View Full Version : Usa- Sps Lps Much More Colourful ?
why is it when you look at the american sps lps corals on there web sites are they much more colourful , and why if say an elegance coral is banned by cities , can they still sell them , i thought that cities bans were worldwide , or is this the good old UK getting shaffted again?
Originally posted by jaggy@Aug 18 2005, 13:11
why is it when you look at the american sps lps corals on there web sites are they much more colourful , and why if say an elegance coral is banned by cities , can they still sell them , i thought that cities bans were worldwide , or is this the good old UK getting shaffted again?
the main problem regarding colour is the cherry picking that the us market do.
and we get the crap? lol and cant import from the us !
absolutely!!!!
:lol:
lets be honest though if i were in the usa i cant see me picking brown acros out and sending the coloured ones to blighty!
:lol: :lol:
rockster2599
18-08-05, 14:22
Firstly I believe (correct me if Im wrong) that Cites legislation is voluntary, some in the USA just ignore it (some do here too but do it less blatantly by miss-classification of corals). Secondly greater market=more choice and better equipment. Thirdly I think (and this is only an opinion) the greater market in the USA has fostered a collector culture for rare colourful coral frags. This means that their top end hobbyists (those that are more likely to post tank pics on the net) will pay massively inflated prices for something a little rare or colourful (go to US e.bay and type in acanthastrea or blastomussa $$$$).
Rockster
STM & Watford Aquarium have stock that matches the US stuff. Also alot of the stock pics (on US sites) are under 20K's to make the colours more vivid.
the only problem with watford or stm you need to go there to see the good stuff , and that would be a 2 day journy for me ...... they never sell there good stuff mail order .....
Nice stuff does arrive on these shores, it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. The US market is massive and as a result a huge proportion of collected specimens find their way there. Another reason for colour could be down to reduced shipping times to the US from the collecting stations..ie less stress on the coral/animal etc (IMO). Re the 'collector culture' in the US, yea I beleive this too, on the rare occasion we get a blassto etc then no way would it fetch the same price here as the US.
It would appear the same rings true with fish also, the rarer more collectable fish go to Japan and the Far East where stupid money changes hands, makes sense for the guys catching the stuff to send it where they get top buck for it.
This is all IME/IMO, there are a load of LFS owners that have been at this years and will give a better picture of the story than me I'm sure.
Originally posted by jaggy@Aug 18 2005, 13:27
the only problem with watford or stm you need to go there to see the good stuff , and that would be a 2 day journy for me ...... they never sell there good stuff mail order .....
ditto....ditto....ditto
:P
the us does get to cherry pick a lot of the best corals but u have to look how many more reefers there are in the us ,compared to the uk, if you were a collector where would you sell to ,1. the biggest market who will take a massive amount of corals and are nearer to you or 2. the uk who have a small market and extra shipping costs and time.Also the shipping time will effect the sps colour ,they do tend to loose it very qiuckly when stressed.
the skill is to buy sps with potentail look for a little bit of colour ,under the right conditions they will colour up as good as any us acros, i got many a bargin this way and its far more satisfiying.
Andy.
Originally posted by jaggy@Aug 18 2005, 14:27
the only problem with watford or stm you need to go there to see the good stuff , and that would be a 2 day journy for me ...... they never sell there good stuff mail order .....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The grass is always greener huh,
my angle concerning this is, if I want natural sea-water its a 2 day journey........................... ;)
:lol: :lol: get a milk lorry , clean it out i will meet you half way
CITES regulations are not voluntary, however some of the bans only apply to certain countries! Go figure. :blink:
crap , always wanted an elegance coral ! ^_^ :whistling:
Singapore tanks are always full of absolute stunners! bright blues/pinks/yellows everything.
And all I say is crap green/biege or brown ones for £50 each.
Stm have some more colourfull ones in but its hard to tell as everytime ive been the sps tank has been under extremely blue halides - almost actinic so the colour would look alot different once you get it home.
Still not much for the US and singapore imports.
Singapore tanks are always full of absolute stunners! bright blues/pinks/yellows everything.
So would ours be if we could walk to the closest reef and collect our own;)
Not saying this does happen but its a possibility :D
The only shop i have been to who has nice coloured SPS is Watford Aquarium
who have some lovely corals that can definatly compete with the Singapore/USA examples
Most other shops i go to just have the usual Brown/Green leftovers that no one wants and then try and sell them for £60 :whistling:
Elliott
Originally posted by maestro@Aug 18 2005, 16:22
Singapore tanks are always full of absolute stunners! bright blues/pinks/yellows everything.
And all I say is crap green/biege or brown ones for £50 each.
Stm have some more colourfull ones in but its hard to tell as everytime ive been the sps tank has been under extremely blue halides - almost actinic so the colour would look alot different once you get it home.
Still not much for the US and singapore imports.
That's hardly a fair comparison though maestro. I mean, I've seen far eastern tanks with specificly coloured lights on individual corals to highlight their colours. Red lights over pink hysterix for example.
I'll try to find the example!
Plus for those further north Mark Howarth has some amazing corals in on a regular basis.
Originally posted by Nath+Aug 18 2005, 16:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nath @ Aug 18 2005, 16:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-maestro@Aug 18 2005, 16:22
Singapore tanks are always full of absolute stunners! bright blues/pinks/yellows everything.
And all I say is crap green/biege or brown ones for £50 each.
Stm have some more colourfull ones in but its hard to tell as everytime ive been the sps tank has been under extremely blue halides - almost actinic so the colour would look alot different once you get it home.
Still not much for the US and singapore imports.
That's hardly a fair comparison though maestro. I mean, I've seen far eastern tanks with specificly coloured lights on individual corals to highlight their colours. Red lights over pink hysterix for example.
I'll try to find the example!
Plus for those further north Mark Howarth has some amazing corals in on a regular basis. [/b][/quote]
I wasnt having a go at stm but what I really meant was this.
Stm corals are more colourfull than the rest ive been too but to be fair to the other shops stm keep their corals under almost actinic lighting or have done everytimes ive visited.
And imo even under actinics they are no match for the singapore tanks but as you say, those tanks may be virtually on the beach using nsw etc
Garry thomas
18-08-05, 17:00
It may sound as tho the u/s get a better pick but one of the reasons is survivability. Where certain specimens especially tooth corals which do not travel well. It is a far less stressful trip to the u/s than to old blighty!
so do sps corals look better under 20k lighting?
Originally posted by jaggy@Aug 18 2005, 17:04
so do sps corals look better under 20k lighting?
They appear more colourfull
Look at this guys tank from singapore, lighting is only 6 t5's
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.p...topic=29707&hl= (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29707&hl=)
Originally posted by jaggy@Aug 18 2005, 17:04
so do sps corals look better under 20k lighting?
Uh oh, dont be having a knee-jerk reaction to that statement now Jaggy :lol:
Somewhat further from the required or necessary source of light SPS require though, swings and roundabouts Im afraid.
They look GREAAAT, but not so good for the stock.
Lighting reef tanks can be a bit like the Budget, you get given with one hand and taken with the other.
If you got the possibility to see some privatly owned GERMAN tank you will get an idea how big is their market
Mayby the USA market is the biggest but the german one is the best
Anything is shipped to Usa, japan and then Germany
IMO we should try to commence with our european more often
:thanx:
bunglehaze
18-08-05, 17:22
There is also a bit of a trading 'secret handshake' with the likes of Walt Smith International whereby only certain traders get access to the cream of the corals, but then the yanks pay a lot for them!
I have yet to see ANY of the pieces over here that you see festooning US tanks, but you can find them if you look really really hard (take Simon Clarks corals for example) Another thing to take into consideration is most of the coral systems in the UK shops are simply not designed to bring out the colour of corals when they arrive after import, so a really bright piece may look dark brown when you see it could turn into something special if its kept at home under the right conditions.
Take my tank for example, I know my fish stock is way too high, and as a result my organics will be above the level I would like. I dont run a skimmer (miracle mud system) or phosphate remover (although I am changing this) and as a result most of my corals look mediochre to say the least, in one of the more dedicated SPS tanks it would probably change.
The table acro I have just found is probably the most stunning colony I have seen for a while over here although I have just got a frag of a pearler from Karl @ SAS and that is just droolworthy.
They are here, maybe not as prolifically as it seems in the US, but you have to have a keen eye, the right system and be in the right place at the right time.
cheers
leigh :D
bunglehaze
18-08-05, 17:33
Oh yeah, I forgot... Quite a lot of the US reefers heavily (and I mean heavily) over saturate their pictures when they post. Its so obvious it makes you cringe sometimes..
cheers
leigh :D
Originally posted by Nath+Aug 18 2005, 15:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nath @ Aug 18 2005, 15:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-maestro@Aug 18 2005, 16:22
Singapore tanks are always full of absolute stunners! bright blues/pinks/yellows everything.
And all I say is crap green/biege or brown ones for £50 each.
Stm have some more colourfull ones in but its hard to tell as everytime ive been the sps tank has been under extremely blue halides - almost actinic so the colour would look alot different once you get it home.
Still not much for the US and singapore imports.
That's hardly a fair comparison though maestro. I mean, I've seen far eastern tanks with specificly coloured lights on individual corals to highlight their colours. Red lights over pink hysterix for example.
I'll try to find the example!
Plus for those further north Mark Howarth has some amazing corals in on a regular basis. [/b][/quote]
Yea alot of jap tanks use red spotlights to pick out certain species, big thread on reefcentrals sps forum a few months back looked into it.
And FWIW I agree with 'Lukmek', do a search for german reef tanks and see what you can find...some proper stunning setups over there from the guys that were doing things 'the right way' before most of us even heard the phrase 'reef tank'.
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 17:52
This is the bigest myth in the UK reefing comunity.
Yes the yanks get elegance corals on regular basis, but when it comes to acro's we have the same choice.
IMO
Si
Uh oh, dont be having a knee-jerk reaction to that statement now Jaggy
Somewhat further from the required or necessary source of light SPS require though, swings and roundabouts Im afraid.
They look GREAAAT, but not so good for the stock.
Lighting reef tanks can be a bit like the Budget, you get given with one hand and taken with the other.
i have 20 k already :P :P :P
I have been Reefkeeping 2 years now and i have to say in that time i have only
ever seen 2 or 3 really stunning to die for pieces of SPS
How can we have the same choice of SPS as the US?
Elliott
CoralCulture
18-08-05, 19:02
As you know Andy (& Marc) the "good stuff" can be got if you can put the effort in...I proved that one :-) as Marc said, its far easier/cheaper due to location to get the traditional indo. stock.
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 19:10
Also if shop got the good stuff so to speak......... Would you all pay for it?
No is the answer to that everyone wants it for as cheap as they can get it.
Take a look at thread in reefs now "Wanted Large SPS but without paying hundreds for them".
