View Full Version : Help please!Me acros aint none too good!
Reef bloke
03-10-06, 19:10
Ive got a prob that i cant quite figure out.
Here are a few pics before a start.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/knackere milli.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/knackered acro.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Knackered acro2.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/knackered echinopora.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/acro3knackered.jpg
As you can see im suffering a sort of STN event that has taken place over the last 5 days,it has effected Acroporas(although not all)millipora,echinopora and my montipora danae.
My parameters are:
Ca 440
alk 11 dkh
mag 1400
temp 27 max day-25.4 min night
Ph 8.2 day 7.9 evening although this could be lower as i havent tested in the dead on night.
Nitrate 5-7
Nitrite0
Amm0
P04 undetectable
Lights 3 by 250 watt arcadias on for 8 hrs day(2 20k XM's 1 14 k arcadia)
Top off automated with ro
Skimming via ap850 with very good skimmate
Flow,OR 6500 return,2 6000lph streams and a 7000lph stream
40 gall water change a month with Kent salt.
Most of the damage seems to happen at night so im not sure if its temp or Ph swing or even a critter.I have also just had a reeflux lamp go on me due to the ends of the lamp melting.
I have also recently changed me ca reactor from a Korallin 1501 to a jetstream 1,funnily enough this started a few days between turning the korallin off and the jeststream on although parameters remained stable.
Thoughts very much appreciated,hopefully ive not left anything out.
Cheers Tony
The way they are all bleaching out at the tips looks like light shock...
what have you done differently recently ??
Look for a source of iron, maybe a pump impeller that is damaged. I recently lost nearly all my sps cos of a couple of pumps that went rusty
oh crap.
have you done anything different with the tank in the last seven days?
it is a bit strange the way different hard corals are bleaching.
Reef bloke
03-10-06, 21:07
The reeflux lamp went as mentioned.Also there is a stainless steel temp probe going rusty,looks like ill have to get it out.
So in the last seven-fourteen days,the lamp has gone,added new ca reactor and the nights are a little colder,thats about it.Time to search for rusty gear me thinks,i do have a cheap pump supplying my skimmer.I better get it out and have a butchers.
Cheers all tony
I'd go with pavlo, I lost several acros recently and have put it down to some clothes pegs I put in the sump which were going rusty. I've since done several water chages, run carbon 24/7 and used a polyfilter and haven't lost any more yet though my growth and colouration still aren't much better. Got to say though that my polyfilter was solid dark brown within 24 hours.
Twistedpro
03-10-06, 22:26
Did anything get into the tank when the bulb went? I would not have thought the solder would have done much good.
Have you had a big alk swing with the calcium reactor going online
Reef bloke
03-10-06, 23:26
Bought the Calcium reactor online slowly so Alk was stable,bulb dripped into the cover glass,i placed a towel over the tank so nothing went in.
Looked at cheapy pump and that was fine,the temp probe was well rusty though.
Ive got other problems now which i will explain in a new thread.
BUMHOLES!
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1530454#post1530454
Reef bloke
06-10-06, 16:45
It would seem theres more going on that meets the eye here.Last night(by torch light) i spotted what looked like the top of an aptasia disappearing over the top of a Monti Undata,patches seem to appear over night.The aiptasia looking thing was about 10mm across and was very mobile.I wonder if it was some kind of sps eating nudi?
The patches that are gone seem to have been stripped in one area and look perfectly healthy the day before.Any idea?
Cheers Tony
Hi Use A Polyfilter Pad That Will Indicate Whats In Your Tank As To Contamination.
It's Most Likely To Be Light Related. Sorry Mate Tanks To Sterile Not Enought Iodine.
Reef bloke
06-10-06, 18:24
Had two polyfilters in for two days,not showing much but most of the lps and softies look happier.The sps dont unfotunately which makes me think i have a predator.I have however noticed something else this afternoon lol,my CO2 is starting to run low.On checking my CO2 pipework i found a small split where the pipe connects to the regs.
Im now wondering whether CO2 has been collecting in the cab at night and being sucked in by the skimmer.Perhaps ive been having ph crashes in the dead of night?
