View Full Version : sick fish urgent
quebee2006
13-10-06, 10:08
bought a royal gramma 3 days ago and he is not doing to well. he is still managing to swim but is lying on his side kind of gasping for air at times.
is there anything i can do.
instantsquid
13-10-06, 10:10
As usual, can you tell us a bit about your setup - length of time established, filtration, water movement, and so on. Also, was the fish okay when first introduced? How did you acclimatise it? Presumably it was healthy when in the shop?
- Ian
quebee2006
13-10-06, 10:14
As usual, can you tell us a bit about your setup - length of time established, filtration, water movement, and so on. Also, was the fish okay when first introduced? How did you acclimatise it? Presumably it was healthy when in the shop?
- Ian
been up and running for a month or 2. filter has rowaphos, 2poly filters and floss in it. 2 seio 620's and v2 400 skim.
he has been fine since i got him and all my test are fine. however could it be stress as i have rearranging the tank lately. think am gonae keep my fingers out. did add 2 corals 2 though could this be it.
would a water change be any good.
OK given the issues with the citrus goby I'm swinging towards marine white spot or Amyloodinium (marine velvet).
So is the Gramma covered in a very fine white grey/gold film or fine spots?
what has happened to the citrus goby? has it got worst or better
You say fine since you go him, but he's only been in 3 days. Did you get him from the same LFS as the citrus goby?
quebee2006
13-10-06, 11:10
OK given the issues with the citrus goby I'm swinging towards marine white spot or Amyloodinium (marine velvet).
So is the Gramma covered in a very fine white grey/gold film or fine spots?
what has happened to the citrus goby? has it got worst or better
You say fine since you go him, but he's only been in 3 days. Did you get him from the same LFS as the citrus goby?
no goby is fine and has not got any worse, grama has no white spot on him at all and i got them from different shops.
have change the water as i was not sure about my ammonia it might have been reading 0.25ppm or under. me n the wife were debating the colours. i said it was 0ppm and she said 0.25 this will probably be cause i have moved the rock in the last 2 days.
Yep I'd go with the ammonia too
You have velvet by the sounds of things. Add an airstone asap to aid breathing the parasite attacks the gills. Dusty spots/ heavy breathing slight texture is oodinium, whitespot is more salt coating.
You really need to take all fish out and place in a seperate tank with same water, basic filter. Try and oxygenate water as much as possible to aid recovery. Take down sg over a few days, instead of using energy to expell salt fish will use said energy to fight infection. Use a copper safe treatment asap, worked fine on my sick gramma. It will die unless you quarantine asap.
You have velvet by the sounds of things. Add an airstone asap to aid breathing the parasite attacks the gills. Dusty spots/ heavy breathing slight texture is oodinium, whitespot is more salt coating.
You really need to take all fish out and place in a seperate tank with same water, basic filter. Try and oxygenate water as much as possible to aid recovery. Take down sg over a few days, instead of using energy to expell salt fish will use said energy to fight infection. Use a copper safe treatment asap, worked fine on my sick gramma. It will die unless you quarantine asap.
No I don't think it is Marine velvet (Amyyloodinium) if the ammonia is 0.25 ppm then that will cause problem with the gramma. Especially as the tank is only been running for four weeks it contains at least 5 fish (2 chromis, 1 clown 1 gramma and 1 citron goby). I think it just too many fish too fast.
As for the reduction in sg to assist in fighting infection I'd like to see the original source of that information. Because it isn't a recognised treatment for marine velvet, nor is it a shown to reduce the energy expenditure of stenohaline marine fish (instead they produce a more dilute urine, which is just as energetically expensive as secreting salt.)
Wombat your wrong:
Hyposalinity assists marine teleost fish in recovery five ways:
* Helps control external parasites
* Helps fish to recover osmotic balance more quickly
* Helps fish that are injured or have lost mucus protection to maintain osmoregulatory balance.
* Conserves energy that can be used to recover normal homeostasis and for disease resistance
* Helps fish to recover feeding behaviors more quickly
Contrary to the commonly held belief that a salinity lower than natural seawater is stressful to marine teleost fish (bony reef fish), reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance (Wedemeyer, 1996. Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to matching the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment.