How many of you would really put your hands in your pocket and say I have got to have that!!!!!! an sod the price.
I see it loads people in LFS saying if i buy that that and that how much discount do I get.
Rant over
Originally posted by Simon@Aug 18 2005, 19:10
Also if shop got the good stuff so to speak......... Would you all pay for it?
No is the answer to that anyone wants it for as cheap as they can get it.
Take a look at thread in reefs now "Wanted Large SPS but without paying hundreds for them".
How many of you would really put your hands in your pocket and say I have got to have that!!!!!! an sod the price.
I see it loads people in LFS if saying if buy that that and that how much discount do I get.
Rant over
At the moment though we are paying for poor quality goods, Its seems in this country we are ripped of for everything.
Why should we pay more just because we want corals that dont look like crap? I bet we already pay alot more than other countries as it is.
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 19:16
At the moment though we are paying for poor quality goods, Its seems in this country we are ripped of for everything.
Why should we pay more just because we want corals that dont look like crap? I bet we already pay alot more than other countries as it is.
Thank you you proved my point inside 4 minutes
What point simon?
That we wouldnt pay more because we are paying over the odds as it is?
I think reefers have been taken for mugs in this country with regards to sps prices and quality
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 19:22
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_58_46_101996.jpg
Would you pay £50 for a 1inch piece?
reef farmers undata (http://www.reeffarmers.com/limited_montiporaundatatrue_frag.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.reeffarmers.com/limitedmontiporaundatatrue.htm&h=334&w=375&sz=54&tbnid=TfrkmghTYlMJ:&tbnh=105&tbnw=118&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmontipora%2Bundata%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26lr%3D)
i think personal for myself i would rather pay £50 for a bit of that rather than £45 for a large brown acro , i mean how many of us really go to someone elses tank and say wow i have never seen that before............. :blink:
i mean look at thesehttp://www.ultimatereef.net/uploads/limited_balitricolor_tiny.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploads/limited_ultimateblue_tiny.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploads/limited_watermelonalieneye_tiny.jpg
EnglishReefer
18-08-05, 19:52
Who gives a **** what colour they are when they are fresh off the boat? (so to speak :-) ), more times than not they will change colour according to your lighting and water conditions so why be mugged off buying over priced acros just because they have some nice colour when they land in the lfs tanks.
The US is a pretty big market and somewhat closer than we are to the reefs, makes pretty good sense to sell to the biggest market with the least agro.
Go buy some brown acros cheap and look after them the way they need to be kept for a year or so, then compare pics with US sps tanks - theirs aint no better than ours.
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 20:05
No different to these
Ed Miller shipment
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_128_20_51743.jpg
Pokey shop local to me
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_128_20_16176.jpg
Mark AKA 17000ltrs
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_128_20_20096.jpg
The undata came from STM
I can find a few more
si you know i feel the exact same way as you on this people want thigs cheep as possible
i mean look at this site in america and then judge on prices {you pay for what you get}
http://www.coralfanatics.com/LPS_Corals.html
you want good colours then you have to pay in any counrty that is hard to get them, its the same in every trade, they are harder to find so demand more money, america still gets brown corals, but they aint plasterd all over the web are they, and dont forget corals look very good in macro so many websites put these pictures up.
no one is intending to rip you off this is an expensive hobby and so it costs, but as long as you keep the coral alive its worth it imo :thumbsup:
They are nice corals but nothing compared to the stunning singapore tanks on here
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/danano1/23Jun05008danano.jpg
only due to the fact that due to costings we tend to space out our corals further, there are many tanks hat look that good imo
suks for one had great colour
as with both simons
jonocks got some good bits in his to
and kevins got shed loads of decent pieces to
just have to travel and put the effort in :thumbsup:
SPS Hoover
18-08-05, 20:54
Maestro.
There is nothing and i mean nothing in that tank, that you cant get over here.
1. IF.........you take time to look properly.
2. IF you know what your looking AT when you look.
3. IF you have the experience to know what will and wont colour up.
The blues are predominantly A.Paralis , the platers various Montis and two A.Efflorescens. the rest are your usual pink hystrixes etc.
There is nothing unusual apart from a carfull bit of photo saturation tweaking in that pick that isnt possible over here.
The problem is that less experienced keepers dont understand that you never BUY corals that are that strong in colouration...........
You gain experience and 'grow' them 'Into' those examples.
nick ive said it before and ill say it again that shipment is the best ive seen anywhere(good job i got there first) :whistling:
you donot have to buy your acro's with great colour most of my best pieces were bought brown (except yours nick)
simon ive got a big piece of the same type of undata which i got from stm(came in with some efflo's which is 6 inches + and was tan/brown when i got it (cost me £25) now looks like yours
i also cant ever remember paying more that £60 for an acro and some of the pieces i have looking on the Us forums go for twice as much for an 1/2 inch piece.
i tend to look for shape now more than colour.
if your prepared to wait and put in a bit of hard work , you can get the Us type colour in the uk as suk , simon , and may others can prove, it just takes hard work
and if marc ever gets round to taking some pics of my tank i could show you(hint hint) :D
I personally would be willing to pay serious money for any SPS with decent
colouration rather than waste £50 or so on a brown Acro
I just don't see the point of buying the brown stuff if it doesn't colour up then you have wasted money
I wouldn't mind spending £100 or so on a Montipora Undata like Simon has
Elliott
simon garratt
18-08-05, 21:06
Maestro.
They are nice corals but nothing compared to the stunning singapore tanks on here
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_58_46_57164.jpg
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_58_46_43290.jpg
No offence. But absolute claptrap..............I think its more the case that the average brit rarely spends the money on the kit required to atchieve these results, and in all truthfullness, simply lack the knowledge or skill to both pick potentially good corals from a selection, or care for them in a manner that is inducive to good colouration.
Mr Clark, is one of those who can. I assure you. ;)
much to my annoyance. :rolleyes:
Si.G
got to say i agree, most of the frags ive given away (even when put in to another stunning set ups)slowly tend to loose there colours or change it does not take much to effect them,buying acros which already have great colour doesnot guarantee anything, even in the best of setups ,alot will change colour anyway there are so many different factors involved , you would be wasteing your money buying expensive corals just for there colour.
buying acros which already have great colour doesnot guarantee anything, even in the best of setups ,alot will change colour anyway there are so many different factors involved , you would be wasteing your money buying expensive corals just for there colour.
i couldn't agree more and from reading other threads on this subject ages ago i now look for growth form rather than colour as you can pretty much guarantee it will change colour anyway.
craig
If anyone can get a tank to look as good as that one I posted then fair play to them.
I dont mean to cause offence but im just frustrated that after spending countless hours visiting shops all over I still didnt see any that I would say are stunning and most, probably as much as 90 % were brown or geen and completly dull even though the price tags were still very high.
The best I saw were at stm after they had a new shipment, but as I say it was hard to judge them under actinics.
Maestro as ive already said ,in the right conditions stunning colour will happen naturally ,its no good looking for ready made colour ,look for speices ,not colour and make sure your tank fundamentals are spot on , or your wasting your money.ive had brown turn blue , brown turn green,brown turn purple,even a brown millipora turn dayglow pink (ask marc at watford) but as simon g says you do need to have a near perfect setup and the knowledge to know what to look for .
you also have to remember brown is beautiful too ,ive got brown acro's that i got brown and will always stay brown (with blue tips mind) no matter what happens ,but i wouldnt want to change them . :thumbsup:
god i need a better camera as some of mine could go in there to, you guys need to know what your looking for !!
i mean no offence but i buy brown from tmc and they turn out great its looking for potentail, not colour !!
like si said its finding the right pieces and looking around for them, if you wont travel then you wont get a good variety :thumbsup:
Originally posted by yellowtang89@Aug 18 2005, 20:03
I personally would be willing to pay serious money for any SPS with decent
colouration rather than waste £50 or so on a brown Acro
I just don't see the point of buying the brown stuff if it doesn't colour up then you have wasted money
I wouldn't mind spending £100 or so on a Montipora Undata like Simon has
Elliott
are you made of money little elliot :huh: prsonaly i would rather buy a cheeper acro and providing condtions are good etc etc and have the pleasure of watching it potentialy colour up over time!
by all means though elliot go and spend silly money on an very nice acro! but be prepared to repeatidly bang your head against a brick wall if it goes brown!
for example;
i had three acro frags that i got for free when i got some LR of a chap breaking down a tank,they were brown under his 150w halides.they were put in my dads previous tank under t5s(arcadia luminaire)and in two weeks they were bright green! :wub: we then moved them on to another tank to be looked after under a 250w and a 400w halide(Mike Angels) and they went like this!shots (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41043&hl=nasotang)
some nice pics on this topic now! please keep showing off! :thumbsup: Nick
Originally posted by andy j@Aug 18 2005, 22:02
Maestro as ive already said ,in the right conditions stunning colour will happen naturally ,its no good looking for ready made colour ,look for speices ,not colour and make sure your tank fundamentals are spot on , or your wasting your money.ive had brown turn blue , brown turn green,brown turn purple,even a brown millipora turn dayglow pink (ask marc at watford) but as simon g says you do need to have a near perfect setup and the knowledge to know what to look for .
you also have to remember brown is beautiful too ,ive got brown acro's that i got brown and will always stay brown (with blue tips mind) no matter what happens ,but i wouldnt want to change them . :thumbsup:
Thanks for the reply
How do i tell if a frag will colour up or not, is there signs to look for?
Genetics aswell as conditions must play a part because in the wild there are idenetical species next to each other that are very different colours so how will I know if a brown will colour up or if a brown is just genetically a brown?
they dont get what they need in shops properlly and when they are brightly coloured it means they have only been in for a few days, personally i would rather buy from a rested stock that i know has travelled well, like in a thread from watford showing his stocks he states they have lost colour since shipping so what if they will get it back in time!!
Well - I have yet another view.
Quality
I have been to Walts, SDC and International Marine in LA - and the quality on sale if no different to the UK at all, I have also dived on the reef in tonga that most of the rock and corals that were bought in cites permits it is aledged - all the sam stuff, and the corals are still the same!
Supply and Demand
In the US the market is huge, I seem to recall a figure of 60% of the worlds corals end up in the US.
I have seen tanks in the US that are stunning, but most are not a patch on the average tank in the UK, and of course we only ever notice the really good ones, but also who posts craps pics of tanks - no one.
Availabilty
The US market, IMO seem to have a total disregard for Cites............ BUT not as much as others see below.! You name it and I can walk into my good LFS tomorrow and buy or order it, if I wanted to jump on a plane to LA I would be able to pick from a selection, if I knew where to go.
Now going the other way - the tanks are run in differerent way, with a fastidious attention to detail, and all of the very best kit usually, but the same applies interms of photo posting, we all remember the stunning tanks like to two Si's etc, as will always come back to them as a reference, so we remember and go back.
