View Full Version : New 9ft Reef Project
Hi Everyone,
We are finally looking to upgrade our 4ft reef tank and 5ft fowlr tank into a 9ft x 2ft x 3ft heigh reef tank. Due to the size/quanity of the stock the tanks are overstocked and we are now want to give them a better home.
It is currently in the very early stages (only just approved by woman of the house :), "It will make a really good full-length wall feature").
We are mainly looking for advice on this before we go out and buy or do anything - our plan is below. If all is well we hope to start on the project late August or early September once we have returned from our holiday and have everything up and running and all stock transfered before Christmas.
Plan
-----
We have 3 tanks, 2 will be merged into one and the smaller corner tank will stay as a feature in another room. The two (dont shoot) tangs in the corner tank will be moved into the new 9footer. (The tangs are in the corner tank due to being attacked by larger tang in 5ft tank).
First question: will the following tangs get along in the same tank: 2 regal tangs (one very large and has attacked the other before, will they remember each other?), 1 yellow tang and 1 purple tang.
The tangs will be joined a Bluechin Trigger (juv), Maroon Clown, Foxface, Creme Angel, Bicolor Angel, Unknown reef friendly humbug? parrot fish, 6 green chromis and a small goby.
Can anyone see any probelms with the above fish? I assume that the new tank will be large enough full all of them to get on without seeing eachother too often. Am I correct or just wishful thinking?
Joining the fish will be a variety of soft and lps corals, variety of crabs and snails, brittle star and a boxer shrimp.
The live rock from both tanks will go into the new tank and more live rock will be purchased. We want to have an open structure so their is plenty of room for the fish so are thinking of a number of tall structures and overhangs with one slightly wider and shorter structure. Their is to be a fairly large space with no rock in one area.
More about the tank: hoping to have it built custom by windsor aquatics (still to be in touch) or another tank builder who I am in discussions with. It will have a large sump with large refugium and return area. Thinking of using two ocean runners 3,500 lph return pumps. Is this enough? (The tank will have dual overflows) and two aqua medic multi si protein skimmers (already in use) for skimming. (possibly upgrading at a later date)
The tank will have 2 x 4ft arcadia t5 (four bulbs in each) luminaires (already got one) for lighting, stronger lighting is not required as we do not wish to keep sps (and the main focus is on the fish)
Look forward to hearing peoples opinions and receiving guidance.
Hi,
Don't rely on anything I say because there are better people to give advise but here go's.
The only thing i can say about the return pumps, I think they only need to suite your sump and and equipment and not so much for tank flow, for intank water movement; that can be relied upon closed loops or power heads (streams) I think the big tank boys would go for closed loops on a tank that big, as long as the two 3500 give enough flow for the sump and equipment then they should be fine, I think its a better option than a single 6500 due the running cost would be a little less and if one fails you will still have some flow. I run a 6500 on my 4 foot and it almost popped my sump I had to T it off.
Although I done right like Fit Filtration then two 6500 can give mega intank flow too.
just my 1 pence
Cheers Paul
Johnymajors
24-06-06, 15:56
A single or3500 would give enough flow for a sump upto 300L - 400L
In a 9ft tank you would be far better off with a couple of closed loops. A good amount of flow even for a softie setup would be between 25,000 to 35,000 litres per hour, turnover.
3 sequence 10k's would work well spread across the tank
would one 3500 give the turnover for the skimmers chiller etc?
what return is the guy with the 10ft in his shed using?
things like this has to be right before the thing is built or you will get no end of problems, the amount of crap I have been fed by the guy at fantasea is unreal, he sold me a fish telling me it was a great fish very friendly (Panther grouper) turns out when it grown to only 3" it eat half of my tank. I could not believe he sold it to me when he knew exactly what stock I had in my tank. this is what happens when you in pulse buy when your other half fell in love with a fish. I spent 2K in 6 months with him, £500 was on crap that I didn't need or got eaten (see above). When my missis gave him the fish back his gave her a piece of rock the size of my fist for a swap?:eek: about £3 Worth
needless to say whalf and fit get my money now.
Sorry to go off topic but that guy makes me sick. dont help that im newish 1 year now.
Rogue trader.
MODS feel free to remove this post! I would understand!
I think I will stick with the 2 3500lph OR return pumps just in case one fails. With regards to current flow, I was thinking of making the return pump flow through pipe work with holes in underneath the live rock underneath the live rock in order to have plenty of flow through the rocks.
For further circulation I will be using my current seio super flow 6,000lph pump and then another 10,000lph seio super flow pump.
This will give a total turnover of 23,000lph which should be enough for a softie tank. If not then we may have to add another seio super flow pump. (We have a ton of maxi jets but ideally I don't really wan't to use them)
(The main reason of not going down the closed loop option is that we want to utilise the equipment we have and keep the cost of the project down to a minimum).
Question with regards to heating and cooling:
I'm hoping that the tank will not get hot enough to need a chiller or any cooling method other than a fan (due to the water volume) and the fact I will be using T5 lighting.
My next concern is heating, would I just need multiple heaters or something bigger? If so what?
Johnymajors
24-06-06, 17:48
I was thinking of making the return pump flow through pipe work with holes in underneath the live rock underneath the live rock in order to have plenty of flow through the rocks.
Good idea but remeber that if your return plumbing is going right to the bottom of your tank remember to have a good failsafe syphon break system set up (e.g 2 or 3 holes in the plumbing close to the water surface). If it fails and the plumbing is right to the bottom of the tank it will syphon the lot :eek:
For further circulation I will be using my current seio super flow 6,000lph pump and then another 10,000lph seio super flow pump.
This will give a total turnover of 23,000lph which should be enough for a softie tank. If not then we may have to add another seio super flow pump. (We have a ton of maxi jets but ideally I don't really wan't to use them)
(The main reason of not going down the closed loop option is that we want to utilise the equipment we have and keep the cost of the project down to a minimum).
I know the feeling im seting up a 4ft semicircle tank and im trying to do it with very little outlay. However also take into account that running cost can become higher than initial setup costs. If you keep having to add pumps to sort out flow problems, the constant running cost of multiple pumps may cost more in the long run, than setting up and running 1 or 2 high output pumps to run the lot.
just a quickie, i assume the parrot fish is in your FOWLR tank? im sure this is not a reef friendly fish as parrot fish eat stony coral polyps AFAIK
Hi Muzzy,
Yep, it is reef friendly, was in a reef tank and was fine. Not actually sure if it is a parrot fish. Attached is the best picture I can find at the moment, it is only the length of a yellow tang but is very fast and likes a large tank to dart around in.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/fish.gif
Do you/anyone think that the stocking list is ok stocking level wise?
simon garratt
25-06-06, 00:32
Hi sam.
Im being completely honest here when i say, 're-Think' what your proposing before you start.
Its admirable that you want the best for your fish. (many dont bother planning ahead where tangs are concerned so you have my respect.) but dont by any means think that you can afford to cut corners/make do with hobby type kit on a tank that size. At least not if you want a relatively easy life without pulling your hair out later.
The two OR 3500's will do fine as return pumps, but i would advise a rethink on the circulation. with big tanks its not so much the overal LPH rating of the pumps, its the grunt behind it, hence the preferance for proffesional pumps like sequence 10,000's on closed loops where large water volumes and depth are above the norm.
Personnally i would be looking at 3-4 sequence 10,000's on a 9ft tank, to keep water moving and waste in suspension long enough for it to make it out of the tank to the sump/skimmer, otherwise you'll be looking at perpetual major water changes to keep things in check, along the lines of 50-70 gall /month. Thats alot of salt, alot of water if your on a meter and alot of money.
Likewise your looking at something like either an aquamedic 5000 twin, or AP702/902 as an effective skimmer for that kind of water volume.
Finally youve got the lighting which at 3ft deep, id advise 250W as a minimum, and about 4 of them to run the length of the tank.
At a rough guess, I recon your looking the better part of 5.5 -6K to get it all together and running properly.
Personnaly, with a tank this size regardless of wether your keeping SPS, Softies or a full blown mixed reef, there should be cirtain minimum criteria you set yourself in stone before you start, and look at your finances to realistically assess what you can afford each month to run the system on. imo your looking at about £100 per month counting electric, salt and water.
Be honest with yourself, there are alot of people out there who have aspirations of large tanks only to fall down later becouse of the mopunting costs, or ongoing costs after the build. It really is shocking when you get into the big tank market.
If your not 100% sure you can accept this type of commitment, it may be better to consider other options for your larger stock, and switch to a more moderate size as an upgrade. say 7x2x2 for whats left.
Regards
Si.
He's always SO SENSIBLE! :)
Hi sam.
Im being completely honest here when i say, 're-Think' what your proposing before you start.
Its admirable that you want the best for your fish. (many dont bother planning ahead where tangs are concerned so you have my respect.) but dont by any means think that you can afford to cut corners/make do with hobby type kit on a tank that size. At least not if you want a relatively easy life without pulling your hair out later.
