View Full Version : Phosphate Yes Or No?
5061litres
12-09-05, 16:03
Over the past couple of months have have done a kind of experiment to ascertain whether or not phosphate is a good or bad thing in a reef tank.
it started like this: 1,i kept lookin in my tank, and on some days the corals colours were vibrant and on others they'd look dull and washed out.
2,While reading on another site(blasphamy) i read through some posts saying that they experienced the same visuals as i did.
3,So as u do, i decided to find out why.
4,It seems that a tank totally devoid of any phosphates leaves nothing for the zooxlanthellae in the corals to feed on.
5,So i set about a slight experiment.
every day the tank was fed the same amount of food, comprising of 3 small cubes of brineshrimp, 1xdouble cube of mysis, 5ml of phyto and 2 large freeze dried krill.
On day 1 i put a 20grams of phosphate in a bag in my sump. Phosphate measured 0.08.
day3 phosphate was down to 0.01 and on day 4 it was undetectable. colours on the corals were dull, the tank just seemed dull and hazy.
on day 7 i took out the bag of phosphate. phosphate was still 0.
on day 9 phosphate had risen to 0.03 and the corals were starting to look more vibrant. the water was clearer too.
day 12-14phospahtes levelled out at 0.05 and the tank looked same throughout, clear and nice bright deep colours.
on day 14 i put 20grams of phosphate in a bag and set it in my sump. within a couple of days phosphate had dropped again to zero. the tank looked hazy again, with the loss of vibrant colours.
on day 20 i took out the no phos and left the tank as is. again, in a few days the colours came back and the tank was clear agin. phosphate stays around 0.05 but no higher.
my conclusion:
With a slight level of phosphate corals are able to feed, and look a lot healthier.
comments anyone?
i'm not in any way sayin that you should not use a phosphate remover, i'm just sayin that this is what works for me..
tony. :thumbsup:
Interesting. What test kit were you measuring phosphate with?
chronic2005
12-09-05, 16:33
Hi
Wow, their someone commited, thinking about it, it actually makes sense, but most things do in my world :lol: . Maybe a few more of the experianced reefers could put their input in. I do however have a sorta of experiance with this, on my old nano (13 gallon) i had 5 corals in and all did well, apart from 4 months down the line, when i came home from holiday, and the tank had had a MAJORalgea bloom which had spread over the corals. On this tank i was not using phosphate remover. On my nano (13 gallon) i ran a phospahte remover, and found that my xenia was suffering, even though i used the same methods, but with different stock. So my opion is that phosphates are good as long as they are kept to a low level (net zero) thats what i drawing up anyway. :thanx:
have done the same thing but i was more intreasted in the nitrate at the time
never thought of phosphate in a good way but suppose trace ammounts are required for the production of atp used in respiration.
i know with low levels of nitrate your corals will look washed out, due them starving with lack of nitrate.
was it only phosphate you were measuring ?
Dont forget that the presence of phosphate prohibits the calcification process and there by reduces growth :thumbsup:
Although we are always trying to limit the introduction of nutrients such as iron and phosphate in our tanks, the fact remains that algae and even zooxanthellae require some trace amounts of the nutrients to thrive.
Taken from this interesting article (http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part2.htm).
Tony
chronic2005
12-09-05, 17:51
Very intersted in this, more opinons?
5061litres
12-09-05, 17:54
i did only measure for phosphates with a salifert kit.
On the growth front, i went by how much the pink hysterix grew from day to day, and i must say that when not adding phos remover, the coral grew quicker.
i didn't measure for nitrates, but i suspect that they were higher than 0.
tony.
Life cannot exist without consuming phosphate.....by the same token, all food contains a bit !
Fwiw, hobbyist test kits only detect inorganic phosphate and standard ferric oxide removers only act on inorganic phosphate. So we miss the first stage of the phosphate cycle, which is organic phosphate. Simon H once measured this....IIRC he said it was usually only a small % of the inorganic level in his tank, but even that may act as a reserve from which livestock can extract their needs.
