Reef Crystals

[lenny]

hi. a few months ago i did a post on reef crystals salt saying that i think the quality had gone down hill since the price was lowered. well as the bucket i was using then was half gone ( and to give it a fair chance) i bought a new bucket. i have just made up 125 ltrs for a water change and this is the results of my tests. PH was 8.00 kh was 9dkh calcium was 380 (low) and magnesium was under 1050 (very low). now i don,t know about you but these levels are way off the stated doses and this could, and probably is the reason for my ph dropping at night as there is hardly any buffering . anyone else having this trouble? or any advice let me know. :cheers: lenny
just looked on andy hipkisses calculator and i need to put 313grms of magnesium chloride or 380grms of epsom salts or 319 grms of a balanced mix of these just to correct the magesium up to 1350 thats not counting how much calcium needed to bring that up. you,ve lost my custom.

[Sam Hilton]

what's the salinity of the water you mixed up?

[lenny]

Originally posted by Sam Hilton@Mar 12 2005, 22:57
what's the salinity of the water you mixed up?
the refractor reads 1025,.

[Sam Hilton]

That's bad news. I think I'll check some tomorrow.
Thanks for the heads up

[vanadium]

i use rc and i check every new bag i get of the stuff...current reading are...

ph 8.2,calcium 430,mg 1170...this is mixed 24 hours before adding to my tank,its also heavily aerated and a powerhead for movement...hth

[JasandJules]

I had the same problem. Ca and MG too low. Switched to Kent, problem solved.

[lenny]

Originally posted by vanadium@Mar 13 2005, 07:08
i use rc and i check every new bag i get of the stuff...current reading are...

ph 8.2,calcium 430,mg 1170...this is mixed 24 hours before adding to my tank,its also heavily aerated and a powerhead for movement...hth
yes so do i . i use an air pump 2.5 ltrs a minute and a 1060 for 24 hours before taking any readings. also double checked them this morning with a fresh mag test kit and the readings are the same. crap. going back to kent as never had any thing like this .lenny

[Gerald]

Hi Guys

I have recently moved on to RC thinking it to be the best, I will take a very keen interest in this thread.

Be nice to get all the very experienced / first class reefers to air their views. Maybe take a poll of who uses what may help as well.

[Glenn@home]

if your mixing to 1.025 and testing with a refractometer then your mix is probably slightly lower than that, closer to 1.024 i believe.

FWIW Mg is highly dependant on salinity so if you are a point or two low then mg will show up low too.

Ca will also be affected too but the apparent difference is not as great.

To get the expected 1275 - 1350 PPT Mg your salinity should be at 35ppt which is typically 1.026.

TBH I wouldnt rely on a batch of salt being consistent

HTH

Glenn

[lenny]

Originally posted by Glenn@home@Mar 14 2005, 10:21
if your mixing to 1.025 and testing with a refractometer then your mix is probably slightly lower than that, closer to 1.024 i believe.

FWIW Mg is highly dependant on salinity so if you are a point or two low then mg will show up low too.

Ca will also be affected too but the apparent difference is not as great.

To get the expected 1275 - 1350 PPT Mg your salinity should be at 35ppt which is typically 1.026.

TBH I wouldnt rely on a batch of salt being consistent

HTH

Glenn
why would my refractor read wrong as its the best way of mesuring salinity. or am i wrong.also what method do you use.? lenny

[elliot]

is your refractometer calibrated correctly? If so then I believe it would provide the correct measure

e

[Glenn@home]

why would my refractor read wrong as its the best way of mesuring salinity

There is no reason to presume that a refractometer will provide any more accurate results than a reasonable quality hydrometer presuming of course that you use both properly.

In other words neither method of measuring is inherently more accurate, if you buy a good bit of kit then it will be accurate to within the region quoted on its calibration certificate. The TMC precision hydrometer is potentially more accurate than the average refractometer, but on the other side of the coin does it matter?