The two OR 3500's will do fine as return pumps, but i would advise a rethink on the circulation. with big tanks its not so much the overal LPH rating of the pumps, its the grunt behind it, hence the preferance for proffesional pumps like sequence 10,000's on closed loops where large water volumes and depth are above the norm.
Personnally i would be looking at 3-4 sequence 10,000's on a 9ft tank, to keep water moving and waste in suspension long enough for it to make it out of the tank to the sump/skimmer, otherwise you'll be looking at perpetual major water changes to keep things in check, along the lines of 50-70 gall /month. Thats alot of salt, alot of water if your on a meter and alot of money.
Likewise your looking at something like either an aquamedic 5000 twin, or AP702/902 as an effective skimmer for that kind of water volume.
Finally youve got the lighting which at 3ft deep, id advise 250W as a minimum, and about 4 of them to run the length of the tank.
At a rough guess, I recon your looking the better part of 5.5 -6K to get it all together and running properly.
Personnaly, with a tank this size regardless of wether your keeping SPS, Softies or a full blown mixed reef, there should be cirtain minimum criteria you set yourself in stone before you start, and look at your finances to realistically assess what you can afford each month to run the system on. imo your looking at about £100 per month counting electric, salt and water.
Be honest with yourself, there are alot of people out there who have aspirations of large tanks only to fall down later becouse of the mopunting costs, or ongoing costs after the build. It really is shocking when you get into the big tank market.
If your not 100% sure you can accept this type of commitment, it may be better to consider other options for your larger stock, and switch to a more moderate size as an upgrade. say 7x2x2 for whats left.
Regards
Si.
Hi Simon,
Thanks for your reply and thoughts.
As I said, it is in the very early stages at the moment - we are not even going to start buying a single thing until the end of August. So this post is like a think tank for us.
I always think there is always more than one way of doing things right, and I think it is possible to run a succesfull tank with "basic equipment". That's the way I like to do it.
A closed loops would mean more power output, more space needed, more risk of flood, more pipework. Where if I go for SEIO super flow pumps, it will give me the same amount of flow at a lot less wattage. The flow is also stream like so in my opinion much more better for circulation then jets of water. My local fish shop has a like sized tank and they use the returns and tunze's for flow.
With regards to lighting - I have estimated that I can have everything up and running for under 2.5k (due to the fact I have most equipment already). Sale of the old tanks remaining equipment will go to further investments such as rowa phos reactor, calcium reactor, more live rock and live stock (corals/inverts).
We are going for T5's to keep running costs down (again our local fish shop use them on there large setup as well). This is an upgradable option in the future but at the moment we have very little corals and the main focus is on the fish.
The running costs will not be a problem, we know all about this as we have 3 tanks at the moment all using ton's of power. We are combining two into one and the wattage will only be a little higher.
Water changes are to be expected, I already have a 4ft tank specificaly for mixing ro water and salt water. Currently perform 10% water changes on each of the tank every week.
We do want to go ahead with this and I have looked into the closed loops and halides but I don't feel I can justify it. What benefit's will they have? (I can list the negatives)
With regards to the skimmers, they are rated at 280gallons each, so would assume they would be fine. (I have seen another post on here which uses them on a large setup). Also the tank will use miracle mud and they suggest that you do not need protein skimmers at all - which I don't think is true but also don't feel that we need to overskim. Again a skimmer is something that can be upgraded at a later stage if needed.
Now the thing we are really looking for help with is the sump, I haven't got a clue how to design my own. Are their any pre-made designs that people can suggest? All I want is a large refugium large return and a skimmer area.
How much water is expected to be lost in this sized of system a day? (Need to determine the size of the ro water tank)
Keith at Windsor Aquatics got back to me with a quote, for a 3ft high tank we will need 15mm glass, so this will put the price up. For a 30" high tank we can use 12mm glass which is considerably cheaper so we have to think about which option we want to go for. I do like the idea of a tall tank, what does everyone else think?
Thanks for everyones comments so far, they have been very helpful.
sounds like you have made your mind up what you want and need already as far as equipment so i wont add any comments other than the one thing i will say, with a 36" high tank, you will need long arms to reach the bottom even when stood on steps, measure from your palm to your armpit and see if its going to be a problem, im 5ft 8" and my tanks 30" high and i really struggle to reach the bottom when stood on a step ladder.
Thanks for the comment re the height. We've decided to go for 30" because of what you suggested but also because we are using T5's and to keep the cost down.
I went for a 24" high tank and after seeing AntsReef tank which is 30", I definately wished I went for a higher tank.
Although at 36" I think you would really have problems reaching the bottom of the tank especially if you need to get to the bottom back from the front. However it will depend on your aquascaping whether you need to or not. You can always buy a mask and snorkle :D
I agree with previous posts about having several closed loops. I went for a Sequence 15000l in a 6'x2'x2' and quite honestly I think I should have gone for 2 x Sequence 10000l. So I think for that size tank you are looking for a minimum of 3 x Sequence 10000l (or similar)
Dave
EnglishReefer
25-06-06, 12:14
Sounds like a nice sized tank, I'm sure the fish will love the extra room and the stocking possabilities are very good. 30" tanks can look really effective, as mentioned 36" might be too deep to effectivly work on.
You'd be better off budgeting for the bigger skimmer/s and extra water circulation pumps (seio/stream whatever) now rather than later, you might get by with the mud set up and small skimmers for a little while but once the fish load goes up (both in size of fish and quantitys) you may run into trouble. The pumps you have mentioned so far for inital use on the bigger tank just wont cut it even as a softy setup.
Hope things go well.
Johnymajors
25-06-06, 12:29
Dont forget that a seio/tunze is not going to span the length and width of the tank with a deacent enough flow and will get some major dead spots if you have a lot of aquascaping . Even with 2 of them, with one at either end you are going to end up with an issue.
With closed loops you can provide flow from the front of the tank, aswell as from behind and underneath any rockwork down the whole length and from the sides, creating a much more dynamic waterflow which will hold detritus in suspension, alowing the overflows to do their intended job. This will also aid the filtation of any LR and your fish will have a more natural eviroment were the waterflow is concerned.
Dont forget that closed loops dont have to go through the glass of the tank, the plumbing can go up and over the rim of the tank (which i belive Mr Garratt done on a previous tank). And if you fit shut off valves on your plumbing then you can remove pumps without leakage.
Edit: Sorry bad Spelling
I'm very glad I decided to post my ideas on here, it has made me realize how large of project this is and what equipment I really need. However we are still going to go ahead with the, now slightly revised, project. (I'm still keeping the T5's and turbo flotor skimmers though unless I find a bargain!)
--------------------------------------------------------
Total Startup Cost: £2,700. (rounded up, equipment at retail price)
Tank
9 x 2 x 30" high 270 gallon display and 5 x 2 x 2 120 gallon sump/refugium as shown.
Diagram
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/9footer.gif
Equipment
- AquaMedic Turboflotor 1000 MULTI SL x 2
- Ocean Runner 3500 Return Pump x 2
- SEIO Super Flow Pump 1500
- Arcadia T5 Luminaire 4ft x 2
- Sequence 10000 Closed Loop x 3
- 2 x Power Compact T5 Lighting
- 2 x 250w Heaters & 2x Habistat Temperature Control
- Deltec Auto Top-up
- Auto-Topup Pump
- Habistat Cool Control & 2 Fans
Materials/Consumables
- Live Sand (For Refugium DSB) 4 x 9kilo
- Sand (For decoration only) 4 x 9kilo
- 32mm Aqua Medic Rigid PipeWork (£200's worth)
- Concrete, Bricks & Cement
- Steel RSJs
- Double Plywood Sheet
- Aqua Medic Salt 25kg Bucket x 3
- More Extension Leads & Timers
- MDF for Fake Front
- Egg Crate for LR
- Aquarium Silicon & Solvent Cement
Questions/Concerns
Any suggestions/comments on the stand? (It is taken from the advice of Keith at Windsor and also from one of the big builds on Ultimate Reef)
Anything I have missed of the list that I will be killing myself without?
Any comments on the heating / cooling? (Never heated / cooled something so large)
Any comments/thoughts on closed loops?
Any thoughts on the sump design?
Any thoughts on transferring live stock? My initial thought is to do both tanks all in one go once the new tank has cycled. But will this cause another cycle? Should I use the water from the old setups all will the rock be enough to seed the tank?
-----------------
Due to the cost of the project and the fact that it's my grandparents wedding anniversary party in september, we decided probably best to not start on the actual build until October.
However from this day on I am starting the hunt for equipment and will be keeping an eye on ebay. Also if anyone has anything up for sale that they think I might be interested in please let me know, it would be so helpful.
Thanks for all your comments so far.
Johnymajors
25-06-06, 20:12
I could be wrong .... but im sure there was a thread somewhere about the effectiveness of using 2 skimmers. Im sure that 1 will always work harder than the other. I would of gone for the TurboFlotor 5000 shorty, will still cover the same output of the 2 1000's and will probably work out around £100 cheaper.
