Help please

[JonW]

Think I'm looking down the barrel of a potential wipe-out here.

Fish have a dusty coating on their backs and fins and they are scratching against the rocks. I have read a lot of the the threads about this (amyloodinium I guess) but I'm not sure what the best course of action is right now.

There is a plan forming in my head:
1. I take tomorrow off work and buy a 3 ft tank
2. Fill it with water from the main tank.
3. Tear down the rocks in the main tank and catch ALL the fish for transfer
to the new tank.
4. Add just enough of the lower grade rock to the new tank to act as bio
filtration (this will be sacrificed)
5. Get some cupramine and start using it in the new tank.
6. Leave the main tank running for 6-8 weeks to starve out the amyloodinium. I'm hoping that I can leave the shrimps and corals in there?

7. Try to keep the fish alive in the new tank with cupramine.

What do people think of that? Do you foresee any problems with this or indeed whether it might work or not?

I'd be very grateful for any advice here as I really don't want to lose all of these fish.:( :(

Thanks

JonW

[Wombat]

Damm, Sorry to hear than

Yep that is a good strategy. It sound like classical Amyloodinium from your description. It is a bugger to treat

Get a copper test kit too you will need a dose of about 0.2ppm for Amyoodinium treatment. This is important as below 0.2ppm copper you won't get a very fast result. Chances are you will need closer to 8 weeks than six to effect a cure.

The shrimps & corals will be OK in the main tank (the parasite shouldn't be able to survive on them)

If you can I'd suggest keeping the 3ft as a QT in future at least the LR won't be waisted.

When you put the cured fish back in don;t put them in all at once if possible. AS it may overload the biological filtration (and if you have residual parasite in the tank then you have only one fish at risk

corrected for dose typo

[JonW]

Thanks very much Wombat - I really value your advice on this.
I should say that the spots are definitely white but small and powdery. Reading through the books and threads it's quite confusing about whether they should be white or gold coloured.

I am a bit worried about keeping the ammonia and nitrites under control in the QT but can't see many options. I do have a small internal filter running that should be matured but won't cope with the sudden addition of 10 fish. Hence adding the LR....

JonW

[zippy]

wont the cuprazine kill the bacterier in the live rock in quarintine tank??
so after a first dose you will have no bio filter in there?

[JonW]

God I hope not!

Quote from the Seachem website:
"Cupramine may slightly ****** the [filter] bacteria but overall it is safe to use and won't adversely affect the nitrifying bacteria. "

[Wombat]

wont the cuprazine kill the bacterier in the live rock in quarantine tank??
so after a first dose you will have no bio filter in there?

I've not found this an issue with copper in a Marine tank assuming the dose is correct

[Wombat]

IME the spots have the colour of "finely ground white pepper" sort of gold-greyish-white

[JonW]

Wow that was a busy day!
Woke up early and phoned into work that I couldn't come in because my fish needed me! Think my boss thinks I'm completely doo-lally.

Anyway, went on a hunt for a good hospital tank. Found one of the Via Aqua models that looked good. Most importantly it allowed me to add my own filter media when most small inexpensive aquaria just use the internal filters with new sponges. Had an idea for the filter media that would kick-start the whole thing. I chose a couple of pieces of so-so LR and broke them up with a hammer. Then used these as a media in place of the supplied ceramic rings. Hopefully that will provide some instant denitrification capabilities. I'm a bit worried that calcareous meterial is supposed to lessen the effect of the copper medication, but then if they all die from ammonia poisoning then the amyloodinium will be the least of my worries!

Just spent a couple of hours tearing out every single piece of LR from the tank just to catch the sodding fish. Still have now managed it and didn't even get stung by the foxface :cool:

Now I just need to get hold of some cupramine. Been ringing round all day and the only place within a 50 mile radius that sells it only opens at the weekend:(

Might have to use cuprazin instead.

Let's hope this works.

JonW

[Wombat]

Fingers crossed

IMHO it doesn't matter what copper based med you use just use the copper test kit to keep the levels at a therapeutic dose.

good luck

[bony]

also try and keep your oxygen levels in the tank quite high using aventuri or a airstone.

[JonW]

Thanks guys

I have a venturi and an airstone in there just for good measure (am also using a small internal filter that I've had running for a while now and that has a venturi fitted).

Tomorrow we get the copper medication going...

JonW

[bony]

best of luck.

[JonW]

Wombat

I'm using copper treatment now (Cuprazin) and all seems OK so far. However, I was just re-reading your advice and you recommended a concentration of 2ppm? My LFS has just said I should go no higher than 0.3ppm or the fish could die. A quick search on the 'net also seems to indicate that 0.2-0.3 ppm would be the norm. I also have a bottle of Cupramine which claims to be tolerated better than chelated copper treatments and even that recommends going no higher than 0.6ppm.

Can I ask where your figure of 2ppm comes from?

Thanks

JonW

[popsock]

2ppm is nuts. He probably meant 0.2ppm. Most common diseases die off en masse around 0.15-0.25ppm, white spot and velvet included, which is why 0.3ppm is usually recommend.

Good luck. Andy.

[Wombat]

Apolgies got my decimal point in the wrong place.

[simon garratt]

Not meaning to be nasty here. But this is a very good example whereby if you are giving out advice where addatives or chemicals are involved. Please please please double check your info before you post and if need be, check your typing afterwards.. If you are not 100% sure then its better to simply admit your not sure. Please take care, likewise to the person asking the Q, whatever you are recomended, double check against the manufacturers info. before you dose.

getting a decimal point in the wrong place can mean the difference between no effect and a few thousand quids worth of effect in the wrong hands.


Si.

[JonW]

Hi all

Update on the whitespot treatment in QT -

Well it's been difficult. Was using the Cuprazin but have been very unimpressed at the crappy instructions provided with it that don't even tell you what copper concentration will result from the suggested dosage. To make matters worse the 'pre-matured filter' and the broken LR rubble I was using didn't seem enough to stop an ammonia spike. Was doing water changes to reduce the ammonia but also trying to compensate with Cuprazin to keep the copper levels up. Result? - the copper level peaked at about 0.5ppm for a few hours during which time my Randall's Goby received a lethal dose and died that evening. My firefish was also very close to death. At that point I did a 50% water change and added carbon filtration overnight. By morning we were back down to about 0.15ppm. It's been a few days and every day I've got home from work expecting to see the firefish dead but lo and behold he seems to have pulled through and is now eating again.

As of now I'm holding off the copper treatment so that the filter can catch up and the fish can regain their strength. In a week or so I plan to resume treatment with Cupramine this time (the Cuprazin is in the bin). I'm gonna be bloody careful with the concentration this time (seeing the goby die wasn't pleasant:( ).

JonW

[instantsquid]

Sorry to hear about your woes, Jon - I had similar troubles myself when trying to set up a hospital tank in a hurry. I assumed my biological filtration would suffice and of course it didn't. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - I certainly won't find myself in the same situation again.

It sounds like you've got a grip on things now though - let everything (the fish and the tank) settle down before restarting any treatment.

Best of luck, and keep us updated with your progress.

- Ian

[JonW]

Thanks Ian

This whole scenario has definitely taught me the error of my ways - I now have the QT tank and from now on all new stock will be quarantined (once we've got the current fish well and back in the main tank).

JonW