Nitrate Levels

[spssco]

Hello

I have shocking Nitrate Readings of 50ppm I have done 2 x 10% Water changes and 1 x 25% Water. But still cant manage to get the Nirate Down. Can old Filter media rise the Nitrate levels?. I have had the Media for 7 months now probably. Its a Eheim 2128 Thermo with 1 Section with Eheims Biological Media and rest is Rowa,Carbon with Filter pads. I have got my own RO Filter now aswell so i am getting almost pure quality water. So still with the pure quality water after 3-4 changes it still doesnt go down :wacko:

Marine Tank 4x2x2
Eheim 2128 Thermo
Deltec MCE 600
Arcadia T5 Luminare
Salifert Tests kits

Pav

[KeithM]

Can old Filter media rise the Nitrate levels

yes it can, especially with the ehiem media.

However, Do you have sufficient live rock and flow around your rock?

[spssco]

Hi

I got 30kg of Live Rock for almost 2yrs now with decent Flow with 1x maxijets and lets add the skimmer pump n also eheim pump.

1x1200L/h Maxijets


Tank its like a 280L Tank about 55gallon Rena 120x55x44


Pav

[instantsquid]

Hi,

Not sure if I understood your last post about flow. Is there just a single MaxiJet 1200 in your tank? The skimmer pump certainly doesn't count! But what's this other "Eheim pump". I would have said it doesn't sound like you have enough water movement around your live rock. But you also need to look at things like the water you use for water changes - does that have any Nitrates - do you use RO water? Also, your feeding regime may be worth examining. I struggled with high nitrates for a while, but have now got them down to zero (or near as dammit! :lol: )

- Ian.

[spssco]

Hello

Yes i have the following

1 Maxijet 1200 ( i had 2 maxijets but the other one burnt out 4 months ago)

I have just changed my filter media today aswell

I have also bought a RO Filter so i am getting 0 TDS Water

Will see how it goes, i have already done 5 water changes to try to drop the Nitrate Levels.

1) 10%
2) 10%
3) 20%
4) 10%
5 10%

I have noticed some changes in the behaviour of the fishies especially my Tang.

I have not noticed any nitrate drops from my salifert test kits but i am sure it will drop now with new media and 0 TDS water.

Pav

[]-[ellcat]

U need WAY more flow. 1 pump for a 280 ltr? Not enough, I have 3 pumps just for my 180ltr. Now, if you want your nitrate readings to drop, I would reccomend taking your Eheim Filter off completely. Those filer pads and media, although reducing nitrates and ammonia, are breeding nitrates. You sould like you have enough live rock to take care of filtration (Nitrites/ammonia etc). With the Deltec 600 skimmer, you have enough filtration to keep your nitrate levels down. (I have the same skimmer, my nitrates never reach above 20)

So I suggest:

- more flow (at least 2 more pumps)
- ditch the Ehiem filter

I had the Ecco 2234 Eheim filter on my tank, My nitrates were always in the 40's. I ditched the filter, replaced with more LR and added the MC600. My nitrates were reduced dramatically.

If your only heater is in the Eheim, I suggest buying a seperate heater.


By all means go into some more research, but you will probably find the same answer, get rid of the Eheim.

Hope this helps.

[bigray]

how old is you test kit might be faulty

[~Tony~]

Your flow is very low - 1200 l/h maxijet and 1000 l/h eheim filter = (1200+1000)/280 = 8x turnover. You should be looking at 20x or more for your live rock to filter efficiently.
For instance, in my 250 lt tank I have 3x 1000 l/h circulation pumps, a 1200 maxijet, and a 12,000 l/h stream alternating between 30% and 80% output.

Your filter pads will need cleaning or changing every few days - or remove them completely, otherwise they will become ammonia generators. The biological media is excellent at converting ammonia as far as nitrates but does not complete the job. Live rock is capable of converting ammonia, nitrite and nitrate if it has enough flow all around it. I would add two more maxijet 1200 now (or a Tunze stream - but that is expensive) and make sure that the flow is good and around as much of the surface of the rock as possible. You should then consider slowly removing the biological media from the filter and let the live rock take on the load.

Have you tested the Nitrate in your fresh salt mix. It is possible that the RO unit needs a new membrane - worth checking.

Remember a 10% water change will only bring your Nitrates down from 50 ppm to 45 ppm which is barely detectable on the Salifert test kit. Unless you are doing daily water changes it is probably only keeping pace with your nitrate production. You really need to find he cause of the nitrates.
Are you overfeeding? Have you too many fish? Is the tank kept clean of detritus?

hth
Tony

[spssco]

Hi

I had a Tunze Stream but it used to make a like a wave in my Tank and the Fish never used to come on the Side where the Tunze used to be. Also the Sand used to go all over the place. But i might invest in the Tunze powerheads now. If you scroll up and members say that "Filter pads" cause problems so if i get rid of these in my filter and keep rowaphos, carbon, and use it as a heater that should be ok no?

Pav

[zimreef]

Originally posted by ~Tony~@Jan 8 2006, 21:29
Your filter pads will need cleaning or changing every few days - or remove them completely, otherwise they will become ammonia generators.
I'm sure this was a slip of the tongue with Tony ;) but as it may be confusing if you're not familiar the nitrogen cycle I'll tale a liberty and correct him :P - ammonia is produced by the fish waste etc, and this is converted by the external filter to nitrite and then nitrate. The filter itself does not produce ammonia.