Stand from block and rsj is always a good choice
i would of thought that while you are running t5's cooling wont be an issue. As for heating you could go for 1 large heater (e.g 3kw) or run 3 or 4 smaller heaters of a stat for a more failsafe option.
question regarding the top up .... have you remembered to have space for the R/O container (i cant see it in the diagram)
Have you also accounted for electrics cable, sockets, spurs, rcds etc.... as this can quickly add up. Not to mention connection to current supply (thinking forward to if you go down the halide route) as it may need individual connection to the consumer unit.
Also i wouldnt go down the dumping all the stock in one go. Would be far better on your system and a damm sight better on the stress of the fish to add them in over a few weeks to allow the system to adjust to the increase in bioload. It will also help if you add the shyer more freindly fish first to let them settle in before adding the bigger boys (less chance of loosing stock to stress)
Hi JohnyMajors,
Thanks for all your input!
"I could be wrong .... but im sure there was a thread somewhere about the effectiveness of using 2 skimmers. Im sure that 1 will always work harder than the other. I would of gone for the TurboFlotor 5000 shorty, will still cover the same output of the 2 1000's and will probably work out around £100 cheaper."
Yes I was looking at the TurboFlotor 5000 Shorty but I already have the two TurboFlotors, so purchasing a brand new skimmer will add anything from £400 - £800 on to the cost of the project. Hence me choosing to stay with the Turboflotors 1000 for now.
"i would of thought that while you are running t5's cooling wont be an issue. As for heating you could go for 1 large heater (e.g 3kw) or run 3 or 4 smaller heaters of a stat for a more failsafe option."
Was thinking of controlling 2 250watt heaters with each having its own Habistat temperature control as a precuation. Do you think two will be enough or would more be necessary?
"question regarding the top up .... have you remembered to have space for the R/O container (i cant see it in the diagram)"
Yep it's not in the stand, it's going to be in an outside sheltered area (on the other side of the wall that the tank is against). Will be using the 4ft tank.
"Have you also accounted for electrics cable, sockets, spurs, rcds etc.... as this can quickly add up. Not to mention connection to current supply (thinking forward to if you go down the halide route) as it may need individual connection to the consumer unit."
Well we are going to be using extension leads in the side sections as shown in the diagram. These will come from 3 wall sockets which I believe come off two spurs. Each rated at 13amps each. I've added all the equipment up and it doesn't come above 5amps in total, but the nevertheless. Ive also added all the plugs up and was quite surprised :P We will not be going down the metal halide route in the future, this would be too expensive. I'm not sure what you mean by RCD's, what will need them?
"Also i wouldnt go down the dumping all the stock in one go. Would be far better on your system and a damm sight better on the stress of the fish to add them in over a few weeks to allow the system to adjust to the increase in bioload. It will also help if you add the shyer more freindly fish first to let them settle in before adding the bigger boys (less chance of loosing stock to stress)"
Cool that has confirmed my thoughts. I think I will put in the stock from my 4ft tank first as that will only be 4 fish and will also mean I can get one of the protein skimmers up and running and the lights, macro algae and corals moved. A week after that I will transfer some of the smaller/timid stock from the 5ft tank and then a week after the remaining stock will be moved over along with the other protein skimmer.
Johnymajors
25-06-06, 22:29
Sorry chief didnt read properly, didnt realise you allready had the skimmers :o
Most heaters wattage wise would be suited for a water volume equivelent to their output e.g 250watt for 250 litres of water depending on its effiency. It takes 1.16 watts to heat 1 litre of water by 1 degrees in 1 hour so you should be looking at 3 or 4 of those heaters to keep the temp nice and stable, halides would help heat the water while their on, t5s wont have much impact.
RCD's (residual current device) are a good idea fitted to the main supplies, to protect you from electrical shock from any compnents in your tank, due to the nature of working with water. I know most houses are fitted with consumer units containing these but there not foolproof, but ive personaly been kicked on a couple of occasions (other peoples tanks) and it never tripped the main box. Just another saftey point and at £25 its worth it.
Well we are going to be using extension leads in the side sections as shown in the diagram. These will come from 3 wall sockets which I believe come off two spurs. Each rated at 13amps each
Have you included the draw of electricity from the rest of the sockets connected to the spur running from the consumer unit (assuming that there is any) We only had 1 mains spur on 1mm twin and earth throughout the flat running 8 double sockets and by the time we added the fridge, tv, cable, pc's, clocks etc.... it only left 2 amps worth of rating without overloading the cable, so we had another spur added which now runs the main tank, the new tank and tv.
If I am reading your diagram correctly, you are having 7 bottom nozzles plus a couple of spray bars (on top) on one of the sequence. I don't think you will get adequate flow through the nozzles with this amount of outlets.
Even with 7 nozzles (without the spraybar) = 10000/7 = 1428 lph per nozzle. Add the spraybars and you won't have a lot!
And that's if you can balance the flow through each nozzle. as water will always take the easiest course. I did this by using reducers i.e. 25/12mm, 25/16mm, 25/20mm etc in the end of the nozzles and then feeling the output of the nozzle and comparing it to the others. Smallest at the furtherest point and larger nearest the pump.
An alternative approach (I have read, but haven't tried) is to create a loop and then put the nozzles on that loop.
Also I think your budget of £200 for plumbing is a bit light for this size tank.
Dave
simon garratt
26-06-06, 08:57
If Im reading right, your looking at 3 sequence 10,000's. in which case your looking at about £400+ for all the plumbing for these pumps and the overflow pipework etc. (this includes double shut offs etc for the pumps).
You could reduce this (and the amount of work involved) by drilling strait through the base etc and using bulkhead fittings. This will also give you better flow due to reduced friction losses.
Although you are concerned about the risks of leaks, this is a very rare occurance if the bulkheads are fitted correctly in the first place and the tank has a bouble base.
regards
Si.
If Im reading right, your looking at 3 sequence 10,000's. in which case your looking at about £400+ for all the plumbing for these pumps and the overflow pipework etc. (this includes double shut offs etc for the pumps).
You could reduce this (and the amount of work involved) by drilling strait through the base etc and using bulkhead fittings. This will also give you better flow due to reduced friction losses.
Although you are concerned about the risks of leaks, this is a very rare occurance if the bulkheads are fitted correctly in the first place and the tank has a bouble base.
regards
Si.
couldnt he use a large deltec for a return instead of 3 sequence pumps
Sounds like I could do with some more help on the closed loops. Does anyone have any diagrams/examples of closed loops in a similar setup.
I don't want to drill through the base and am not too concerned about the actually cost of the plumbing, once it's in, it's in.
How come I will need 2 shut off valves on the closed loops?
What's the best way to get the water to the closed loops? From the weirs?
greengrass
26-06-06, 18:50
sam have a look on si's site, reef-eden.com...its a mindfield of information.
hth, les :)
Johnymajors
26-06-06, 19:05
Si's site is down for revamping at the mo :(
You will need a shut of valve on either side of the pump so you can cut the flow when you remove the pump if needed (problems or maintenance) if you dont and you only shut off one side then the other pipe will just syphon all the water from your tank. even if you had a syphon break it will still dump the contents of the pipe over your floor and any water above the syphon break point which can be a lot of water.
You can get the water from the weirs but most people will take the water from the main tank with a filter grid around them
An example can be seen here http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html if you take the SCWD out it will be basicly the same as your after
EnglishReefer
26-06-06, 19:16
I must admit I'm not a fan of drilling the base of the tank without having a wier around the hole but it's one the 'in things' at the moment ;) , I'm of the 'murphys law' school of marine keeping :o and damaged bulkhead seals or even pump seal failure doesnt appeal to me when theres a few hundred gallons of water wanting to find a new home.
If you go with over the tank pipework for the loops then you could use 1 supersized intake pipe (say 70mm or maybe bigger, you would have to find out pipe flow rates) and make a manifold to divide the water flow to the 3 pump inlets.
You will need a valve on the inlet and outlet of each pump so you can isolate them for service etc.
Dont forget to have anti syphon holes in any pipework that goes deep into the tank to reduce the risk of a flood if something does leak in a big way, dont rely on one way valves to stop this...
wayne in norway
30-06-06, 14:42
Don't wholly discount the use of MH at some point in the future if not know. Painful experience tells me batteries of fluorescents work out no cheaper, and more hassle (many cables, many bulbs to change)
I must admit I'm not a fan of drilling the base of the tank without having a wier around the hole but it's one the 'in things' at the moment ;) , I'm of the 'murphys law' school of marine keeping :o and damaged bulkhead seals or even pump seal failure doesnt appeal to me when theres a few hundred gallons of water wanting to find a new home.
If you go with over the tank pipework for the loops then you could use 1 supersized intake pipe (say 70mm or maybe bigger, you would have to find out pipe flow rates) and make a manifold to divide the water flow to the 3 pump inlets.