If The Polyfillter Is Not Showing A Colour Of Some Kind It's NOT Chemical Related. It's Your Lights Mate Higher Them Up Use A Little Iodine If You Don't Use At The Moment. Keep Us Updated.
Reef bloke
06-10-06, 18:35
Errrr i thought the polyfilter change colour depending on what pollutant was present be it chemical or organics?They have turned a very light brown but i suppose that is to be expected as brown would indicate organics which there are bound to be some.Ill have to get an Iodine test kit i suppose to test if my Iodine is low.
Best of luck Tony, I've got a problem with nine at the moment, must be something in the air lol.
I think mine was caused by a stream which slipped down, hit a pavona with too much force, which sloughed off some tissue, which resulted in a small amouint of brown jelly, which "blew" round the tank, coupled with an excessively high calcium level.....................
I think that was the problem anyway. Good luck though, SPS grow far too slowly as it is without something attacking them :(
Sorry Mate I Was Trying To Write It's Not Chemical Related If There Is No Colour Indications On The Polyfilter As Far As Iron Or Any Other Heavy Metals Are Concerned
Reef bloke
06-10-06, 18:56
Ahh o.k i see where your coming from now.Thanks for the input Chris,at least i know im not on my own lol.
do u use algae magnets?and keep them in the tank?
iff so take it out and open it up and you may be suprised what you will see..
Reef bloke
07-10-06, 13:01
I was actually thinking about this the other day Chris,i used to take them out,i think ill start taking them out again.
While I'm on the subject of magnets,what about the stream magnet holders?Anyone had probs with these rusting or are they resin sealed or sommit?
I have also noticed a think red blanket like algae settling on the acro's and montis in places.I originally thought it was cyano but now I'm not so sure,it doesn't release any O2 bubbles like Cyano does and its really thick and velvety,any idea?
Cheers Tony
Reef bloke
07-10-06, 14:40
I think im getting paranoid now lol,the men in black are out to get my corals you know!
Is the coral dead where the algae is appearing? (an obvious question I know :D)
Dave
Reef bloke
07-10-06, 19:05
The algae is settling on healthy montis now,there are bands of the stuff appearing between the daed and healthy tissues of the acros so im not sure.
This is a long shot, based on nothing.
But you say you installed a new Calc reactor. I assume that you changed your media Maybe there is something in the media.
Algae = phosphates or something else leaching.
like I said a long shot
Dave
If you run carbon, did you change that?
Just thinking tips = light, new bulb, possible alkalinity swing with new reactor.
Dave
Reef bloke
07-10-06, 21:10
Hi Dave
Alk has remained quite stable at between 10.5-11.2 throughout.The media was supplied by STM and is a little like broken up hard coral skeletons as per Schurans instructions.I soaked it in RO for a day before use to help leach any PO4 if it was present.My Nitrate is now at around 5 and i cant detect PO4 on my Salifert kit,although thats not to say theres none in there.The tips on the acros and edges on the montis seem to be decalcifying.I have run loads of carbon this week and polyfilters with no change.I'm stumped!
Have you considered that there might be a pathogen in the water? Are you using ozone? If not it might be worth a try.
As the algae might be secondary.
I am not convinced of this, just throwing ideas around.
Dave
Reef bloke
07-10-06, 23:15
You may well be right mate,im not using ozone at the mo.Damn this is getting more complex lol
You may well be right mate,im not using ozone at the mo.Damn this is getting more complex lol
That's the problem with this hobby, once you get past the basics. It's very much finger in the air.
Dave
Reef bloke
08-10-06, 00:29
After chatting to two local reefers they have both lost their acros and montis over the last month.This is sounding spooky now.
Are all your frags/colonies affected? or a few under the older bubls. (you have 3 IIRC).
If it is all over your tank, I can't see it being the light as AFAIK you have only changed one bulb. I would have thought the others under the older bulbs would be OK.
