. The yanks use these codes on their bulbs: Probe starts M102 = 150w, M58 =250w, M59=400w. Pulse starts M81=150w, M138=250w, M35=400w. For Ushio look here and use these codes to figure out the ballasts Ushio codes (http://www.ushio.com/files/Aqualite%200802.pdf)

Sodium and Mercury vapour bulbs are often started at double to three fold their normal wattage MH bulbs will only take about 1.5 times so obviously the two types of ballast may not be interchangeable on this point alone.

In short you should always check with the MH bulb maker what kind of ballast their bulb would like and then use it.

Have a look on their websites and then use the 'M' ballast codes above to figure it out.

Andrew

[tuan]

Wow - excellent information guys, think I'll pin this up for a while!

[uda]

Tuan,

Just read your post- VERY good idea the electronic ballasts are the dogs...

Little heat, little wasted power, nice even startup, often hot restart ability, nice even running current-super duper!


Andrew

[simon garratt]

Andrew. Thanks very much for that input, You put it better than i could with my limited electrical knowledge.....

Interesting conversation with Harry Hird revolved around the fact that he still has problems with supplyers sending him Mercury ballasts for use with MH bulbs......he just sends them back and keeps arguing the toss with the supplyers. Its obvious that there is a problem here wherby cirtain componants appear to do the job so are used as a quick fix, or alternative. However this all comes to a head when these componants find their way into the more demanding and accuracy based world of reefing.

Just a shame that some manufacturers of complete units dont understand the word 'bodge' (that doesnt include you rob. :) )


Regards

Si.

[philworrall]

Hi Tuan, normal ballasts on flouros consume about the same energy (cost) as the tube itself so you are actually paying twice for your electricity. therefore making double the heat also.
With MH it is not quite as bad but still not good.

If you can source the new electronic ballast it will save both power (power = big bills) and heat.

I refer here to the heat problem MH users see in summer. Heat is generated from both the bulb and the ballast and is reflected in the water temperature if the ballast is in the tank hood.


HTH

Cheers

[steviezan]

Hi all, I have just checked my unit and I have a mercury ballast. I changed the bulb in december to a blv bulb. I had originally tried a radium 20k 400w bulb, this did not fire up and I assumed the bulb was faulty I tried another.... same problem; I changed the bulb to a blv and it worked, this bulb lasted till last week. I returned the bulb as faulty and now have a new one.
Yes since I have replaced this bulb in december I have noiced that my live rock has become somewhat "gungy" looking and coraline growth has slowed and I have had some dieback. I have been trying to correct this using alkalinity and calcium supplements, but it is taking a while........ I have only just started keeping sps corals but I have had a plating montifor several months that was bleaching in certain areas. I fragged it and it was o.k. for a while but then started again after recovering. This repeated for several months until I now only have a couple of small frags of this left. Water quality is fine, no problems. I thought I was just having problems with this particular coral. I have since added a few more sps corals but now I am starting to worry. O.k. just now but what will the situation be like next week etc.


Cut to the crunch I am going to replace the ballast unit, my question is as I am no electrician, is this an easy process to swap over? what about the starting gear? is the ballast unit all that needs to be replaced.

I to cannot refer back to the seller as I bought the unit second hand from a board member, who like most is probably unaware of the current problems.
Appreiate your advice

Stevie

[steviezan]

Bump,

anyone???

[Mrs Ziggy CGA]

Great post, could answer a few of our prob with home tank!

Thanks everyone :D

[simonm]

Using BLV's in Arcadia S3 lighting units, Im guessing the ballast is ok ?, can't check without completley taking the unit to pieces.

thanks.

[simon garratt]

Hi Stevie,

Yes the ballast is simple to replace, just a couple of wires.

Here is a link........Lampman MH ballasts.. (http://www.lampman.co.uk/javastuf/bindex.htm)

I would still call first to confirm the type though.


Regards

Si.

[mbeast]

If you can source the new electronic ballast it will save both power (power = big bills) and heat.


so where do we buy the electronic ballast from?

mark t

[tuan]

Two choices so far, both imports:-
a/ IceCap 400watts 220/240v are about $128 each, shipping for 4 was about $98 last time I asked.
b/ CoralVue units are 'enroute' into CoralCulture, not sure on pricing yet, but may be available soon hopefully.

