Battle Of The Salts [Archive]

Glenn@home

08-06-05, 12:47

IO i was always under the impression it wasnt a 'reef' salt

Thats the rumour, but until recently i had always used IO and I know of more respected mmebrs who only use IO.

Just goes to show, well maybe, i suppose it could be a glitch, an inconsistent batch.

It would be interesting to look at the same salt from a variety of manufacturing batches bearing in mind the recent posts on this subject.

We would have to have a standard method for doing the test though for the results to be of any use at all.

GLenn

tombsc

08-06-05, 12:53

Interesting.

What test kits are you using?
What temperature?
How long from mixing to testing?

Thanks

Tom

elliot

08-06-05, 12:55

What procedure did you use to ensure all the batches were made up in the same way?

Did you mix the salt brands up first to ensure no settling out in transportation?

Elliot

popsock

08-06-05, 13:35

TMC refractometer. Pinpoint pH monitor calibrated before test. Rest are salifert test kits.

Temperature = 22C

Mixing to testing was about 10 minutes each, when the water was crystal clear.

No, the salt was not mixed up before use. I don't think anybody mixes up 25ltr buckets of salt before use, but interesting idea.

elliot

08-06-05, 14:42

I do !!!

And surely testing after 10 minutes is reasonably meaningless??????

Elliot

wayne g

08-06-05, 14:48

24 hours minimum i would say.
just set up my new tank and after 48 hours my calcium read 420
this was in a 197gal tank/sump with no live rock,no additives and no livestock.

Glenn@home

08-06-05, 15:08

As much as I would say that carrying out a series of experiments with different volumes, temperatures and mixing periods would be ideal.

since all of the batches were tested in the same way then at least the results are indicative of the releative merits.

I dont and never have made up batches of salt by the bucket load, but have done with smaller packets but havent ever tested to see how good/bad it is.

I have often wondered how the salt is mixed when manufactured.

I suspect its mixed in batches of several tonnes then poured inot packets for sale. Does anyone know how its made?

Glenn

elliot

08-06-05, 15:18

glenn,

would you not expect different rates of precipitation depending on the constituents of the salt ?... As such the method may work better for some brands, relative to another :huh:

e

tombsc

08-06-05, 15:19

I'd like to see the same tests done after 24 and 48 hours of mixing to see how the different brands affect the various levels over time.
I think 10 minutes is too soon to be accurate as the different salt brands may breakdown at different rates and be affected differentky by O2 levels in the water etc etc.

Hope you've got lots of space/heaters/salt and time to test for us :whistling: :thumbsup:

keith hellyar

08-06-05, 15:30

Interesting results which fit with my unscientific impression of these brands. I've used all three at at various times and I rate them as follows

Instant Ocean - Good and best value for money.

Reef Crystals - Very good and less value for money

Reef Pro - Poor and b****y expensive. Marketed as the salt to die for and thats what happened to some of my SPS. I cant prove it was the salt but actions I have taken which include resorting to using reef crystals again has repaired the damaged growth tips

On balance I'm thinking that the cheapest IO coupled with more frequent partial water changes is even better than RC, but I'm currently through half a bucket of RC and half a bucket of reef Pro. I'm mixing them together 60/40 in favour of RC. I will never use Reef Pro exclusively again. Too risky and too expensive.

Keith

Glenn@home

08-06-05, 15:35

Elliot

I dont know to be honest.

I suspect that the compounds used in the different brands are the same, maybe sourced from different chemical suppliers and so may have different impurities, but in essence im pretty sure they will all use the same stuff to make their salt mixes.

Whilst i do accept there will be some differences between brands over the compositions, I would not have expected there to be that much difference due to solubility/precipitation assuming the same mixing technique and compunds are used.

I suppose what im saying is that if the salts are mixed folllowing the makers instructions that the end results should be within the realms of what it says on the packet.

Mixing up small amounts may not be a true indicator since if you cop a load of one compound wrt to another part of the packet it will skew the results signifcantly.

This is why i asked the question about how the salt mix is made.

I have worked making concrete posts using a smallish mixer, it was quite clear that even what appeared to be small differences affected the strength and look of the whole mix quite considerably which resultedin differences from post to post.

I know were not making posts here, but it occurs to me that the same problmes of mixing chemicals applies ie. to get exactly the right proportions in the total mix then make sure the every pot or package has the same proportions in it.

Intersting post though, i reckon posock has been on holiday with all the little ad hoc research hes doing :lol:

Glenn

xxmattyxx

08-06-05, 16:14

Interesting.