Both Hong Kong, and Singapore have Fish streets, which are amazing, whole streets of aquarium outlets, the prices would make you cry, the husbandary is often at best, the the turnover is huge so the margins work for the vendors and in both cities, you know it is worth the trip, because you will find what you need. And you can get everything, just ask to look in the back room (I kid you not! Cites - what is that?)
Now if you want expensive, get on a plane and go to Japan - the quality is amazing, but pulse will set you back £50 fo the bits we trade for free!
BUT the most worrying thing I have noticed by being lucky enough to have seen both markets so closly is that the live stock is DISPOSABLE! - I kid you not, if the coral does not colour up, it goes in the sump at best, but of not in the bin such is the price and ease of access, no respect is given to the product.
Its all about economics, and what we show off for others to see, if you make the effort, and put the time in, you get the same results!
Rant over - it is all a bit close to my
I'm hardly an expert....but from looking at the members tanks section, and having seen a few of them in person, I don't really understand the debate. I mean, just look at them.. Some are actually too bright for my taste - browns and greens come in many desirable shades...... :lol:
Effort, patience, the ability to swallow pride and grovel to be put in the waiting list for a tiny frag, I guess that it all counts. Don't expect what you want to be available when you want it, expect to visit shops and come home with nothing. It may take a few years to collect the stuff that makes you happy. Don't tell me it's not possible, because clearly it is very possible.
If it's a bit difficult...well, that makes the achievement more enjoyable.
Now, if you want six large colonies by last Thursday, well that's interior decorating, something else altogether. Anybody can do that, no interest for me.
:wacko:
:)
kim
Maestro, Genetics do play aroll as i said a true brown acro will prob stay brown no matter what you do, tip colour in acro's is normally a sign of new growth many acro have this and its is a form a protection from uv radiation,(simon g will prob be able to tel u more) but your tank water quility and lighing is s the most important thing imo ,then u need to look though coral speices,look though the US sites or books for what your after then look for these in your lfs,with experience you can tell what will colour up and what wont ,i tend to find that some of the finer stuctured acro's tend to colour up easyer that say stag horns imo.but theres no guarantee.also you need to experiment with positioning of the corals ,i tend not to secure them straight away in one position ,after aclimitising them i will slowly move them aroun the tank and wait for colour change,one acro may get great colour directly under your lamps while another may need to be positioned at the bottom of the tank,again this comes with trail and error and experience.do some reading on the Us sites into this and get a jist of where different corals need to be placed.if your buying even slightly coloured corals or frags and there browning out i would loook at your tank conditions first,
I've only skimmed through the thread again as it's late so forgive me if any of this has been said previously.
re the corals in dano's tank being superior to what we get...well sure its a nice tank, it may have been tweaked in PS but we can get stuff like that here. As Andy said earlier Nick proved it with one or two shipments, I had some blinding pieces in last summer, solid blue, sky blue etc. There was one common denominator in both shipments...people queing at the door for them as the boxes were offloaded. We mentioned the 'collector culture' in the USA earlier and although it isnt on a grand scale yet there are still plenty of people always ringing round the stores to find out who is getting what and when. People like Andy & Simon to name only a couple. I know it's hard to travel about long distance for corals but sometimes if you want the best you need to sacrifice some petrol :) IIRC Nicks shipment(s) were all good size wild pieces settting him back more then a fair some of money, mine were aquacultured....but again costly...all down to colour.
Not to blow my own trumpet but the corals that have been posted to this thread I bet most board sponsers have had on shipments , not every month I grant you but had them in for those wanting to seek them out.
Most other shops i go to just have the usual Brown/Green leftovers that no one wants and then try and sell them for £60
Elliot, brown & green they maybe but leftovers isnt always the case, whatever the colour the freight charges are the same . I doubt many lfs will offload a piece that cost them good ££ to import for peanuts. A good percentage of the sps you see that are brown, given proper care and conditions will take on a different colour after a few weeks/months. You've seen the display tank, 90% of the stock in there is taken from the same choice you the customer have..whereas it's not close to andy's or simons its not doing bad considering the monthly mishaps I have ......patience is the word :)
I personally would be willing to pay serious money for any SPS with decent
colouration rather than waste £50 or so on a brown Acro
I just don't see the point of buying the brown stuff if it doesn't colour up then you have wasted money
I wouldn't mind spending £100 or so on a Montipora Undata like Simon has
I dont think its a 'waste', your assuming that anything over a certain value has to have colour or its not worth a look in. That 50 quid boring brown acro may turn into something stunning which you can then frag and sell on or trade for equally nice bits.
Is that boring brown coral still a 'waste'. How would you feel if you forked out on a 100 quid high colour acro that bleached out over nite, I'd feel pretty sick.
No offence. But absolute claptrap..............I think its more the case that the average brit rarely spends the money on the kit required to atchieve these results, and in all truthfullness, simply lack the knowledge or skill to both pick potentially good corals from a selection, or care for them in a manner that is inducive to good colouration.
This isnt directed at anyone on this forum but I hear exactly where your coming from!
Patience ,Patience, Patience, phone call, phone call, phone call ,Patience ,Patience and dare I say it more phone calls & patience. If I had a quid for every time Ive said this i'd be well off but NONE of the best tanks ive come across where achieved in a few months....give them time and they will grow and flourish.
simon garratt
19-08-05, 08:54
Very well put marc.
And honestly, I didnt intend offence to anyone by my comment. In 90 % of cases where ive talked to people struggling to get good colouration/growth there is nearly always a simple underlying cause. The system isnt clean enough, be it through lack of skimming, overstocking with fish for the filtration system, dusty/silty water clarity, elevated Po4/No3 levels, pH/temp instability or simply low levels ir DkH/Ca etc. The truth of the matter is that exeptional colouration only comes from well handled, well established (securely fastned) stock, kept under fastideous conditions. It may take months or even years for some corals to settle down properly and bloom, and all the time that this is going on, you the keeper has to stay on top of things. One month of neglect can mean 6 months hard work getting things back again.
Trust me. the corals are out there right under your noses disguised as browns with just a hint of colour due to shipping stresses. Or they are allready in your tank. All you have to do, is get the conditions right, and take some time to read up on the individual families/strains to the stage where you can recognise a coral species visually by structure rather than colour alone...........that will come back later if you get it right.
Thats what makes it so much fun. And occasionally so frustrating.
If you want a stuunning reef, then look at two yrs minimum. If you want an instant reef..............
Then your in the wrong game im afraid........... :D
Nice thread.......... :thumbsup:
as i said since i have started to use NSW the brown acro frags in my tank has started to change. looks like bright green and purple at presnet ,but just small bits on the corals so far..... camera wont pick em up well , to cheap and nasty lol
wayne in norway
19-08-05, 09:02
I've been to plenty of shops in the US, and seen plenty of brown corals, so it's not all roses. What I have seen in the US are plenty of setups with lighting that will spank most reefers in the UK, and setups that are properly handled. If you take most all of those brightly coloured corals, the first thing they will do in a new tank is brown out, and stay that way if it isn't just so.
I would agreeyou see far better lps in the US, hoever I don't believe it is CITES that is the problem ,rather it is extra EU legislation.
If you really want the decent stuff then, get on a plane to Germany, and do the paperwork. If you think that good corals are jsut going to fall into your hands at an lfs , then dream on. And accept the cost. You're not being ripped off - I have no idea why people think tropical marine livestock should be cheap considering the costs, travel, hassle involved
why is it when you look at the american sps lps corals on there web sites are they much more colourful
i doubt they have better SPS coral, they just take better photos.
elegance coral is banned by cities ,
Since when is the elegance corals banned. We always get them in New Zealand as they are on my cities permit.
so if Germany has good corals etc , wht cant we import from there or get them ups or dhl ed accross since we are all in the european market , ( what crap i know some one that customs let a samuri sword through , but stopped a shark skin belt to find what sort of shark it was from ........)we should be able to shop from germany just like this country , but good old uk has to much red tape as usual , and wants to rip people off more , ie certificates , permits etc etc .....
Originally posted by reef@Aug 19 2005, 10:29
why is it when you look at the american sps lps corals on there web sites are they much more colourful
i doubt they have better SPS coral, they just take better photos.
elegance coral is banned by cities ,
Since when is the elegance corals banned. We always get them in New Zealand as they are on my cities permit.
here in the uk we get virtualy none through on lists maybe one or two a year throughout the entire country
dont forget that cites allows for a certain number to be removed from the reef and they end up in other places to here :thumbsup:
Wayne's right on this one. I've been doing some research on the whole import/export system (I'm a law student) and CITES really isn't the problem. All stony corals are in appendix 2 of CITES which only stipulates that you must have a certain licensing system. The US is caught by this as much as we are. None of the anthozoans are in Appendix 1 (which essentially prohibits their importation for commercial use) so it really has very little bearing.
Edit> Though JimmyJayz does have a point that when supply is limited the corals concerned will probably be parcelled out in proportion to the relative market sizes. I.e. lots to the US, less to here :(
The difference between here and the US is the EU's SRG and the "negative opinions" it can publish about particular species. Again these only apply to import. If someone has one of the listed organisms he can still frag it and give it away/sell it.
Some vendors have taken a wholly commendable attitude to this situation and sell these corals but only to aquarists who they know can take care of them. Clayton, for example, sells Blasto Merletti perfectly legally but you have to put your case to him before you can buy it. I would dearly love to own some but my current tank isn't mature/stable/big enough and I wouldn't dream of asking him to sell me some until it is.
As I said above I am still doing my research and I will publish the full results of that research here when it is complete but I can't see anything to stop us importing acans, micros, rics etc in every shape and colour under the sun. Some aquarists I know actually do order from the states and have valid import and export permits for these very corals. All it takes is for people, when they get these corals, to give a small frag to a relaible acqu-culturist and then everyone could be able to enjoy them.
I much prefer that approach to the one taken by the above mentioned website (reef farmers) where "limited edition" corals are only sold once a month to one buyer so that they know that they have something that very few other people have! I find that hard to reconcile with the ethics of responsible reefkeeping.
Right, rant over.... :)
I hope some of that helped clear up a few points. I will try and get my comprehensive article out ASAP, the above is somewhat sketchy.
when dealing with cites stocks they are allowed to remove a total unit count of say 1000 per year and 900 will go to america and 100 to europe so we get lucky to see them at all, and its all down to the govenments of the countries they are shipped from, mostly 3rd world and no to intreasted unless it makes them money so makes it harder still
but this is drifting off topic, the statement was why cant we get the corals america have {basicly}
and the answer is we can if we try hard enough as consumers, there are shops in the uk that get ellegence corals in from time to time, is about building a relationship with the shops so that when or if they get one they call you and you go get it
ricordias are easy to get but fecth a high tag price, as are the zoo's and acros and montis, there is very little we cant get, its about knowing what youre looking at when your there and taking it then :thumbsup:
rockster2599
19-08-05, 10:16
Wow,
I have learned a lot on this thread, thanks folks. :thumbsup:
Rockster
Doh, I edited my post to entirely agree with you while you wrote your second post! Sorry, not trying to backtrack!