[simon garratt]

Just a quick update.

Got three new MH ballasts deliverd this morning........ after being talked through the wiring by a very very patient Harry Hird, they are up and running........even better, the polyps are starting to come out on my acro 'stumps'.... :dance:


Just a quick note of appreciation to both Rob at Fastlight, and Harry for their help and support........you guy's are stars.......... :wub:




Regards to all.


Si.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[pbcunningham]

Interesting thread this is. I have noticed that some (actually quite a few) of my acros have stopped putting polyps out and as already stated I cannot find anything wrong chemistry wise.

I hace 2 halides over my system, one is a 400W unit which runs using a maxibright unit and the other is a 250W unit bought from fantasea.

As Im not a leccy and have no idea what i am looking for what is inside the unit and what does the ballast look like.

Hopefully I will find that the ballast will need changing, therefore removing all my efforts at finding the problem.

Thanks :thanx:

Peter

[simon garratt]

Hi Peter.

If you look inside, there will be three componants.

1. large square object.......the ballast itself. (the heavy bit)

2. a cylinder (the capacitor)

3. a small square box (the ignitor)


in some cases No 2 might be missing, just leaving the ballast and starter.......





I'll pop a pic of the culprit up later.


Regards

Si.

[steviezan]

Hi ,
Contacted Lampman today, they have informed me that I will need to replace ballast unit, capacitor, and starter unit; total cost 46 quid, no guarentee though unless, they build the unit, for an extra 10 quid they will put in a remote box and all I need do is connect to the lampholder. I will be able to remove the old starter unit, ballast, etc. At least the unit will be lighter!!!

Oh, and I will get a great deal of relief :D

Steviezan

[pbcunningham]

Hi Steviezan, just wondering why you have to replace the ballast unit, capacitor, and starter unit and not just the ballast. I too am going to check my halides and have a gut instinct that the ballast will be wrong.

Cheers

Peter

[steviezan]

Hi PB,
I told the guy at lampman that I had a mercury vapour ballast unit and that I needed to replace this to run the BLV 400w 20k lamp that I had. He agreed that the unit had to be replaced and he informed me that the other omponents would have to be replaced also. Knowing nothing about these things I agreed for him to go ahead. Has someone been leading me astray <_< <_< :angry:

Stevie

[pbcunningham]

Hi, I'm sure that the people at lampman are not trying to lead you astray, I was just asking as I will probably have to change mine as well.

Just wondering as why they all had to be changed when its the ballast which is wrong, I did not expect to have to replace the ignitor and capacitor as well.

I'll check mine at the weekend.

Peter

[simon garratt]

Hi Guys.

It depends on the make of the starter and capacitor........After fitting my Tridonic 'oglis 250' ballasts to the existing starter and capacitor, ive had no probs, Harry confirmed that the only difference between starters is how long they last 'just like tube starters need replacing once in a while'........I would say to get the ballasts first and see how you go........Call harry if your not sure, list the componants and he will tell you what you need. (01726 69552)

Suffice to say........if your running vossloh Schwabe starters your still fine...........In Harry's words Tridonic is a Merc, and Vossloh is a ford but both are compatible.......


Regards

Si.

[fuzed]

think I have the tridonic ballasts - marked up with usage for H Sodium or H Metal Halide. So I think im ok, but how long should a blv bulb last, mines been in since about november running at rouglhy 10 hours a day - and it looks like i've got a cyno bloom coming on the left hand side (the right hand side bulbs only been in a month). theirs bubbles coming off the live rock and some of the corals dont seem to be extending as much.

[aladdin]

Before you guys change your ignitor, can I suggest that you ask for a "timed" ignitor.

Scenario:
You are on holiday and your lamp packs up, the ignitor continues to strike your lamp. Heat builds up and melts the ignitor, then catches fire, house burns down and all corals and fishes nicely cooked.

A "timed" ignitor will attempt to strike the lamp for a period of time, hence its called a "timed" ignitor, up to a couple of minutes and then it cuts out and will not attempt to strike the lamp again until the power is switch off and then back on. So the worst it will do is to try and strike the lamp one a day, if your MH lights come on only once a day.