I think regardless of others scepticism that bearing in mind ALL the samples were subject to the same conditions and procedures it holds credibility.

Matt

Chevvy Lover

08-06-05, 17:20

Originally posted by xxmattyxx@Jun 8 2005, 15:14
Interesting.

I think regardless of others scepticism that bearing in mind ALL the samples were subject to the same conditions and procedures it holds credibility.

Matt
Lads i have to agree with Matty, they all show different readings, but they were all subject to the same conditions.

Unless i dunno, does something special happen overnight? or shall we just wait for some evaporation?

Anthony

PS that is not meant in a sarcastic manor, i just believe that some comments are on the defense, whilst in my opinion that was a fair test.

elliot

08-06-05, 20:54

Originally posted by Chevvy Lover+Jun 8 2005, 16:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chevvy Lover @ Jun 8 2005, 16:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-xxmattyxx@Jun 8 2005, 15:14
Interesting.

I think regardless of others scepticism that bearing in mind ALL the samples were subject to the same conditions and procedures it holds credibility.

Matt
Lads i have to agree with Matty, they all show different readings, but they were all subject to the same conditions.

Unless i dunno, does something special happen overnight? or shall we just wait for some evaporation?

Anthony

PS that is not meant in a sarcastic manor, i just believe that some comments are on the defense, whilst in my opinion that was a fair test. [/b][/quote]
thats the point of the debate...... desipte popsock's repeatable procedure.... is it fair to test the salt in this manner.?

I for one certainly believe a 25kg bucket of salt should be mixed before use (Reef Crystals)..... why?... b/c you get precipitation....

What about the stability issue?... is 10 mins fair?

elliot

coling

08-06-05, 21:40

Test again after 24 hours mixing please, even just one of the brands and see if the result is the same.

xxmattyxx

08-06-05, 22:06

It reminds me of that old chestnut about test kits, the more recent consensus regarding test kits being.....not if theyre so accurate but more are they showing an indication of change in any given setup, i.e. what changes/trends are your water parameters exhibiting.

Isnt that purely what is being indicated here, so long as the conditions are uniform across the board then the results are comparable, not necessarily concerning what is possible to be tested, but as far as the tests go they are comparable.

Two cars, different tyres, same road conditions, run a test, get your results.

Job done.

Theres always gonna be those that pick up on 'well, thats no good the tyres wernt warmed up first........'

Whatever :lol: :lol:

Both sets of tyres were exposed to the same conditions, a conclusion can be drawn from that information.

Matt

Stevielad

08-06-05, 22:28

Originally posted by xxmattyxx@Jun 8 2005, 21:06
It reminds me of that old chestnut about test kits, the more recent consensus regarding test kits being.....not if theyre so accurate but more are they showing an indication of change in any given setup, i.e. what changes/trends are your water parameters exhibiting.

Isnt that purely what is being indicated here, so long as the conditions are uniform across the board then the results are comparable, not necessarily concerning what is possible to be tested, but as far as the tests go they are comparable.

Two cars, different tyres, same road conditions, run a test, get your results.

Job done.

Theres always gonna be those that pick up on 'well, thats no good the tyres wernt warmed up first........'

Whatever :lol: :lol:

Both sets of tyres were exposed to the same conditions, a conclusion can be drawn from that information.

Matt
Yeah - that's all very well - but i don't think anybody adds water to their tank after just ten minutes mixing.

As others have said it would be interesting to repeat after 24-48 hr to see if the results are similar to above.

Oh - and (putting my science hat on) have to do more than one test of each to minimise test errors.

xxmattyxx

08-06-05, 22:35

Originally posted by Stevielad@Jun 8 2005, 22:28

Yeah - that's all very well - but i don't think anybody adds water to their tank after just ten minutes mixing.

As others have said it would be interesting to repeat after 24-48 hr to see if the results are similar to above.

Oh - and (putting my science hat on) have to do more than one test of each to minimise test errors.
Please don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that a conclusion can be drawn from it, as Popsock said at the start 'make from that what you will', and I have.......:lol:

My own feelings, which is why I drew the test kit comparison, was that theres an indication there, at the very least.

If peeps wish to use this as justification to opt for one brand of salt over another, fine, personally I wouldnt. But I do use it for myself to justify continuing to use a particular brand of salt as it further proves what I personally feel about particular brands, be that good/bad or indifferent.