Once again I agree, building up the relationships and increasing the market size is the best way to go.
:thumbsup: no problem mate, but lets get this across to although the americans are getting say for example 90 percent of the decent stock they are still taking 90% of what you class as rubbish stock
and people looking to increase colours in acros have you tried increasing your photo period to say 12 hours or even more !! that generaly helps :lol:
Again I agree (stop reading my sodding mind! :lol: ) I never made any comments about rubbish stock. I agree with most of the people on her that most of the brown/green stuff colours up nicely when kept properly.
I run PC lighting so I already have gone to 12:12 cycle. Any more and in the long term you can start to get problems with circadian regulation (or so I'm told ;) )
Originally posted by jimmyjayz@Aug 19 2005, 09:52
and people looking to increase colours in acros have you tried increasing your photo period to say 12 hours or even more !! that generaly helps :lol:
Excellent thread, very interesting!
Are you serious about the 12 hour light cycle? If so care to go into more detail, is that 12 hours of "main" lights with actinics either side of that?
what side affects are there, hotter water, more algae etc?
regards,
greg
bunglehaze
19-08-05, 12:05
One of my favourite acros is a brown one, given to me as a frag off Simon M a while ago its now a bit large for a frag. It has colour potential but as I know I overstock my system its not likely to get there in a hurry, but is has something about it.....
cheers
leigh :D
rockster2599
19-08-05, 13:02
So I guess the $60 000 question is how do you spot colour potential?
Rockster
Most people seem to say that it's mainly experience.
This thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...agnifying+glass (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=645933&highlight=magnifying+glass)
...was mentioned on these boards fairly recently. I think the general principles probabyl apply to most corals,
HTH
wayne in norway
19-08-05, 13:50
I was rather under the impression that lengh of photoperiod was irrelevant - colour develops as a protective response to the maximum light at any point in time.
So rather than running 250's 12 hours a day, if you want colour, turn on your 400's for 4 or 5 hours.
I think its one of those areas where it's impossible to generalise. You may get just as good colouraion from more lights for less time but you'll start to cause problems if you deviate too far from the natural day light cycle they would experience in the wild.
Quite a lot of recent research (admittedly not on corals) has shown that few organisms benefit from unnatural day-night cycles. For example, most species of plants which have been tested show significanlty reduced growth patterns if exposed to more light per day than they would get in the wild. In the example I'm thinkng of, even going over the 12 hour mark causes reduced growth in the long run.
Most corals come from pretty close to the equator and when you factor in refraction and reflection from the water they may get fairly close to the standard 10 hrs full lighting + 1 hr dim lighting on either side. However this will alter with depth and other factors.
Believe it or not we have the same problem here! From my experience, collectors do collect brown corals, because they will collect whatever sells. For years all we got were brown and if lucky green acros and usually of the same type. People got sick of it and stopped buying them. Retailers would say, how come youre not buying SPS anymore, we replied how many brown corals do you think we want. They started putting pressure on the collectors and suddenly we started seeing great coloured corals and types we had never seen before. More people started keeping SPS and dealers got more in. Now the situation has never been better.
Gary.
well i know plenty of peole who run 12 hour cycles, i am running 13 hours on mine at the moment with 100 watt's of t5 for a further 2 hours each side and seeing no ill effect infact colours are developing far more now :thumbsup:
bearing in mind that 100 watt of t5 is only about 4.5 watt per square foot so a low level :thumbsup:
take back what i said about lfs in this country when i found this baby toady hehehe what you think? love torch corals :wub:now pride of place in middle of tank !
One of my recently opened lfs did a direct import of corals, and although I am not into sps, some of the sps were particualy beautiful, blues, pinks and purples, but they were quite large maybe about 7 or 8 inchs tall by about 6 inch wide, but I saw the invoice, and the cost to him was high, plus the shipping and duties, and to make a resonable profit on them, they were priced at about £200 each, now I've seen the normal brown sps for £50 - £60 and these were in a different class, but could he sell them, nope, all I heard from customers was "HOW MUCH" they finished up in his hard coral display tank, where they have grown a lot bigger and are still beautiful, but I know that he will not import directly again as it cost him a lot of money which is now sat in one of his display tanks, and remember that your lfs has to make a profit or it will go bust, (like any business) then when that happens, you will be glad to be able to buy any corals without having to make a couple of hours car journey.
Hi
Ok its my day off and Iam all the better for a bottle and a bit of red wine so I will say sorry in the morning.
Lets be honest most of you walked past the corals that simon purchased a number of corals that we have supplied Simon have sat here for weeks.
The bottom line is we bust a gut sourcing corals that are interesting and different and its only people like Simon who see the potential and buy the thing at a fair price. Some of those corals may not be pop your eyes out red or purple, but Simon understands his system and see's the potential. The last couple he bought off us you would be waiting something like 2-8 years to get a frag off Steve Tyree in the states. It had been sitting in the tanks for at least 3 weeks and everybody walked past it.
I think that amongst the serious dealers in the Uk you have a bunch of guys trying bloody hard to give you corals that look as good as the photoshopped up corals you see on the US web sites and largely getting slagged off for their efforts.
I have had the same debate with people lookiing for coloured polyps, Oh all the good ones go to the states and with some of the fiji and tonga stuff I would agree that supply is not running like a tap. But just as with Simon and acropora we had a stunning pink piece of pink polyp rock and I mean sexy pink that people had walked past for 4-5 weeks before one guy screamed manna and bought the thing.
The bottom line is in the UK its largely all here but in these days of the internet, people look in isolation at a piece of photo shop edited coral that is super vivid and then come into STM and mutter nothing interesting then.
My final rant for the night is the suspension in trade of certain species.
Its simple the americans will never get real about conservation if it affects a single dollar of income or job to a US citizen. In the words of Mr Cohen the home of the best and the worst. So take it from me the US will import whatever it can sell and to hell with conservation. I am thinking Kyoto here amongst many others. The politics are live for today and invent a solution when it really hurts us.
You guys should really be shouting its great to be european because our scientific review group is at least doing something to stop the never ending loss of species.
(now you can really tell the wines kicked in)
But joking aside people in the states are buying cataphillia and a large number are dying. Hence people like Eric Borneman are conducting surveys and trying to test the imported corals to see whats going wrong. The SRG do what they do largely in closed session and to be honest we can pretty much say they are not driven by personal or commercial interest so live with it or move to the states and gaze at your amazing reef tank full of endangered species and then get gunned down by some red neck in a dodge durango on his way back from a hunting trip to kill small furry animals.
Thank you and good night
regards Jez
Hear! Hear!
A little bit of a tangent at the end mate but well said. ;)
i agree with that mate, people just dont realise what things are
a shop near me has had 3 pieces of this in and no one will buy it at around the £40 mark for over 3 weeks what are people stupid
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploads/Acanthastera21.jpg
and they get decent hard corals in they tend to stay away from acros due to the costs from tmc as m sure you vouch for :thumbsup:
hi m8 i totally agree with you that alot of people will walk past certain corals , not notice them , then all of asudden someone sees it .... my local lfs has a small tank not more than 10 inches high full of hard and soft corals , that look stunning , he says they are the corals that never sold and stayed in his tanks , so he decided to set up a tank with them , and boy does it p*** you off you missed em in the first place , i saw my torch coral today and had to have it along with a midas blennie :wub: :wub: and orange spot goby photos to follow , but just to say i agree with you , ramble ramble , to much wine ........
Originally posted by stm@Aug 19 2005, 23:01
Hi
Ok its my day off and Iam all the better for a bottle and a bit of red wine so I will say sorry in the morning.
Lets be honest most of you walked past the corals that simon purchased a number of corals that we have supplied Simon have sat here for weeks.
The bottom line is we bust a gut sourcing corals that are interesting and different and its only people like Simon who see the potential and buy the thing at a fair price. Some of those corals may not be pop your eyes out red or purple, but Simon understands his system and see's the potential. The last couple he bought off us you would be waiting something like 2-8 years to get a frag off Steve Tyree in the states. It had been sitting in the tanks for at least 3 weeks and everybody walked past it.
I think that amongst the serious dealers in the Uk you have a bunch of guys trying bloody hard to give you corals that look as good as the photoshopped up corals you see on the US web sites and largely getting slagged off for their efforts.
I have had the same debate with people lookiing for coloured polyps, Oh all the good ones go to the states and with some of the fiji and tonga stuff I would agree that supply is not running like a tap. But just as with Simon and acropora we had a stunning pink piece of pink polyp rock and I mean sexy pink that people had walked past for 4-5 weeks before one guy screamed manna and bought the thing.
The bottom line is in the UK its largely all here but in these days of the internet, people look in isolation at a piece of photo shop edited coral that is super vivid and then come into STM and mutter nothing interesting then.
My final rant for the night is the suspension in trade of certain species.
Its simple the americans will never get real about conservation if it affects a single dollar of income or job to a US citizen. In the words of Mr Cohen the home of the best and the worst. So take it from me the US will import whatever it can sell and to hell with conservation. I am thinking Kyoto here amongst many others. The politics are live for today and invent a solution when it really hurts us.
You guys should really be shouting its great to be european because our scientific review group is at least doing something to stop the never ending loss of species.
(now you can really tell the wines kicked in)
But joking aside people in the states are buying cataphillia and a large number are dying. Hence people like Eric Borneman are conducting surveys and trying to test the imported corals to see whats going wrong. The SRG do what they do largely in closed session and to be honest we can pretty much say they are not driven by personal or commercial interest so live with it or move to the states and gaze at your amazing reef tank full of endangered species and then get gunned down by some red neck in a dodge durango on his way back from a hunting trip to kill small furry animals.
Thank you and good night
regards Jez
Nothing to say sorry about, just about spot on
Mrs Ziggy CGA
20-08-05, 00:12
Jez,
You took the words......... :thumbsup: and as I too am off duty and have had a bottle or two will not be adding anymore ;) suffice to say agree with everyword, we too have had some fantastic corals sat in tanks for weeks/months and the problem? "How Much?" :P
Sue
Originally posted by Mrs Ziggy CGA@Aug 20 2005, 01:12
Jez,
You took the words......... :thumbsup: and as I too am off duty and have had a bottle or two will not be adding anymore ;) suffice to say agree with everyword, we too have had some fantastic corals sat in tanks for weeks/months and the problem? "How Much?" :P
Sue
maybe we shuld do a subforum on sponsors area for just extremly good bits !!
people are prepared to travel, i have no problem driving 4 hours each way for the right bits to fill certain gaps, i would travel to germany and bring bits back if it were legal :thumbsup:
Mrs Ziggy CGA
20-08-05, 00:48
i would travel to germany and bring bits back if it were legal
The point is you don't need to ;)
Sue
JimmyJayz,
Where is this shop and do they have any left ;)
In relation to the Germany thing, there isn't much stopping you. According to the Wildlife Licensing and Registration service applications for import licenses from individuals are soaring! Additionally the SRG's opinions are only binding on imports into the EU (I think, only had tome to do a quick search). Once they're in they're in. :) But as stated above, you shouldn't need to unless there's a particular coral you're after which the importers can't seem to get hold of.