[IanJ]

Thought i would share this also with you guys. I had three 150W MH, pendant type used for shops etc. They were old, maybe 7 years or so, ballasts etc contained within the pendant. A few weeks ago one of them went up in flames big time. A check on the other units showed heat hardening of many of the connectors and wires. One of the other units had a connector that had just disintergrated leaving bare wires and a possible short and fire.
Might be worth checking the internals of your units every so often so as to keep an eye open for any possible fire risks.

[uda]

Aladdin,

Very good point, we have had this happen in our invert quarantine system when a bulb failed. It goes back to my 'cheap is not always best' rant. We knew that the quarantine system would never be on public display so we picked the cheapest lights we could find-it was a bad idea :angry:

They actually turned out to be very dear indeed, we run a reverse photoperiod in the quarantine building to use economy 7 so this all happened at night with nobody around. We were lucky, the lamp unit melted internally and tripped out the RCD breaker so we got away with it, but it could have been very nasty :(

Of course when we checked the instructions they do warn that we should replace faulty bulbs immediately as they could cause the unit to overheat. The bit I couldn't figure out was how you were supposed to know when a bulb was thinking of failing in the middle of the night so that you could change it first :lol:

Needless to say we changed all the units and the whole building's lifesupport/lighting/heating system is now alarmed and linked to a pager, a leason in how to turn a few £30 light units into £thousands :blush:

FWIW IME most lamp units designed for interior or domestic uses tend to have these safeguards already built-in, but most which are for outside or industrial uses do not. 'Good' ignitors either do a timed hit or a three strikes and you're out system. 'Good' ballasts have a thermal cut-out fitted which kills the power if they overheat, and all the electronic ones seem to have fail-safes built-in, some just about make tea for you :)

At the end of the day it's always best to check, especially if you do what we are all guilty of and use things for purposes for which they were never intended.

Andrew

[gheluvelt]

Hi guys good post
just checked my 400w vossloh schwabe........ballasts,it sais for high pressure mercury lamp OR metal halide ? so i am confused now are these o.k or not
cheers

[steviezan]

Gheluvelt, apparently not mate, I had the same ballast unit and I have now had this changed to the correct ballast unit. The new ballast is housed remotely and the old one has now been conigned to the bin.

Stevie

[simon garratt]

gheluvelt


No you cant run it.


Thats the whole point of this thread........Although the Mercury ballast 'will' run a metal halide, its not desighned to do it as accurately as a sodium/MH ballast or dedicated MH ballast........

Something to do with the power flow/frequency, it wanders too much for what we need it for, hence fluctuating/exessive UV output and stressed/burnt corals etc.


Regards

Si. :)

[reefyman]

just checked mine
vossler schwabe 400-669 ref no 167374 same as gheluvelt states for mercury vapour OR metal halide.will be changing to tridonic ones asap.ive noticed about a half dozen acros which for no other reason have begun to exhibit damaged tips.my 250w lights which i used previously ran on tridonic mh ballasts and i dont remember any probs then.
well done si for bringing this to our attention.

[keith hellyar]

I've just checked the lowbays supplied to me by Rob at Marine Lighting and they are Tridonic designed for sodium/metal halide. So, I guess I'm reassured. Unfortunately I had already emailed Rob for reassurance before I read recent posts on this thread.

keith

[reefyman]

just got my tridonic ballasts today and guess what.it says for metal halide or mercury vapour worded the opposite way to the the vossler schwabe ones which im using now.are these ok to use or am i looking at getting different ones yet again.these ballasts are almost identical to the ones i used to use for my 250w blv lamps(square with four connections on the top)

[uda]

Reefyman,

Good choice, Tridonics make good stuff :)

For metal haildes I would expect that you have either:

electronic (http://www.tridonic.com/PDF-Files/PDF_Datenblaetter/PCI_150_A20x_uk.pdf)

This is their electronic series with reduced power consumption, faulty lamp shut off etc.

or/

One of these:

magnetic ballast (http://www.tridonic.com/PDF-Files/PDF_Datenblaetter/OGLS_250-2000W_uk.pdf)

This is a very good quality high pressure sodium magnetic ballast that will do well with metal halides. They also do an almost identical one called an OMBS35-150w which should also be good.