Matt

xxmattyxx

08-06-05, 22:37

Originally posted by Stevielad@Jun 8 2005, 22:28
Yeah - that's all very well - but i don't think anybody adds water to their tank after just ten minutes mixing.

'ere, some dont mix at all <_< <_<

Seriously though, I dont actually think Popsock was suggesting that.

Stevielad

09-06-05, 01:23

Originally posted by xxmattyxx+Jun 8 2005, 21:35--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (xxmattyxx @ Jun 8 2005, 21:35)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Stevielad@Jun 8 2005, 22:28

Yeah - that's all very well - but i don't think anybody adds water to their tank after just ten minutes mixing.

As others have said it would be interesting to repeat after 24-48 hr to see if the results are similar to above.

Oh - and (putting my science hat on) have to do more than one test of each to minimise test errors.
Please don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that a conclusion can be drawn from it, as Popsock said at the start 'make from that what you will', and I have.......:lol:

My own feelings, which is why I drew the test kit comparison, was that theres an indication there, at the very least.

If peeps wish to use this as justification to opt for one brand of salt over another, fine, personally I wouldnt. But I do use it for myself to justify continuing to use a particular brand of salt as it further proves what I personally feel about particular brands, be that good/bad or indifferent.

Matt [/b][/quote]
But:

If Brand A takes ten minutes to get to "full strength"

And Brand B takes 24 hours

Then the test (at ten mins) will be biased in favour of Brand A.

It is really only safe to draw conclusions on the water when it has reached stability.

I'd just like to see what the results show at a later time point :)

xxmattyxx

09-06-05, 09:01

I'm sure time will alter the readings, 100 % of that.

You can then draw ANOTHER set of conclusions from those test results too.

:lol: :lol:

Matt

tombsc

09-06-05, 09:25

Matt,
The only conclusion you can draw from popsock's test is that after 10 minutes, brand X is better than brand Y.
That's fine if that's what we as hobbiests need to know. But what we really need to know is which brand is best once the various brands have reached stability, and the only way to find out is to keep testing until each brand gives consistant results. For brand X, that may well be after 10 mins, but for brand Y, that may be 20mins or 24 hours.
Popsock's test was interesting and helpful, but not scientific.
Tom

Sean the Prawn

09-06-05, 09:40

Originally posted by tombsc@Jun 9 2005, 08:25

Popsock's test was interesting and helpful, but not scientific.
Tom
IMO it was interesting and fairly scientific but not very helpful! :lol:

Thanks though :thumbsup:

~Tony~

09-06-05, 09:54

Interesting but would be much more useful if the measurements were taken at the point when the salt mix is normally used ie after 48hrs of aeration.
The readings I get for my salt mix at that point is:

Tropic Marin Pro Reef (35ppm salt)
pH 8.2
dKH 8.0
Calcium 450ppm
Magnesium 1440ppm
using Salifert test kits & refractometer

which differs from Popsock's readings. That could be the stabilised mix or just a different batch of salt.
It would be useful to follow this up with more tests.

Tony

Glenn@home

09-06-05, 10:40

IMHO

THe test was a reasonable comparison assuming the tests were conducted in the same way.

It seems that most are assuming that the different brands of salt will all have compunds in them which take time to dissolve properly or react with the air due to aeration and hence give different readings.

What i dont know for certain since I havent done any analysis, is do the different brands contain different compunds to achive the alk, Ca, mg levels or is it primarily the proportions that change from brand to brand?

For example if you wanted to achive a Ca reading in your brand of salt of say 420ppm then you would add a compund that did this well, it would seem logical that the compund that does this will be the same for ALL the companies since they have to pick something that will achive those results in that envrionment and in the context of the other chemicals in the salt mix.

They will all buy the compund from their suppliers to add to their salt it may be a different supplier but is it likley they will use a different compund?

Its a bit like looking inside a cornflakes packet, they all contain flaked maize which has been roasted or whatever, it may come from different factories and some people claim that kellogs is best, most would argue that they are all pretty much the same.

I believe that there may be differences between brands particulalry with regards to trace elements, whether the primary elements which we can measure as hobbysists are affected is imh unlikely.

Of course a wider raningn set of experiements is always desireable, the biug mistake the researcher in this case made was not adding the caveat at the end of his post 'more research in this fiedl is desireable' or similar. :lol:

Glenn

Shultz

09-06-05, 12:16

IIRC on another forum or website some guys got together & all paid in some money & then the choosen one went out & bought about 10 different salt brands, mixed them up over a 24hr period & then tested the Sg/pH/Cal/Mag/Alk of each one & then posted the results?