STM
Firstly, I love your shop. I'm coming down next week specially and bearing in mind that that is a 4 hour trip on the bike I hope you realise how much that means! I agree with what you say, most people here are arguing at cross purposes. The "serious dealers" are trying very hard on the import front and are getting great results. Additionally it seems to me (just my opinion I may be horribly wrong) that aquacultured specimins seem to be very much on the up in terms of quality and quantity in the UK.
But, there are still enough local fish stores like a few in my area which aren't doing so well in terms of stock. I'm sure these exist in the states as well but naturally courtesy of the internet we only see the better, more famous stores and so our perception of relative qualities is distorted.
At the end of the day are you going to get a larger proportion of the "good stuff" going to the US because its a bigger market but equally you're going to get a larger number of buyers. Swings and roundabouts really.
And for the record I am most certainly in favour of the SRG. My earlier comments were meant to clarify who does what. Lots of people confuse the two and it never helps to confuse your terminology, certainly not in this trade!
Hope that clears this up, see you next week!
Ed
Originally posted by Mrs Ziggy CGA@Aug 20 2005, 01:48
i would travel to germany and bring bits back if it were legal
The point is you don't need to ;)
Sue
my point was i would be willing to put the effort in if it was legal to find the right bits :thumbsup:
not that i needed to
as to the shop yes they do have 2 left but not a sponsor so pm me :thumbsup:
problem comes with moving cites stock requires more paper work, amblard have had problems with this in the past and had xhipments ciezed due to paper work, and nothing more {not doing anything dodgy i might add} :thumbsup:
Jez,
Excellent rant. Actually, I liked the end bit about CITES, even if it was a bit off-topic (but the subject was introduced earlier.....).
I think that it is fair for folks here to critique the industry, in many cases I agree (you still stock the EcoA ? ) but also I respect a robust response from somebody with, let's face it, something to lose if folks don't like the message.
Have another bottle, take Sunday off, you've deserved it.
:)
kim
Mrs Ziggy CGA
20-08-05, 22:09
Hi Kim,
I enjoy reading your replies/responses, sometimes they make me smile but usually they make me laugh because I have the feeling you enjoy playing devils advocate ;) please don't change! :P :D
I think that it is fair for folks here to critique the industry
I agree, although I like to look at it as constructive critiscism. As I see it, retailers should keep abreast of what's happening within the hobby, if we don't then how do we know/understand what the customer wants? As most of you know, Brian and I read the bb several times a day, we may not post on a daily basis but we do read and take note of threads like this. As a retailer we also read the same magazines and books that you do, and the one's we feel are good are the ones we sell and recommend. We also read the trade magazines, I'm sure there are more than one or two retailers who recieve these publications and bin them without opening them :o
I found this particular thread interesting from a retailers point of view, and on more than one occassion found myself shouting at the comp "where were you when we had those Acro's in?" or "we had loads of those what happened?"
but then I assume we were still a relatively new shop and our reputation hadn't quite got there!
but also I respect a robust response from somebody with, let's face it, something to lose if folks don't like the message.
:thumbsup: Totally back up everything Jez said, it's a difficult situation sometimes, being a retailer and a sponsor, not wanting to tread on the wrong toes, but sometimes it has to be said, just wish I could've put it the same way, unfortunately I'm not as good with my words.
Have another bottle, take Sunday off, you've deserved it.
I know that is meant for Jevs, but I'm gonna go now and have that other bottle ;) , as for taking Sunday off :wacko: IMO commercial suicide :P :D :lol:
ps Kim,
When are you going to come and see us? ;)
get gunned down by some red neck in a dodge durango on his way back from a hunting trip to kill small furry animals.
Whats wrong with that? I'm going pigeon shooting tommorrow :evil: :evil:
Watched 'Coast' last night, great program, did you see the part on the prawn boat?? for every prawn they caught there were two flounder/sole/whiting/etc they chucked back into the sea dead. Just because they are not small and furry the average London townie, sandal wearing, blah, blah, thinks there is nothing wrong with this. :wacko: :whistling:
Keeping on thread, although I haven't visited STM for aprox 3 yrs and I'm sure Jez' shop is very nice, I've got to say the general quality of SPS for sale in UK are poor. Not meant as a dig, I'm sure most LFS try their best, bur we hardly see the 'cream' now do we? anyone seen a 'blue tort' recently?? :whistling:
lol
Chris.
Keeping on thread, although I haven't visited STM for aprox 3 yrs and I'm sure Jez' shop is very nice, I've got to say the general quality of SPS for sale in UK are poor. Not meant as a dig, I'm sure most LFS try their best, bur we hardly see the 'cream' now do we? anyone seen a 'blue tort' recently??
lol
yeh in my tank , i got it from STM at the begining of last year :D :thumbsup:
and think it had been there for a while ;)
some times it just being in the right place at the right time,and knowing what to look for. :thumbsup:
The key is seeing the potential in the brown acro in the shop, knowing that it can turn into something wonderful, and even it it stayed brown it will usually have lovely bright blue growth tips.
Far better to pick up a cheapo brown bit of acro that no-one wants and watch it improve, rather paying tons for the bright pale blue piece (which by the way is probably only blue because it is stressed out) and watch it turned brown or die.
This month's TOTM winnder on RC has a great attitude of making do with whatever he can find, weak/sick looking corals and have the pleasure of nursing them back and watch them transform.
Another thing is that it's the 'grass is greener on the other side' syndrone. I had loads of people in the US asking where I get my corals from and how they can get frags... !
It's interesting that some people's idea of a reef tank is a collector's hobby, simply to go around all the shops and hunt for the most interesting piece, stick it into the tank to show off and that's it.
Being able to understand the needs of the corals, providing them with the right environment to allow them to flourish into something beautiful is far more rewarding IMHO.
The key is seeing the potential in the brown acro in the shop, knowing that it can turn into something wonderful, and even it it stayed brown it will usually have lovely bright blue growth tips.
Far better to pick up a cheapo brown bit of acro that no-one wants and watch it improve, rather paying tons for the bright pale blue piece (which by the way is probably only blue because it is stressed out) and watch it turned brown or die.
This month's TOTM winnder on RC has a great attitude of making do with whatever he can find, weak/sick looking corals and have the pleasure of nursing them back and watch them transform.
Another thing is that it's the 'grass is greener on the other side' syndrone. I had loads of people in the US asking where I get my corals from and how they can get frags... !
It's interesting that some people's idea of a reef tank is a collector's hobby, simply to go around all the shops and hunt for the most interesting piece, stick it into the tank to show off and that's it.
Being able to understand the needs of the corals, providing them with the right environment to allow them to flourish into something beautiful is far more rewarding IMHO.
well said
there is far more satisfaction in buying a brown'd out acro or getting a dull looking frag and few months later it turning from brown to blue etc.
also even the brightest of acro's bought from any shop nearly always change in some way,as tuan said its all about looking for potential. :thumbsup:
Being able to understand the needs of the corals, providing them with the right environment to allow them to flourish into something beautiful is far more rewarding IMHO.
I totally agree with that Tuan, and agree that part of the atraction of SPS is that you never know really what will happen with a frag when intoduced into your own tank.
eg. I recently broke/fragged a acro and you'd never guess the resulting frag one month on, came from the parent, as it's a totally different colour/form.
.... but i still wish it was possible to 'cherry pick' a few 'special' frags from LFS rather than other peoples tanks.
:thumbsup:
Chris.
:thumbsup: Great topic
And I remember not so long ago aksing how to keep my sacro thriving...now it's not colourful enough!!!
This is the best advise i could ever have...thanks!!!
The only down side is it's taken me 15 mins to read this post which i should have spent looking and learning about my tank :D
I think this hobby, the costs incured and the stock dont need to change. Ask yourself...why do you do it? No REALY!!!
If you want a bargin watch 'antiques road show'
:) :D :lol:
Edit...and for all the conseration'ists i only wish dendronephia was 10 X the price, even if it's techinicaly a softy :ph34r:
simon garratt
31-08-05, 01:56
Keeping on thread, although I haven't visited STM for approx 3 yrs and I'm sure Jez' shop is very nice, I've got to say the general quality of SPS for sale in UK are poor. Not meant as a dig, I'm sure most LFS try their best, bur we hardly see the 'cream' now do we? anyone seen a 'blue tort' recently??Â*
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_58_46_57164.jpg
What, This one....... ;) .........for £39.99 at a local shop...........They had another 5 as well......... :wub:
Or are we referring to A.Paralis
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1124840841/gallery_58_46_109248.jpg
£39.99 ................the same shop.
Sorry guys, but i really don't see where the argument is........fair enough, if your LFS is leaving it till late in the week to visit the wholesaler after all the best stuff is gone, then fine. But you need to 'talk' to your LFS and tell/Show them what you want. Remember that corals may only be a side line to your LFS. They may have limited knowledge themselves on what to pick up.
The stuff is out there though.
Regards
Si. :)
PS. Echoing Tuans comment.
Its not all about colour, growth pattern can be just as beautiful IMO.
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/uploads/1123606453/gallery_58_46_76275.jpg
Plain brown acro with good growth tips.......
The Escaped Ape
31-08-05, 09:26
Nothing to add on the UK situation (though I'll be trying to learn a lot more in advance of my return to the UK next feb - already planning the tank to replace my current one!).
What I can offer is a Japanese perspective.
First off, to kill off some misconceptions. The Japanese do not, on the whole, use colored spots to increase the appearance of colour. There was a fad for this 5-6 years ago, and there may be some who still do, but I've never seen this in a LFS, and hardly at all in the local magazine pictures of people's tanks.
Furthermore, there aren't actually that many great shops to buy SPS in the greater Tokyo area (roughly 50 million people). Plenty of LFS that have a limited selection, often some of which are looking pretty sickly (RTN in a display tank!). Between myself and another British friend out here, we probably know of 5 shops max that have a decent selection of SPS, and only one that we visit regularly. We both speak Japanese as well, so probably get to know of most of the best shops
In these shops there is an excellent selection, all of which tend to be available for purchase by mail order. There are a number of reasons for this:
- Japan is even closer than the US to South East Asia and maricultured stock from the Phillipines, Indonesia etc.