But/

If its one of these:

merc vap (http://www.tridonic.com/PDF-Files/PDF_Datenblaetter/OMB_50-1000W_uk.pdf)

Then you may have problems as I understand it this magnetic ballast was designed and built for mercury vapour with the ability to light metal haildes 'sort of'.

They also do a smart bit of kit that they call a "remote OM box", basically its an enclosure with the ballast, ignitor, and capacitor all installed and wired up for you. This just leaves you to connect the lamp and the mains, easy.

boxed set (http://www.tridonic.com/PDF-Files/PDF_Datenblaetter/OMPAK_MB533_uk.pdf)


HTH

Andrew

[simon garratt]

Andrew.


Many thanks for your input here, its much appreciated.



Little Update, Its now been a week since i changed the ballasts. And all my cropped (and i mean cropped) Acros etc are healing over the tips very quickly. and taking on new pigment, plus there are new bumps showing where future branches are going to be sprouting. Im so chuffed I even blew a not too small amount on Two new aquisitions this week from Reef Encounters At Ivor Nr Slough. A nice Plascticene Turquise/green branching acro with yellowy polyps, and a funny looking plating Acro that looks like its going to go either pink or blue at the tips (im undecided yet) . So far both are on the bottom aclimatising to stronger lighting and the polyps are nice and fluffy.

Only downside is that the change in lighting has triggerd a small but noticable increase in algae....... ;) .........More super grazers methinks..........


Kind regards to all...........


Si. :)


Time will tell.

[nicfirth]

Thanks for pointing this out Si,

I had been planning to upgraded my ballasts and did so on Tuesday. One was definatly a MV one and the other seemed to be a true HQI ballasts, however, due to the type of upgrade I had been planning both were changed.

After only 3 days I can echo your findings, some of my acros that had never had polyp extension now do and I can see a marked increase in polyp extension on some of my other sps corals especially my monti's It is too soon to comment on pigment but as you say time will tell.

I have also experienced some short bulb life, from the MV ballast, hopefully that problem will now be sorted too.

Cheers
Nic

[Karl]

Hi All


Just a word of warning. My lights had HQI printed on the light lable, but after un-screwing the covers, I found they were MV as in above posts :angry:

Will recieve new lights on Wednesday.

I too had experienced very similar, and unsolveable problems like Simon on the MV BLV side of my reef. Wish I had found the answer sooner. The incompatability has cost ££££ and plenty of soul searching.

Once again a massive thanks for this post.


Cheers Karl :thumbsup:

[pbcunningham]

Hi, I have only just got round to checking my lights.

In my 400W, it states 400W HPS

In my 250W it states 250W High Pressure Sodium or Metal Halide.

Can I assume that I am ok and do not need to change these as they are not Mercury Vapour - or do I need to change them. :blink:

Cheers

Peter

[keith hellyar]

I pretty sure those are the correct words.

Keith

[keith hellyar]

Simon

How are you SPS since you sorted out your ballasts. Have you noticed any improvments.

Keith

[narthur]

my Ballasts say HQI gearbox ...so stupid question but i guess i'm ok??!!! anyone?!!

[simon garratt]

Hi Keith.

Yes, all my corals are doing a lot better. Colouration and growth.

My only problem now is that my Majestic has decided its hungry.....ahhhhhhhhh :angry: So she's going to live at Simon.Clark's as punishment for a month in one of his 'many' spare tanks. to let my tank rest a while and put some much needed growth on.........


If its not one thing its another :) :) :) .......




Regards

Si.

PS Narther.....IIRC HQI is just an indicator as to the suitability for domestic use....and covers both sodium and metal halide.......You need to check the spec of the actual ballast.......

If your not suffering probs though, then i would not worry. :)

[Reef bloke]

Ive just purchased one of the low bay units from fantaseas and guess what blv 10000k and the mercury ballast listed by Simon.Im not a happy bunny.

[simon garratt]

Be interesting to hear thier response.


;)


regards

Si.