I can't remember though whether it was part sponsored by a salt maker & was claimed to be bais though?

Would it be worth doing something like that on here with people paying say a fiver & then one person with more time of his hands than sense buys a kg of each salt & mixes up etc? I'm sure enough could be raised to cover the cost of the RO & test kits as well?

P.S no I'm not volateering as my wife nigh on kills me for the amount of time I bugger about with the tank now! :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

Cheers Shelton.

Glenn@home

09-06-05, 12:55

Shelton

At first sight this seems like a good idea, on consideration though what is it we are hoping to gain?

Anecdotal evidence suggests that some/all brands vary in their consistency so a one off test of loads of different brands wont be any more useful than the test carried out above.

Are we trying to identify which salt is the closest to some 'ideal' for a reef tank?

Im not sure such a thing exists, speaking for myself i dont test for Ca and ALk in my salt mix, since i dose this via kalk and dont do changes regular enough to use this means for supplementation.

I dont test for trace elements and am not sure thet most can easily be tested for by the hobbyist . For me this is the only real benifit of doing water changes but something which i cannot define myself.

If the test was to identify the trace elements, their proportions or lack of, the consistency of them from batch to batch then i could see it being benificial to more members.

My suspicion is that this is a long way beyond what we could do as hobbyists and therefore I would have to say what are we going to achieve?

I am not trying to be negative and of course everyone will have their views and reasons for wanting to know whats in the salt we use, unfortunately the salt we use, whatever brand, seems to suffer from incosistency at a level we can test for and Im not sure that anyhting other than a long term test of one or more brands would do anything other than raise more questions.

JMHO

Glenn

Shultz

09-06-05, 13:03

Fair comments Glenn, can totally see where you are coming from, I suppose the only thing you would gain would be to know which salts from "that batch tested" are low, bearing in mind the great difference in salt prices for a 25kg bucket it /could/ show whether certain salts are over hyped, but as stated before the results would only be one persons thoughts due to how & where they mixed the salt & at what temp & by how they interpretant (sp) the test results from the testkits used, which of course are only a guide in themselves? :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

I suppose when you think about it properly the results would be open for shooting season :blush:

Cheers Shelton.

rockster2599

09-06-05, 16:02

Hang on though, arent instant ocean and reef crystals the same thing? Reef crystals just has a bit more calcium ( and Vits So the manufacturers claim), I would expect a little more difference betwwen the two types in the amount of calcium . Being that Calcium will be one of the hardest things to dissolve in reef salt, I think longer time is needed for dissolving.
Rockster

Adam C

09-06-05, 22:54

Test
salt test (http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://web.archive.org/web/20010303215133/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp)

elliot

09-06-05, 22:55

Originally posted by rockster2599@Jun 9 2005, 15:02
Hang on though, arent instant ocean and reef crystals the same thing? Reef crystals just has a bit more calcium ( and Vits So the manufacturers claim), I would expect a little more difference betwwen the two types in the amount of calcium . Being that Calcium will be one of the hardest things to dissolve in reef salt, I think longer time is needed for dissolving.
Rockster
or precipitation due to method?

e

popsock

10-06-05, 01:25

As far as I'm aware there are only a few places on the planet that these companies buy their salt from, and several companies buy their base salt from the same places.

They then refine it and add various chemicals to make their brands.

If you read your buckets of Instant Ocean or Reef Crystals it should say that they are ready to be used immediately (I will check this again tomorrow). I haven't checked the TMC brand, so I will do that also.

If I can find time I will do a 24 hour test. However, 24 hours can change a lot, including evaporation as mentioned previously, and other contaminants.

Elliot, I'm not sure what you think would precipitate from the salt mix?
Andy

popsock

10-06-05, 10:11

Just check Tropic Marin's Pro Reef "the saltwater is ready to use as soon as the salt is completelydissolved"

To me that means when the water is crystal clear, which is how the tests were run.

I will leave some for 24 hours and post when its ready.

coling

10-06-05, 10:33

Good work popsock.

rockster2599

10-06-05, 11:41

Originally posted by popsock@Jun 10 2005, 09:11
Just check Tropic Marin's Pro Reef "the saltwater is ready to use as soon as the salt is completelydissolved"

To me that means when the water is crystal clear, which is how the tests were run.