- Japan has its own tropical islands with coral reefs (Okinawa etc). I ordered my live rock from there. Literally taken out of the ocean, put in a box and shipped to my door in less than 24 hours. Still smelt fresh, with lots of life.
- Japan is a very wealthy country. The coral in the best SPS shop we frequent go for from 35 - 90 quid, with special offers at the 15 - 25 quid mark. You put these two things together (high disposable income and reasonably priced corals) and you have a very healthy market. Add to that the shorter distance the coral has to travel, and resulting better coloration, and you have an excellent place to buy.
Having said that, there's nothing to prevent these nice colored corals turning brown in your tank, and I echo all the comments about taking a gamble on the brown specimens!
Sorry about the long post, I hope no-one minded me butting in with my rambling! :rolleyes:
PS: apologies if there are any American spellings in here - I've been posting on US sites too long! Coming home may take a little adjustment...
Second edit: there is also an excellent nationwide network of delivery companies used to delivering temperature sensitive cargo promptly (due to the Japanese present-giving tradition which often involves sending regional specialities around the country as presents - fruit, fish, vegetables, you name it).
Just came across this whilst surfing for something else.
Not directly related however has been touched on in this thread so thought it
might be of interest.
aidyb
http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/subpage.asp...e=88§ion=27 (http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/subpage.asp?page=88§ion=27)
Tuan/Si G - Good to see you both posting again :cheers:
pink white thread (http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38162)
Seems that frag photo has made its way round the world. UK stock cant be that bad?
Or was that frag a photo from rc?
For some reason i thought it was from sig's tank.......Maybe i should read threads rather than brisking over them!!!
............ill get my coat!!
dont know what is going on there but that photo in that thread is from si g's tank scroll back to page 3 and look at the photos and its in his tank as we have seen it :thumbsup:
Hi all
Over the years we have had quite a few aquarists in from the USA and the one thing in common with them all is
WOW i wish we could get this stuff at home !!!!!!!!
the grass is always greener
Andy C
Whooah, great thread and it has answered many of my questions.
Well, may I add another point of view here? ...try stop me, I dare ya;)
I'ev recently moved over here to the UK with my wife from South Africa, and I consider myself a bit of an SPS nut (I run SA's only online community, used to run the only completely online LFS, ran a SPS only tank of 300 odd litres - ZEOvit method and I have helped my friend set-up a 800litre SPS frag farm... harvesting season is just around the corner).
Now, as far as I can see it, you guys in the UK are really spoilt for choice. Over the last few days I've been browsing around to see what is available online and I'm seriously impressed! back in SA, only one dealer of know of would get in SPS, and that was like every 3-4months and we would only get maybe 10 peices of the aquacultured stuff from Bali.
Fair enough there are a few great peices kicking around our country in various people's tanks but compared to what is offered for sale here in the UK, you guys have it SUPER easy. Frag swopping doesn't really work because everybody into SPS has a frag of what everybody else has... and then you get others who refuse to share, and they normaly have the 'different' species - but hey there are people like that everywhere.
I'm so excited to be in this country solely because of the availablity of SPS, I really can't wait to get a tank up. Infact, the UK industry is so amazing that the prices of drygoods through to livestock (never mind being spoilt for choice!) is really cheap in comparison. Many guys back home have to import the 'good' gear themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is that you guys here in the UK have nothing to be upset about, you have more choice than most countries and you should be proud of that.
I also agree with certain other UR.com members (Sorry, missed your names), it doesn't matter what colour your frag/colony is when you get it, it really does come down to species... the colour (read: envy of other reefers) will come when you pamper your tank and make it the best possible enviroment for your corals. The harder you work for your tank, the better the results will be... I guess just like everything in life:)
I look forward to meeting many of you in the next few years and to the dealers, get ready, when I come a shopping, I'm going to be buying loads of SPS:D
wayne in norway
15-05-06, 08:43
You might also want to consider that the stuff you see in websites is the creme-de-la-creme of what's available and kept. There is also a ton of browned out rubbish for sale and in peoples tanks in the US. If you can scout around the web you will also find pictures from germany, czech republic norway et al all showing fantastically coloured SPS in amazing tanks.
If you want great coloured corals in this country, and they are available,It you are going to need to your legwork, for a long while and when you get them you are going to need to treat them right for a few months. Acros and many other sps start losing the colour the moment they are collected, and disturbed, and they stay like this till they are out of distribution and in a decent tank enviroment for weeks or rather months. Then they will colour up.
It is indeed the case the grass is only greener.
What would you do if you get a great coloured acro or monti, and it browned out in 2 days in your tank. Who would you blame?
There is plenty of nice stuff if you know where to look,willingness to wait and are prepared to hunt, (or be lazy and on click on fishmans frags who has plenty of frags that with the right care and attention will turn out like some of the yanks tanks)
For example saw these at my lfs this weekend:
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h154/cyno_2006/Ebay23apr052.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h154/cyno_2006/Ebay23apr056.jpg
Oh yeah, I forgot... Quite a lot of the US reefers heavily (and I mean heavily) over saturate their pictures when they post. Its so obvious it makes you cringe sometimes..
cheers
leigh :D
Yes that's the Photoshop lighting effect :)
They may or may not have access to more colourful SPS's in the states.All I know is I've been looking for a decent sized blue coral in the UK for months with no luck:confused:
I have asked various LFS's but all I get is "we've tried but can't get any"
regards,Anthony
Gav Cornwall
16-08-06, 17:07
Interesting topic.
I think a large part of it, is that America seem to have more online shops that specialise in rare colour morphed corals, something we don't see over here.
It easy to say if you look around you can find them, but not everyone lives bang smack in the middle of the country (or even close to a decent LFS) and probably doesn't have the time or money to take a couple of days out driving up and down the country looking for quality corals.
If i was to drive to STM for example i would be spending good money on petrol that i could be spending on corals. (Something, which would bug the hell out of me)
Oddly i remember Coral Culture and Clams.co.uk use to sell their SPS colonies on their websites, I’m curious why they stopped?
I can imagine that constantly updating websites with new stock is a pain in the backside, but it probably would allow a wider selection of people to get their hands on something interesting from time to time.
THIS SUBJECT REALLY MAKES ME HOT HEADED AND IT SEEMS TO ME IN A LOT OF OTHER MATTERS WHICH I WONT GO IN TO ARE AFFECTED THE SAME WAY. ITS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT THE UK HAVE Voluntary SIGNED UP FOR THE CITIES BANS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY WAY I SEE IT WHAT WE DO NOT GET SOME ONE ELSE WILL 100%. IN MY LINE OF WORK I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANY PEOPLE REGARDING THIS MATTER AND THEY ALL HAVE SAID CORALS TURNED DOWN BY THE UK WILL BE SENT ELSE WHERE. PEOPLE IN THE US AT PRESENT ARE NOT BOTTHERED ABOUT US HERE ITS SAD. THE UK NEEDS TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THE WHOLE PIC IS AND START UP PROJECTS THAT WILL HELP THE REEFS IN OTHER WAYS INSTEAD OF HAVING THESE BANS. SORRY TO SAY IVE WRITTEN THIS HOT HEADED
THIS SUBJECT REALLY MAKES ME HOT HEADED AND IT SEEMS TO ME IN A LOT OF OTHER MATTERS WHICH I WONT GO IN TO ARE AFFECTED THE SAME WAY. ITS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT THE UK HAVE Voluntary SIGNED UP FOR THE CITIES BANS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY WAY I SEE IT WHAT WE DO NOT GET SOME ONE ELSE WILL 100%. IN MY LINE OF WORK I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANY PEOPLE REGARDING THIS MATTER AND THEY ALL HAVE SAID CORALS TURNED DOWN BY THE UK WILL BE SENT ELSE WHERE. PEOPLE IN THE US AT PRESENT ARE NOT BOTTHERED ABOUT US HERE ITS SAD. THE UK NEEDS TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THE WHOLE PIC IS AND START UP PROJECTS THAT WILL HELP THE REEFS IN OTHER WAYS INSTEAD OF HAVING THESE BANS. SORRY TO SAY IVE WRITTEN THIS HOT HEADED
no the uk are being ethical, and imo we should stick by our principals at the end of the day
there are loads of good sps comming theough now, and there is loads of good stock about its just a case of looking for it, and developing good relationships with shops, hence why si clarkes tank looks so good with lots of rareish bits he knows what things will turn into and knows lots of people and gets on with them !!
Well i've got a local shop to me and they had a shipment of corals last night, i've been and had a look today and they are some of the best specimens i've seen and they are big acro's and full of colour. I can't mention the shops name as they don't sponsor this site, but they do send corals by couror. If anyone would like any info send me a PM.
Gav Cornwall
17-08-06, 19:34
Well i've got a local shop to me and they had a shipment of corals last night, i've been and had a look today and they are some of the best specimens i've seen and they are big acro's and full of colour. I can't mention the shops name as they don't sponsor this site, but they do send corals by couror. If anyone would like any info send me a PM.
Thanks for the heads up, i agree they have some amazing corals.. :eek:
last week i picked up a pink ric yuma it cost me 35 at my lfs ive seen them on usa sites for 80 to 100 thats why we dont see meny
i think the 2 threads ( "show me your montis" and "what sps you got" ) dispel the myth about the sps being better in the usa , imho
i think your spot on johnski
i aggree to a point with a lot of wjhat has been said....
and then i look at links like this....
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=91149
seaching the usa side of things brings up 'lemmonade' sps 'alien eye' chalis etc....the list goes on.
i do genuinely believe that a lot of the really stunning stuff goes in the market auctions that these guys have regularly and that we never get to see any of this.....
lets be fair if you are a trader/importer would you sell it accross the ocean for a smaller price when you know that you can get a premium price for it by the side of the dock?
to be totaly honest the only country i would say that gets far better stock than we do is japan, as they are willing to pay the money, whould people over here pay £3-500 for that coral ? i doubt it !!! the far east will
funkyparott
21-08-06, 17:05
I would add that a certain company with the word 'clams' in the address has an amazing selection of colourful SPS frags in stock at the moment. Better than any I have ever seen at a shop. I won't post the full name because that is probably against the rules. ;)
FP
Maybe I am being a bit stupid, the only supplier I know of with clams in the name. Doesn't have SPSs on their website.
Can someone PM me the name please.
Dave
Maybe I am being a bit stupid, the only supplier I know of with clams in the name. Doesn't have SPSs on their website.
Can someone PM me the name please.
Dave
no he doesnt post them out due to losses etc as people seem to always miss te drivers etc and was fed up by it !!
Where abouts are they, can't seem to find an address on the website.
thanks
Dave
Where abouts are they, can't seem to find an address on the website.
thanks
Dave
email them for an address its appointment only tbh its the same stock heritage have had in the last few weeks ;)
funkyparott
21-08-06, 19:07
Went to Heritiage the same day and noted they had no SPS at all.