[Reef bloke]

Ill let you know mate.If i get no joy from them is it just the ballast i need to change?Or do i have to change the ignitor etc?I do hope the ballasts arnt too expensive as after your findings i wont use this unit now.
Many thanks for your info Simon.

[Reef bloke]

Well after many a phone call to Fantaseas and their lowbay supplier they have seen the light lol :ph34r: .They have offered a iswaki 20000 lamp or to replace my ballast if i send the unit back.I think ill settle to send the unit back as i like 10000k BLV lighting.Im hoping that they will pick the right ballast thist time so fingers crossed but at least they know the score now.I cant really blame Fantaseas as they use these units in shop and didnt realise the prob untill i pointed it out(many thanks Simon).
I just hope my starter gear is up to the job now.Ill let you all know what my new light unit comes supllied with,cheers all Tony :)
Also just to add to comments made so far it would appear that the 10000k topflood blv bulb does not include uv protection built in.Have a look at this product pdf and you will see that the UV-p box is unticked.
http://www.blv-licht.de/images/BLVMedia0014605.PDF
So looking at this i think it would be unwise to run this bulb without UV protection glass.
Here are some pics of the mecury vapour ballast and two more of my ignitor and capacitor.

[Reef bloke]

Ballast

[Reef bloke]

capacitor.I think the Cap and ignitor should be O.K with the new ballast.

[simon garratt]

Hi Reefbloke.

Well after many a phone call to Fantaseas and their lowbay supplier they have seen the light lolÂ* .They have offered a iswaki 20000 lamp or to replace my ballast if i send the unit back.I think ill settle to send the unit back as i like 10000k


The simple fact of the matter is, they obviously do not understand the mechanics involved. The murcury ballast doesnt have the frequency control of a dedicated MH/So ballast. So it doesnt matter what bulb you chuck at it, It will still swing wildly on output in and out of the dangerouse UV band. (even with 8mm 'two layers' of toughened glass underneith, it still makes it to the corals)

IIRC the capacitor and ignitor are multi fuction so they wont affect the bulb regardless of ballast used. (i kept my origional ones and everything is fine)

The ballasts you need are listed near the beginning of this thread (ie the same manufacturer just the dedicated MH/SO version Pt number 'Oglis 250 CO44W' for the 250w version, or you can buy electronic ones. Either way i would ask them to remedy the situation properly or refund you.


Also just to add to comments made so far it would appear that the 10000k topflood blv bulb does not include uv protection built in.Have a look at this product pdf and you will see that the UV-p box is unticked.
http://www.blv-licht.de/images/BLVMedia0014605.PDF
So looking at this i think it would be unwise to run this bulb without UV protection glass.


What your actually looking at is wether UV protective lenses/ glass is 'required' or not.
The glass jacket on the BLV bulbs provides the protection for you. Hence many people run BLV single end bulbs without cover glasses (as I do) The double enders lack this jacket and need extra protection. ie a lense.

Point of note IIRC not all single ended bulbs have the same protection as BLV's even with an outer jacket, so its worth checking with the manufacturer first befor you dive head first in and fry your corals.......its not funny to see, trust me ;) .



regards

Si. :)

[Reef bloke]

Ah i see now .Ticked you need extra uv glass,unticked you dont ,my bad.Just got off the phone to Fantaseas and apparantley they are changing the ballast to one with this product code.Hi lux FLC 250 HPS so i take it thats a Sodium vapour ballast(HPS) which should do the job?
Theres some decent info on ballasts here:
ballast and light info (http://www.vossloh-schwabe.com/eng/technische_hinweise/entladungslampen/index.php)

[Reef bloke]

Update:Fantaseas are now having a few probs with their supplier concerning obtaining the correct ballasts.Fantaseas are working hard to try and sort this out but it might take a while and with my tank just around the corner i have placed an order with http://www.marine-lighting.co.uk .Jill at Fantaseas has been superb and has tried her best to get this sorted and im sure all future units will be O.K.
Do you use a contactor on your halides Simon?.I have ordered one just incase but my old Arcadia 2*150's always ran o.k on the timers without oneYour thoughts?Thanks Tony

[simon garratt]

Hi Tony.