You will need a valve on the inlet and outlet of each pump so you can isolate them for service etc.
Dont forget to have anti syphon holes in any pipework that goes deep into the tank to reduce the risk of a flood if something does leak in a big way, dont rely on one way valves to stop this...
and doesent the water find its new home quickly:eek:
I have a 3x250 halide for sale, nearly new bulbs:D
simon garratt
30-06-06, 17:33
The fatal mistake that many make is to use the washers that come with the bulkhead fittings. These arnt desighned for long term imersion in salt water and gradually degrade leading to leaks. The proper way of fitting bulkheads is to liberally apply silicone to both the flange, lock nut face, and thread. then tighten up only as tight as you can by hand. They should never leak as long as you dont go pulling and tugging on the attatched pipework in the future.
Likewise with ball valves. If your gonna use them, only have them fully open. If you have them partially closed they gradually knacker the seals each time you turn them and start leaking. Use them as shut offs (for pump removal only), not flow control valves if you can avoid it.
regards
Si.
The fatal mistake that many make is to use the washers that come with the bulkhead fittings. These arnt desighned for long term imersion in salt water and gradually degrade leading to leaks. The proper way of fitting bulkheads is to liberally apply silicone to both the flange, lock nut face, and thread. then tighten up only as tight as you can by hand. They should never leak as long as you dont go pulling and tugging on the attatched pipework in the future.
Likewise with ball valves. If your gonna use them, only have them fully open. If you have them partially closed they gradually knacker the seals each time you turn them and start leaking. Use them as shut offs (for pump removal only), not flow control valves if you can avoid it.
regards
Si.
Totally agree with Simon's remarks on the neoprene washers that come with most bulkhead fittings; throw them away and follow Si's instructions.
Thanks for all your thoughts and comments and help so far, you are all great. I'm gonna try and answer some questions and ask some questions :)
Have you included the draw of electricity from the rest of the sockets connected to the spur running from the consumer unit (assuming that there is any) We only had 1 mains spur on 1mm twin and earth throughout the flat running 8 double sockets and by the time we added the fridge, tv, cable, pc's, clocks etc.... it only left 2 amps worth of rating without overloading the cable, so we had another spur added which now runs the main tank, the new tank and tv.
The house is fairly large so has multiple spurs. The tanks spur would be on the spur that supplies the lounge, hall way and kitchen. The good news is that the oven has its on spur and so does the microwave (by itself). This only leaves the TV, Dishwasher and Fridge on the spur that is shared with the tank. In theory though we could use that spur and the microwave one as well as it's not far from the tank. The upstairs is on its own spur and the extension has it's own consumer unit altogether (again we could run some stuff of that). Both are fitted with good RCD's. We had to re-wire the entire house when we got it so everything is up2date and safe.
---
I'm working on a proper pipe diagram and calculating exactly what bit's of pipe I need for everything.
---
Dont forget to have anti syphon holes in any pipework that goes deep into the tank to reduce the risk of a flood if something does leak in a big way, dont rely on one way valves to stop this...
Have learnt this from my other tank......... :o
---
Don't wholly discount the use of MH at some point in the future if not know. Painful experience tells me batteries of fluorescents work out no cheaper, and more hassle (many cables, many bulbs to change)
I might still go for metal halides yet, I haven't ruled them out. I was thinking of one 250w halide above each two main rock sections (with the corals on) and a 150w halide in the middle, which is basically open water for the fish.
What does everyone think of that plan?
---
The fatal mistake that many make is to use the washers that come with the bulkhead fittings. These arnt desighned for long term imersion in salt water and gradually degrade leading to leaks. The proper way of fitting bulkheads is to liberally apply silicone to both the flange, lock nut face, and thread. then tighten up only as tight as you can by hand. They should never leak as long as you dont go pulling and tugging on the attatched pipework in the future
I'm more concerned with having to go for a 15mm base or a double base as it will end up costing more money. Also I imagine getting them cut will cost money as well. I think I will stick with the original plan. But thanks for the tip, I can use that idea on the connectors for the weirs.
"Likewise with ball valves. If your gonna use them, only have them fully open. If you have them partially closed they gradually knacker the seals each time you turn them and start leaking. Use them as shut offs (for pump removal only), not flow control valves if you can avoid it."
I only plan to have 7 ballvalves, 6 for the closed loop and one on a spur from the weir for easy water changes. (hanging over the sump in case of leakage)
---
Items purchased so far: A ton of egg crate :P and 3 x 300w heaters. More coming soon (just got pay packet). Looking for good deals on sequence pumps and lighting....
Quick update on purchases:
-------------------------------
Have just purchased:
250w Aquabay c/w Glass Shield x 4
250w ReefLux Single Ended 10,000k E40 Metal Halide Lamp x 4
Aquabay Hanging Kit x 4
Light Switching Timer Contactor (4 Gang)
24hr Timer
I have been persuaded to buy metal halides. I have decided to skip the skimping and go all out. I will be looking to buy a new protein skimmer as well. This is on my reasoning that what is the point in having a 9ft tank with second rate equipment. In the future I might even be able to look at SPS.
(frm Marine-Lighting.co.uk, sponsor)
**My Wallet doesn't like me**
Please find attached a new closed loop diagram.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/closeloops.gif
A couple of questions:
Have I got the correct diameter of pipe?
What's the best way of getting water to the closed loop pumps?
Where do you think would be the best place to have the outlets for the return pumps (I was thinking centre top with 4 outlets (2 per return) for surface movement?)
Where do you think the best place would be to stick the seio? Was thinking on the right hand side as the rock structure is more open so not really possible to have the closed loop going through it as much as the other side.
Thanks for looking :)
Johnymajors
03-07-06, 12:42
Where do you think would be the best place to have the outlets for the return pumps (I was thinking centre top with 4 outlets (2 per return) for surface movement?)
Would be better to stay near the surface with the sump returns, to reduce the amount of backflow from the tank when the return pumps are off (syphon break).
Where do you think the best place would be to stick the seio? Was thinking on the right hand side as the rock structure is more open so not really possible to have the closed loop going through it as much as the other side.
With a tank of this size i would have though that along the line you may get a nem or some thing of that nature, and some inquisitve fish. Having the seio in the tank is only going to increase the chances of something getting chewed up should they venture too close. I would say either stick with just the closed loops or build an enclosure for the seio/streams to sit behind, (i belive Craigg has done this, have a look at his tank for ideas)
What's the best way of getting water to the closed loop pumps?
You will need to have an intake within the tank for all 3 pumps, that could be hidden behind an enclosure. Also with your sequence return pipe diagram, i would say that if you plumbed it in that manner you may later regret doing so, due to the amount of pipework you would have to hide or to have on show. I've quickly chucked together another way, which would be more tidy .....
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Johny%20majors/TankPlumb.jpg
If you was to have 1 CL running at the rear, 1 running the centre parts and 1 running the front, all the pipework can come down 1 corner and along the bottom of the tank. Then you could have the 3 intakes at the other end, and if you was to hide them behind some blue acrylic enclosures, along with the substrate it would all look very tidy.
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Johny%20majors/TankNBits.jpg
The only thing left to do would be to add a central weir with the returns coming in with 2 outlets either side of that as you mentioned earlier :D .
Your a superstar! Thanks for looking at this for me :D
Looking at my diagram now, it looks like it was drawn by a maniac! What software did you use for yours?
I noticed you didn't put any outlets at the sides? Just wondered if their was a reason for this?
With regards to the blue acrylic, would I have wholes in to let the water flow in and out? (Obviously the inlets would need to have water flowing. Could the other one just be "empty")
Also is the pipe work for sequences 32mm? If it is, I don't think it will stand out too much. (What I don't want is great big boxes sticking out into the tank and taking up volume and space).
I must say I'm really look forward to getting started on the tank now. Your diagrams have brought it too life. Thanks again.
Looking at your pipework, looks like you are using 32mm pipe work with Sequence 10000?
My experience with the Sequence (10000) is that 32mm intake/outlet is not good for the pump. I set up one of my 6 Sequence pumps sometime ago with 50mm intake and 32mm outlet and the flowrate was very poor as the pump does not like too great a back pressure.
From the above test - I have set up the system with 50mm all the way through and just reduced them when they get into the tank - this way there is as little a back pressure as possible. Indeed, I have doubled up on the outlets by connecting 2x32mm outlets per pump on 3 of the pumps as the holes were drilled for 32mm pipe connectors. I have since added 3x50mm tanks connectors for intake./outlet.
Hope this helps. I am sure that there will be other comments to help.
Johnymajors
03-07-06, 21:02
Looking at my diagram now, it looks like it was drawn by a maniac! What software did you use for yours?
Tis called Sketchup. Comes in very handy for DIY work plus i also use it for small project work on occasions when the work comes up :D .
I noticed you didn't put any outlets at the sides? Just wondered if their was a reason for this?
