Angel Behaviour

[Col]

Hi,
I have posted some of this in reefs without too much feedback, so I thought it would be better received here.
I have a 4"+ juvenile emperor that is displaying signs of illness ?? or not normal behaviour. Pic of the fish here.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190521&goto=newpost (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190521&goto=newpost)

It is still feeding well very well. I have increased feeding to 4 times daily with nightime feeding every hour I tip a small amount into the tank. It is resting on the sand every now and then but no rapid breathing as yet.
I find it difficult to determine what, if anything is wrong. As I have been told by my LFS that when the colour change occurs their body takes on a whiter colour than normal.

Can anyone confirm this please?

I have a hospital tank empty ready to move the fish if necessary but I don't want to stress the fish any more than neccessary.

Any suggestions please ?

[Wombat]

The colour could be the normal maturation change but the sitting around behaviour is not normal, but I have no idea what could be the cause at the moment

[Col]

Wombat,
The fins are slightly cloudy and a little ragged. But otherwise very difficult to see anything on the body.
I propose to feed him up and keep an eye on him.

Do you think the introduction of some cleaner shrimp would help ?
It seem s to want something to clean it as it is backing it's whole body into a cave where my peppermints are.

[Gillybaby]

Is the emperor being bullied at all? Mine went very similar to yours when he was getting picked on by my regal tang but once it stopped his colour returned to normal.

It does appear to be starting to mature, they do change their habits at this stage (especially feeding habits) so maybe its just feeling out of sorts. I'm a bit concerned about the sitting around on the sand though as mine has never done that. So long as you are keeping it well fed and your water conditions are good I should think there's a good chance it'll get over it.

[Col]

Gillybaby,
Difficult to say if the emperor is being bullied. As I said in the other thread in reefs, the yellow tang and emperor were swimming about like boosum budies. But fish do sense when one is weak and I have seen the tang reversing into the emperor withle displaying it's fins.

I had a look at your pics on your website, your emperor is just a bit smaller and probably younger in those pics. Difficult to tell really about the colour.

BTW Nice website and layout.

May I ask what you feed your and how often ? Currently frozen - mysis, brine shrimp, krill, cockle, angel butterfly mix, ocean nutrition flakes and nori every other day.

[Col]

I was doing a 20% water change today so when I had some water made up I took the chance of setting up a QT. The angel is getting whiter every day. This morning it was lying horizontally on the sand. He is in qt now and am treating with cuprazin. It has bee in since noon and is swimming about more. I will monitor it closley every day. It says on the cuprazin to dose again every 2nd day. I have a copper test kit and the recommended level is 0.3mg. Should I keep it at this for a few days, 7 days or until his colour comes back ?

[Wombat]

keep it at around .15-.2 until he has recovered, still no real idea what it is though

Possibly costia, possibly amyloodinuim but other fish in the tank should be infected

[Col]

Wombat,
Thanx for the advice it is much appreciated.
.15 -.2mg/l it is then.

The other fish have cloudy slightly ragged fins mainly pelvic and pectorial.
All still feeding whith no sign of anything on their bodies.

[Wombat]

OOH I'm thining brooklynella with the cloudy ragged fins.....

[Col]

The blue spot puffer was the last aqisition 2 weeks ago and I did not QT it.
It will NOT happen again.

Here are a couple of pics of the puffers' fins. The tank is a little cloudy as I have done a water change today.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/Puffer1.jpg

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q1/Puffer2.jpg

[Wombat]

Yep brooklynella or costia I'd say

[Col]

Wombat,
Should I continue with the cuprazin in qt ? and possibly move the puffer over as well ?

[Col]

Reefs org suggests
"
1) Giving a "dip" in freshwater of the same temperature & pH as the Marine tank, for about 15 minutes ( careful observation must be made, during this time, to avoid distress, & the fish removed, if major problem is observed).
2) Giving a bath in Sea water with Formalin added add at a dosage of 1000 ppm for some 15 minutes.
3) Adding an Acriflavine product (such as Fish-Vet's Revive) to the tank water for a period of 2 weeks after the above treatments.
4) Taking severe steps to ensure that water quality is optimum along with the TOTAL removal of any detrital matter . "

I have read that the copper is not an effective cure ??

[Dr Bee]

I'd agree with wombat's diagnosis

I'd move the puffer over as well and continue with copper based meds

[Col]

Wombat/Dr Bee,

Thank you guys for the advice it is much appreciated.
I'll move the puffer over as soon as I can catch him.

[Gillybaby]

Sorry Col, haven't been on for a few days. Looks nasty and would concur with the others, most definitely not what my emperor had. Hope they pull through ok :(

As for feeding, I feed a very similar mix along with all the zoas that I once had in my main reef (managed to rescue some and put them in my nano before total annhilation). I just make sure he's kept very fat at all times, even to the point of overfeeding as I understand when they start to mature their appetite can increase tenfold.

Keep us updated on your progress. If you need anything just give us a shout, we are only in Troon so not far ;)

[Col]

Thanx for all the help !

Angel is still hanging in there :) I thought I had lost it in the middle of the week. It was completely horizontal and spinning around on itself in qt. But it has started swimming about again, although it does seem to list to the side sometimes. Yellow tang has gone the same way as the angel, ragged fins and whitening on the body. I will move it to qt once I do another water change tomorrow.

[Col]

Hi,
Just an update on the emperor. It has been in qt for 14 days now and looks like it may pull through.:) The fins are clear and unragged, the fish swims normally instead of breakdancing on it's nose, and is eating very well after stopping for 3 days last week. The copper meds seem to have done the trick. I can't thank you guys out there enough for all the advice and support, especially Wombat and Dr Bee. Without this source of information I would have lost this prized fish without a doubt. It still looks whiter in the body but again that may be due to adult colouration. Perhaps someone could advise on this.
Please see pic attached on the health of this fish and after 14 days should it be set free from qt ?

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Angel.jpg

Thank you

P.S The puffer is much better also.