Personnaly i dont use contactors but i should. Ive been very lucky with my B&Q segment timers for the last three years, but thats no excuse. IMO they are very strongly advised, especially if you regularly leave your tank unchecked for periods over 24hrs (working away etc. A welded timer thats jammed on in exess of 24-36 hrs can see the loss of every coral in your tank and severe stress to your fish.


Regards

Si. :)

[Reef bloke]

Thanks for the reply Simon.Rob at marine lighting mentioned your name when we placed our order and said that between the two of you you have got the metal halide lighting sussed.Thanks for bringing this to our attention mate. :thumbsup:

[pomme]

humm this is not good guys.

I had read this thread and was thinking of getting some lowbays. I liked the ones from Marine-lighting but i didnt really like the reflector.

But then i saw this one on ebay:
http://i10.ebayimg.com/02/i/01/0f/b9/35_1.JPG

and i liked the look of the reflector, and the price for a 400w internal ballst one was £41.25. Which i thought was very good. So i emailed the seller and asked him what the ballast was and he said a metal halide one and he put me through to another company (obviously where he was getting them from, as he sells about 3 a week) and they said metal halide. Si well i put the bid in and one the auction. Well i got the unit today, as this is what i found:

http://www.reefsuk.com/member_images/DSCF0001.JPG
so its a mercury ballast. Not impressed. So i have sent the seller a email.

But as i was thinking of using a BLV or arcadia bulb. I know this will matter with a BLV bulb, but will it matter with the arcadia ones, or the iwasaki ones which are ment to be run on mercury vapour ballasts?

Andrew

[Reef bloke]

From the limited knowledge i have built up i think its only the iwasaki 6500k lamps that can be run on a mercury vapour ballast.Not sure about the 200000k but i dont think i would like to take a chance.Trouble is most suppliers wont understand what you mean as in their eyes if the lamp fires up it must be O.K.The only thing you can do now is get yourself a new sodiumvapour/metal halide ballast.
Looking at the reflector in the lights from marine lighting they look parabolic so should fire light away from the lamp as the curved reflectors tend to throw the light back at the bulb.Im getting the old metal polish out on mine when i get it,hopefully itll give it a bit more reflection capacity. :D

[simon garratt]

Hi Andrew.

IIRC. An even curvature smooth reflector can have a hot spot of focused light under the main unit which isnt as good for corals as a dimpled reflector which breaks up this concentration.

As far as I'm aware this is the reasoning behind the smooth twin parabolic reflectors which reflect light around the bulb and straiten the downward reflection in a more despersed beam to prevent the hot spot effect......

Probably the best guy's to talk to on this is Simon.H and Andy Hipkiss. veritable lighting guru's IMO.

As for the Bulbs. A metal halide is a metal halide is a metal halide as some would say. ie regardless of manufacturer, for proper operation it should be run on the appropriet ballast ie one desighned exclusively for Metal halide bulbs. nearly all MH bulbs will run on a veriety of ballasts ie Sodium/Mercury/MH. But the only one that is really acceptable or advisable is a dedicated MH ballast or split use MH/SO ballast.

As for murcury ballasts being recommended for iwasaki bulbs, i cant comment, but logic dictates IME that a manufacturer would allways recommend a matching controller where available compared to what 'can' be used. But usage conditions/ criteria will have a heavy baring on this recommendation. A wharehouse isnt so important lighting wise, compared to a reeftank.


IMO It doesnt matter a fig what type of bulb it is or the type/thickness of glass used to limit escaping UV. wrong is wrong and right is right. Why use the wrong mix and then have to spend more time making other adjustments to compensate. Using the right control gear means you have the right combination from the offset and you have one less thing to worry about later as you try to work out what the hell is going on with your corals. :D At least then you can rule the lighting out as a possible cause becouse you 'know' its right.


Sorry if it makes it sound like youve wasted your time with this purchase, but its better IMO to give you my gut feeling which in this case is to send it back where it came from. You'll spend more money putting it right, than if you'd baught seperate parts origionally from someone like Harry Hird, or complete units from Marine Lighting .Uk.