If your TDS reading on the RO water produced from your RO unit is zero, you definitely won't need to change your membrane. :)

HTH :thumbsup:

John

[~Tony~]

Originally posted by zimreef+Jan 8 2006, 22:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (zimreef @ Jan 8 2006, 22:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-~Tony~@Jan 8 2006, 21:29
Your filter pads will need cleaning or changing every few days - or remove them completely, otherwise they will become ammonia generators.
I'm sure this was a slip of the tongue with Tony ;) but as it may be confusing if you're not familiar the nitrogen cycle I'll tale a liberty and correct him :P - ammonia is produced by the fish waste etc, and this is converted by the external filter to nitrite and then nitrate. The filter itself does not produce ammonia.[/b][/quote]
Thanks John, insufficiently explained. It is not the filter pads themselves that produce ammonia, but the uneaten food and solid wastes that are trapped by this mechanical filter that, if left, are broken down into ammonia by the heterotrophic bacteria. Hence the reason for regular cleaning.

Pav, yes, keep the external filter for rowaphos and carbon, and the extra flow it provides. And you might as well use the heater.

Tony

[spssco]

Hi guys

I have got rid of the Filter pads now and got The Tunze powerheads

2x 4000L/p with mutli controller

Does it matter if they hanging on the side or do they have to be in the live rock somewhere for better results in good flow.

Pav

[julesandsand]

Hanging on the sides is good using the multicontroller to produced irregular flow and surface agitation to aid gas exchange. This will greatly enhance the denitrifying ability of your LR and hopefully reduce your nitrates.

Good luck :thumbsup:

[Scott D]

Hello All
Just read the thread and am experiencing similar problems. I too have eheim w&d filter and eheim media(2 internal baskets - 12 month ols now). Cannot get nitrates below 20, 25 ppm. (salifert test - 5 wks old).
4 MAXIJET P/HEADS:
1X 1000 P/h
1X 1200 P/h
1x 500 P/h
1x 600 P/h
Prism delux skimmer (just bought turbo floater 1000 SL)
Not much live rock (maybe 3kg)
Antiphos FE (only 5 weeks old and algae back on glass with a vengence-need to test phosphates)

Can anyone tell please me:
1) What is the potential concern with eheim media?
2) Recomend a different (good) bio-media?
3) Recomend a way to change the media without adverse effect?

Be kind with your comments, I am new at this.
Cheers

[Frogfone]

Hi Scott

Unfortunatley you have an entirely different problem from spsco. With only 3kg of live rock in your tank you have no way to complete the nitrogen cycle and as such your cannisters are your main source of filtration and can only go as far as NO3.

Nitrate will build up in any non-liverock based system unless a strict water change regimen is kept to. Live Rock really is wonderful stuff and helps most of us keep out nitrates down without excessive water changes.

There is no real problem with any cannister media other than it collects detritus which can not be dealt with by the clean up crew and ultimately the liverock. As you don't have any live rock as such you are relying on your eheim as your biological filtration and should not remove it or change it until you have liverock that can take it's place.

If Live rock is not an option, you are going to have to look at water changes to reduce your nitrates

Sharon

[Scott D]

Thanx Sharon

How much rock for 4ftx18"x15" would be recomended?
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploads/tank%20algae%20jan%2006.JPG

Cheers

[Johnt]

Recommended amount of LR for 48x18x15 is 23.5 Kgs. :thumbsup:


John.

[Johnt]

Hi, the rock in your tank appears to be mainly ocean rock which won't filter the water, if possible i would replace with live rock can be expensive i know but worth it.


John.

[Bradden]

How can you tell if it's live rock or ocean rock?


I bet some unscrupulous LFS's pass off Ocean as Live...

I have been told my several shops that they have Turbo snails when they are really Trochus ...or maybe it's the accent :lol:

[Gavin Smith]

I've got a 48x24x15 tank and I've got about 30ish kg in there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/gavnnik/fdb1e20f.jpg

[Johnt]

Originally posted by Bradden@Jan 19 2006, 17:36
How can you tell if it's live rock or ocean rock?


I bet some unscrupulous LFS's pass off Ocean as Live...

I have been told my several shops that they have Turbo snails when they are really Trochus ...or maybe it's the accent :lol:
Ocean rock is smooth and dense, live rock is rough and very porous. I will try and get a pic of ocean rock.



John.

[Johnt]

Ocean Rock.



John.

[Scott D]

Cheers Johnt.
That pic is like my rock. I will lookat changing rockwork (dont think I will get any favour from missus when I explan that the bulk of the rock will have to be gradualy replaced

Gavin Smith
What are your water parameters like with 30 kg of LR??
Must go now, Vodka geting warm.
Thanks fellas

[Glenn@home]

I disagree with the comments about external fitration and its inability to reduce no3 to n2 and o2.

Its specifically what some of them aredesgined to do, whether its very efficient is another matter.

Most people dont like externals, i never used one on my reef except as a means of holding carbon, but ehiem do claim this is what they are for.

Incidentally over the few years ive been coming on here there have been a number of poeople using externals with low or zero nitrates so i guess its about getting things right for your given system rather than any absolute rights and wrongs.

Eheim do make recommendations abot cleaning/replacing the substrate in their filters though and it would be wise if you want it to stand a chance of working at its optimum level that you at least visit their website and read what they think.

Re live rock vs ocean rock, i dont think it matters what you call it, its about structure, the dense rock doesnt obviously offer a large surface area suitable for colonisation by suitabel bacteria, doesnt mean it cannot be of use in a atank.

I woldnt go throwing your exisitng rock out unless a) you have enough moeny to raplce it with a good quality lr or B) you think its doing some harm.

Many people use cheaper rock to form a base upon whihc to rest their expensive lr.

JMHO

Glenn

[sinder255248]

I have a canister with bio media and a sponge in it, I clean the sponge every 2 weeks, and have 0 nitrates. I do have about 40kg of live rock though.