I will leave some for 24 hours and post when its ready.
Yeah, I just think 24hrs is more meaningfull because due to popular advice thats how long most reefers (myself included) dissolve and aerate saltwater. It probably makes bugger all difference :huh:
The test article above shows very little difference in composition but I guess I shouldnt be surprized about that.
Rockster

Glenn@home

10-06-05, 11:54

I just think 24hrs is more meaningfull because due to popular advice

One of the problems with popular advice is that often its based on partial or incomplete information.

Im not saying, nor trying to say that there is anything wrong with waiting for 24 hours before using new salt mix, but rather its probably more pertinent to base the use of the new mix on whether the salt mix has completely dissolved rather than a simple time base.

I suspect that the time period oft quoted is based on the premise that someone somehwere asked an 'expert' how they knew when everything was dissolved and mixed properly.

The answer 24 hours was probalby just a good/reasonable guess rather than being a fundemental issue.

The timeframe would vary from one situation to the next and for some an hour could be fine whereas for others 48 hours would be better.

Speaking for myself, i only use a relaitlvey small power head to mix around 25 - 30 gallons of salt mix when i do a change and so leaving it for 24 hours is probably necesxsary to make sure everyhintg is dissolved.

JMHO

glenn

Edit re precipitation, I would guess that if something precipitates out of the mix it is more likley due to incorrect mixing technique rather than a fundemental property of the salt mix. I am not sure that the duration the mixture is left 'stirring' would prevent this except in the sense that f you dont stir but dump an excessive amount of salt mix into your mixing vessel you will get precipitation.

tombsc

10-06-05, 11:56

I add my new water after about an hour of mixing so just want to see if 24hours makes any difference :whistling:

wayne in norway

10-06-05, 14:17

I think the waiting has to do with it gaining CO2 from the atmosphere when the water is first left to stand from the tap(!) or RO. As it stands so the pH goes down a bit.

petew

10-06-05, 15:00

I've moved recently to waiting 24 hrs instead of the 3-4 I used before (mainly to warm the water) Frankly I've found bu**er all diference with eiother reef pro which I was useing or RC which I use now. I'm looking forward to the 24 hr response 'cos currently I'm thinking it's just a waste of time.

popsock

11-06-05, 10:05

24 hour(ish) results:

Tropic Marin Pro Reef (35ppm salt)
pH 8.02
dKH 8.8
Calcium 300ppm
Magnesium way over 1500ppm

Reef Crystals (35ppm salt)
pH 8.33
dKH 12.2
Calcium 435ppm
Magnesium 1350ppm

The Reef Crystals is pretty much the same as it was after 10 minutes when you take into consideration a night's evaporation, so I would definately not wait 24 hours to use that.

The Reef Pro is odd as the dKH and calcium have actually dropped which I can't explain.

popsock

11-06-05, 22:09

Just to add... this is only one batch of salt tested. All salts go through bad batches. Can somebody else try the test with some Reef Pro? I can't believe its as bad as it seems to be. Just test it after its dissolved as per instructions, can't see any need to leave it for 24 hours.

Oh, and I always thought the reason people left it 24 hours was more to do with dissolving oxygen back into the water. This can be easily done in a few moments by stirring though, so its all a bit of a mystery.

~Tony~

22-06-05, 01:21

As I am doing a water change I have re-tested my mix

RO water
Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt

After 10 minutes (fully dissolved):
salinity 35.0 ppt
temp 21.3
pH 7.6
dKH 7.8 = 2.8 meq/lt
Calcium 420 ppm
Magnesium 1290 ppm

After 8 hours:
temp 24.5
pH 8.2

After 24 hours:
salinity 35.0 ppt
temp 24.8
pH 8.2
dKH 7.8 = 2.8 meq/lt
Calcium 420 ppm
Magnesium 1300 ppm

using Salifert test kits & Brannan BS718 Densitometer and BS593 thermometer

So the only change is the pH, which I guess is not really surprising as the only addition is air.

Interestingly these reading from the end of the salt tub are lower than my first reading from the start of the tub. dKH 8.0, Ca 450, Mg 1440
So either I am now better at the Salifert tests or the salt mix varies across the tub and I should have mixed it somehow. It will be interesting to see the results from my next bucket of salt.

Tony

popsock

22-06-05, 09:42

Interesting, that's much better.

clippo

22-06-05, 12:40

In my experience, the SG reading of a new batch of Reefcrystals reaches its final value after about half an hour of mixing - suggets to me that it is fully mixed - I leave it at least 24 hours anyway. Btw, should we be considering the mixing method here (rate, airstone verses powerhead etc)? - also won't the TDS of the RO water used affect the results slightly?