It has been reported that the refractometers sold to hobbysists are acutally not calibrated for NSW but solutions of NaCl. If you check out the recent thread then you will find the links and quotes therefrom.

As a result I believe that many of them read a point low.

I use a swing arm thingy day to day and a tmc precision glass thingy for comparison. FWIW they both give the same readings for the same sample.

HTH

Glenn

[Shultz]

I have just switched to Reef Crystals after getting bored with having to buffer Tropic Marin Reef Pro for Alk/Cal/Mag each time.

Tested the RC after 24hrs mixing @ 1.025 SG & got Alk=3.54 (9.9) Cal=400 Mag=1320 which is alot better than the TMRP, of course its possible that I had a duff bucket of it?

Cheers Shelton.

[vanadium]

why would my refractor read wrong as its the best way of mesuring salinity. or am i wrong.also what method do you use.? lenny

i use a conductivity meter!

[lenny]

Originally posted by Glenn@home@Mar 14 2005, 13:00
why would my refractor read wrong as its the best way of mesuring salinity

There is no reason to presume that a refractometer will provide any more accurate results than a reasonable quality hydrometer presuming of course that you use both properly.

In other words neither method of measuring is inherently more accurate, if you buy a good bit of kit then it will be accurate to within the region quoted on its calibration certificate. The TMC precision hydrometer is potentially more accurate than the average refractometer, but on the other side of the coin does it matter?

It has been reported that the refractometers sold to hobbysists are acutally not calibrated for NSW but solutions of NaCl. If you check out the recent thread then you will find the links and quotes therefrom.

As a result I believe that many of them read a point low.

I use a swing arm thingy day to day and a tmc precision glass thingy for comparison. FWIW they both give the same readings for the same sample.

HTH

Glenn
so on the point my meter could be a point out would that then make the figuers correct or are they still lots out? i would say they were .lenny

[scooby_uk]

sorry guys get very sililar readings to Lenny on this one tested with a Deltec refractometer and a standard hydrometer salinaty @ 1.026 magnesium is 1180 calcium 420 and ph8.1

[Glenn@home]

Lenny

Go have a look at this page, halfway down is a post from Andy Hipkiss, there are other comments to re Refractometers which indicate that there may be a minor problem particulalry if trying to determine a particular value.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.p...actometer&st=15 (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27723&hl=refractometer&st=15)

FWIW assuming the same ratios of salts in a mix then if your salinity is 35ppt your mg may be 1300.

Assuming the same ratio of salts at a lower concentration then for a salinity of 34 ppt the mg would read somewhere like 1262 and 1225 at 33 ppt.

Taking account of kit inaccuracy and it doesnt take much to see how its easy to get readings that are out a bit.

So the 1ppt for a refractometer could be important and this is why its nest imho to aim for the middle of any acceptable range.

HTH

Glenn

[vanadium]

the refracto is what most ppl have,but the conductivity meter is the most accurate!!

[Frogfone]

If it's any consolation we have had problems with our most recent bucket of RC. I can't recall exactly but I tested the last bucket and Mg was well over 1350ppm. This bucket is struggling to reach 1100ppm. Alk and Ca were also low.

Not sure if it's just been a duff batch that we are all using now or if it's anything to do with the low price. I'm just heartened by the fact that people have the same trouble with TM Pro reef which is "formulated" specially for reefs.

At the end of the day it's another thing you just can't take for granted. At least we all seem to be checking!!

Sharon

PS Re refractometers. I believe the NaCl ones are a point down compared with sea water. Also check with RO water that you have zero'd it correctly as we have the twiddly knob version which I inadvertantly moved when I was wiping down after use. It was 1.004 points out and we didn't know. :blush:

[lenny]

Originally posted by Glenn@home@Mar 14 2005, 20:27
Lenny

Go have a look at this page, halfway down is a post from Andy Hipkiss, there are other comments to re Refractometers which indicate that there may be a minor problem particulalry if trying to determine a particular value.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.p...actometer&st=15 (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27723&hl=refractometer&st=15)

FWIW assuming the same ratios of salts in a mix then if your salinity is 35ppt your mg may be 1300.