Dave
Reef bloke
08-10-06, 20:25
Mmmmm it only the corals under the two outer lamps at the mo,im going to swap them over tonight with a different set.
crinoid chris
08-10-06, 21:12
reefbloke.
me and my mate went halfs on a bucket of "kent". i am having the same issues you are, my nitrate test kit is a bit old and was reading zero on my tank and about five on my mates.he got a new salifert kit and our nitrates are around 25ppm. we checked a bucket of salt water that i was ready to use and that read about 15ppm. he's had the kit checked and it is reading true.this is the second bucket of kent that as been cra!p.never again.
try a new nitrate kit and see if it is that.
chris
Reef bloke
08-10-06, 21:17
Right course of action thus far will be to change salt brands back to RC and swap my lamps out.Also ive had a good look at the burnt tips tonight and they are burnt on the sides facing the light which then causes them all to strip eventually.
We shall see.
Mmmmm it only the corals under the two outer lamps at the mo,im going to swap them over tonight with a different set.
If yours are DE, you are using a cover glass aren't you?
How old are these bulbs as a matter of interest?
Also if you are changing the bulbs remember to increase the height.
Dave
Reef bloke
08-10-06, 23:12
Yep using cover glass as i realise DE's have no built in U.V protection.The lamps are XM 20k 250(2.5 months old) on the ends that are over the most effected corals.I have swapped em with a couple of 2 month old Arcadia 14k's i have.The corals were doing well under the Arcadias so wont hurt to try them again,increased the height to around 20 inches from the water surface.Ill try and get some better piccies tommorow.
Cheers tony
Don't know what to suggest mate, this is a pain in the goolies tho :( best of luck & hope you sort it. I'll be interested to see if you can find the cause?
Good luck :)
Don't know what to suggest mate, this is a pain in the goolies tho :( best of luck & hope you sort it. I'll be interested to see if you can find the cause?
Good luck :)
ditto
Reef bloke
09-10-06, 19:06
No no no chaps your suposed to come up with the missing link.Slapped some iodine in last night i must get a test kit though.Ill just have see suck it and see now as i dont know what else to try.ill get some updated pics later.
Cheers Tony
Reef bloke
10-10-06, 01:29
Right a few pics,i tried to get pics of a lovely green acros that spewed its inards out and tried to eat itself on the tip yesterday when i fed the tank but it was out of focus.
Makes me wonder if they are just plain hungry.
Anyhow have a look at the tips on these and you will notice that they are going from the surface of the tip thats facing the light.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/acro strip two.jpg
This acro has been o.k but started to go yesterday
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/acros strip.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/echinopora strip.jpg
Sorry didnt get the top half of this one which is badly stripped,my dog was bugging me at the time lol
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Acro strip 3.jpg
Well there ya go.
MarineManMercer
10-10-06, 11:18
reefbloke.
me and my mate went halfs on a bucket of "kent". i am having the same issues you are, my nitrate test kit is a bit old and was reading zero on my tank and about five on my mates.he got a new salifert kit and our nitrates are around 25ppm. we checked a bucket of salt water that i was ready to use and that read about 15ppm. he's had the kit checked and it is reading true.this is the second bucket of kent that as been cra!p.never again.
try a new nitrate kit and see if it is that.
chris
Hmmmm since i have started using kent also my nitrates are up at 25ppm and a couple of acros look abit brownish compared to before.
Now this is something that worries me, as there's another guy on UR (Andy J) and in his huge tank he lost all his SPS, he had a stunning display, maybe a future TOTM if it had carried on....he never did find out why or what the cause was for his SPS wipe-out? For more details see: http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=181325
This is the problem with reefkeeping; it's relatively easy to get (fairly) good results with SPS.....for me, the real skill comes in when the chips are down; having the tenacity and pragmatic attributes to continue investigating until problems are found and a cure affected. I'm not knocking Andy J as it appears he explored every avenue and unfortunately he could not stop his SPS from going to heaven, even replacing his halide ballasts.
It is this that worries me; even when all is going well and you're doing everything right, you might just start loosing corals for no identifiable reason. Makes my ring twitch just thinking about it happening to me.:(
I'd love one of the Simons (or another grand-daddy SPS keeper) to add their thoughts as to why they think this can happen in an apparently flourishing system? Why is this going on? :confused:
I must admit, it is testament to the strength of character to people who can come back after loosing so very much.