Yep ...... i only spent 10 minuites throwing it together. Was only a very rough diagram to give you an idea. Sketchup is very good for seeing and rectifiying potential problems, such as plumbing problems / solutions
With regards to the blue acrylic, would I have wholes in to let the water flow in and out? (Obviously the inlets would need to have water flowing. Could the other one just be "empty")
You can fit filter grills into the boxes to allow water flow and if you wanted to you could also cut extra holes to allow for seio / tunze outlets to stick out of.
Also is the pipe work for sequences 32mm? If it is, I don't think it will stand out too much. (What I don't want is great big boxes sticking out into the tank and taking up volume and space).
Ive worked on them but never taken notice of the pipe size (never had to plumb one in yet). But from a rough guess i would of said that the ones ive worked on have been on 40mm pipe on both sides of the pump. Best to check for sure tho
And as for the boxes, even if you had 3 .... 2 at either end and 1 in the middle for an overflow, in a 9ft tank you aint gonna notice it especialy if the tank back is painted in a very similar shade of blue as the boxes. After all, even if you have them to cover the pipes alone, the boxes only need to be about 15cm wide and 8 cm in depth to conceal 3 40mm pipes.
But do consider, as i mentioned earlier, you can make them to accomodate seio/and tunze pumps, any probes you may want or need, and also to put heaters into (will stop any chances of nems or fish getting burnt, sucked up, chopped into fish food etc..) the boxes may be bigger and stick into the tank but it would look a damn sight tidier that having all the formentioned gear in your tank on display.Having pipework exposed can cause problems. Ive seen exposed pipes trap fish that have been spooked or chased in their direction.
After all if your spending the money to build a 9footer, i would want it looking as natural as i could get it with as little amount of equipment and plumbing on view as possible. But then the choice is entierly yours :D
Why not just buy 2 Tunze 6200. Will give more flow than the 3 sequance 10000 pumps and no need for any extra plumbing/weirs which all add to the costs.
Sorry I am new to this so have very little advice, however i would like an invite to your house when it is complete.
simon garratt
03-07-06, 23:07
Ill beg to differ there danny.:)
. Even though the streams do kick out some water, (but without the grunt of the Sequence) there are serious drawbacks with these pumps. hence the reason why more and more large tank keepers (especially SPS) have switched to high output (large bore) closed loops to shift water round the tank rather than suffering the limiting drawbacks of streams. Especially on larger systems such as this. dont be missled by LPH figures, they arnt the be all and end all of circulation.
add to this the costs of a decent stream set up for a tank this size and you'll find that even if slightly more expensive, the closed loops will win hands down every time ime.
regards
Si.
SPS Hoover
03-07-06, 23:57
2 Tunze 6200
I hate streams:mad: :eek: The worse piece of kit invented for the reef tank IMO about on par with prism skimmer
Harsh! Getting streams requires a degree in Burglary too.
Hi Si
to give me a better understanding. What would you say a sequence 10000 is like compared to a stream (i.e. which model)?
I was under the impression a 6200 gives 20,000lph compared to the 10,000lph of the sequence.
I understand you would get dead spots in a 9ft tank with the streams compared to closed loops. But would 3 sequence give enough flow?
Thanks Danny
simon garratt
04-07-06, 10:15
Hi Danny.
Tunze actually play a bit of a cruel trick on the unsuspecting public becouse the ratings quoted arnt the actual output of the impellor opening, they are a combination of total output through the front face of the pump and a good portion of side draw as surrounding water is dragged /sucked into the vortex created by the twisting motion of the impellor. (pretty imaterial in the big scheme of things though as it obviously works even if the figures are slightly sqewed.)
The main differences are in how water is expelled. The recommended outlet for a sequence 10,000 is 40mm (about on the same par as a stream) but the stream gives off a long vortex trail in the centre of its output, like a boat propellor (this is a violently twisting body of water at the core of the outflow path stretching several feet away from the pump.), The sequence being an enclosed impellor desighn simply puts out a solid block of water with no twist which becouse of the wide bore desperses more evenly over a wider distance. But its the punch of a big motor behind it that carries it. from examples ive seen, there is no less distance of flow involved with a sequnce using big bore piping than a stream. In Simon clarks tank, the 45deg outlets at the bottom front are still more than capable of churning the water over at the back surface some 4+ft away in a diagonal line, and the 15,000's can be felt at the other end of the tank with is 8ft away. The big difference is the lack of 'agressive' turbulance and twist present. You can place corals fairly close to these outlets without fear of damaging the tissue, and SPS will happily grow within reasonable proximity to these outlets without suffering any damage unless they are directly infront of an outlet at less than a ft away.
In the case of streams, ive seen damage to corals at distances far exeeding this (sometimes as much as 4 ft away) which is clearly brought about by agressive 'twisting' circulation. Most SPS keepers will admit that despite your best efforts, as corals grow to fill the tank it becomes increasingly hard to find areas where you can direct the stream without it causing damage, eventually you end up with them pointed at the glass etc in an effort to minimise damage and lose the benefit of all that flow. Ultimately you end up with reduced flow through rockwork etc and the inevitable clogging up of the system long term.
As for dispersed flow, one of the biggest advantages of big pump closed loops, is that you can draw large volumes of water from underneith rockwork etc through heavy duty low maintanance strainers to feed the pumps and then pump it back through as many outlets as you wish to create varying directional flows across the entire set-up. Add a few taps and 45deg outlet elbows into the bargain and you can adjust flow and direction indefinately to account for growth etc whilst all the time keeping large volumes flowing in and out of your rockwork.
Hope this explains a little better.
regards
Si.
Tunze actually play a bit of a cruel trick on the unsuspecting public becouse the ratings quoted arnt the actual output of the impellor opening, they are a combination of total output through the front face of the pump and a good portion of side draw as surrounding water is dragged /sucked into the vortex created by the twisting motion of the impellor. (pretty imaterial in the big scheme of things though as it obviously works even if the figures are slightly sqewed.)
The main differences are in how water is expelled. The recommended outlet for a sequence 10,000 is 40mm (about on the same par as a stream) but the stream gives off a long vortex trail in the centre of its output, like a boat propellor (this is a violently twisting body of water at the core of the outflow path stretching several feet away from the pump.), The sequence being an enclosed impellor desighn simply puts out a solid block of water with no twist which becouse of the wide bore desperses more evenly over a wider distance. But its the punch of a big motor behind it that carries it. from examples ive seen, there is no less distance of flow involved with a sequnce using big bore piping than a stream. In Simon clarks tank, the 45deg outlets at the bottom front are still more than capable of churning the water over at the back surface some 4+ft away in a diagonal line, and the 15,000's can be felt at the other end of the tank with is 8ft away. The big difference is the lack of 'agressive' turbulance and twist present. You can place corals fairly close to these outlets without fear of damaging the tissue, and SPS will happily grow within reasonable proximity to these outlets without suffering any damage unless they are directly infront of an outlet at less than a ft away.
In the case of streams, ive seen damage to corals at distances far exeeding this (sometimes as much as 4 ft away) which is clearly brought about by agressive 'twisting' circulation. Most SPS keepers will admit that despite your best efforts, as corals grow to fill the tank it becomes increasingly hard to find areas where you can direct the stream without it causing damage, eventually you end up with them pointed at the glass etc in an effort to minimise damage and lose the benefit of all that flow. Ultimately you end up with reduced flow through rockwork etc and the inevitable clogging up of the system long term.
As for dispersed flow, one of the biggest advantages of big pump closed loops, is that you can draw large volumes of water from underneith rockwork etc through heavy duty low maintanance strainers to feed the pumps and then pump it back through as many outlets as you wish to create varying directional flows across the entire set-up. Add a few taps and 45deg outlet elbows into the bargain and you can adjust flow and direction indefinately to account for growth etc whilst all the time keeping large volumes flowing in and out of your rockwork.
OR
I hate streams:mad: :eek: The worse piece of kit invented for the reef tank IMO
That's what we like about you MR C. A man of few words....:D
Great explanation Si. That makes a lot of sense.
I have always had to bounce the stream off the glass to avoid damage to corals and now I understand why. After the flow has been off the glass it is safe, but very dissipated by the time it reaches the rock and corals.
It is still a fantastic 'add-on' though for tanks with limited existing flow, despite Simon's hint that he doesn't like them.
Tony
Thanks Si.
Much appreciated. :)
Currently I have 2 6200's in a 5.5x3x2, if I was to change to closed loops. What would you recommend for flow?
Danny
simon garratt
04-07-06, 14:44
Hi Danny.
Despite the comments above, youve shelled out a fair sum on your pumps so im not going to say, they are the spawn of satan and need changing immediately (unlike Mr Clark ;) ).. for all intence and purposes they are a fantastic idea that needs a little more in desighn and cross referancing to natural flow patterns to elimate the twisting effect and reduce the overall velocity of water exiting them. (possibly a wider body outlet with bigger proppelor with a less agressive cut and some flow straitening vents,) bit like a car air conditionaing vent.