~Tony~

22-06-05, 13:07

My mixing method:

Maxijet 1200 with air bleed set high
RO water tds <2 ppm. Water has passed through DI, ie RO-man 4 stage
Mixing container is covered to avoid contamination and evaporation.

Tony

roman

22-06-05, 13:57

May be the PH is changing due to the water having less CO2, did anyone use a sealed container for the 24 hour test?

~Tony~

22-06-05, 14:08

No. I purposely inject air bubbles sourced from outside the container in order to let the CO2 (and O2 ?) content stabilise.

Tony

wise owl

23-07-05, 19:33

Popsock, just like to confirm your results for reefcrystals......EXACTLY the same as i have been getting on ever bag ive tested so far....cant speak for buckets tho, and i use mine immeadiatly as well with no probs, would'nt do that with many ive tested tho <_<

surprised at the IO results....never actually used it as heard it was poor with DI water but may give it a go now.

Anyone got any results for the aquamedic salt ??

Paul.

Esk

23-07-05, 20:19

Anyone got any results for the aquamedic salt ??

Did a test on a batch of this a while back and got the following results 12 hours after mixing

Salinity. 35 ppt
Temp. 25.0c
MG. 1140
Dkh. 8.3
Calcium. 390

Sorry didnt record the ph :blush:

popsock

21-09-05, 12:00

I've just tested Seachem's New Reef Salt, results are:

at SG 1.026
pH 8.5
dissolved O2 after 15 minutes 6.3ppm
dKH 10.2
Alk 3.66
Calc. 430ppm
Mag 1320 ppm
Boron 10+ppm

Mixed in 15 minutes.

:thumbsup:

wise owl

23-09-05, 01:47

Hmmmm.....Just tested a sample of aquamedic reef salt i was given....source water was de-ionised,

PH= 8.3
KH= 8.1
Ca= 475ppm
Mg= 1400ppm

ammonia and phosphate un-detectable.

looks like aquamedic have just found a new customer on those results as i have no calcium reactor....also no synthetic odour like the reef crystals, RC has a slight edge on the mixing front but not much...

are their two types of aquamedic salt ?.....like one for tap one for RO ?

Paul.

andy1

24-09-05, 11:17

does anybody know how kent marine is against all these other brands ?. and how would you go about changing to a different brand ?. :thumbsup:

wise owl

25-09-05, 00:50

Apparently kent used to suffer from **** poor PH [around 8.0] and rumour control has it they have re-formulated due to this and any new stock coming into the country is the improved stuff....or so my inside source tells me,

Paul.

tombsc

26-09-05, 12:08

I couldn't get my ph over 7.9 with kent. Switched to Pro Reef, but now am using Red Sea - because it was cheap..

andy1

26-09-05, 13:35

how do you go about changing salts over to another brand?.do you just do it gradual with water changes ????

popsock

26-09-05, 13:45

Just start using the new salt.

andy1

26-09-05, 14:09

thanx for that as iam using kent at the mo and thinking of changing to another brand but not sure as to which one yet :thumbsup:

wayne in norway

27-09-05, 08:33

I used Kent at one point and it always mixed up OK for me but I don't recall exact numbers. I have been lead to believe it was rebadged something (ReefCrystals?)
AquaMedic make 3 salts I believe

popsock

27-09-05, 13:03

Personally I think the Seachem, Aquamedic and Reef Crystals salts are best for reefs.

kitenski

27-09-05, 15:31

I use Kent, PH of the tank is 7.9 to 8.2

Test on a fresh bucket of mixed salt with salifert test kit.

salienty 1.026
KH/Alk dKH 13.4
Calcium 435
Nitrate: 0

popsock

02-10-05, 20:42

Good stuff. Here's a giggle:

RED SEA Salt
pH 7.8
dKH 6.4
Calcium 290 <------- yes that's not a typo
at salinity 1.026

obviously meant for use with something other than RO!