I hope we don't see another mass loss of SPS here - fingers crossed we can all put our heads together and find a cure... ;)
Tony, have you tried doing large water changes? just in the hope that if it is a toxin, you can dilute it out that way.
Let me know if you need a hand mixing salt, I can do 175l at a time if needed.
I really hope you crack this, you put so much into UR it would be tragic if you don't get something back out :(
Have you considered that there might be a pathogen in the water? Are you using ozone? If not it might be worth a try.
As the algae might be secondary.
I am not convinced of this, just throwing ideas around.
Dave
Reading all this over again, I'd say this could be wise to add ozone, scrub off any pathogens....also the fact that your SPS are poorley could invite disease....
It is this that worries me; even when all is going well and you're doing everything right, you might just start loosing corals for no identifiable reason. Makes my ring twitch just thinking about it happening to me.:(
Same here, I think I am having beginners luck at the moment. Just keep on wondering what is around the corner.
I am also dreading when it's time to change the bulbs.
Dave
Reef bloke
10-10-06, 18:26
Tis a strange thing to be sure,i keep going over it again and again.Since adding iodine and changing the lamps back the stripping doesnt seem to be as bad and may even have stopped.Although the stripping comes in waves so i may just be on the verge of another big un.
Ive been doing 180 litre changes but i want to change back to RC before i do anymore.I have thought about ozone but cant afford the kit at the mo.At the end of the day there are peeps out there with a very laid back attitude and very basic equipment and their sps grow like weeds.I tried to set my system up correctly,just goes to show theres so much more going on than meets the eye.Thanks for all your input peeps and offers of help,i am grateful that the stripping is slow though and hasnt effected all my sps 'yet'.The only other thing i havent checked is Strontium,which i may well do.Clutching at straws a bit though.
regards Tony
Tony
If it's stopped, personally I would leave things as they are at the moment. No water changes, etc. and try to bring stability back into the system.
I do wonder, in situations like this whether the constant changing of parameters/equipment trying to find the cure, does more harm than good.
Also about your lights, didn't you have Reeflux's a while back. Maybe the changing of the bulbs has caused a delayed problem.
Glad to hear it has stopped :cool:
Dave
Reef bloke
10-10-06, 18:47
Hi Dave
I had a reeflux in the centre that melted at the contacts and XM 20k's at each end i.e 3 250 watt halides in an arcadia series 3.Funny thing is that the centre of the tank has remained reasonably uneffected under the knackered reeflux although the acros are lower there.
Im going to leave things as is for the time being.Fingers crossed!
Iodine is a very good prophylactic, although it does not stay active in a reef tank for very long.
Its continued use is to be recommended.
Cheers
Reef bloke
10-10-06, 23:14
Got to get me a test kit now then.
if you need any RC at short notice, give me a holler.
got about half a bucket sat here
@ 1.025 26.0c = ca 430 dkh 7.7 mag 1250
should you need any :)
Reef bloke
10-10-06, 23:43
Cheers Scott,might well take you up on that,fancy trying some Kent for me to double check it lol.
feck off, i'm one of the laid back jerks with the happy sps remember, but i aint daft. i know a good thing when i see/mix it :D :D :D
Just re-reading this thread, I wonder if you've actually solved the problem by removing the rusty probe?
Also you said "i spotted what looked like the top of an aptasia disappearing over the top of a Monti Undata"
Did you ever see it again??
Regards,
Greg
Reef bloke
11-10-06, 18:21
Could have been the probe,who knows lol.Not seen the creature from the deep again,i suppose it was a nudi.Im on full nudi alert though now so will report back if i find it or them even!
MarineManMercer
11-10-06, 18:30
I have noticed my nitrates have went up from 10ppm to 25ppm since i started using kent salt.It worries me incase it harms my sps at some time.The only reason why i changed salt was my mag levels were low and i knew the kent is good in that way for raising it.
Reef bloke
11-10-06, 18:40
My mag levels in my bucket of Kent were pretty bad,1025 i think.My nitrate levels have also risen in my tank from 2-5 to 5-7 since using the Kent.I suppose i should test a fresh mix of Kent for nitrates although ill probably move back to RC anyhow.