Plus it depends on what you want to keep. If it were LPS/Softies, id say no more than 2 10,000's through 6 outlets at 40mm each, If it were for SPS id go three or more on 40mm twin outlets to get a more intense push of water.
Suffice to say, its one of those cases where Id allways advise you to look at a big pump closed loop system in the flesh to see what i mean before commiting. Although the plumbing side can seem a little daunting at first and there may be space issues in siting these pumps. I just feel that if your going to try to simulate the best environment, then why cut corners. Id rather use what many would consider a first step into the 'pro kit' market to set a reef up, than make do with the often (limited) best of what the 'hobby' market has to offer at the same or similar price.
Its a bit like looking at skimmers, you can either spend £250 on an APF600, or you can spend the same on a prizm pro. same price, very different approaches and very different results becouse of the customer goals the product is aimed at...
regards
Si.:)
Sorry to jump in on this thread, a closed loop system, does this need to be plumbed into the tank via drilled holes or can the supply pipes be made to go up and over the back of the tank, then the flow pipes be created in the same way. its probably not the nicest way, but I assume it would be quicker with a full tank?
SPS Hoover
04-07-06, 16:45
Sorry to jump in on this thread, a closed loop system, does this need to be plumbed into the tank via drilled holes or can the supply pipes be made to go up and over the back of the tank, then the flow pipes be created in the same way. its probably not the nicest way, but I assume it would be quicker with a full tank?
Yes you can not easy to hide pipe work but will work equally as well
That's what we like about you MR C. A man of few words....
Mr G does like to waffle on a bit. Why say something in Mr G's case 400 words when it can be said the same in two
Hi Guys,
The metal halide lighting from www.marine-lighting.co.uk has arrived. Very quick, everything is here and all looks brilliant.
I have now packed them away to avoid damage until we come to wire them up. :)
I've decided I don't want anything electrical actually in the display, so that means I will be selling my seio pump with the rest of the kit. This leaves me with 3 Sequence 10000 (which I still don't know where the place to get them from) and the two OR 3500 return pumps for circulation.
I'm not sure whether the 3 Sequences will be enough and I am considering going for another Sequence 10000, making 4 closed loops in total as in the future I may look into getting SPS (seems as I seem to be buying all the kit anyway :P)
Well my wallet is empty for the rest of the month so I will be mainly be drawing up diagrams and planning / working things out, having said that I'm sure my credit card will kick in if I see anything of interest :P
Thanks for all the comments and replies so far, this project is really fun and once it's done you will all have to come and see it. £100 entrance fee (well my wallet needs to recover some how :P)
simon garratt
04-07-06, 23:18
Mr G does like to waffle on a bit. Why say something in Mr G's case 400 words when it can be said the same in two
Becouse sometimes these nice people would like an explanation rather than take a two line quote as gospel Mr C.
regards
Si.
SPS Hoover
04-07-06, 23:20
spawn of satan
There you go three words
I'm not sure whether the 3 Sequences will be enough and I am considering going for another Sequence 10000,
http://www.tunze.com/
Master electronic 1073.160
Pumping capacity: 16,000 l/h
Energy consumption: 235 W
Pumping head: 6.00 m
Voltage / frequency: 230V/50Hz
about £290
Another option to consider for closed loops ;)
Johnymajors
05-07-06, 12:27
http://www.tunze.com/
Master electronic 1073.160
Pumping capacity: 16,000 l/h
Energy consumption: 235 W
Pumping head: 6.00 m
Voltage / frequency: 230V/50Hz
about £290
Another option to consider for closed loops ;)
At 235w for only 16,000 :eek: lph i wouldnt
3 x sequence 10,000 (@ 95w) comes to 285w for 30,000lph but to get 30,000 from the tunze would cost you 470w per hour, might cost more to buy and set up, but the sequences work out cheaper on the running cost.
Depends what pumping head you need. 6m for the Tunze and 2.4m for the Sequence 10000, hence the power difference.
For a similar pumping head the Sequence 11000 consumes 185w.
At 235w for only 16,000 :eek: lph i wouldnt
3 x sequence 10,000 (@ 95w) comes to 285w for 30,000lph but to get 30,000 from the tunze would cost you 470w per hour, might cost more to buy and set up, but the sequences work out cheaper on the running cost.
Thats why I use a pair of sequence 10,000
Johnymajors
05-07-06, 18:59
Depends what pumping head you need. 6m for the Tunze and 2.4m for the Sequence 10000, hence the power difference.
For a similar pumping head the Sequence 11000 consumes 185w.
Very true ...... ill keep that in mind when i need to pump water up 2 storys :D
Just got a great deal on an Aqua Medic Turboflotor 5000 shorty compact 2 (rated up to 500gallons) - ok no more spending now... ;)
My skimmer arrived is really great, but alas has been packed back up to be in storage until it is needed :( It's getting quite depressing buying all these things but having them just sitting their, doing nothing. Oh well - they will serve their purpose in the end...I hope.
Well I just brought a new Deltec reactor for rowaphos. I was debating about getting one but thought it would be better safe than sorry and quite a lot of people seem to use them, especially on larger systems.
Some thoughts/questions:
Calcium: What would be the better and most cost effective way of achieving this and when will I need it? At the moment I have very few corals and have never needed to boost calcium levels (when tested they are always higher than the recommended level). However when I buy more corals and start keep SPS it will be necessary. So kalk stirrer or calcium reactor? Thoughts and opinions. Calcium reactors look less fidley but also expensive.
Nitrate: I have always suffered with high nitrate levels. I think this is partly due to past mistakes but also due to the fact that the systems are generally overstocked. With the new system everything is more than cable of handling the fish load I currently have and I won't be transferring any of the water or sand from the old tanks (the new system will go through it's own cycle). I will however be moving all of the LR from the other systems. What's the best way of cleaning this LR to make sure it brings with it very little nitrate. I was thinking about putting it in a tank for a week or two with high flow and skimming. (I will be buying some new LR to reseed the existing old LR).
Update on Build
------------------
I now have all the equipment bar the circulation (need return pumps and sequences), this adds up to quite a large amount of money so I still have a couple of month's until the stand and tank is actually ready to be built.
I have just built four rock structures made from egg crate and secured with cable ties. One of the structures is really tall and the rock reaches the top of the tank.
On one end their will be like a gently hill or slope which will be where the main corals are. This then fades off into a approx 3ft long space which has no rock and just for the fish and for corals to grow out into.
On the other end their are two towers, one shorter and fat and one tool and fin. Their will be several thin bridges (reef bones?) in between these two towers. One of the towers goes all the way to the top of the tank.
I will try and post a pic of the structures at the weekend so you get a better idea of what I'm babbling on about.
Thanks for reading and look forward to hearing your tips and comments :D
I have been playing with Google Sketchup and have come up with the following initial diagrams. Hopefully from these you will have a rough idea of how the tank will look.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/living.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/9fttank.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/side_view.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/reffkeepsump.jpg
Let me know what you think.
dan-the-man
22-07-06, 00:05
Looks cracking!!!
Although, in real life, I've found its a better idea to open doors instead of walking through them ;) :D
What halides do you plan on running? Just thinking four is a lot, possibly 3 lumenarcs could do the job?
LOL, they are 4 x Lowbay 250watt metal halides from Marine-Lighting (already purchased)
i think 4 will be right, love the sketches by the way
dan-the-man
22-07-06, 12:04
Sounds good! Excellent planning :D
I've been having a lovely afternoon plumbing away on SketchUp :mad:
If you have given up working out what the hell is going on the diagram below (like me). Let me try to explain to you.
Their will be 3 closed loops, each powered by Sequence 10000's.
The inlet and outlet pipes on the Sequence 10000's will be 50mm.
This huge pipes run on the side of the tank (hidden with fake wall) as they will not fit behind the tank. They enter the tank in compartments specifically made to hide the pipes. The compartments serve to purposes, a chamber for supplying the pumps with water (via the holes with guards) and a tidy way of hiding the big pipe work. (Thanks for the idea JohnnyMajors)
Once inside the the chamber the outlet pipe reduces to 32mm pipe so there is still room for fish in the tank! (Ignore diameter of pipework on diagram)
On the other side (not shown in diagram) the 50mm inlet and outlets supply two sequence 10000 splitting outside the tank to save space.
The weir pipes also come out the side and the return pipes will also go up the side.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/pipeds.jpg
The sump is now completed virtually and everything looks nice and tidy.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/9ft_sump_done.jpg
Look forward to hearing comments and suggestions re sump and pipework. Am i doing this right?
Nice pictures. But will it not be a bit hard to hide the 50mm pipework, could you not reduce them to 32mm once they enter the tank?
"once inside the the chamber the outlet pipe reduces to 32mm pipe so there is still room for fish in the tank! (Ignore diameter of pipework on diagram)"
cheers :)
The rowaphos reactor arrived today, just in time. I'm off on holiday now so now more spending until next month. Then after that their is only a month before the actual tank build starts. Best get saving those pennies....
After much thought I have re-designed the overflows and pipe work to have minimal pipe work inside the tank and improved flow.