Regards

Si. :)

[pomme]

yeah i know your right si. I tried to save money and took a chance and it didnt work :(. Ill wait and see what this bloke will do, as it was sold to me as a metal halide ballast!

But i will be buying my units from marine lighting from now on, as i know they are right :).

[keith hellyar]

Simon

I run lowbays from Marine lighting with 250w 10,000k BLV's. Interested in your comments that you run yours without cover glasses. Why do you do that? I assume it increases the risk of bulbs exploding if splashed. Is it for increased light intensity. If so in your experience, how much difference has it made to your SPS growth.

Keith

[simon garratt]

Hi Keith.

Mine are a good 10" from the water surface so there is little or no danger of splashing.

It doesnt make much difference in growth rate IMO, but it does make a difference to colour. I have a few bits of normal branching brown monti from Simon, and at different depths they are going different colours on the main body tissue. This ranges from bright blue/purple on the highest ones, to a pale blue with pink growth edges on the lowest. Ill bang a couple of picks up when i get 5.

regards

Si. :)

[blobby]

I have just stripped out my arcadia single pendant light units and as said earlier i urge everyone, check your wiring. my ignitors have melted and the protective sheathing on the earth was completey gone and the livewas bare for about 1cm.
Fire, well you have been warned 5 minutes for a look or a lifetime of regret.

[Reef bloke]

blobby have you left blown bulbs in there at anytime ?Just saying this as it sounds like the ignitors have been trying to fire up a defective bulb.If not id definately report this to Arcadia as everyone in your house could have been chargrilled through that.

[Reef bloke]

Finally got my bulb,god knows what Royal mail are doing they have already lost one.Lamp unit starts up alot quieter than with the mercury vapour ballast.My only prob is that when the bulb came through it had a couple of shards of glass floating around in it.They have come from the thin glass tube/sleeve inside the bulb.It must have been dropped a few times in transit,will the bulb be o.k in the long term?
.Ive also fitted an arcadia hanging kit and sprayed it hammerite silver,it looks very Deltec now lol.Just want to say a big thankyou to marine lighting.Great halide for a great price,highly recommended ! :thumbsup:

[pomme]

got my ice cap 220v electronic ballast through yesturday. and have stripped out my mercury ballast from the cheap low bay :(. and it starts up very nice, its kind of more like a pulse start with the lamp reaching its proper colour quicker but slowly getting brighter, and its silent :)

andrew

[matthew_harwood]

Hi all very interesting reading, I've bought an arcadia series 3 light second hand on ebay let me just say this, the biggest mistake I have ever made, My tank went from a tank full of SPS to a tank full of bleached corals in a matter of a week, Did everything by the book gave the corals a much shorter lighting period the units about 3 foot about the tank. Everything just started bleaching even when I had cut the lighting period even more the bleaching continued. When I bought the unit the guy told me that it had fallen of the pallet on delivery (thats why it had a small nick in it) but had been checked out by an Arcadia engineer and was A ok, when I phoned the guy his word to me where that he never said anything along those lines and that the unit had been checked by an electrician. Me thinks I smell a lie, So could this have been why I lost everything in my tank.
everybodys opinion is appreciated.
you live and learn
you learn not to trust anybody

regards
mat

P.s. the pictures my tank with the 150s over will post one of the tank

[matthew_harwood]

tank after 250's have done there damage

[elliot]

Mat,

As said onthe phone... I know how you feel.... its aweful to see them die...... it seems we balance so close on the edge. (Especially technology wise!)

Personally, as said last night... I would check the lamps, the cover glass and the way the glass was mounted.... as it sounds terribly like UV damage. (Have you verified the lamp is the correct type make?)

What I have ... as said... you are more than welcome... (but if you look at the pics... there is hardly anything)

I hope you get the reponses in this section of the forum :)

e

[matthew_harwood]

Thanks alot mate will try to post the coraline if you can send me your address via pm
regards mate
mat

[Reef bloke]

Hiya Matthew,i'm just wondering if someone could have mucked about or replaced the ballasts with Mecury vapour units if it had been damaged.
I think its worth a nose inside mate and report the findings.Is it using the original Arcadia bulbs too?
Regards Tony

[matthew_harwood]

Thats what I'm thinking as well so I'm gonna have a look inside the unit this weekend give arcadia a bell with the part numbers and check them all out
regards
mat

[craigg]

hi,

Personally I would doubt that it was a ballast issue, as this mainly effects users of lowbays or spiderlights etc. The arcadia ballasts will be all "built in". Do you still have the cover glass on however?