MarineManMercer
12-10-06, 12:34
I think i will too as i cant trust kent nomore
SPS Hoover
12-10-06, 19:30
Tony
I have looked out your pic's IMO its not light shock. I also think it is nothing to do with Kent.
IMO its either phosphate or a bacteria bloom several people last year around April time were all were losing acro's due too this issue. Several of these people now dose iodine regularly because that is what eventually cured it. It was put down at time to be due to seasonal temp increase in their tanks.
Have you noticed your tank running at higher temp.
Regards test for iodine its not very reliable so dose regularly and sparingly i would avoid more water changes as this will dilute iodine more.
you got any ratios for dosing iodine si? 10 ml per 100 litres or something?
Hi dont know if this helps you but i use Tropic Marin Pro Coral Iodine at 2 drops per day to keep up the levels, ive tested for iodine before i started adding it and they were low.
SPS Hoover
12-10-06, 22:50
I use neat Aquarius Iodine 2ml for my 800gals Its in the Boreman book on making a diluter solution. I'll dig it out tomorrow
Reef bloke
13-10-06, 00:28
Thanks for the reply Si,i think things are pointing to a bacterial bloom of some kind.Since using the iodine things are looking better and a few of the acros are regrowing(touch lots of wood).Temps have remained pretty stable although just before i got mt chiller temps did peak a little on a couple of days at 27.5 and i noticed a change in the corals about this time(nearly 2 months ago).I suppose this event could have initiated a bloom.
I double dosed the initial recommended iodine dose of 5ml per 200litres(Kent iodine) to get levels up and i am now following the recommended dosing.
Fingers crossed!
Where do you get your Iodine Si ,Chemist?
Are you testing for Iodine or just dosing it?
SPS Hoover
13-10-06, 09:51
Hi Tony
Chemist ask for Aqueous Iodine made by Thronton and Ross its about a £10 500ml will last you years
How many total gallons do you have?
Reef bloke
13-10-06, 13:21
cheers Si,Around 200 gall mate
SPS Hoover
13-10-06, 13:24
you should dose 0.75ml monthly IMO
Reef bloke
13-10-06, 14:16
cheers Si much appreciated
Reef bloke
18-10-06, 17:48
Quick update:Things have really improved,a couple of corals have almost totally repaired.Things i have done in order of what i feel have made the most impact.
1 Dosed Iodine
2 Reverted to my Arcadia lamps,i dont think the XM,s like arcadia ballasts.I contacted Arcadia and asked if their ballasts conformed to the ANSI M80 spec XM say to use.Arcadia didnt even know what the spec was so probably best to avoid using the XM,s for now in my case.
3.Replace a rusting impeller in my skimmer
4 Wash all my frozen food in RO water
5 Took out all my magfloats
They colours on a few of my corals are the best they have ever been,just hope they stay that way lol.
Thanks for everyones help and advise Tony
Tony what iodine are you using; I was using Lugols (Kent) but have just ran out - thinking of the brand Si mentions....
Glad to hear you have over-come this problem! Well done ;)
Reef bloke
18-10-06, 18:19
I'm using the Kent stuff mate,tried to get some aqueous iodine a two local chemist and they didn't stock it and said it wasn't listed anymore.Might try a few more when I'm out and about though.
Cheers Tony
gary smith
18-10-06, 18:41
i had the same trouble mate so i got some from hear
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140017390318&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=004
MaidstoneMarine
18-10-06, 20:21
glad to hear the situation around. I pulled my magfloat out last night wondering if that could've been my cause and today I've noticed the brown algae has disappeared from the pavona? Not sure if something has just cleaned them but I've got three and they're all cleaned! I'm gonna go smash my magfloat to see if thats gone rusty inside!
did you get an iodine test kit? would be interested in your results.
