My Nano Reef

[chronic2005]

Hi
Heres some details about the setup first, Its one month old and i am using tap water (I know ro much better :D ). All my parameters are fine,

ph 8.4
amm.o
nitrite.0
nitrate.2.5
phosphates.3(i am buying some rowaphos tommorow)
salinity. 1.026

The tank is 24/12/13 (13 gallons) the fuge is 12/12/8 (roughly 7 gallons)


My filtration is
2kg of live rock, 3kg of ocean rock
My fuge
My Pre filter (being added to the system tommorow)
Circulation
600 litres per hour powerhead
1200 litres per hour flow back from fuge

Today is my birthday so i went out and got my first lot of livestock :D

I purchased
1 nearly 2 inch clown fish :D
1 Boxing Shrimp
And 1 tree coral

I am using around a half inch thick grain substrate in my main tank and 3 inchs of playpit sand in my fuge, In the fuge i have remorsa (spelling) calurpa kindly given by yellowtang :thumbsup: , and their is also a emerald crab in their somewhere.

So far i havent really had much of an algea bloom but i am expecting one even with the rowaphos, but my fingers are crossed :whistling:


At the moment the tank is extremely cloudy due to the gravel being taken out but it should settle by mourning.

My lighting is 2 55 watt t5 compacts and they are on for 10 hours a day, and my fuge lighting is on 24/7 .

I will post a pic of the tank later on tonight and i will post one tommorow when all is properly cleared up.

I have a few questions aswell
I have a spare power filter, which is just laying around and i would like to use it for something, i am using filter wool and carbon in the pre filter so i do not see why i should use them in this, so do you have any suggestions of media i could put in also if possible media which i will never have to clean. As every time i open up the power filter i usally flood the place :( .

Also do you suggest i increase my flow as i intend to keep some low light requireing sps corals, the currenly flow is roughly around 30x per hour.

Any other suggstions would be good, oh i am also going to get more corals tommorow and possibley another clown.

Tell me what you think and also suggestions for improvement, sorry for grammer.

Thanks

p.s.
i am of to take pics :thumbsup:

[bluem00n0]

thought you weren't supposed to use playpit sand?

[bluem00n0]

You would definitely benefit from RO water as tap water is full of phosphates, heavy metals etc (well it is round here anyway!)

eventually this will lead to high phosphate and nitrate levels and you will get lots of nuisance algae.

Happy Birthday btw - maybe your parents could get you a cheap RO unit as an early xmas prezzy RO man do reasonable ones for £50+

Just a thought

[Juppy]

bad move using tap water. i wouldnt buy any more stock. save your money and get a cheap ro unit. your asking for trouble using tap water.

[bony]

i agree, using tap water is asking for trouble. if you don,t use r.o water your will have a lawn of Bryopsis sp. (hair algae) in no time.

[chronic2005]

My parents have already bought me my t5 compacts and i intend to use ro in future but a ro unit purchase is not a possibility. The tap water around me is not that bad, well for tap water anyway. My clown seam fine the corals seems ok and i have not seen the boxing shrimp yet, just because of the unsettled water :( i hope .
Anyway heres some pics, please remember that the water is extremely unsettled due to a complete new substrate and lots of of that playpit sand.
Oh and i was told to us playpit sand by the board.

[chronic2005]

Oh and the hood is my own attemp at a diy hood but it will soon be replaced by a better made one, it a comes froma fine brand called mum and dad diy :D
more

[chronic2005]

more

[chronic2005]

more

[chronic2005]

Thats the fuge, last one. surprizingly the clown has not been bothred by the 2 hour trip and has been out in full view since he been in.

[chronic2005]

Will post more when it actually cleared it self up, also can anyone answer my questions at the begining of the post.
thanks

[Silverreef]

chronic2005,

I don't know your age, but you seem to be disregarding every piece of common sense or advice ( as to keeping a reef tank ), that this board has to offer, you are placing any stock you have in your tank under stress, I think you will end up with a horrible mess of algae, dead stock and will give this enjoyable, fascinating and all consuming hobby up in a very short time.

Please don't place any living thing under any more stress than you already have, I am sorry if this post is very negative, but please read and understand what you need to do, to keep the marine life in your care in the best possible circumstances for their survival.

Regards

Steve

My suggestion would be, return any livestock already in your system and start again, after you have read and fully understood marine tank inhabitants requirements.

[Elliott89]

Chronic 2005 you are a young reefer like myself and you have made a great attempt at your tank and it will all look fantastic one day

I have been speaking to Chronic2005 for a while now and he seems a positive and
enthusiastic young reefer who does care for his livestock but i think he has taken things just a little bit to fast

My advice would be the same as Steve-Newman's though return your livestock to
the LFS and mature the tank propely because this way you will become over run
with algae and you will lose livestock

but don't take this as a negative

For now buy some RO water or Di-ironised water (what i use) and fill your tank
with this and let all the sand settle,wait a month for all the liverock and your Refugium to mature and then you will be ready for livestock and you will be
rewarded for your patience with an Amazing and interesting Nano reef

Good luck and if you need any other help PM me

Elliott

[slappy]

Happy Birthday by the way.

I'll send out the stuff to you on Monday. :thumbsup:

Tony

[millermilla]

Im very sorry and im no expert but those pictures look quite disturbing. That cannot possibly be any good for the livestock in the tank. Not only is that highly stressfull for the livestock but I should think your birthday money will go to waste as they will be lucky to survive for long. Sorry to be so negative but the pictures are a concern and I strongly recommend you take previous advise and return the livestock until you stabilise your system. I will quite happily give you all the RO water you need if you live near me and can collect.
Happy birthday and I hope all turns out OK with the tank.

Best Regards

Keith

[Reef runt]

have you got any filter wool to polish the water for a while or even do a water change to try and clear up the water a bit.

im sure it will be a very nice nano reef one day :yes:

[maestro]

Lets give the poor lad a break, its his bday, the pictures only look bad because the tank is cloudy, it should be clear by the morning, I know tap water isnt ideal but it isnt necessarily a death sentence

He's taken the effort to test his parametres and post so for his age I think he's sounds a responsible fish keeper

[slappy]

Yeah come on guys. Give him a break, it's his birthday after all.

I'm sure that the cloudiness will clear by the morning.

[Juppy]

using tap water to set-up a reef is not responsible! the initial fill is the foundation of that reef. You want to keep sps corals in tap water??? i would seriously advise you to start again. You will grow a mass of algae from the crappy water.

Giving a break because somebody is young and its their birthday doesnt help those fish or corals now does it? And what does everybody say in a months time when the question is asked 'why do i have all of this algae in my tank? how do i get rid of it'? I want to see this guy succeed, thats why people are giving him advice.

Nobody has been horrible anyway, its just good solid advice. You can not set up a reef with tap water and expect to succeed. Especially with any sort of sps.

[Elliott89]

What Juppy says is so true

I you remember i was completly over run with algae due to doing things the wrong
way and it took me months of hard work and spending more money to get rid of the bloody stuff

If you cant afford an RO unit buy a Di-ironiser

i bought one for around £50 as i have no where to put an RO unit and i have to
say i have never had anymore problems with algae

Elliott

[maestro]

Originally posted by Juppy@Aug 21 2005, 11:59
using tap water to set-up a reef is not responsible! the initial fill is the foundation of that reef. You want to keep sps corals in tap water??? i would seriously advise you to start again. You will grow a mass of algae from the crappy water.

Giving a break because somebody is young and its their birthday doesnt help those fish or corals now does it? And what does everybody say in a months time when the question is asked 'why do i have all of this algae in my tank? how do i get rid of it'? I want to see this guy succeed, thats why people are giving him advice.

Nobody has been horrible anyway, its just good solid advice. You can not set up a reef with tap water and expect to succeed. Especially with any sort of sps.
Actually one of my lfs' who have a great reputation and are arguably the best shop in the south east advises thats its fine to use tapwater for your first fill and locally the water is very hard and it keeps the parametres stable.

Im not saying that the guy shouldnt have used ro water but lets not pretend its a cse of animal cruelty or something

[chronic2005]

I will not what is all this algea because as much as some of you people think i am stupid, i am not. The tanks water is perfectly clear now and i will post pics in a few hour to prove it. As for the ro water it is not the cost of it, it is the trip i would have to take to get it, and although my tap water phosphates are high the nitrates are relatively low. In everyone of my setups i have used tap water and nothing bad has ever come of them. All my new livestock is doing fine, and i mean no offence when i say i will not start again. I am purchaseing some rowaphos today, and i am recieveing some more calurpa in the next few days which in affect will lower my phospahtes considerable. Using my methods i have never lost a fish and i hope this will be the case this time, i thank all the people who have flipped over tap water and to all the people that i have, i take your opions on board but nothing bad has ever come of it.
Here is a picture of one of my old tanks run on tap water

[chronic2005]

That picture was taken half an hour after everything had gone in, i should also mention that this tap water was from my 3 month old first ever marine tank.

[chronic2005]

oh i did also mention that i am using ro for water changes, and i ran i polyfilter for the first week

[chronic2005]

Hi All
I hvae just been to my lfs and purchased more rock and some reflectors, i have also bought some other stuff which you will see in the next picture, i will post it in a hour as i am at my uncles.
thanks

[Elliott89]

Looking forward to seeing the pics

Elliott

[chronic2005]

Im sorta delaying postage of them aswell, as i really do enjoy being a member of this board ;)

[Adam C]

chronic2005, Who told you to use play pit sand?

[chronic2005]

i cant remember the name sorry but i was told by someone on this forum and on reefsuk by numorous people, i will search my post

[chronic2005]

oh and whats wrong with using playpit sand

[Adam C]

I’ve tried PP sand as part of a deep sand bed covered with 3cm of Aragamax and although one year on the tank is fine I think that if it wasn’t for the 3cm of Aragamax that the bed would of failed because all of the numerous worm tracks in the Aragamax stop when they get to the PP sand. I think that Simon Garratt has also tried PP sand and found that most of the fauna that usually considered an important part of a sand bed will not live in PP sand.

[chronic2005]

Heres soem clearer pictures, remeber i just added more rock and my camera is a 3 mega pixel peice of crap.
Anyway here they are

[chronic2005]

thats the male in of the pair and is feeding well but the female although has had some im still not sure about. More

[chronic2005]

more

[chronic2005]

true love :wub:

[chronic2005]

another

[chronic2005]

another

[chronic2005]

last one

[chronic2005]

Does anyone know why my boxing shrimp only has one claw?
What do you think
and heres what i want to do to the tank next
add 1 clown
and 10 herrmits
1 sand shifter
and add a leather toadstool, green montipore, xenia and few more
im adding abit more live rock soon and im also adding some carbon.
thanks
p.s.
heres a pic of my fuge which i forgot to post

[Reef runt]

how old is the tank have you got enough pods to suply these sea horses ?

do you know what type they are?

[Juppy]

unbelievable!!!

[chronic2005]

Im feeding them 3 times a day on mysis and brine, i am also getting a timer to feed these granuales which my lfs feeds these on. Both are feeding in my tank and in the lfs's tank.
Juppy say what your thoughts are dont just say unvielieable

[instantsquid]

I'm guessing Juppy is concerned that these guys aren't destined for a long and healthy life. I've never kept seahorses - I'd love to - but I'm not convinced I could maintain the perfect conditions they need to survive. If you seriously believe you can, then good luck to you. I look forward to seeing plenty more pics of them.

Ian.

[chronic2005]

Oh forgot to mention the tank is around 1 month and 1 week old

[fire999]

I have read these posts with great interest... I am not going to say whats been said already. But would like to point out that "Sea Horses" need to be kept on there own , as they are so slow they find it hard to compete with the fish for food.

I saying that , I do hope they will thrive and be fine.

I read that you were getting some Roaphos ... Hope you got it, it will reduce those phosphates right down.

Tank look alot better now........

[evilervin]

Chronic,

PLEASE, do some more research before adding any more stock.
I feel....................................... im going to leave it there.

PLEASE, get more LR as mentioned on pervious threads.
Research your next additions very carefully, ie If your going to add more coral IMO they will have to be ones that require little water movement, due to the fact that Sea Horses aren't the best of swimmer at the best of times.

Theres one more thing that ive been wondering about, your 12 / 13yrs old right? How do you efford such a money intensive hobby? Please dont get me wrong, i think its great to have such young blood enter this fasinatic hobby, im just wondering who funds it.

Gog

[chronic2005]

I have done a lot of reading on them in the past and i realize they need alot of care, but my lfs said if i have problems with them i can take them back and the purchase was sorta influnced by my mum :lol: Plus their 27.50 each and he gave me both for the same price :) .
I am happy to take an advice on these, also my water parameter are
amm 0
nitite 0
nitrate 2.5
ph 8.4
salinity 1.026
Phosphate are now down to 1 but the rowaphos has only been in a day so it should be undetectable tommorow

I have around 10 times per hour flow but thats maily just at the top of the aquarium.

Question, i have a spare power filter should i put this on if so what should i fill it with?
thanks

[chronic2005]

i find most of it doing odd jobs but my lfs does help me out alot, for example today he agve me 60 pounds worth of stuff for free.
Now their an lfs

[chronic2005]

Just read some posts, posted same time as my last. So in answer my lfs said the clown would be ok with them and after feeding my seahorses i have found out so far he is right, Both seahorses are easily feed and the clown is feed on flake.
Evilerin.. I have reserched these since i started keeping fish and my lfs told me everything before i bought them, i also found this great site
http://www.seahorses.de/index.htm
thanks

[fire999]

FEEDING ADULTS
Seahorses eat a great deal but are rather particular. Feeding seahorses is one of the most difficult aspects of keeping them in captivity. Seahorses usually eat only live, fresh food. They need food variety and cannot be fed solely on Artemia as these alone provide a highly unbalanced diet. With patience and effort, you may convince seahorses to eat some frozen foods and these can be a good backup when fresh food fails. However, you must not rely solely on frozen foods as these alone will eventually result in malnutrition and illness.


I hope this helps.

[chronic2005]

Hi
Thanks for the feeding info, so far they have taken frozen mysis and brine shrimp. My lfs also fedds them this granule stuff, i think its just so he can feed them loads of times aday as you cant with frozen, in a shop i mean. How do i get this live food?
thanks

[evilervin]

Chronic,

Evilerin.. I have reserched these since i started keeping fish and my lfs told me everything before i bought them, i also found this great site
http://www.seahorses.de/index.htm

I'll keep this short.

Have you read and taken on-board what the website says? are you sure?

From Seahorse.de,
The biological environment needs a minimum of 3 to 6 months to get a stable condition. Don´t put any fish in the tank before this time is over, otherwise there will be big problems! Really important is also the use of high quality life rock.

Also dont take your LFS's word as gospel (sp?).

Gog

[chronic2005]

Yes i have read it several times, and i will and do take my lfs word as a gospel every time he has given me advice it had never let me down and i have complete faith in his knowlage, He has worked in the trade for around 20 years and is also a qualified marine biologist one of his past employers has been aqua media theirs some of his cv :D
I am takeing on all posts and i have some past question which still need to be answered, hint hint :thumbsup:
thanks

[Marine Queen]

hey chronic2005

if it's any concelation, I have just bought my first reef tank. I filled it with as little live rock as I could get away with (in terms of cost) some good salt and freshwater from my lfs and was impatient enough to risk one blue legged hermit crab a few days later!!

2 weeks later the live rock is looking amazing, I have my first coral in there (which my local fish guy assured me was quite resilient to new surroundings) and everything is going well. - Including Herbie the hermit crab!! :D

I know it may seem silly and frustrating to stare at a tank full of rock and water but trust me, bare with it and you will reap the rewards.

Hope this helps - I spent my birthday money on my tank too :D

good luck

Charlotte

[chronic2005]

Hi Marinequeen, good luck with your tank and thanks for the support.
In a few days i will be getting some more calurpa which i will put in the main tank for the seahorses to nibble on during the day, i read that they will do this on the link given in a previous post.

[paultn]

i dont think you should take any single persons advice as the absolute truth. many people have stated their views on this post (and i agree with most of them tbh) but you seem to be too stuborn to change anything. why post asking for advice when your not going to take it in :blink: ?

paul

[chronic2005]

You have not advised me to do anything, so until you do...

[chronic2005]

And i am not takeing one mans advice alone, otherwise why would i be posting on this forum. I take his advise because it has nver let me down.

[maestro]

If i may offer a bit of advice.

Just make sure that the seahorses get enough to eat, it is advised to keep them on their own as they are not as mobile as most fish and so cannot compete for food and eventually atarve so be aware of this please.

Also please research what corals you can keep with seahorses, their is a list on seahorse.org I think, basically nothing with stinging cells as they can kill the seahorses.

[chronic2005]

yeah i was just on that seahorse site then, very informative. I feed them 3 times aday and so far both are feeding well. I will keep you updates. My question from previous posts, if possible really ned answering.
thanks

[maestro]

What questions are they?

[chronic2005]

Ok thanks
here they are
1 i have a spare power filter should i put it on
2 if so what media should i put in
is their anyhing i can do to remove silicates form the water?
thanks

[maestro]

Originally posted by chronic2005@Aug 21 2005, 22:07
Ok thanks
here they are
1 i have a spare power filter should i put it on
2 if so what media should i put in
is their anyhing i can do to remove silicates form the water?
thanks
You could use it but you have to be very carefull with seahorses, they need gentle flow so they extra filter maybe too much for them.

You could maybe diffus ethe output via a spraybar.

Id put in some polyfilter which ive heard good things about, I believe polyfilters remove silicates but you'd have to double check.

[Reef runt]

i think rowa phos removes silicates

[LEEWINK]

I used to use a sillicate removal stuff, sorry its a bit loose of a discription.

It is like chalk consistency, little pieces similar to say if you used a piece of chalk down to ya fingers and the stub left, little off shape squares etc. and off white in colour, I cant remember the name or who it was by, maybe someone like API or two little fishes.

If anyone can cut in to save me time please do.

Ask in your lfs, I used it with allsorts of other resins and charcoal, including both kent adsorbtion resins, kents toxic metal removal resin, kents reef carbon and clearwater or cleanwater resin too, I did like the 2 kent adsorb. resins though as they recharge with table saltmix and last ave. 2 yrs.

I'll keep mi eyes open and if I spot it somewhere i'll post you ok.

lee

:D :D :D :D

[paultn]

i think the advice in my post was to listen to other peoples advice :D and there was no point in repeating what has already been said. i do think that you have stocked quite quickly. seahorses have quite a high bioload, i believe, due to fast digestion and you added them day after the clown, theres also the feeding, and due to them being such slow feeders a lot will probably get wasted. i would keep up on testing to see if anything goes wrong and have a water change ready. i dont have first hand experience with play pit sand, but i have read a lot of threads where people have either asked or had had problems with it; i think it was due to the silicates causing algae problems. id also get some more liverock before you buy anymore livestock, but make sure its kept in water to avoid a mini cycle.

good luck, paul

[chronic2005]

Hi
Thanks for the advice all, update on the seahorses. Both are feeding well, male on mysis and the female on brine (go figer) . I feed them for around 15 minites at a time so i make sure they get plenty. Today in the post i got some of that free ultiphos fe, so im putting that in my prefilter. Im going to get a polyfilter for the external ( metals in the tap water) and some of that kent silicate remover (sorry, name) as my lfs sells all things kent.
I know i stocked way to quickly, and i only went in the lfs for some corals but when the guy offord me 2 for 27.50 and my mum would give me half the money back, i could'nt refuse it. I tested my water today and my nitrates are no down to 2, i havents run a phophate test yet but i will do one later. Thanks for your opions and i will keep you all posted.
thanks

[Juppy]

Just one piece of advise for you, up to you whether or no you take it.

Seahorses may be 'eating' mysis and brineshrimp but they will not 'digest' very much of it. As you will see, when they sh*t the stuff looks almost exactly the same as when it went in except all rolled up. This is why you must feed them super regularly, they only draw very small amount of nutrition from each feed because the food near enough goes straight through them. Also soak every feed in zoecon or a similar vitamin to ensure they are getting nutrition. I have kept seahorses in the past and they are lovely creatures but you must tailor the tank around their needs. You wont be able to up the flow to keep corals and just say 'oh they will be alright', they will die.
Because you have introduced seahorses you will not be able to keep sps.
Sps=very high flow
seahorses=very low flow

Good luck!
Juppy

[chronic2005]

yeah i know juppy im planning to get a separete 30 gallon for sps and my clown, hes not a problem but he dosent really blend in with the seahorses :lol: .
My mysis is already vitamin enriched and .. the male seahorse (stan :D ) craps red stuff? anyone know what that is as i dont feed red brine shrimp :lol: .
Also has anyone got an experiance with them marine granuales, my lfs has been feeding them this for around 3 weeks now and i want to put them ina auto feeder for when i go back to school, brine/mysis mourning and night and them granuales in the day.
Any help on that food would be great
Thanks juppy

[BassBits]

Come on guys can't you see this is a WIND UP!!!!!

Bass Bits

[chronic2005]

bassbits u have pm

[FaysieUK]

I'm not sure whether this is a wind up or not. If it is, its a stupid time waste, but if this is a kid doing his best to get a decent tank going under the tutilage of someone with very outmoded, I would suggest never very in moded advice, then I feel very sorry for him in the short term. I think there ARE people here who are vastly more qualified and experienced than one lfs who really is only a holding tank for sales, not a keeping tank for beloved pets - this forum interacts madly and exchanges advice and we all get to know the particular advisors we can trust.

I don't image our fella is doomed to lose interest in the hobby, mistakes are the way to experience and boy, is he going to be experienced. A few years down the line he will be dolling out very trustworthy advice himself.

Mistakes can also be the way to new discoveries.

So, jury is out, but at the moment, the jury is frowning madly.

I don't know about seahorses, I get really upset about them being kept inappropriately and the waste of life marine hobbyists are prepared to squander on the hobby. But, by the same token, last year in Singapore, there wasn't a store in the chinese quarter that didn't have basket loads of them out in the sun to be purchased as dry ingredients for whatever it is they eat them for, chinese medicines, herbal remedies, food flavouring? I think the difference is, they are caught and killed and we don't think of them living tortuously in a glass box of turgid water - that is the thought that galls.

Anyhow, I think the play pit sand sounds like a bad idea, it is silica sand and not appropriate and it won't stimulate the kind of life that is best for a good bio system. Don't spend anymore on livestock and save up to get the right sand. I don't know if you can find anyone with bits of old coral and make your own for cheapness but I think that replacing the pp might well save you money on silica removal too.

If your lfs offers you any more cheap offers, pay him and tell him you will collect in a month or two. Lots of my associates from this board always do that as a precautionary measure anyhow happy to take the livestock so long as it still looks healthy and well fed after it has been kept for a few weeks at the lfs.

[chronic2005]

So basically you think my livestock is going to die, i have said i will be running a silicate remover. And if you are saying thta my lfs is just trying to get a sale your completely wrong but i guess i cannot convince you of that. I do not plan to add any more livestock im even trying to set up another tank so the seahorses can have their own tank, i dont know what else i can do to please you people. Both are feeding well and show no signs of ill health so i dont see any problem.
I am obviuously going to get no where shareing this so, if a moderator could close the post.
thnaks to the people who have not said it is basically going to die
thanks

[chronic2005]

oh and why would i wind up people up over af fish, it a little sad if you think that

[Mikey]

To review when I get home.

[Elliott89]

Before everyone goes and starts running Chronic2005 down,why should a young
fishkeeper be any less responsible than an adult one?

And before people starts saying ''Timewaster''lets guide this guy in the right direction rather than drive him off the board.Remember we were all beginners
once!

Yes i admit he did rush things a little by getting the sea horses and even i with two years experience wouldn't try them yet, although he does care about them and is
willing to make the necessary changes to suit their special needs and i wish you
the best of luck with them Chronic2005

For your first set-up at your age you have done bloody well you should have seen
my first tank at 13 :o :wacko: only now at 15 am i learning the correct way to set-up a tank and it is still far from perfect believe me

So lets help young reefkeepers not drive them away

Elliott

[FaysieUK]

I hope you have read my reply in the thread, i think that you think i will fail because i am a child. Well you are extremely wrong, i have never losta ny livestock in my 2 years keeping these fish. And i bet if an adult would have posted the thread you would not have dared day what you said . it reall anoys me when people like you say what you say and next time if you have an opion that my livestock will die pm or keep it to yourself as it is greatly off putitng
--------------------


You sent me the above pm. Well, I think you have jumped to a conclusion about my post.

1. I was acknowledging Bassbit's assertion that this IS a windup, by saying that while that view is obviously a possibility, I don't really think it is a wind up. If I had thought that, I wouldn't bother wasting my precious time sending a response - I do have a life you know.

2. I acknowledged that this could also be a kid looking for help and support (which is, as I said why I wrote a reply).

My personal view? Are you going to fail? Well, you seem to be listening to the advice and doing something about it. Which is why I feel that you will get on all right in the end. You are clearly very bright.

However much you have been reading and listening to advice on the threads, however, you have run against nearly all the literature I have read, and certainly most of the advice on this thread is against the way you have set out.

The one thing which is required in marine keeping, which isn't necessary with any other fish keeping in anything like the same way, is patience. A new tank has to cycle fully before adding fish. The old way was to cycle the tank using fish, but most aquarists these days acknowledge that this is an unnecessary cruelty. The idea of doing it while intoducing clown fish and seahorses, has rocked the ultimatereef site on its heels. If you had not been a kid, believe me, the response would have been down on you like a ton of bricks. You think I only 'dared' to say what I said because you were a kid? On the contrary my friend, if you had been an adult, I and probably a few others, would have given a piece of our minds.

Its because you are a child that people have shown the patience they have, and criticised in most cases, quite gently.

I am quite new to the hobby myself (I looked after a marine tank years ago, but its a very different story now), so I have read approaching a dozen books on the topic. The Conscientious Marine Aquarist is very good indeed and there are numerous other books that are great for initial advice, though some of this, even, is 5-8 years out of date. I have a good and very simple (I find water chemisty extremely difficult to follow) guide by Nick Dakin if you send your address I'll post it to you at my expense). I take the Marine World magazine and Coral Magazine, and am ordering three new coral books from Amazon this week. It takes a lot of information ingesting to get to grips with the right way to do things. One thing which is a fundamental truth is you cannot rush this stuff. I think the seahorses are infinitely better where they are than going straight into another new tank (if you meant to do that). The only place for the seahorses is back to the lfs (for a month's holiday or so), or where they are now, in a tank which has at least started to mature. Putting them into another would be a big mistake just because they don't look right with the clowns, and also, where are you going to get all the finance it takes for more tanks.

Think about it. You have to decide how you are going to proceed on a limited budget and do the best you can for your animals. At your age and with your gifts, if you join a local marine club, I'm sure people would gladly help you out with a few donations of sand and stuff. I've got half a bag of live sand here you could have if you lived closer (or traveller can pick up and bring to if by co-oincidence someone reads this who travels between where you live and anywhere within 15 miles of London from Hove (I could meet at Gatwick or similar).

I think you are brilliant, you are obviously bright and gifted and a great joy to your parents. You are listening (don't be proud and close the thread just because you can't take due criticism, be big about it) and if you continue to listen, I am sure you will do well. As I say, mistakes are extremely educational, but then, generally, its better to learn by education. You will see that I also acknowledged that mistakes can be the cause of sensational discoveries. Most big discoveries have been made in the face of a load of scientists poo pooing the discoverer until his way suddenly turns out to work! But, people aren't poo pooing because you are a kid it's because when you fly in the face of known science, 99 times out of a 100 you turn out to be wrong. The 1% sensation might be great, but its very, very rare.

I am, and I think people are, genuinely trying to help. What you are doing is very different to the advice usually given, and I wonder if your lfs has been giving you information that has slightly distorted in the interpretation? Does he read the threads? Maybe he can go through them and make sure that what you are interpreting, is exactly what you were told.

DONT be proud about that, I am a lot older than you and I get loads wrong, so maybe double check your sources.

But don't be discouraged, people are not being negative about YOU, even if they are negative about the way you are doing it. Quite the contrary, I think people are probably very impressed by you...


:)

[Will]

Lets be honest here, clowns and sea horses isn’t the best mix to start with, i know plenty of people {with only basic levels of knowledge} keeping breeding and rearing seahorses it aren’t hard but to be honest when those clowns get bigger they are going to steal or the food and be to aggressive for them {yes even percula's}
Don’t waste time on the pellets find a supplier of live brine {or do it your self} and river shrimp. The sea horses need to feed like crazy and although they may take dead food its going to be hard to feed it without polluting the tank with un eaten remains!!

Play pit sand is okay in low levels imo, but I wouldn't choose to use it either so I wont stand by that comment

And the tank needs loads more developing time before you pile in any more stock

I couldn’t be bothered to read much more of it, as its so much Spam its unreal!!
But sit back read and read and read, find a good lfs you may think yours is but looking by your advice so far i doubt it, may seem friendly and knowledgeable but they recommended sea horses all ready with clowns!!!

Or alternatively if it’s a wind up then sit back and **** yourself

[bunglehaze]

Ok, this is not a slating but just some advice - if you choose to take some of it onboard then great, if not then im afraid there will only be so many posts that people will make to help you before they give up and ultimately your stock will suffer.

It is a fact that you have overstocked your tank too quickly, yes we all ruch into our early setups but at this stage you need to step back - listen (the important bit) and act on advice given. The cloudy tank is perfetly excusable as it is just kak being swirled around from your sand, ideally you should have added all of this stuff BEFOR stock. Not a lot you can do now but an indication of where you are going wrong.

RO water is the preferred source water as it contains less nutrients than tap, I ran tap only for 3 years and had algae problems, but apart from that I did not have any difficult coral to look after so maybe got a break. You should however start water changing with RO to replace the tap water, not just top ups.

A nano is not a very good idea for a first tank, and particularly for a younger reefer. You may be different from the norm but in my experience younger aquarists DO go through various stages of concentration and personal development which leads to the endless upkeep of a small system (remember that stability is key here, regular water changes, topups etc) if you let 1 area down then a small tank is not very forgiving.

You have chosen seahorses, and while I can appreciate why I would definately say take them back to the LFS until you have a bit of knowledge under your belt, im not just talking about reading a couple of forums but ACTUAL experience. Regardless of how well you think you have read and understood the info you have looked into IT WILL NOT SEE YOU THROUGH!

A lot of us on here have been keeping now for a number of years and still would not attempt seahorses, they ARE difficult, they NEED the right conditions, they DIE very easily and more importantly are ENDANGERED. Keeping them now at this stage is irresponsible - I know you wont like this advice but its true and the best thing you can do for them is sell them on to someone who has the money to supply the right setup for them (in this game the harder they are to keep, the more money it will take to provide the right environment - FACT)

You seem to be on the right track, and have an interest in the hobby which is a great starting point, but now you need to take a look at the bigger picture. Not listen solely to your LFS (he is there to sell you things, I recieved excellent advice from my LFS until all my stock died because he sold me something he shouldnt) He should not have sold you seahorses in the first place in my opinion.

You say if you were an adult we would not dare say what we have to you - you are wrong. Regardless of your age, your system is just not up to the mark and THIS is why you are getting negative advice. I personally have no problem with younger reefers and like to encourage them as long as they have the PATIENCE and MATURITY to slow things up and listen to good solid advice from experienced keepers, unfortunatley I have not come across many that have (and neither have most of the adult members on this board - hence the negativity.. remember it is not a dig at you personally but young keepers often do not have the money needed to get a setup right which leads to stock deaths and please help me posts)

So from here.....


Sell the seahorses, if you are dedicated to the hobby you can always get another pair in 6 months to a year cant you!

Get some form of skimmer to aid filtration

Buy RO water and do regular water changes and topups with it

Read, read read. Ask questions, take advice onboard and we will all happily help you out.

cheers

leigh :D

[ollie100]

Bl**dy good speach :lol: Thats seems to be the best advice you can give :bow: :thumbsup: Nice one

[kim]

The only risk with playpit sand is that it may contain impurities which could leach silicates into the water. Not everyone has this problem, but since the aragonite sands have fallen so much in price, most people won't take the risk for just a few pounds.

The playpit sand itself will not dissolve.

Some say their DSBs worked better with aragonite, but many have also said that silica DSBs work fine for them, so....

Rowaphos (and the equivalents) will remove silicates, if they are there, although it will probably cost an arm and a leg to get rid of a large amount this way.

Similarly, if the water used for water changes contains silicates/phosphates, Rowaphos will help but at a big price compared to RO water.

Please make sure you understand what you need to do to make a DSB work. It needs help getting started. If you are unsure, then consider getting rid of it. With seahorses you might be better off with a shallow sandbed but lots of rock in the refugium to encourage some life. A DSB doesn't work like a conventional refugium....it is a high-flow filter, not a low flow sanctuary. Though as already stated, you are best advised to take the seahorses back to the shop and plan to introduce them later, once you have the correct conditions for them.

kim

[Mikey]

Right, at home after a crap day and just read this through.

Firstly, I would like to say that apart from some one line comments on the thread, I have to say I see nothing but constructive advice here. Some passionate expressions yes, but everyone needs to remember that we are passionate about this hobby, and the livestock we have taken upon ourselves to look after.

I often worry that exchanges on here will upset younger reefers, and believe me, people would much rather dish out positive praising comments, then pick out problems. But it sometimes comes to picking mistakes, to enable topic starters to rectify problems, and then benefit from the aquired knowlegde.

Whether young or old, negativity is not a nice thing to hear, but its taking it on the chin and learning that makes the reefer, not the age. I'm saying no more on the age thing, as I do not see it as a problem. Segregation nor self victimisation get you anywhere in this hobby, and the same could be said about life in general.

It does bring me though, to make a comment about what bulletin boards (BBs) and reefing do for each other. This was brought to my attention by a very knowlegable and respected member of this BB, and one who demonstates this point perfectly, as I may not be able to get across in words, but I'll try.

Primarily, this and other BBs are set up to bring and give knowledge. They bring people together, and allows a fresh supply of enthusiam, knowledge, experience, and healthy competition ;)

The idea is to ask advice, and receive it. Basic, simple in it's form. By posting you are essentially opening your arms to the members of the board. A helping hand usually comes along. Now, by asking for that hand, you should not bite it. Otherwise, it will not be back next time to give you a needed push.

I think it's important to get this point across. Everyones efforts here should be appreciated and respected. Be it from the person who holds out his arms open and says "help", to person who say "yeah, I'll help you".

Respect and appreciation.

I'd like everyone to read this, and just try to imagine what I'm getting at from that garbled string of words I've spouted above.

Chronic, if you still want the post closed, please PM me, but I hope that you will understand what I'm trying to say, and keep benefiting from UR.

Lets get onto reefing folks, helping each other, having a laugh, and respecting the contributions that all you good folk out there give to this board.

Thanks for listening,

(Mod hat - I dont want to see anymore flippant comments please, thank you ;) )

[clarky72]

at a LFS they had 20 or more fish in with WILD seahorses and they were feeding fine :thumbsup:

[Kev s]

Clarky,

Lfs systems are holding systems so they are designed to hold fish until they are sold.

So they fill them up, and usually the fish and livestock are sold pretty quickly.

Seahorses won't do well in a tank with other fish because they won't get enough food if there is competition. So lfs's should really keep them in dedicated lower flow tanks.

Kev

Edit....

And your comments about the half price seahorses and £60 worth of free goods.

Makes me wonder about your LFS, people don't give things away for no reason and the shop is setup as a business so is there to make money not help people out.

And you really should take advice from anyone with a pinch of salt..... (always go with the majority not the odd one out. So if your mate tells you he's had luck keeping something with something means it is possible, but if 20 other people tell you something else then that "usually" means that your mate is the lucky one!)

Ask away, this forum is here (to make money for the owner) and to help people gain knowledge and keep healthy reef and fish tanks!

[chronic2005]

Ok, well that was long read
Firstly this not my first tank, i have had 2 years experiance and around 5 tanks.
secondly i did not just throw these seahorses in, i test the water every day and the day before i put the seahorses in the tests where
amm 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 2.5 it is now at 2
phosphates i admit where high but now they are at 0.2 as i purchased some rowaphos, earilier in this thread i said i am doing water changes with ro but filling it was not an option due to the amount of trips i would have to take, and i also said i run a poly filter to remove some of the chlorine and metals.
Takeing the seahorses back is not an option and i do not see why as they are both feeding well and show no signs of illness.
faysie, i still do believe your post was off putting but i do understand that it was your opion and you are just trying to help. I do not see how this can be a wind up as i have posted pictures of the set up and will post one with me in if you like.
My lfs friend has told me he ahs no luck with any thing i only said i take his advice because it has never been wrong, as for giveing me the 60 pounds worth i do not believe he is after some thing as i dont spend that much in their anyway (around 700 in 2 years, thats not much compared to what other people spend in their) i simply believe he is good honest friend of mine who wants to help me.
I am sorting my fuge out soon and i ahve said many times the clown is not a problem, i watch the seahorses for 15 minites during their feed to make sure they get enough and believe me they do. in 2 day i have used 1 cube of brine and 1 of mysis, i have said i trying to set put a differen ttank for the clown even though he is not an issue i just want more space for the horses. The reason i was mad at fassie is because his post can be interpreted as a dig that my seahorses will die which i am addiment is not the case, i respecthis opions but i just wish that it could be a little less off putting. Anyway my point is over,Could everyone please read this as many parts of my post have been said before but obviously not read.

Question
can anyone tell me how to get live brine shrimps, as my lfs does not stock it

thanks

[FaysieUK]

Thanks Leigh, Kim, Kev, I know your views are held in high regard by many experienced reefers and I thank you for coming in with your advice. Now, I think I am going to retire, very gratefully, from this thread with a clear conscience!

[bunglehaze]

Well, following this PM off Chronic2005 I will be offering no further help, guidance or opinion on any of his posts from now on, for transparency I have included my reply as well. Mods, this is not meant to get at the member but to outline why certain members do not post any more and offer valuable help to others, perhaps the younger reefers will take note!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Bungelhaze i would posted this in the thread but it is closed so that is not possible. I am extremely offended :angry: by your post in the thread made by faysie in reefs, You have no right saying that we have no maturity, fire enough we may not have the proper funding but i am always expanding my knowlage on this subject and do not just think it is any other hobbie. How do my you know my seahorses are going to die, my parameters are fine they are both feeding, i believe and i dont care what you say, that you think it is because of my age. And alos out of the young people on this board not one of us have said that er nemos are lying side ways, and i am positive i have not as i have never lost a fish and all the other young people i am sure will be offended by your post to. Please think about your post next time as that is the most insulting thing i have read on this board, and it does not give a good image of the board. Rant over
:angry:

Offended....

Well if you read the post again I did not say YOu lacked maturity, in fact I have shown you support and tried to help. I did state that in my experience young reefers lack maturity and funding which is often the case.

If you want to use a board like this to gain help fine.. but if you are going to throw a strop because you get an answer you dont like then dont expect much help.. Sorry but I dont think your system is right or ready for seahorses and I DO think that a reaction like this shows massive immaturity.

How do my you know my seahorses are going to die, my parameters are fine they are both feeding, i believe and i dont care what you say, that you think it is because of my age

In which case you will get no further help from me, I have clearly stated in both the posts I have made that your age is not a problem, if you want to throw a hissy fit you are doing it at the wrong person - quite frankly I dont care if I offend you if all I am doing is giving good honest advice and criticism, the offense is yours to deal with.

And alos out of the young people on this board not one of us have said that er nemos are lying side ways

Actually I dont think you have been around long enough to qualify that statement, a lot of us have been on this site and others for a hell of a lot longer than you have been keeping fish, in some cases before you were born. Do not believe for one second that you and any of the current young reefers are the first, most of them have joined, failed and given up - mainly because they did not like the advice given. And for your own reference, when I first joined UR my system was a bit more advanced than yours is now, not much though. My first post was met with the same kind of responses that yours have - you know why I am still here and my system is thriving? Because I listened to advice, started over with the right equipment and didnt take things so personally.



cheers

leigh :D

[Nath]

The problem as I see it chronic2005, is that you don't seem to be taking much on board!

Now I for one am all for youth in this hobby (we were all there once afterall). But one of the hardest things to do at your age is to resist temptation! And you've proved this by buying the Seahorses! I don't care if the LFS was offering them at £5 each, your motivation was a low price and NOT the welfare of the animals in question!

Several times you've been told that the food you are offering is probably insufficient in nutrition but you still reply with "they're eating well". I could eat sand 3 times a day but I'd soon be dead through starvation wouldn't I?

As Mikey has quite rightly pointed out this forum is about give and take. You will only get out of it what you put in (and any other cliché that you can think of).

You've asked for help and advice, and I can't help but think that you simply don't want to consider that there's a problem with what you're doing?

So, prove us all wrong (please) and sit down and discuss how you're going to support the life you have in your care. You have afterall made a commitment now (as you've stated you won't take the sea horses back).

[Elliott89]

I personally think this thread should be closed

Its only going to result with another experienced reefer leaving the board

JMO

Elliott

[Mikey]

Thread closed.

I haven't got time to constantly battle on with this one. I've tried my best to put across the message to topic starter et all, and PMs a plenty now!!

Apologies too all who invested effort into this thread trying to help.

Chronic - PM me if you have any problems with this.