Others seemed to have problem with discontinuous use of ferric oxides, suggesting that changes in phosphate levels ("phosphate shock") rather than absolute levels might be important. Plus, these things are complex chemicals and may be having some kind of other effect, eg via changing of pH or removal of other ionic species. It's something to follow. For many, they have zero negative effect.
But for sure, the day we remove all phosphate from our tanks, the tanks are dead.
kim
oh okay so thats intreasting that low levels of phosphate encouraged growth
i know that on a molecular level things need phosphate to survive but that level of phosphate would be untraceable i would presume
maybe worth trying your experiment with nitrate also to see if the results run togethor or in seperate directions :thumbsup:
5061litres
12-09-05, 19:53
i'll let u know in a month then.. :thumbsup:
tony
It would be useful if you could measure phosphates with the Deltec test kit. I found it hard to judge phosphates below 0.1 ppm with the Salifert kit and I would guess that the useful phosphate level is well below this.
The article I quoted earlier also suggests that low levels of Ammonia are useful aswell. However I don't know of a kit that will measure Ammonia usefully at those low levels.
Knowing your Nitrate levels will also be useful.
Interesting research. I look forward to more from you.
Tony
cool i would do it but i aint got enough fish to increase feeding without it just laying there un eaten :lol:
chronic2005
12-09-05, 23:18
Confusing as ever Kim :wacko:
5061litres
12-09-05, 23:26
jimmy, how would u say i went about that particular experiment?
tony.
i suppose it wil be hard to do but could you measure your nitrate whilst running a phosphate remover so you can increase the nitrate but keep the phosphate lower so you get a true result
but if your fuge is very good its going to be very hard without adding nitrate as a liquid suplement
let me know how you get on though, very good topic :thumbsup:
the same could be said about nitrate levels in the water, are they good or bad? i think its all to do with keeping all the parims at low levels, or as close to nature as poss. look at OZ at the moment they are having problems with sediment leaching into the coral sea and causing algae to growth. i think it has something to do with fertilizers escaping into the water course and getting into the sea. it would be nice to find out at what levels the coral sea has of No3 and Po4.
Originally posted by bony@Sep 12 2005, 22:33
it would be nice to find out at what levels the coral sea has of No3 and Po4.
Google.
If you are intersted, the answers are there. Or a basic book.
kim
Interesting idea Tony,
It would be interesting to see how the organic phosphate levels vary.
I'd also be interested if the organic phosphate levels change at night, wether phosphate is released after certain "events" which would then follow on from your point about the vibrance of your corals changing.
I wonder why the levels change (if that is the cause of the change in vibrance) and if they do what chain of events might this start??
Kev
5061litres
14-09-05, 13:18
can anyone tell me where i'd get an organic phosphate kit from..?
tony.
I don't think you can test for organic phosphate with a kit, it's a colorimetric or fluorimetric process for which you'll need some fancy equipment.
Kev
thanks for the kick in nuts Kim :angry:
i meant the levels of No3 and Po4 in the problem ares of NSW!
thanks for your reply.
Kim is right with what he says about trace amounts being essential, but I'd be very cautious though about raising phosphate levels above natural levels in my tank.
I think it's well worth monitoring but I'd be more inclined to assume your corals respond better to Nitrate and not to Phosphate unless you had super super low levels in the first place.
As already proved in scientific papers (sorry I can't find any to show you) that phosphate is a calcification poison and blocks calcification sites.
Judging the colour of your corals as to how bright they are, relative (especially in very short periods of time) as to their health is also risky IMO. I've had instances in the past where corals coloured up so intensely that I thought I was doing the business only to find that within weeks they RTN'd and died completely. Quite what the cause was I never found out but the colours for a short time were out of this world.