Horatii

02-10-05, 21:46

I find that last result hard to believe.
Ive only ever used Red Sea salt in my 200L reef for 12mths. I dont use any additives or a calc reactor and my Cal level is 420. The lowest its ever been is 360!
I mix it in RO/DI water and do a 30L water change nearly every week. Ive never tested my mixes for anything other than PH and that has always been 8.2 at a salinity of 1.025.

popsock

02-10-05, 22:51

All salts have bad batches, that could be the answer. I'm not wasting any more money on Red Sea salt to find out though.

wise owl

03-10-05, 02:10

Can confirm the results [nearer to horatios ..around 360 for Ca] for red sea salt as i used that for a couple of years b4 i switched to something more suitable for DI water....i had major issues holding alk as i tested out later the Mg is totally pants with this salt.....by the time id tweaked it up the Mg to an acceptable level the intially cheap price was wiped out with suppliments, :angry:

great for tapwater tho....thats if you really want a mess of a tank :huh:

Paul.

popsock

07-10-05, 23:49

Interestingly two people have told me recently that their Reef Crystals has been appalling. calcium levels of 350-370ppm. So it would seem that pretty much all salts seem to be crap at one time or another?!?!

I'm going to buy every bloody salt on the planet and test them all 3 times. I'll post back here in 2012. :thumbsup:

Johnymajors

08-10-05, 12:41

I have also used Red Sea salt for years with no problems with low params.

However i do belive there may have been a bad batch, as im currently in the process of bringing my levels back into line after a major parameter fallout, which starting happening after purchasing a fresh batch.

I have since purchased a new batch of Red Sea salt and after 5% water cahnges (every other day) over a 2 week period my params are now almost back in line.

wise owl

10-10-05, 03:35

Popsock.......i think its got more to do with crap test kits and peoples ability to use them, a qualification in chemistry helps...which i have, as i have seen ask 30 people to test something and you get 30 different results....a fraction of which are way off,

Personally ive never set to much stall in the 'bad batch' theory.....AFAIK all the major companies test their batchs b4 realease as their rep depends on it....tho iam sure it must happen anyway occasionally.....no ones perfect.

Paul.

popsock

11-10-05, 01:27

I've asked for a sample of the dodgy salt, I'll take a look. If bad I'll send it off to the manufacturer.

popsock

23-10-05, 17:13

Seachem Marine Salt (fish only stuff) 35ppt

Calcium 325
dKH 7.7
Mag. 1200
pH 8.4

djnav

24-10-05, 22:01

has any1 tested tropicmarine salt not the PRO Reef. jus the original? can sum1 post d results 4 dat plz :dance:

xxmattyxx

24-10-05, 22:11

Originally posted by djnav@Oct 24 2005, 22:01
has any1 tested tropicmarine salt not the PRO Reef. jus the original? can sum1 post d results 4 dat plz :dance:
Could you say that in English please?

popsock

24-10-05, 22:15

lol

simon garratt

24-10-05, 22:59

Seachem Marine Salt (fish only stuff) 35ppt

Calcium 325
dKH 7.7
Mag. 1200
pH 8.4

Can anybody explain the scientific reasoning as to why a salt would be good for fish, and not for corals, or vice versa.

:blink:

Will

24-10-05, 23:02

Originally posted by simon garratt@Oct 24 2005, 23:59
Seachem Marine Salt (fish only stuff) 35ppt

Calcium 325
dKH 7.7
Mag. 1200
pH 8.4

Can anybody explain the scientific reasoning as to why a salt would be good for fish, and not for corals, or vice versa.

:blink:
added copper :lol:

popsock

25-10-05, 00:16

Fish are way less sensitive to salt quality. Mineral level is irrelevant almost - you can get away with murder and have no detrimental affect on the fish. pH and dkH are important to fish, and the Seachem salt has those spot on.

simon garratt

25-10-05, 00:46

So we are basically saying that cirtain manufacturers manufacture salt with little in the way of attention to perameters outside these criteria and openly advertise the fact? If so, do they advocate the gradual changing to a different brand in the advent of the addition of inverts?

And if this is the case which manufacturers practice this habit?

From Seachems own site.

Seachem’s Marine Salt™ is specifically designed to replicate the saltwater marine environment. It provides every major, minor and trace element necessary. This ensures that even the most delicate marine fish, invertebrates and plants will thrive. Marine Salt’s™ enhanced alkalinity ensures a more stable pH than competing salt blends. Marine Salt™ possesses excellent solubility characteristics and will provide a clear, ready to use solution in only a few minutes. Marine Salt™ is a convenient and easy to use one-part formula that is ideal for mixing either small or large batches of saltwater. Utilizing state of the art production facilities ensures a consistent and uniform particle size that will not separate in packaging or shipping and will provide a consistent saltwater mix every time.Aquarium Use Only! Keep Away from Children!

Regards

Si. :)

popsock

25-10-05, 12:03

LOL. I like Seachem's products and they're a good company to deal wtih - their reps are very helpful. The truth is that Marine Salt is for fish only systems and Reef is for reef systems. That's what the folks at Seachem have told me a few times now. There are quiet a few things on Seachem's web stie that go directly against what the people that work for Seachem will tell you - which is a bit annoying.