Assuming the same ratio of salts at a lower concentration then for a salinity of 34 ppt the mg would read somewhere like 1262 and 1225 at 33 ppt.

Taking account of kit inaccuracy and it doesnt take much to see how its easy to get readings that are out a bit.

So the 1ppt for a refractometer could be important and this is why its nest imho to aim for the middle of any acceptable range.

HTH

Glenn
glen i use an aqua-medic refractor that is temp compensated and must be calibrated with distilled water not ro and is designed for salt water aquariums. it is supposed to be accurate +-1%. are these no good? cost over £70 less than two months ago. :bow: lenny

[lenny]

Originally posted by vanadium@Mar 14 2005, 22:20
the refracto is what most ppl have,but the conductivity meter is the most accurate!!
again this depends on how it is calibrated. it is only as good as the calibration fluid used and by reading andy,s findings on these most are inaccurate to say the least. thats why i went for a good quality refractor not a salinity meter. as they are calibrated using distilled water and thats the same world wide .:cheers: lenny

[Glenn@home]

Lenny

The only way to know if your refractometer is truly designed for seawater is to do the research, the sales literature is often misleading.

This issue has been raised many times and it is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff, all I can say is I havent seen any of those sold to the hobbyisits as being specifically for nsw when you get past the sales literature. Mind you i didnt intend to do a 'watchdog' investigation, just looked through some pages of refractometers.

The rule seems to be they're made for brine with odd ones being designed specifically for nsw.

The ones specifically designed for seawater are expensive and cost around 200 quid iirc.

All of the ones i saw were for solutions 'conatining NaCl and little else' as I recall. This isnt sea water but all things considered does it matter?

It only matters imho when you want to make a very precise measurement out of context of the balanced reef environment. Without knowing the salinity accurately then mg could be out appreciably simply because your measuring device isnt doing what you expect, other parameters may be affected but the variation wont appear as great for Ca and Alk.

If on the other hand your limits are within the range you want and everything is in balance relative to each other then stability is the key imho.

Like i think i said earlier if your trying to check the quality of the new salt then its important to make sure your measuring what you think you are and getting answers which are relevant.

HTH

Glenn

[lenny]

Originally posted by Glenn@home@Mar 15 2005, 14:05
Lenny

The only way to know if your refractometer is truly designed for seawater is to do the research, the sales literature is often misleading.

This issue has been raised many times and it is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff, all I can say is I havent seen any of those sold to the hobbyisits as being specifically for nsw when you get past the sales literature. Mind you i didnt intend to do a 'watchdog' investigation, just looked through some pages of refractometers.

The rule seems to be they're made for brine with odd ones being designed specifically for nsw.

The ones specifically designed for seawater are expensive and cost around 200 quid iirc.

All of the ones i saw were for solutions 'conatining NaCl and little else' as I recall. This isnt sea water but all things considered does it matter?

It only matters imho when you want to make a very precise measurement out of context of the balanced reef environment. Without knowing the salinity accurately then mg could be out appreciably simply because your measuring device isnt doing what you expect, other parameters may be affected but the variation wont appear as great for Ca and Alk.

If on the other hand your limits are within the range you want and everything is in balance relative to each other then stability is the key imho.

Like i think i said earlier if your trying to check the quality of the new salt then its important to make sure your measuring what you think you are and getting answers which are relevant.