SUK on this site also had problems at one time with some of his corals improving in colour to the point where they were almost glowing, only to find the colony's affected also crashed and had to be fragged.
JMO
5061litres
14-09-05, 19:23
hmm..
from colour up to rtn/loss what was the time scale in urs and suk's tank??
tony.
Glenn@home
16-09-05, 12:29
But for sure, the day we remove all phosphate from our tanks, the tanks are dead
FWIW I thought that it had been reasonably well established that acceptable levels of phopshates, nitrates, etc were as found in nature?
In other words they are typically well below levels that we can measure with the test kits we use.
This doesnt preclude measureable levels having some effects on our corals which we perceive as benificial, at least in the short term.
But this has to beg the question, how do we know for certain that the corals, or indeed any other critter is 'happy' as opposed to simply surviving?
Personally I cannot see benifits for the critters in being housed in an envrionment where we deliberately try to elevate, or reduce, a particular parameter outside of what would be considered a 'natural range'.
I guess it depends on what youre after, i know i want my hard corals to grow, and it would be ok i suppose if they grew very quickly, but i would prefer it if they grew eventually to the size i want them and know that chances are they will be with me for a long time.
Finally coouration for me should ideally be as found in nature rather than something very vivid and bright whihc may be entirley unnatural. As i recall from snorkelling on reefs there are some very vivid colours to be seen, so it is possible using natures way.
JMHO
Glenn
very good point :thumbsup: could not agree more.
Phosphates in a marine tank.....
Interesting, I suppose its not dissimilar to humans and phosphoric acid (common on Cola) causing brittle bones and poor bone density.
Going to be a worry when the current young generation grows up!
Drinking fizzy drinks.... (http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/9/soda_dangers.htm)
"Phosphorus - Phosphorus is commonly believed to influence calcium absorption, but the jury is still out on its practical effect.
Researchers believe that phosphorus tends to suppress the urinary loss of calcium. However, too much phosphorus may accelerate loss of bone. To keep your phosphorus level in line, avoid consuming large quantities of foods labeled as containing sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, phosphoric acid, pyrophosphate, or polyphosphate."
Taken from http://www.pdrhealth.com/content/nutrition...rs/fgnt28.shtml (http://www.pdrhealth.com/content/nutrition_health/chapters/fgnt28.shtml)
Kev
Glenn@home
18-09-05, 17:27
Going to be a worry when the current young generation grows up!
DO you know if this applies to Stella? As Im on my third pint tonight i wouldnt want to drink any more if my legs were going to snap when i get up?
Hmmmmmmmm, maybe my approach should be different, I wouldnt want to get up if I drink anymore and my legs were going to snap.
Please help, can i get out of this chair or should i stay put, ps my target is seven or eight pints of stella, does that make any difference?
Please help, can i get out of this chair or should i stay put, ps my target is seven or eight pints of stella, does that make any difference?
Don't move until you have finished the eight pints. Then you'll be ok 'cos your legs will have gone floppy. :lol:
Originally posted by ~Tony~@Sep 18 2005, 19:00
Don't move until you have finished the eight pints. Then you'll be ok 'cos your legs will have gone floppy. :lol:
Glenn,
Your plinth in Trafalgar Square awaits. Just to add insult to injury, Tracey Emin will arrange your floppy limbs in an artistic manner to suggest the consumption of several cans of Stella and the proud and unyielding rebellion against mainstream toxicology that this represents.
Provisionally, we intend to call it "Binger Glenn IV (2005)".
If (after eighteen months) we can still find you underneath the guano, you will be relocated to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, and Tracey and I will share the £500,000.
:lol:
kim
Glenn@home
19-09-05, 19:03
Well Im sober now and wouldnt relish the thought of ms emin fiddling with my limbs :lol:
But of course i do acknowledge that no matter how i feel about her or her work that some think its good art.
Glenn
PS should we leave this to the general discussions or have i cpmlpetely hijacked this thread?
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