Reef bloke
18-10-06, 21:46
I should really get a kit Chris.I did have a magfloat in the sump that i nearly forgot about,i forgot to add the fact that i have removed all my magfloats too.Strange about the Pavona Chris,keep me updated mate.
if you guys want lugols then labpak sell it in 500ml bottles for £9
http://www.labpakchemicals.com/product.asp?CatID=33&ProdID=241
SPS Hoover
19-10-06, 10:08
Isn't lugols diluted aquaeous iodine so therefore the ebay link was better value
no it isnt, it is a mix of iodine and potassium iodide, IIRC it is more representative of the the iodine composition of seawater, biologically avalable iodine in the marine environment is predominantly iodide.. this is why lugols is a better way of dosing iodine.. you will also have a reduced level of iodate (IO3) compared to dosing aqueous iodine, IO3 is not biologically avalable... this can be reduced by the enzyme nitrate reductase, however this interferes with the denitrification process..
also the lugols is a concentrate, the 500 my bottle actually will produce at least 2 litres of working strength lugols...
the best way to supplement iodine to your reef is actually a potassium iodide soultion
HTH
Reef bloke
26-10-06, 20:11
O well the stripping has started again,i am dosing what Kent suggests although when the stripping originally started i was overdosing slightly so ill try that again.Bugger! lol
MaidstoneMarine
26-10-06, 20:45
O well the stripping has started again,i am dosing what Kent suggests although when the stripping originally started i was overdosing slightly so ill try that again.Bugger! lol
Nooooo......
Reef bloke
26-10-06, 21:39
At least a can rule the XM lamps out as i quite liked em.I'm starting to wonder if this is bacterial or viral now.
SPS Hoover
26-10-06, 21:41
Tony Pm me your address i'll send you some aqueous iodine
Reef bloke
26-10-06, 21:49
Cheers Simon,pm sent.
Tony
Add ozone, this will help 'scrub' the water - might be a pathogen? Just a guess?
Dam,,, I thought you had this licked! Sorry to hear it's returned :(
SPS Hoover
27-10-06, 14:34
Tony its in post hopefully you will get it tomorrow if 1st Class is still a 1st class service
Reef bloke
27-10-06, 18:06
Nice one Simon,fingers crossed.Ill update the thread if and when i see any change.
Regards and thanks Tony
Reef bloke
28-10-06, 13:22
Aqueous Iodine received this morning with thanks Simon.I will update my progress as and when anything occurs although i have spotted two patches of die back mid way down two corals today.The two corals effected are a branching Acropora and a Montipora Digitata.
Reef bloke
28-10-06, 22:12
Ah well the RTN has started,one Acro almost gone and a Monti digi looking to go the same way.Both corals still polyping out have great colour but they are just loosing flesh from the mid section out towards the tips and base.Thinking of stripping her down now and maybe starting a fresh as theres something going on i just cant quantify.I can put the new one piece foot on the stand while I'm about it i suppose.:(
Thanks for everyones help.Tony
As far as i know the Aqueous iodine (thornton and Ross) sold in Chemists is the same as Lugol`s solution.
Both appear to be a blend of Iodine and potassium Iodide, and Simon`s dosage rate is similar to that recommended by Kent on their bottles of Lugols.
My local chemist isable to get it to order for just over £3 for 100ml.
I plan to dose at 1 drop (0.05ml) per week unless I notice any detrimental effects (that is in 30 gallons).
As for testing, I found the Salifert kit a nightmare to interpret and use. There was so little difference in the colours on the colour card that i felt it almost worthless.
HTH
Danny
Reef bloke
31-10-06, 21:55
Right another update,ditched the idea of a strip down for now,mucho hard work.I am now in the middle of doin large water changes,taking out a few softies as a few were being stung by lps(chem warfare) plus keeping up the iodine regime.Im also gonna reduce my fish stock.Ill see what this brings.
Wish me luck peeps!
Good luck Tony, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of this, whatever it is.
It's got to be a better idea than the stripdown :)
ATB
Reef bloke
31-10-06, 22:13
Cheers Chris,plus the strip down was a bit of a cop out,i bloody hate mysteries.Thanks for your support mate.
Cheers Paul,hope all is going well with you,ill have to nip up at some point,ive got to get over to Steves too.
Tony
Reef bloke
01-11-06, 18:03
Cheers Tone
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