HTH

Glenn
glen i have checked with two different swing arm type salinity mesurers and a glass hydrometer and they give different reading. the closest one being the hydrometer almost the same as the refractor. may-be very small difference . so which one should i trust. also mixed up some kent salt yeterday same reading on salinity and all others mag PH calcium ect are spot on so must be bad batch of salt ???? confused lenny

[vanadium]

you will find the most accurate test is with a conductivity meter....i have used refractometers,hydrometers.....i don`t think the conductivity meter is used enough here......the meter will also tell the saturation of kalk....try a search on reef central and see what you find...hth

[Glenn@home]

lenny

ID go with the hydrometer assuming its a reasonable quality such as the tmc precision version.

Glenn

Edit Vanadium makes a valid point about conductivity meters in one sense but i suspect that accuracy costs and if you are to get a more accurate reading than the 18 quid tmc jobbie then I wonder what the cost comparisons are?

For ease of use then refractometers and conductivity meters are probably the way to go assuming you take on board the caveats previousley disucssed.

[bobkat]

I have'nt read all of this thread but it brings to mind that on some buckets in the past there was a warning that the whole bucket should be mixed at once to ensure that all the ingredients were included in the mix, since it was possible that they might not be evenly distributed through the bucket. I never took any notice of it myself and have always used the salt without measuring the mix parameters and only checked the tank water and attempted to keep that at the right levels.

Bob

[lenny]

Originally posted by bobkat@Mar 16 2005, 10:55
I have'nt read all of this thread but it brings to mind that on some buckets in the past there was a warning that the whole bucket should be mixed at once to ensure that all the ingredients were included in the mix, since it was possible that they might not be evenly distributed through the bucket. I never took any notice of it myself and have always used the salt without measuring the mix parameters and only checked the tank water and attempted to keep that at the right levels.

Bob
bobcat what happens if the water in your system has all the right parameters and you add new salt water that is way off. shock to the system and all animals and inverts. thats why i make sure all are the same before adding new water. makes good sense. :unsure: lenny

[bobkat]

Originally posted by lenny+Mar 16 2005, 21:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lenny @ Mar 16 2005, 21:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bobkat@Mar 16 2005, 10:55
I have'nt read all of this thread but it brings to mind that on some buckets in the past there was a warning that the whole bucket should be mixed at once to ensure that all the ingredients were included in the mix, since it was possible that they might not be evenly distributed through the bucket. I never took any notice of it myself and have always used the salt without measuring the mix parameters and only checked the tank water and attempted to keep that at the right levels.

Bob
bobcat what happens if the water in your system has all the right parameters and you add new salt water that is way off. shock to the system and all animals and inverts. thats why i make sure all are the same before adding new water. makes good sense. :unsure: lenny [/b][/quote]
No Lenny, it's not so. The amount of water that I would change compared with the volume of the tank makes little difference to the overall parameters and whatever there are will be taken care of fairly quickly by control of calcium additions and if required, magnesium. My tank was fine and spoke for itself.

I think people are getting a bit obsessed about a non-problem. Salt mixes have been in use for many years without any major problems, why should there be one now. There have always been variations between the different makes and I have used several of them without problems.
Bob

[Glenn@home]

getting a bit obsessed about a non-problem

Here, here Bob.

Personally I havent measured the parameters of the salt mix i use and perhaps thats why im not as succesful as others, but on the other hand Im pretty sure I know the problems with my setup and an imbalance in the Ca/Alk level in a bucket of salt is probably the least of them.

JMHO

Glenn

[vanadium]

lenny,


at the end of the day,you must be doing something right...your tank is top notch...if what you are doing works for you,then i would not change anything...you have a superb tank... :thumbsup:

[petew]

I did a mix starting yesterday over 24 hours. Airated over night andded salt slowly this morning. Hydrometer reads 1.026 spot on. Mg 1300, Ca 450, 12.2 dkh. This is the first time for ages I've uded RC but swaped from Tropic Marine Pro as stockist didn't have any.

Looks high to me compared to what I've read but Mg is low compared to the other readings.

If you guys are right (and it looks like majority rules) I would suspect my hydrometer. Unfortunately it doesn't go down to 1.00 so RO testing is out. Any body else had similar readings recently?