help please, i think my clown fish is sick?

[chiptoxic]

Hi all, one of my clownfish (im sure Amphiprion percula but may be Amphiprion ocellaris) seems to be taking a turn for the worse. As far as i can tell his colour has dulled, looks slightly dirty. Looks like he also seems to be having trouble breathing (rapid, shallow breathing). He also seems so stay in the same area of my tank, about 1 cm off the floor and not swimming much. He does seem to be alot more active once the lights go out. He does spend most of his time now at the other end of the tank to my other 3 clowns.

Im hoping someone can give me some advice as to what may be causing it and what i can do to help him if he is indeed ill. I hope i have supplied all the information you could possible want.

my tank readings are: (as of 6/3/2006 )

temp 27c
salinity 1.024
ph 8.2
nitrite 0
nitrate 20
ammonia 0
phosphate 0.25
ca 460



NOTES:
------
the fish that seems to be ill was added on 25-2-06 along with another. This second clown is doing fine and is always swimming about with the other two clowns i added on the 4-3-06.

i know NITRATE abit high but im using tap water treated with aquasafe, just until i order a RO sometime within the next 2 weeks. i been reading anything under 40 is workable but to aim for 10 or below.


i recently added some "cleanwater aquarium filter meda" to my filter that should help remove nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. But as of yet not seen any change. This is only until i get a RO unit than ill just stick to rowa phos to help keep phosphate under control if i need it.

I did remove my UGF on the 3/3/06 so had to put clowns in a bucket for about an hour while i did the work but this should not have stressed the fish all that much as i was quick.

I didn't get around to taking new water readings before sending this message tonight except the temp/salinity, but my water has been staying at these same levels for about the last 6 weeks so they should be accurate.

i been feeding them:
--------------------
* a small amount of tetra marine flake food at about 6.00am
* a bigger helping at 4.30pm of either flakes or one of the following mysis, artemia, fine cockles (duch select food, the small frozen cubes). I been using about half a cube but think this is alittle too much as i only have 4 clowns, 2 shrimps and 4 hermit crabs. This is there main meal
* at about 8.00pm a small amount of flakes
* and sometimes just before i go to bed at about 11.00 - 12-00pm another small pinch of flakes.

My lights
---------
Light tube: 2 x 30W 36" (895mm)
one is a blue/white colour daylite the other is orange/white colour warmite.
Im going to be buying a new light setup withing the next 3 - 8 weeks think a Arcadia Series 3 unit (1 x 150w 14,000k Metal Halide Lamp and 2 x 18w Marine Blue Actinic Tubes) still not decided what setup to go for. When costing between £250 - £600 for the units i been looking at, it demands more research before i sell out my cash :)

[cajen]

Hi, ct. Thanks for the PM. Has your clown been attacked / chased / bothered by any of the other 3? He may be showing signs of stress.

BTW, can you get lfs RO water for changes until your unit is delivered?

Cheers

[SCOOB]

hmmm as above i'd check hes not being bullied and the stress is what you are seeing. stress is fatal to fish if sustained for too long. can you sump him at all or setup a hospital tank in darkness, light doesn't help a stressed fish. have a look for 'fin nipping' around his pectorals and tail.

also with the heavy breathing, how much o2 do you have in your tank, plenty of surface movement? are you running a skimmer.

you say he has changed colour, do you have an anemone. i have found that clowns get darker as they inhabit a new nem, possibly due to them building up a mucus layer.

does he show any sign of white spot, marine velvet etc etc. does he have a white dusting like sugar granules on his body.

hope he makes it but be prepared for the worst.

[chiptoxic]

im at work at the moment so cant aswer all you questions until i get home. but hear is what i can tell you.

i do have a skimmer (berline air lift 60 internal protine skimmer (31 cm, upto 60 gallons/240 litre)) although at the moment it has a air stone in it this is only temperary as the old lime wood that was in there broke when i removed it and the replacement i had was one size too big. I should get this sorted by the weekend.

i think when i removed the UGF and had 2 of my clowns in a bucket for an hour the one thats ill did get botherd but only saw this happen about 3 times while theye where in it. So dont think that should have stressed him too much, especialy as they both seemed fine when introduced back to my main tank as i kept an eye on the for the first two or three hours and they seemed happy. I have never seen them bothering each other in my main tank

Getting RO water would be possible but abit of a pain as i cant drive. I should be fine with the treated tap water until i order a RO unit which i think ill order at the weekend so it arives next wednesday - friday.

i dont have a sump but do have a 18 liter tank ready to use as a QT tank if i need it which it sounds like i do now.

I have ajusted my main tank light this morring before i went to work so thay stay off alot longer.

didnt notice any signs of fin nipping

for water movemeny i have a Interpet PH4 powerhead (flowrate 1000l/hr, 220 gal/hr) and of cource the flow from my intank filter (Juwel Filter System: Compact H) i do plan to add another idetical powerhead soon.

i havn't done an o2 test but think i have a test kit at home so i will do that test to check things later when i get home from work.

i dont have an anemone yet im new to this hobby and thought its best to wait awhile atleast until i get my new lights and understand all the extra tests and additives needed in keeping them.