"This ensures that even the most delicate marine fish, invertebrates and plants will thrive." is just nonsense. I'll send them an email.

simon garratt

25-10-05, 14:14

Yes, but playing devils advocate for our less well informed or novice members, ;)

What exactly (scientifically) is it that makes you state that a salt is 'desighned' for fish, and not inverts.? Especially as you are quoting as 'fact' something in direct opposition to a major manufacturers litterature.

After all, they live in exactly the same medium in the wild so why the need for a difference to start with. Accepting that boosted levels of cirtain elements in a salt mix may or may not be benificial in the running of a very heavily stocked reeftank where depletion happens at a faster rate than you can reasonably cope through water changes and a reactor.

To all intence and purpose though, i see no evidance that a standard mix should be anything less than ideal for the average stocked tank, or that there is any evidance to suggest that standard mixes are less than adequate for inverts should they be included in a system.

In which case, is there such a thing as a 'fish only' mix, or are we simply talking a personal opinion based on a preferance for over loaded (enriched) blends over statdard mixes.?

Not meaning to be rude, simply trying to get to the facts. :)

Regards

Si.

robsmarines

25-10-05, 19:19

:bow:
agree si no such thing as a fish only salt all salts are for fish and inverts some just put a little extra cal/mag/ect for the corals.

robsmarines

popsock

25-10-05, 19:34

If you're talking about Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals then I totally agree. Instant Ocean is a great salt, and Reef Crystals should be even better - from the perspective of the SPS head.

Si, you'll have to contact Seachem for further details on why they make two types of salt. Suffice to say that I believe that their Marine salt is meant for Fish-only systems, specifically shops, zoos, public aquariums etc where cutting cost is important.

You'll probably find that the Seachem Reef salt is really just the marine salt with extra goodies.

simon garratt

25-10-05, 23:02

Personnaly, i really dont think this FO/Reef salt theory holds any water (excuse the pun :D ).

From what ive seen, Ie the effects of the various salts out there on reef systems from Reef-Pro, to humble IO (my preferd choice). There is no conclusive evidence either way to label any salt as desighned for FO or Reef, or to say that any salt is specifically 'not' desighned for inverts/reeftanks. The use of standard IO (regularly claimed by some hobbyists as a Fish system salt) in both my own tank and that of Simon Clarks completely blows this theory/accusation to shreds imo.

Now if we are talking, two 'grades' of salts, ie one that offers 'base level' quality for saltwater inhabitants (note the lack of genera quotation there), and another that offers hightened levels of those elements commonly depleted quickly in the presence of 'high volumes' of calcifying organisms, then fine, i dont have a problem with this statement.

But the term 'fish only' i find both innacurate and a potentially damaging label that indicates that fish are more tolerant than corals when it comes to their habitat chemistry, which as anybody whos kept rare or very sensitive species will attest couldnt be further from the truth. There are species of coral out there that will quite happily thrive in some appalingly bad situations that would see the demise of the hardyest of fish, like wise there are fish as sensitive to pH swings moreso than alot of SPS corals etc. and this perameter is directly linked to salt standards.

In essence im saying ,

For the sake of novices, we shouldnt use the term 'fish only' salt, (as has been the case with IO in the past) This is an untruth based on speculation, mythinformation, and a good dose of dodgy testing/mixing practices by hobbyists whove come to some random assumption based on what they have got in these tests. Ultimately, im saying that 'Fish only' salt doesnt actually exist, and more importantly, the label shouldnt iether. You simply get varying grades of salt from one manufacture to another, some of which offer specially enhanced blends at extra cost to ease the need for supplimentation.

Regards

Si.

popsock

26-10-05, 11:15

Instant Ocean should never be called a fish-only system salt as its a top class salt. What you're really annoyed with is not whether there are salts that are labelled fish-only or not, but rather that a top class salt has been labelled wrongly. And I agree with that.

Also, if you accept that Seachem's Marine salt is meant for fish systems, then you'll find that it does have (oh, I'm repeating myself!) the required pH and dKH for keeping ANY saltwater fish perfectly comfortable. The extra goodies found in instant ocean, reef crystal, Reef salt etc etc are totally meaningless in a fish-only system. Therefore to use these salts in a fish only system is a waste of money, that's why the two grades are produced.

That's me done on this thread. :thumbsup: