View Full Version : Bicarbonate
is useing bicarbonate of soda ,to keep kh at required level,long term not a good idea ?
thanks
ben
5061litres
03-09-05, 15:40
i wouldn't personally.
use a proper additive such as Kalk, or even get a calcium reactor. if u have the money.
kalk can be added in a pop bottle, place 2 holes on the top, 1 to draw in air, and the other to take out water. mix 1-3 teaspoons of kalk powder in the bottle with some ro water, let the contents settle, and slowly drip the clear water into the tank, at nighttime preferably.
hth.
tony.
julesandsand
03-09-05, 16:05
Nothing wrong with adding bicarb in small quantities, I used to do it all the time before I got my Ca reactor. My book (Concientious Marine Aquarist - Fenner), advocates it so I did it.
I don't need to now as my alk is steady at 11 - 12.
dont calcium reactors or dripping kalk raise the calcium? ,which i dont want to do.
5061litres
03-09-05, 16:19
they keep it level. a calcium reactor without any additives is the best way to maintain a good alk, calcium content and ph.
jules.. ur alk is a bit high on 11-12.
NSW is 8.. the highest recommended in a reef tank is 10.5.
hth,
tony
julesandsand
04-09-05, 08:24
It's currently balancing my low Ca (350ppm) which will hopefully be rectified by dripping kal - we'll see.
That is if I can get a definitive answer as to what spec of peri pump I need to drip kalk at night. <_<
5061litres
04-09-05, 09:09
i never dripped the kalk in my tank, i let it pour through some ro tubing into a high flow area of the sump.
tony.
Originally posted by julesandsand@Sep 4 2005, 08:24
It's currently balancing my low Ca (350ppm) which will hopefully be rectified by dripping kal - we'll see.
That is if I can get a definitive answer as to what spec of peri pump I need to drip kalk at night. <_<
Uh..??
Dripping kalk will also have an upward influence on your DkH.
When you say balancing your calcium of 350 with a DkH of 11-12, can you explain that please?
My query is because those two figures are NOT in balance.
Matt
Long term adding of sodium Bicarb will raise the level of sodium in your water (as sodium doesn`t get depleted). So for any given SG reading you will have more sodium and less other other elements relative to what the level should be.
julesandsand
05-09-05, 17:19
When you say balancing your calcium of 350 with a DkH of 11-12, can you explain that please?
Well I was discussing this with the guys at UDA who are off the opinion that the low Ca is nothing to worry about if you have a high(ish) dkh, provided the Mg level is ok (which mine is). They drip kalk 24/7 into their display tank and have difficulty maintaining kh they tell me - they have to add buffer.
I'll just have to wait and see what effect adding kalk at night has on my system - assuming I ever get a suitable peri pump, that is. <_<
I think the Ca of 450, Mg of 1300 and dkh of 9 is an ideal but not an absolute.
Originally posted by danny@Sep 5 2005, 09:21
Long term adding of sodium Bicarb will raise the level of sodium in your water (as sodium doesn`t get depleted). So for any given SG reading you will have more sodium and less other other elements relative to what the level should be.
Long term adding of sodium Bicarb will raise the level of sodium in your water (as sodium doesn`t get depleted). So for any given SG reading you will have more sodium and less other other elements relative to what the level should be.
sodium ions will be exported to a certain extent with water changes
julesandsand
10-09-05, 11:27
jules.. ur alk is a bit high on 11-12.
According to http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm, a range of 7 - 11 for alk is satisfactory and a little bit higher is OK provided the other levels are OK (which I realise mine yet aren't).
I'm now thinking of taking the Ca reactor offline and using Turbocalcium or something similar to raise my Ca without affecting my alk and reintroducing the reactor when (if) I achieve the correct balance.
Jules,
Sounds like a good plan to me. Your calcium reactor/kalk are adding a balance of calcium and alkalinity. So you can't really change one aspect in isolation by using them.
The problem is that just because you are adding a nice balance doesn't mean that your tank will use it up in a nicely balanced way. Hence our problem with falling alkalinity and yours with low calcium.
A calcium chloride type additive will allow you to correct this. A handy side-effect is that when you add the calcium supplement chances are that your dKH will fall. At which point off you go with the calcium reactor again.
We like Kalk because it's a nice easy way to add a pretty balanced ratio of calcium:alkalinity and top-up evaporation losses as a bonus.
Using Kalk in conjunction with a calcium reactor also seems to work very well for many people. Kalk helps to counteract the CO2/pH issues often associated with calcium reactors.
A good trick is to run the calcium reactor when the lights are on and kalk when the lights are off. This provides a nice source of CO2 for photosynthesis in the day and handy pH assistance at night.
IMO your alkalinity isn't too high assuming that your pH isn't anything silly.
FWIW we find a good aim point is: 7 - 11 dKH with 380 – 450 ppm calcium. Don't get too obsessed with the numbers! At the end of the day this is a nice broad range not a magic set point away from which lies instant disaster.
If your test kit says 350 ppm calcium then you can be pretty certain that you have somewhere between 300 and 400 ppm. Some good kits (Salifert & Red Sea) can apparently resolve to +/- 10ppm. If you are using one of these then yes your calcium is a little low and it's going to require more energy for your corals etc to extract it.
HTH
Andrew (UA)
julesandsand
10-09-05, 17:23
Andrew,
I've discussed this at length in the shop with Ian, and the reason I was using the Ca reactor and not the Kalk stirrer was that my pH was on the high side. I had planned to get a peristaltic pump to drip kalk at night as you suggest, but shelved that plan when my alk went of the scale (it's now at 13 and I've just turned the Ca reactor off and will be doing a scheduled water change tomorrow).
When I was running the Ca reactor 24/7 my pH range was 8 - 8.2, on throttling it back it was 8.2 - 8.45. I'll see how it is tomorrow with the reactor off.
A good trick is to run the calcium reactor when the lights are on and kalk when the lights are off. This provides a nice source of CO2 for photosynthesis in the day and handy pH assistance at night.
Sounds like an excellent plan once I achieve a degree of balance. Besides remember I spent £125 on a new motor for the Deltec stirrer! :lol:
IMO your alkalinity isn't too high assuming that your pH isn't anything silly.
What's a 'silly' pH? Ian was of the opinion that 8.5 - 8.6 during the day in a reef tank is OK. What about 8.7, 8.8?
I had a look around your site - you don't appear to stock Turbo Calcium, or did I miss it
Don't get too obsessed with the numbers!
I refer the honourable gentleman to a reply I gave earlier. :lol:
I think the Ca of 450, Mg of 1300 and dkh of 9 is an ideal but not an absolute.
By heck a high pH, you lucky so and so! Most folks with calcium reactors moan about low pH and struggle like mad to get it up (so to speak).
Yes pH 8.8 is approaching "silly". It should be noted that this is a metric "silly" adjusted for standard temperature and pressure.
The rough upper limit would be about pH 9, all sorts of horrid things happen after that. So yes I would agree, putting the Kalk stirrer on just now might not be the best of plans :lol:
You are right we don't stock Kent (pauses to spit) anything-long story :ph34r:
We do however stock the excellent Seachem Reef Advantage Calcium which rather cunningly includes strontium and magnesium in the correct ratios. A neat idea which stops one upsetting things too much.
julesandsand
11-09-05, 10:14
Pasenah - sincere apologies for hijacking your thread.
Andrew - OK, Seachem Ca additive it is, (I won't mention K### again, there's been far too much swearing on here recently :lol: )
I'll be in on Tuesday so unless you have lots of stock, please lay a bottle aside for me, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the changes you're making.
I've made up a batch of water for a water change using Reef Crystals, I'll be interested to see what the Ca level in the fresh mix is. I was previously using Red Sea salt which was, reputedly, low in Ca (although I never tested it).
no worries about the thread hi-jack,it kinda went off the mark a while back but hey its all knowledge :rolleyes:
julesandsand
11-09-05, 11:17
but hey its all knowledge
exactly. :thumbsup:
BTW How do you feel now about adding bicarb?
julesandsand
11-09-05, 19:06
I've tested the new water prepared with reef crystals. Ca measures at 410, so I guess a 20% water change isn't going to have a major effect on the level in the tank.
Unless of course, I'm prepared to do a 20% water change every other day (not) :lol:
Mid afternoon pH is 8.55, Ca is 380 (post water change) and alk is 11.5, so I suppose I'm not too far away.
Originally posted by julesandsand@Sep 11 2005, 10:17
but hey its all knowledge
exactly. :thumbsup:
BTW How do you feel now about adding bicarb?
well , i would use it in an emergency ,but for what we spend on the up keep of our cherished aquaria and the cost of a tub of aquarium buffer its not worth the gamble.
Originally posted by pasenah+Sep 11 2005, 18:10--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pasenah @ Sep 11 2005, 18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-julesandsand@Sep 11 2005, 10:17
BTW How do you feel now about adding bicarb?
well , i would use it in an emergency ,but for what we spend on the up keep of our cherished aquaria and the cost of a tub of aquarium buffer its not worth the gamble. [/b][/quote]
What's in a bottle of proprietory pH buffer or alkalinity supplement that isn't bicarbonate (or at a push, a mix of bicarbonate and carbonate) ?
And given that many "brand name" products don't explicitly tell you about the ingredients and their purity, aren't they in fact more of a risk than the simple components of guaranteed quality from a laboratory supplier ?
All the brand names do is repackage the stuff, withhold information and charge a silly price for their effort. There's no need to use any of them.
:P
kim
I can see it now.....
"Kim's no messing reef supplements"
We tell you what it is, and don't charge the earth.
Kev
kim,
thats fine if its true but can you proove it.if its a gamble either way at least if theres a problem then you can say its not your fault for using somthing that isnt labeled for aquarium use, if you understand what i mean.im all for using cheaper methods if someone has had no problems.
The gamble is paying 5 - 10 times the going price for something which is unlabelled.
There's no gamble buying laboratory grade, labelled chemicals where the supplier can also (on request) provide an assay of purity.
Kev :)
Hopefully we can make some progress at the next meeting !
kim
julesandsand
12-09-05, 10:03
[QUOTE]thats fine if its true but can you proove it.if its a gamble either way[QUOTE]
No proof is required, I buy my soda bic and mag sulph at the local pharmacy and it has to be pharmaceutical grade. No such restrictions apply to the repackaged stuff as far as I'm aware. That's not to say they're any less pure, but they're sure as hell a LOT more expensive.
I used soda bic to keep my kH up (although not at the moment obviously) and use Magnesium Sulphate to keep my Mg levels up.
Were my kH not too high I would be using labpak calcium hydroxide in my kalk stirrer.
It's a similar situation with medicines - generic Ibuprofen is a fraction of the cost of branded Nurofen, but they're the same.
Originally posted by kim@Sep 12 2005, 08:09
The gamble is paying 5 - 10 times the going price for something which is unlabelled.
There's no gamble buying laboratory grade, labelled chemicals where the supplier can also (on request) provide an assay of purity.
Kev :)
Hopefully we can make some progress at the next meeting !
kim
the thing is ,if you use stuff from the chemist for say 2 years and you start having problems of some kind ,if you try to work out the problem people may start to blame the products your using.if you knew the powder in the tubs from the lfs was the same as from the chemist then there is no argument.as you say ,we know what the stuff from the chemist is but what are the long term effects?
julesandsand
12-09-05, 16:14
As I said earlier, Fenner adds bicarbonate to his tanks on a weekly basis, and he has many years more experience than me.
As for Mg there's no other way I would add it other than magnesium sulphate.
well ,after this nice long discussion i have changed my mind,mabye i will get it from the chemist.
pasenah,
Glad to hear it! IMO There's nothing wrong with using good quality sodium bicarbonate to raise KH. But, I wouldn't use "Builder's Bicarb" should such a thing exist ;)
Obviously, with adding bicarb on it's own you need to watch for precipitation of calcium, magnesium, and strontium if you push the alk up too much.
The "better" KH additives include these to avoid depletion. As said above the "simple" KH additives are only sodium bicarbonate anyway.
FWIW The amount that you would skew the sodium content of a 35ppt solution of predominantly sodium chloride by doing this would be b*gger all. Assuming you aren't tipping it in by the kilo.
Couldn't agree more, most manufacturers not telling you what is in their products is very annoying. I always get the feeling that these are the ones that daren't tell you. Hence, our love of Seachem who list the ingredients on the backs of most of their packs.
Now if they would just list the proportions we could go into production :idea:
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.