Craig.

[fkadir]

Anyone knows which ballast does the Arcadia 3 series uses? I am using the 3 x 250w DE version.

[dapex]

Mr Harwood, did you ever find out what caused your damage???

Cheers

[mantis]

have recently been having probs with my acros when a purple acro which came from under a 150w halide was placed under a 250w lowbay. thought it would colour up more but slowly started to go brown and is now totally this colour and losing flesh. i casted my mind back on this topic so tonight checked out the ballasts. they are the same ones that you have highlighted so its in the bin they go and replacements will be ordered.

many thanks Si :thumbsup:

craig

edit: its a 250w lowbay with a 10000k BLV bulb

[simon garratt]

Well spotted Craigg. :thumbsup:


Its nice to know people are finding it easyer to scource the problem instead of spending months scratching your head and loosing prized stock.


Regards

Si.

[cabte]

exl read si

i have recently bought a low bay from a electrical firm and replaced the bulb with a 10000 k marine bulb .
shortly after i noticed that every so often the bulb went out ,
so thinking it was the heat of the tank and the other lights also the central heating
,getting it to warm i drilled small holes in the top to let some heat out .
no good , still the same .
after reading your topic im wondering if my low bay is being powerd by a MURCURY BALAST
COULD THIS BE SO

has anyone else had the same problem.

carl

[Reef bloke]

A mecury vapour ballast will cause a MH bulb to run incorrectly.It will run hot,produce excessive u.v,run at incorrect colour temperature and fail early.
Your problem could be down to MV ballast or/and bad or faulty components.
Crack the lamp open and have a nose mate.
Tony

[cabte]

Originally posted by Reef bloke@Dec 5 2004, 23:22
A mecury vapour ballast will cause a MH bulb to run incorrectly.It will run hot,produce excessive u.v,run at incorrect colour temperature and fail early.
Your problem could be down to MV ballast or/and bad or faulty components.
Crack the lamp open and have a nose mate.
Tony
Iv just had a look inside and and carnt find anything wrong
iv also read the parts no .
it is .
VOSSLOH SCHWABE
NAHJ 150,995
ref no 172386
for high pressure sodium lamp or metal halide

dose this reflect anthing to you .

carl :thanx:

[Reef bloke]

The ballast sounds o.k to me.
For more info stick 172386 in the search engine on this page.
ballast manufacturer (http://www.vossloh-schwabe.com/eng/produkte/entladungslampen/)
A ballast that caters for metal halide only would stick to the requirments of an MH bulb a little better but that ballast should be O.K.
Tony

[cabte]

Hi tony.

Thanks for the help just been on the ballast site ,
the ballast i have has a thermal cut out for when it gets to hot ,to stop the bulb blowing ,
because it is made for outside, at night i would not generate as much heat.
unlike in the house .
not like the arcadia ,aqua-medics where they have a larger area around and vents around the ballast .
also i have been told to attach a small fan out of a pc to the side and connect it to the ballast so that it blows,or sucks {depending on witch way u put it on }air around the ballast cooling it down .
not a bad idea . :idea:

carl :thumbsup: :D :lol: :) B)

[philw307]

As asked previously, can you use BLV bulbs in a Arcadia Series 3 lighting system.

I have just replaced my 2 Arcadia today for 2 new BLV's........

[gary smith]

yes mate the blv will work perfectly in a arcadia halide :D cheers gary

[philw307]

yes mate the blv will work perfectly in a arcadia halide :D cheers gary

Phew!!!!!

Thanks for that Gary

[dvearncombe]

A very old thread I know. But thought it was worth a bump to refresh/share the information contained within (the first 2-3 pages are the ones you really need to read).
I have found this very useful from the perspective of raising my awareness about the importance of ensuring compatibility of ballasts and bulbs, but more importantly the impact that over exposure to UV can have (and the symptoms to watch for) on our beloved corals.