He does not have a white dusting like sugar granules on his body so im sure its not white spot

i just looked up what marine velvet is and it sounds possible except i have not seen my clown scratching. Im guessing my scratching people mean rubbing against glass, rocks etc

ill have to check my log but im sure its was a few days after the UGF was removed so dont think it can be stress from that.

question: how long does it take befor a fish shows signs of stress


anyway thanks for all your help so far, im hopeing i can sort this without loseing my clown

[BOXING SHRIMP]

not gonna try to guess what is up with your clown but my advise to you would be to get some good marine keeping books from library etc and read read read thats the only way i learnt and if it worked for me it should work for anybody good luck and hope all goes well rich..;)

[chiptoxic]

i do have quite a few books, the internet and of cource local fish shops to go ask questions and get answers. But its always nice to hear other people thoughts. And that way i might even learn something new that was not in my books.

Anyway after everything i have read and heard it sounds like it may just be stress caused by the other 3 clowns bothering the one that looks ill. I just got home and cant see the clown that look ill at the moment he must be hideing in between the rocks, that or he been abducted by aliens :). Ill stick him in my QT tank when i find him as long as he is ok still.

[cajen]

Ct, this may be a combination of factors: the stress caused by recent changes, other fish and imperfect water quality (not every problem is highlighted by the normal water tests and I for one don't trust Wessex Water!). The problem now is to reduce this stress. Catching him out to quarantine may do as much harm as good - can a temporary tank divider be used? Longer term - I think you'll have to upgrade your protein skimmer to a powered version and do some water changes with RO. PM me and I'll provide you (and your water) with transport if you like.

HTH

[Clarkii]

Did you add two clowns then add another two some time later ?

Are they all the same species ?

Its possible you have added two females and the weaker one has taken a bit of a beating.

You only want one female and certainly only one species in there, sorry if this has been covered already.

Hope the little guys improves

[chiptoxic]

yes i did add two clowns and then another two later. and they are all the same species. Im sure i have one female and the rest male, but they can change sex dont the more dominant become the female?.

anyway last night after work i was already to put the ill clown in my QT tank but could not find him. so after about 2 hours of looking on and off i found him. Looks like he must have died when i was at work :). I wish i had either got up early and done it or missed my train and just got to work an hour or 2 late. I wont make this mistake again.

anyway thanks for all you help

[instantsquid]

Why the smilie? :(

[Clarkii]

poor guy :(

Depends if you got the clowns from a tank where it was just the two in and how old they were as it may be you picked up two pairs or it may of been where the two dominant were sorting out the pecking order and one lost. Could also of been many other reasons to.

[chiptoxic]

opps yea that was ment to be :( not :).

[chiptoxic]

when i got first two clowns it was from a tank that had all sorts of corals, shrimps, fish in. At the time think there must have been at least 8 clowns. So would not be that easy for the guy at the shop to see or catch pairs. But they seemed fine together. So it must have been down to the secound pair i added giving him a hard time. Although they were smaller and looked yonger. So think after everything i heard, read, and seen it was mainy stress caused by the other three because of the pecking order like you say.

Anyway my three remaining clowns are doing fine. Before this happend i was planning on getting some more fish next week. But after this ill wait another 2 - 3 weeks make sure everything stays ok first. Im also going to get myself a tank devider so that i can quickly separate suspect fish in the future. Until i have more time to move to my QT tank later on in the day.

Think im going to spend sunday researching all the diffrent signs of stress and diseases my fish and the fish i have planned can catch and make sure i know all the signs and how to tell them appart. I was abit to under prepared this time something thats not going to happen again if i can possibly help it.

[Johnt]

Hi, sad news about the clown:( I've had a quick look on your web site i would consider adding more live rock and more flow the additional power head you are getting will help. Hope you have no more loses.

John.

[isekiman]

Hi Chiptoxic. IMO you want to take out that ocean rock and tufa rock and get another 10 kg of good cured live rock and also get 2 more powerheads to cause more flow. Plus take out them plastic plants as they do no good in a marine tank, i know shops sell them but thats another story. You only should have 2 clowns in a tank your size, as they will pick on each other and end up killing each other until the dominant one and a mate is left. When you see a tank full of clowns at A lfs its because they are not there long enough to claim a terroritory, until you put them in your tank.HTH. Eric

[chiptoxic]

well the plastic plants were taken out over a week ago. They were only added so i had something to look at while tank cycled. Due to me just starting a new job i have not had much time to update my site.

I have just added another power head (interpet ph2, max flow rate 500l/hour (110 gal/hour)). Will probely get another PH4 if i feel i need more flow.

i do plan on getting more live rock, but i wont remove all my ocean rock as i quite like the look of it.

I was under the inpresion from what i have been reading that clowns could be kept in groups because of the size-based hierarchy, domaneit/largest one becomes the female next dominint the male and the rest non-breeders in order of size. With knowone really knowing why the non-breaders stay around as that dont provide any functions unless the female where to die and everyone shifts up the hierarchy. This is why i did plan on having 4 clowns and if they did pair off in the future into too groups and not play well together i have a 150 liter tank i could use for the secound pair.

Anyway as the 3 remaining clowns seem very happy together i wont risk introducing another.

[spamula]

Can you tell me the symptoms, has he got bad fins or tiny white spots and sores?