The new design has smaller boxed like corner overflow weirs, which will create an open cave like area for fishes behind the rock work instead of having dead space.
The returns create surface aggitation and also further flow in the middle of the tank.
The new closed loop designs has a minimal amount of pipe in the tank by using to a drilled 32mm hole on either side of the tank and 3 x 50ml drilled holes in the base for the inlets.
The new system has improved flow from the front on the left hand side where the majority of corals and rock will be. It also includes a bank of outlets running the whole of the back which create flow behind and through the rock work on the length of the tank. Three front outlets on the right hand side create genterler frontal flow for the other area of rock work and corals.
The large 50ml pipe work draws water in through the live rock, (increasing circulation) and removing any trapped dirt from under the rock structures and back into circulation.
Sand hides the bottom pipework from view. The pipe used for the entrances is also hidden from view. The only things visable are the weirs and the returns, however these are not obtrustive.
Let me know what you think:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/newcircdesign.jpg
looks very good.
one thing i would say is make the weir boxes a bit deeper so you can have differing heights on the exit pipes, one submegerged and one at the surface, this shouldensure a quiet overflow and minimal gurgling.
imo the skimmer is far to small for the system size with your proposed stocking i would look into a 703 deltec or even a 1004 skimmer to keep it clean :D
p.s i had that skimmer on my 8.5 by 2.5 by 2.5 and it wasnt enough for mine even with a very very light bio load !!
Thanks Muzzy, I was thinking of having just one pipe in each of the weirs. What are the reason for having two? As a fail safe or to allow more flow?
imo the skimmer is far to small for the system size with your proposed stocking i would look into a 703 deltec or even a 1004 skimmer to keep it clean :D
p.s i had that skimmer on my 8.5 by 2.5 by 2.5 and it wasnt enough for mine even with a very very light bio load !!
According to the specifications of the skimmer, it is more than capable even at high bioload. On calculation of my stocking level for this tank it isn't overstocked. I will see how it get's on and if it's not working then I might have to upgrade. Thanks for the input tho.
well, ive never had a tank with 2 weirs, so probs no the best person to answer this.
but i think running 2 weirs might actually be a pain in the ass to get both running equal.
anyway, by having 2 pipes in the weir the majority of the water will flow down the one under the water and the other is to take up any slack, im not sure of the science behind it but it makes the overflow very quiet, in fact mine is virtually silent.
how this would work with 2 weirs i dont know, maybe just the same or maybe problematic, youd have to ask someone that has done it
dan-the-man
13-08-06, 21:54
You have to have both overflows in one wier.
Reason is to use the second as a wier water level control, surface skimmer and backup overflow. One takes just water and is adjusted by ball valve, one takes so little water it sucks in no air and so is silent. :)
HTH
Dan
I thought it was fairly common to have two weirs, one at either side. If I just had the one would it be powerful enough to skim the entire surface from one corner?
dan-the-man
13-08-06, 22:04
Yes it would still skim the entire tanks surface.
It is quite common for there to be two wiers (one at either side) , but they are durso style standpipes, not this wierd method I explained. :)
HTH
Dan
According to the specifications of the skimmer, it is more than capable even at high bioload. On calculation of my stocking level for this tank it isn't overstocked. I will see how it get's on and if it's not working then I might have to upgrade. Thanks for the input tho.
imo the volume a skimmer will handle needs to be halved if you are running a berlin style system which i think you are, no point wasting money at this point may as well spend wisely, i dont think anyone on here or in the uk would argue with that if they have a tank this size !!
I do not want to cause an arguement, I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with you. I have seen good reviews of the shorty 5000 and have used other aqua medic skimmers in the past so I am happy that it can handle the system.
People pick faults with a lot of systems and there are lot's of rules on what are the musts. But a lot of system run oblivious to these and often against the rules with success.
I'm not rushing into this system and I have thought about every purchase I have made in detail. I have already taken advice re the initial skimmer idea and t5 lighting, so don't assume that I don't listen to what people say.
Like I said, thanks for the input and we will see what happens.
Yes it would still skim the entire tanks surface.
It is quite common for there to be two wiers (one at either side) , but they are durso style standpipes, not this wierd method I explained. :)
HTH
Dan
Will one weir be capable of handling to two 3500l return pumps (with 2 x 40ml outlets in the one weir as suggested)
P.S i had a look at your build and how you did it on there, looks good and so does your tank :)
I do not want to cause an arguement, I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with you. I have seen good reviews of the shorty 5000 and have used other aqua medic skimmers in the past so I am happy that it can handle the system.
People pick faults with a lot of systems and there are lot's of rules on what are the musts. But a lot of system run oblivious to these and often against the rules with success.
I'm not rushing into this system and I have thought about every purchase I have made in detail. I have already taken advice re the initial skimmer idea and t5 lighting, so don't assume that I don't listen to what people say.
Like I said, thanks for the input and we will see what happens.
okay, just like to add that i run an aquarium maintance company thats been going for 5 years now and use aquarmedic every day and they are great products only recomended the deltec as it would fit in the cupboard still, but by all means waste your cash ;):D
dan-the-man
14-08-06, 10:11
Hi Sam
Thanks very much :)
Yes 2x40mm drains should hold that no problemo, it will probably be less anyway after head loss.
HTH
Dan
Thanks for the input folks. Please find a diagram of the revised weir and showing the water levels.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/newweir.jpg
Below is an overall diagram showing the overall water level of the tank. It leaves about an inch and a quarter at the top of the tank for braces.
I have changed the returns on the right hand side so that there are two outlets. I do not want a dead spot on the right hand side so they need to be strong enough to push water back along the tank. I'm not sure whether the returns will cut it so I may have one as a spur from the 2 sequenece 10000's that feed the back bank of outlets and the front right hand bank of outlets. At the moment each of those outlets have a flow rate of 2000lph but if I add another outlet it will reduce it to 1,800lph. Is this going to be enough??
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/newwaterlvl.jpg
Look forward to any comments or thoughts.
dan-the-man
14-08-06, 12:28
Hi Sam
Dont want to make this awkward but it may be easier if you did it exactly the same as I did. I have the two standpipes at the same height, so on the same horizontal.
Both pipes have 90deg bends on in the wier compartment, one aims downwards and so only takes water. The other one is twisted so it can set the water level of the wier, mine points nearly vertically.
Hope this makes sense lol, dont glue the 90deg bends I've mentioned. :)
Cheers
Dan
simon garratt
14-08-06, 12:37
hate to say it but Id agree on the skimmer front. The AM is quoted at 250 gall, which basically means in real world reefing about 150 gall normal load taking into account manufacturers propensity for outlandish advertising. On a par with an AP850.
For a system this size though , id be looking at ether an AM5000 twin, or even better like the AP703/1004 as allready stated.
Sam. I dont think anybody is critisizing to be honest :) . they are just basing friendly advice on experience. The guys who run the big tanks are well aware of the pitfalls of underestimating something as crucial as the skimmer. In most systems it forms the backbone and dictates the long term standard the tank is capable of reaching. This is why these guys base there decisions around a simple principle, Never make do with what you think will work, get what you 'know' will work.
Have a look at some of the members tank specs and youll see what i mean. Most of these guys run 'oversize' skimmers rather than trusting manufacturers quoted figures. ultimately the end result in most cases is a bighter, cleaner, more colourfull, and more prolific reef.
Regards
Si.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for that, I think I'm on the right track now... Please find below diagram with the weir front removed so you can see the elbows. I had to make the weir a little wider in order to fit the 2 40ml pipes in nicely horizontally.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/weirmod2.jpg
dan-the-man
14-08-06, 13:04
Thats it fella :D
Looks like its going to be one to watch :)
hate to say it but Id agree on the skimmer front. The AM is quoted at 250 gall, which basically means in real world reefing about 150 gall normal load taking into account manufacturers propensity for outlandish advertising. On a par with an AP850.
For a system this size though , id be looking at ether an AM5000 twin, or even better like the AP703/1004 as allready stated.
Sam. I dont think anybody is critisizing to be honest :) . they are just basing friendly advice on experience. The guys who run the big tanks are well aware of the pitfalls of underestimating something as crucial as the skimmer. In most systems it forms the backbone and dictates the long term standard the tank is capable of reaching. This is why these guys base there decisions around a simple principle, Never make do with what you think will work, get what you 'know' will work.
Have a look at some of the members tank specs and youll see what i mean. Most of these guys run 'oversize' skimmers rather than trusting manufacturers quoted figures. ultimately the end result in most cases is a bighter, cleaner, more colourfull, and more prolific reef.
Regards
Si.
Hi Simon,
I have seen the big tanks and I do agree with people about skimmers. However I don't agree with giving just critisim, I think if people want to give advice they should say something positive and constructive as well. It's not very nice hearing one line comments that seem to interprete like "that skimmer is rubbish" when your've already "wasted" I fair amount of money on it. As I'm sure you can apreciate.