Aparently the shark pool they had previously caused a big Nitrate spike and hence why they stopped stocking them. I have been assured they are in the processing of getting SPS corals in again into some new custom tanks they are having built.
FP
there is also an excellent nationwide network of delivery companies used to delivering temperature sensitive cargo promptly
Oh I bet there are a few sponsors who wish they were Japanese!
Great thread IMO.
IME it takes patience to build up a collect of colourful corals. Either to hunt them down in the shops, or to grow them from frags. Like SiG I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a couple of solid blue/purple A.paralis from my LFS, and I've bought a load from ReefWorks and others. The colourful corals are out there - just not day in / day out. On the plus side it makes you appreciate them all the more when you do get them.
And I feel the situation is definately improving. More and more LFS are beginning to stock SPS. And there seem to be more and more frag farms setting up, whilst many of those already in operation like ReefWorks are expanding. So I feel the prospects are good and will only get better for the hobbyist.
That said, I do think the industry isn't doing itself any favours. At the moment the hobbyist seems to be expected to play hunt the thimble and try and deduce which of the many brown corals displayed by his/her LFS might be a future star. This just seems daft to me.
Surely LFS ought to keep and display their SPS stock properly? It seems ridiculous for a LFS to receive a colourful SPS only to then stick it under a T8 and watch it turn brown. Those round my way that have heard of halides seem think a 150w lamp suspended 3-4ft over a 1m x 1m tank will be sufficient...
There are clearly trade-offs to be made between lighting/flow running costs and sales receipts - but I'm not convinced most LFS have got the economics right. Many appear to prefer having a brown coral in their tanks for months, rather than dig in their pocket for decent lighting and then shift a still colourful coral in a few weeks. I understand Tuan's point about the satisfaction for the hobbyist of transforming some unpromising brown coral into a colourful centrepiece. But for me the point is we really shouldn't have to make that leap of faith!
Keith
Gav Cornwall
22-08-06, 00:26
no he doesnt post them out due to losses etc as people seem to always miss te drivers etc and was fed up by it !!
And yet they post clams out, that doesn't seem to make sense to me.
And yet they post clams out, that doesn't seem to make sense to me.
:D :D :D Anyone???
If it can take upto 6 months + for sps to settle in, colour up and start to grow in dedicated sps systems would it not take the same 'time frame' to achive this colouration in a shop (in general)?
Besides its seems that anyone who sees the potential in all the brown sps everyone else sees snaps them up before others see their potential. :confused: .........Ehhhh....:rolleyes:
Edd
:D :D :D Anyone???
If it can take upto 6 months + for sps to settle in, colour up and start to grow in dedicated sps systems would it not take the same 'time frame' to achive this colouration in a shop (in general)?
Besides its seems that anyone who sees the potential in all the brown sps everyone else sees snaps them up before others see their potential. :confused: .........Ehhhh....:rolleyes:
Edd
clams are easier and tougher when it comers to shipping they also dont loose there colour unlike sps
I've read this many times now that a brown coral in shop could change colour in your tank and I have heard you need to have an eye to see the potential in a coral.
Being new into SPS's, I haven't a clue what to look for. I searched the internet and cannot find any resources to point me in the right direction. Can anyone enlighten me or at least give me some hints at what to look for. I am sure there are many other readers of this thread in a similar position.
It doesn't worry me having to wait a few months for the colours to come out. As space is limited in my tank, I would like to have some assurance that there is a chance that they will.
thanks
Dave
I've read this many times now that a brown coral in shop could change colour in your tank and I have heard you need to have an eye to see the potential in a coral.
Being new into SPS's, I haven't a clue what to look for. I searched the internet and cannot find any resources to point me in the right direction. Can anyone enlighten me or at least give me some hints at what to look for. I am sure there are many other readers of this thread in a similar position.
It doesn't worry me having to wait a few months for the colours to come out. As space is limited in my tank, I would like to have some assurance that there is a chance that they will.
thanks
Dave
well polyp shape and trying to identify the specie will let you know what you may well be looking at.
and looking for a hint of colour in the brown will help as well
funkyparott
22-08-06, 11:29
Is it not true that frags from an established tank, multiple generations down the line stand a better chance of being easier to keep then say perhaps an ocean farmed coral?
If I go to the garden centre and purchase shrubs, I know that most of them will have been tried and tested and refined through breeding down the line so as they are more suited to the domestic situation. I can be fairly confident that the species will flower as shown on any advertising. A crude comparission I know.
Should I have to be in a hobby for 60 years donning a mac, thick framed specticals and smelling of old Holborn to be able to pick a frag that is going to hold its colour ? Thats a bit of a dinosauors attitude tbh. (I am not saying that any of the sucessful SPS members that description ;))
More often that not, if I go into a shop and ask what Genus a coral is I get blank looks. How on earth am I supposed to be able to identify the exact genus of a coral if staff can't even help? Another point that doesn't help is that some shops are somewhat secretive about where their frags have come from.
I would have thought there must be many factors in deciding whether a coral will hold, has potentional for colour including knowing about the 'mother' colony?, How long the coral has been captive in tanks (through the generations) etc etc.
FP
i still want one of these though!
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=91149
lol
More often that not, if I go into a shop and ask what Genus a coral is I get blank looks. How on earth am I supposed to be able to identify the exact genus of a coral if staff can't even help? Another point that doesn't help is that some shops are somewhat secretive about where their frags have come from.
Count yourself lucky that you have a LFS that sells frags. :eek:
I am getting the feeling the people down in the southern counties have a better selection of shops than at other parts of country.
(Please prove me wrong and say that there is good LFS in East Midlands, that regulary has a good selection of acros. As I want to know where! :D)
I would have thought there must be many factors in deciding whether a coral will hold, has potentional for colour including knowing about the 'mother' colony?, How long the coral has been captive in tanks (through the generations) etc etc.
FP
I think you are right!
Dave
SPS Hoover
22-08-06, 16:49
I am getting the feeling the people down in the southern counties have a better selection of shops than at other parts of country.
No its because all of us down south fit this description
Should I have to be in a hobby for 60 years donning a mac, thick framed specticals and smelling of old Holborn to be able to pick a frag that is going to hold its colour ? Thats a bit of a dinosauors attitude tbh. (I am not saying that any of the sucessful SPS members that description ;))
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyparott
I would have thought there must be many factors in deciding whether a coral will hold, has potentional for colour including knowing about the 'mother' colony?, How long the coral has been captive in tanks (through the generations) etc etc.
FP
i always thought this until i started fragging my own SPS..
the first thing i always do when fragging is keep a clone back for myself in case nything happens to the mother coral.
it's amazing how many variations of the same coral with regards to colour and shape can be found once they start to grow.
eg...i fragged a slimer and even though the frags are relatively close to one another the mother is bright green....one of the frags is even brighter and thinner whereas another frag is dark green and much thicker????
all in the space of about 2 ft with the same lighting and flow etc?
No its because all of us down south fit this description
:D:D:D
I can picture it in my mind!
:D:D:D
Dave
simon garratt
22-08-06, 19:06
A Southern reefer sets off on his weekend jaunt in the search for colourfull SPS...:D
http://pacamac.free.fr/spip/IMG/jpg/pacamac.jpg
(edit: i might add that this looks suspiciously like Mr Hellyar ;) ;) )
.................................
Keith hit the nail on the head IMo.
Now nobody take offence here, this isnt a ' better than you' comment.
Nearly all the most colourfull systems in the UK are owned by guys with at least a few years experiance running SPS 'dominated' systems. The key word here is 'dominance' ie systems that have the husbandry requirements of the SPS put first and formost in the systems desighn. The stock is well established, sometimes 2nd or third generation, if not from that tank origionally, they will quite often be from other like minded hobbyists with long running systems. All in all its the SPS and thier requirements that are first and formost on the priority scale.
In general, most of these corals will have either been bought in as partially washed out newly shipped colonies/ or as colourd up private frags a year or more previously and be well settled with a minimal amount of disturbance and kept under very stable conditions..
Its very common for people fairly new to SPS to assume that this is the colour these corals were when they were first brought in. The truth of the matter is that it is very rare indeed you will see a freshly imported coral with anywhere near this much colour. Usually you will only get a hint of the colour possibilities showing in an unavoidably stressed and manhandled colony. Thats not to say that the shops dont take extreme care and attention when handling corals, as most of them do a superb job. But no matter how good the handling process is, and no matter how good the LFS holding system is, they cant match nor beat the 6 months to a year of stablility that a well run hobbyist system can provide, This is where the coral comes into its own and showes its true nature.
You have to remember as well, that many of the photos you see come from systems that are very well run. You simply cant get these kinds of colours in alot of cases no matter how much praying and reading you do. Its all down to pure simple experience and a fastidiously run system. Likewise its very common for US shops to take pictures of corals from above, under lighting that enhances colours as well. so what you see in the shot, isnt exactly what you would see if you were there in person. also, the americans are far less fussy about photoshopping than we Brits are. 'we tend to frown on the practice'. so that adds to the debate as well.
All in all id say to anyone feeling hard done to. To stop worrying about getting/buying solid colours from day one. Thats not what SPS corals are about. The joy should come from watching them grow, and the colour comes as a reward for good husbandry. Just like a gardener you are rewarded for care, and attention to detail. If you expect show stoppers at the start your going to be sorely dissapointed and frustrated by all those 'other' tanks out there that 'seem' to have aquired the pickings. Chances are, they have many of the same species as you. Its just that they have worked a little longer to get the results.
I may do a thread in the near future that will highlight a few areas to concentrate on when choosing SPS corals at your LFS, and get the experienced guys to provide a few thoughts of their own regarding what they are actually looking at when they choose that coral you passed by without another thought.
Regards
Si.
i always thought this until i started fragging my own SPS..
the first thing i always do when fragging is keep a clone back for myself in case nything happens to the mother coral.
it's amazing how many variations of the same coral with regards to colour and shape can be found once they start to grow.
eg...i fragged a slimer and even though the frags are relatively close to one another the mother is bright green....one of the frags is even brighter and thinner whereas another frag is dark green and much thicker????
all in the space of about 2 ft with the same lighting and flow etc?
why does this happen si?
:confused:
superb analaysis of sps keeping with regards to clour btw!
SPS Hoover
22-08-06, 19:20
I may do a thread in the near future that will highlight a few areas to concentrate on when choosing SPS corals at your LFS, and get the experienced guys to provide a few thoughts of their own regarding what they are actually looking at when they choose that coral you passed by without another thought.
No chance so they are still there when i go in shop:D
The Escaped Ape
22-08-06, 20:10
to be totaly honest the only country i would say that gets far better stock than we do is japan, as they are willing to pay the money, whould people over here pay £3-500 for that coral ? i doubt it !!! the far east will
Just for info, I used to regularly visit the best SPS LFS in Japan, and SPS there went for between £25 (small pink stylos) up to at the most £125 (for the best corals, including very large acro colonies of maybe a foot across). Just once did I see a coral for much more than this, an absolutely massive colony of hammer coral (possibly 2-3 feet across) and that went for around £300.
One thing the Japanese shops are not good at seems to be recognising the potential of frags and propogating in Japan. That said, most of the small colonies in this shop were aqua cultured in the Phillipines. The larger ones were probably wild gathered.
simon garratt
22-08-06, 20:33
why does this happen si?
Well, you have to remember first and formost that halides are very much a point scource of light. so corals that are anywhere other than directly underneith a lamp never actually get what we would term as 'midday sun' (your halides dont move across the sky like the sun). They do however get alot of bounced and refracted light that changes spectrum from one area to another, even something as simple as a brace bar can drasticly shift the spectrum and amount of UV hitting a captive coral, or in some cases part of it causing colour variations within a single species within a relatively small area.
As for groth pattern. its a combination of flow and lighting. (stags will quite often grow 'fast and thin' in dimmer areas (under brace bars) in order to get nearer the light source as quickly as possible , compared to those that are fully exposed a ft away that may well grow fatter branches and appear to grow slower which isnt actually the case as the level of calcium carbonate layed down is probably just as vigorous..
'Micro-habitat' rules also come into play, where one corals proximity causes a shift in the flow patterns around and to other corals which will effect thier growth as well. The one thats at the leading edge of the predominant flow will grow fatter and shorter, the one thats more shelterd behind or to the leeward side will grow thinner becouse it doesnt need to be so strongly built.
The problems can start when you shift these corals around. ie you may shift a densly packed coral into an area of slower flow and it may die off at the center becouse it suffocates. So growth pattern should always be considerd when deciding where to place cirtain corals.
regards
Si.
All in all id say to anyone feeling hard done to. To stop worrying about getting/buying solid colours from day one. Thats not what SPS corals are about. The joy should come from watching them grow, and the colour comes as a reward for good husbandry. Just like a gardener you are rewarded for care, and attention to detail. If you expect show stoppers at the start your going to be sorely dissapointed and frustrated by all those 'other' tanks out there that 'seem' to have aquired the pickings. Chances are, they have many of the same species as you. Its just that they have worked a little longer to get the results.
But isn't the issue knowing what an initial browned out coral might become or am I still missing the point. :confused:
Using your analogy, a gardener has an idea of what a seed could produce given the right conditions.
If I buy a frag of a blue milli, at least I know that given good conditions it will produce a blue milli. I know not necessary the same shade etc as everybodies tank is different.
Dave
simon garratt
23-08-06, 00:55
But isn't the issue knowing what an initial browned out coral might become or am I still missing the point
Thats exactly my Point Dave. A great many people focus far too much on colour when buying at the LFs, when they should be looking at 'species' If you know your species, then you'll know 'generally' what colour possabilities you have within that group of corals. Cirtain families will only exibit cirtain colours, whereas others will exibit different traits.
I would recommend Veron's corals of the world as a superb insite into this, where it covers the colour morphs most likely. By no means it it ridged, but it does give you a good 'head start' in spotting the difference between A Paralis which has a very high likelyhood of turning solid blue, and A. Selago which although similar in appearence has slightly differing coralites and will usually stay iether brown or green with blue tips at best.. Both may come in browned out, but only one has any possibility of taking on blue pigment beyond the growth tips and along the rest of the branch. A.Tenuis is fairly easy to recognise and will usually give a bi-colour coral with bright blue growth tips with different colourd polyps.
Millipora's are fairly easy to distinguish. As long as you can see colour in the growth tip, chances are the rest of the coral will go a similar shade after a good period of settling in. If it looks slightly pink on the tips then there is no reason why under good conditions it shouldnt go a more solid pink/red all over after a year or so. If your 'very' lucky, you might even get a bi-colour out of it.
Even then. theres absolutely no guarentee that once home and under differing conditions that it will gain its former glory back. There are just too many variables to take account of, But for me, thats part of the challenge.
Probably one of the best examples weve all seen is hysterix. You can buy it in a shop as a dull brown colony with only the slightest hint of pink in the tips. Give it six months under good conditions you have a solid pink colony at 12" deep under a bank T5's. Take a frag and put it in a more stable tank with 250W halides, and it will go solid Red. Take another frag and place it under 400W of 20K halides and it will turn nearly solid red/ purple. the variations are pretty endless dependant on the system. But they all origionate from a basic imported colony that was a dull brown in the dealer.
As an example.
Here is an A.Tenuis (or closely related Sp.) i bought from STM.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/tank2006%20sept%20(13).jpg
It spent 1 week at the bottom of the tank settling in, and then was moved up to 4" below the water surface directly under a 250W 10K BLV and 2 80W Actinic T5's. for 8hrs/day ( a risky move some would say) . this shot was taken about 5months after it went in the tank. Origionally the colony was a uniform cream / beige colour with very faintly blue tips. the polyps were uniform cream as well.
This isnt to say, you can turn a pink coral into a solid blue. You have to have 'some' hint of colour there at the start, to provide you with a gestimate of what that coral is capable of.
But like i said previously, knowing your Species or at least the general families will go along way towards helping you along the way. The rest as they say, is in the water.
Regards
Si.
simon garratt
23-08-06, 01:04
I might add at this point that one of my favorite corals of all time was a relatively bland (at first appearence) black/white colony of A.Loripes.
It wasnt untill this colony had been settled for several months that it started to show its true nature. Being a fantastic cream white with sooty black tips and coralite shading that made it look like someone had dusted it with a powder brush and velvet black paint. Not a hint of gaudy colour in it, but stunning none the less in its simplicity and growth pattern.
regards
Si.
Thanks for your detailed reply Si.
I now have the suggested book(s) on order :D
I understand what you are saying. Looks like I have got to do some studying in identifying Acros. ;)
Dave
p.s. Also I better start thinking of a bigger tank.
thanks also si....everything said seems logical!
:)
not my thing but exellent info into sps si
somehow i dont see this morphing effect applying to our green/brown zoanthids we only see in all our lfs :confused:
a quick peek on reef central members shows we deffinatly getting a raw deal with zoa imports. i can only presume that its who you know with wat does come our way.;)
Very good thread. I strongly agree with many of the SiG's comments.
Some great comments and info on here. I have been keeping corals for many years and I am still surprised by the way they can change colours even in the same system over time. The two biggest factors that effect browning seems to be nitrates and lighting, keep one low and the other high as a rule provides the best colours, although there are always exceptions, ie E. paradivisa - the shadier it is the stronger the green colour - go figure!
Remember when you are looking at corals in shops they have been very stressed out and unless the shop has great tanks then the corals are often going to be browned out or paled out, look for hints of colour on the growth tips and the polyps themselves to get an idea of potential.
As A rule I find Montiporas retain colours easier than Acroporas but acroporas seem to have greater scope for change.
But thats half the fun anyway isnt it!
GOTAREEFTOKEEP
12-09-06, 10:52
Trust me. the corals are out there right under your noses disguised as browns with just a hint of colour due to shipping stresses. Or they are allready in your tank. All you have to do, is get the conditions right, and take some time to read up on the individual families/strains to the stage where you can recognise a coral species visually by structure rather than colour alone...........that will come back later if you get it right.
Thats what makes it so much fun. And occasionally so frustrating.
If you want a stuunning reef, then look at two yrs minimum. If you want an instant reef..............
Then your in the wrong game im afraid........... :D
Nice thread.......... :thumbsup:
I make you right about the color of corals comming back i have a brown stag horn that slowly over the last few weeks has started to color up eletric green with yellow polyps and i cant belive that this is the same brown old coral that had brown polyps slightly white tips
Matt
simon garratt
12-09-06, 12:38
Theres a crafty trick you can play with SPS that Mr Clark highlighted to me some time ago with regard to placement which i wholehartedly agree with.
I like to call it the pretty bird method:
Have you ever wonderd why attractive women usually cart round a fat ugly freind with them wherever they go...?
read on...;)
Obviously allowing first and formost for the corals physical needs, ie flow rate and lighting intensity. consider the fact that reefs arnt naturally a vibrant intensity of every colour but brown. Having a few standard browns in oportune places can actually 'enhance' the apparent colour of more a vivid coral placed nearby. likewise keeping contrasting corals behind, in front or to the side of each other can also play dividends.
If you place a green millipora next to say a green pavona, 'to the eye' the two will blend together and loose impact. placing the same green millipora behind a blue, will make it stand out alot better visually and the pavona will stand out on its own. likewise you can place colourfull lower growing corals such as a pink stylopora in relative proximity to the bases of large widely branched blue tipped brown stag (as long as its not too shaded) , and it will stand out far better than hidden amongst a verity of simarlaly gaudy specimins.
sometimes its a simple trick of the eye that makes you see colour that was previously uninspiring. or highlight the finer points of a previously dull coral.
just a consideration.
regards
Si.
.....the better the store the more highly paid the window dresser!!!
it's the same principle si!
:)
...cue the inevitable window dresser jokes between you!
lol
The two biggest factors that effect browning seems to be nitrates and lighting,
Sorry but can I disagree with you here?
Yes, nitrates and lighting are big players in the browning of SPS but browning also has to do with overall tank parameters including such things as phosphate levels (which should be around 0.02) and overall flow in the system.
Sorry but can I disagree with you here?
Yes, nitrates and lighting are big players in the browning of SPS but browning also has to do with overall tank parameters including such things as phosphate levels (which should be around 0.02) and overall flow in the system.
also add many months of stability at least to that equasion also.
:)
SPS Hoover
12-09-06, 19:22
Mr G stop giving away my secrets;)
chriskirby101
12-09-06, 20:32
To drop my 2 cents in (or 2 pence as the case may be)..
Cyber's always imported our own stock directly, but since we started to sell corals online and therefore imported many many more corals than before (a 300-400% increase so far) the corals we receive have become much better. We now get pretty much what we ask for. And the SPS we get now are fantastic..Instead of a few green tipped and maybe a blue tipped coral once in a while we now get 15-20 corals like the one below per month. And the cost really is not that bad, we sell em all for £50 a piece..
http://www.cyberaquatics.com/ur/DSC_0047.JPG
One oddity though is customers ask for true blues and orange ricordia mushrooms, So we bring them in (and get killed by the exporters coz they are "rare" as if) . ANd none go out because £20 is too much for them??
Tis life i guess
Chris
bristlebasher
13-09-06, 12:54
http://www.cyberaquatics.com/ur/DSC_0047.JPG
I wish we got ANY sps here :D:D:D brown would also do !!!! This is a stunner............
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