I'm not sure we are talking about the same skimmer again? On various websites and the manufacturers website the Aqua Medic Turboflotor 5000 Shorty is quoted at 400gallons. Also craigg uses on it on his system which has a very high bioload and is a similar size in volume, perhaps a little more/less. (Edit: on reflection craigg actually uses the 5000 baby.)
Hi Simon,
I have seen the big tanks and I do agree with people about skimmers. However I don't agree with giving just critisim, I think if people want to give advice they should say something positive and constructive as well. It's not very nice hearing one like comments that seem to interprete like "that skimmer is rubbish" when your've already "wasted" I fair amount of money on it. As I'm sure you can apreciate.
I'm not sure we are talking about the same skimmer again? On various websites and the manufacturers website it is quoted at 400gallons. Also Craig uses on it on his system which has a high bioload and is a similar size in volume, perhaps a little less.
i was offering advice i wasnt being rude, at the end of the day that skimmer will be to small i was simply saying save your money and buy a bigger one as if you dont you will later !!
i do no what im talking about when it comes to this, as i have done it myself i had a very small bioload of fish the most i ever had was 10 fish in 400 gallons !! and they were small fish as well !! like coral sea clowns gobies etc !! and the skimmer wasnt enough, but as i said just waste money now you will buy a bigger skimmer later !
it was only advice at the end of the day, do what you see fit, to many on here dont listen to free advice and it just bites them in the long run !!
p.s i reckon that system with water in will hold 450 gallons so even at the manufacturers spes its to small !!
i would have said a 5000twin as well but you wont fit that under the stand :)
Jimmyjayz. I do not mind taking advice from people and I never said you didn't know what you we're talking about. However your advice comes across as being very negative, abrupt and matter of factly. I do not like being shouted!!! at and I do not want this post to become a shouting match. This may be something that we will have to agree to disagree on.
(The total system volume is 390gallons, that is if the sump and tank are running full to the brim.)
have you reduced the size from a 9 by 3 by 2 then ? and a 5 by 2 by 2 sump ?
as the total volume of those 2 would be 337 gallons and 125 giving a total of 462 plus the skimmer and any other equipment which is why i reckoned on 450 in total {as an over estimate}
at the end of the day i wasnt being rude i wasnt being negative, i was simply offering advice which you choose to ignore i dont care i will just watch you make the mistakes myself and others have done then !!
p.s negative would be that tank wont work as you obviously have no clue what your doing, but i didnt put that did i !!!!!!
anyway down to you, im leaving it there not going to help as im just being negative !! pmsl
simon garratt
14-08-06, 13:39
Guys, lets not have a falling out. advice can be taken or ignored at the end of the day its up to the individual.
Sam.
I take it this is the one your on about,
http://www.aqua-medic.de/seawater/en/9/tb5000shorty/
The capacity rating is severly exagerated imo for a single needlewheel skimmer, and as stated by the manufacturer its aimed between the 150gall TF1000 multi, and the baby T5000 at 250-500 gall
dont know where they get that 400gall rating from to be honest, it doesnt make sense to me, so , based on the limited reaction chamber dimentions and the single OR3500 pump, Id deffinately put it along the lines of the AP850 at 250 gall stock load. (as i said i allways ignore maximum ratings.)
Ultimately its up to you sam. and as you say, theres allways the possibility of upgrading later but ive usually found that by the time you get to this stage your allready battling a dirty tank so your work becomes even harder.
have you considerd asking the shop if they can exchange/upgrade what you allready have if youve allready purchased new and its still in its box?
Ill leave it there as i can see your feeling harrassed.
Regards
Si.
Jimmyjayz, the tank is 30" high not 36", the other dimensions are correct.
Simon, thanks for the input and friendly sound advice as usual. I purchased (second hand) the skimmer as it was suggested earlier in the thread and also advertised on this site (where I found the link to ebay) as a 400gallon skimmer. I wasn't just trusting the manufacturers rating, however I now feel like I've been ripped off.
I do not want to spend ton's of cash on a brand new skimmer, this is why I purchased the shorty second hand at £280. If I can get a similar sized skimmer that will fit in the same spot for the same amount of money I will upgrade and sell the skimmer or do I part exchange or something. Any recommendations.
I didn't mean to upset anyone, I was merely saying how I felt the advice had been interpreted.
Thanks to everyone who has posted for your time and interest in my post and project :)
Sam,
This is an interesting thread, IMHO that skimmer will be too small for your tank. I'd sell it on ebay.
Perhaps take a look at a Deltec 703, s/hand it will make a great buy. IMHO a skimmer is the heart of a healthy reef, stripping out various crud before they develop into nitrate/phosphate.
This looks like a great project ;) I look forward to seeing it progress and I think you're planning it very well :)
I'm delaying the build until January, increasing the glass thickness and changing the front panel to the extra clear glass. I will also be purchasing a new skimmer, calcium reactor and fludised carbon reactor.
I'm delaying the build until January, increasing the glass thickness and changing the front panel to the extra clear glass. I will also be purchasing a new skimmer, calcium reactor and fludised carbon reactor.
i wish i did the starfire glass on mine now, makes the colours more realistic for photos !!
it will be worth the wait mate, dont strech yourself on a tank this big as there are alwasy hidden costs to consider like the plumbing may be £300 plus for that tank :eek:
consider like the plumbing may be £300 plus for that tank :eek:
At least (if using TMC pipe/taps). For my 5 x 2 x 2 1/2ft tank, the plumbing came to around £400, that's with two Sequence 10k closed loops
For inspiration / ideas does anybody have any link or photos of their tanks and how they did their plumbing, sumps, aquascaping and weirs?
dan-the-man
15-08-06, 11:15
Think you've checked out mine below in my sig but if not, there it is :)
After much thought, consideration and money I've decided to stop this project before it gets out of hand. I can already see it going down that way and I do not want a huge tank that I will have to sell at half the price in a years time because I can't afford to keep it.
The planning has been a real eye opener and learning experience and I do not intend to keep the current systems, I still wish to upgrade/improve them.
The new play is a 7 x 2 x 2 softy reef and a 2ft SPS cube. The 7ft tank will come first and the the 2ft cube will follow shortly after. I already have most of the equipment I need to start so the build will definatley start in October, if not before. All I need is the tank, the cabinet and a closed loop pump and I'm good to go. Stay tuned to for a new post in the next couple of weeks.
(ha just re-read the beginning of this post, should have listened to Simon earlier when he said "re-Think")
After much thought, consideration and money I've decided to stop this project before it gets out of hand. I can already see it going down that way and I do not want a huge tank that I will have to sell at half the price in a years time because I can't afford to keep it.
The planning has been a real eye opener and learning experience and I do not intend to keep the current systems, I still wish to upgrade/improve them.
The new play is a 7 x 2 x 2 softy reef and a 2ft SPS cube. The 7ft tank will come first and the the 2ft cube will follow shortly after. I already have most of the equipment I need to start so the build will definatley start in October, if not before. All I need is the tank, the cabinet and a closed loop pump and I'm good to go. Stay tuned to for a new post in the next couple of weeks.
(ha just re-read the beginning of this post, should have listened to Simon earlier when he said "re-Think")
why not do the 2' cube next to the 7' and trim it with a bit of wood so it looks like part of the same tank would look great imo :D
simon garratt
15-08-06, 17:43
Sam, youve got my respect. its nice to see someone stop for five minuits and think really seriously about what they are undertaking. Tanks of that size take an amazing amount of time and effort to build and maintain. too many people just charge on doggedly ignoring all the warning signs only to struggle at a later stage, getting into untold stress and financial loss. ultimately its the stock that suffers in the end as the novely wares off.
hats off to you sir and best wishes for the 7x2x2 which im sure will be just as stunning and easyer to manage.
regards
Si
i keep getting tempted to reset mine up as fish only but know i couldnt do it :D
why not do the 2' cube next to the 7' and trim it with a bit of wood so it looks like part of the same tank would look great imo :D
lol, I know what your getting at (it would be the same size as before). But it is actually cheaper to do them both seperatley and I already have brilliant spots for both of the tanks.
Sam, youve got my respect. its nice to see someone stop for five minuits and think really seriously about what they are undertaking. Tanks of that size take an amazing amount of time and effort to build and maintain. too many people just charge on doggedly ignoring all the warning signs only to struggle at a later stage, getting into untold stress and financial loss. ultimately its the stock that suffers in the end as the novely wares off.
hats off to you sir and best wishes for the 7x2x2 which im sure will be just as stunning and easyer to manage.
regards
Si
Thanks Simon, I'm sure it will work out well in the end and look forward to starting the 7footer soon.
i keep getting tempted to reset mine up as fish only but know i couldnt do it :D#
you should stick that bloody dog of yours in there at least i wouldnt get molested when i come round:D
#
you should stick that bloody dog of yours in there at least i wouldnt get molested when i come round:D
she just sniffs your butt to make you feel at home as she knows its all that happens at your salon :D:eek:
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.