I suggest placing marine teleost fish directly into a hyposaline environment during the acclimation and quarantine period (Lowry, 2004). A salinity of 12ppt (not Specific Gravity) is close to isotonic for bony reef fish. I prefer keeping the salinity at 12 to 14ppt for thirty days or more. The salinity can then be raised a few points a day until it is close to natural seawater, or matches your display aquarium.
Although studies indicate that at least some species of marine teleost fish grow faster in a salinity of 14ppt than at 35ppt (natural seawater) (Lambert, Dutil, and Munro, 1994), I do not suggest maintaining hyposaline conditions indefinitely. Do not subject marine invertebrates, sharks, rayfish, "live rock," or "live sand" to hyposaline conditions.
for the full article go to:http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/3/aafeature1
I have had any number of sick fish over the years commonly on first purchase from a local lfs. I have treated all these fish that have had parasites i.e white spot using a mixture of low sg i.e. 1.17 to 1.20 and a low dose of copper safe
0.3 ppm and a good oxygen supply. I have followed this course to around 10 days and never lost a fish with infection i.e. oodinium, white spot broch. Feeding often is also a must, they must eat to survive its important to try many different food to get them to eat.
I have also dipped fish durring this process in ph/temp adjusted fresh water.
Some of the healthiest fish you will see are present at Maidenhead aquatics there sg is 1.17 on non red sea fish. A UV will also help prevent disease.
They are not sure about the ammonia. Quarantine the fish in a small tank with a simple filter and heater, use same water from tank perhaps slightly lower the sg using a small amount of fresh ro water do the same every 24 hrs untill around 1.17sg. Make sure there is plenty of oxygen in tank using an airstone or power head if tank is big enough. A power head in a small tank may cause stress.
Add some copper safe(a complex copper bonded to an organic is best) to 0.3ppm (follow manufacturers instructions) and check again in 24 hrs I think you will find fish are much better within a 12 hour period. FOllow this course for 10 days and remove with carbon. Gradually increase sg to normal levels.
Interesting how do you know I am wrong based on one web article entitled "Updating Marine Teleost Fish Acclimation Procedures:"?
Are you saying ammonia isn’t toxic to fish any more?
As for the cited literature you cite none of it deals with the treatment you suggest, I have just read the following articles that you use to support your hypothesis
Wedemeyer, G.A. "Handling and Transportation of Salmoniods," Principals of Salmoniod Aquaculture. Pennel, W. & Barton, B., eds., Elsevier Publishing, Netherlands, 1996
A paper about the transfer of Atlantic salmon smolts from fresh to sea water, A unique physiological event not related to acclimation of reef fish
Carmicheal, G.J. Tomasso, J.R. Simco, B.A. & Davis, K.B. "Characterization and Alleviation of Stress Associated with Hauling Largemouth Bass." Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, 113, 778-785, 1984.
Again a paper associated with transporting a eurohaline fish and stress measurements, nothing on acclimating reef fish (or large mouthed sea bass for that matter)
Lowry, T. "Quarantine of Marine Teleost Fish Using Hyposalinity." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, Nov, 2004.
Not a peer reviewed scientific paper, but clearly dealing with quarantine issues c.f. white spot treatments
Lambert, Y. Dutil, J-D & Munro, J. "Effects of intermediate and low salinity conditions on growth rate and food conversion of Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)."
Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences [CAN. J. FISH. AQUAT. SCI.]. Vol. 51, no. 7, pp. 1569-1576. 1994
A paper on growth rate and food conversion in Atlantic cod again nothing on improved fish health
As for your method it is interesting that you state
“I prefer keeping the salinity at 12 to 14ppt for thirty days or more”
Which I agree is pretty close to 300 milliosmol/l (about an SG 1.010 @25oC) and then go on to state
“that using a mixture of low sg i.e. 1.17 to 1.20 and a low dose of copper safe 0.3 ppm and a good oxygen supply. I have followed this course to around 10 days and never lost a fish with infection”
Assuming you actually mean SGs of 1.017 to 1.020 rather that 1.17-1.20 (sg’s closer to the salinity of the dead sea and considerable higher than is desirable in a reef tank) the values you use are closer to 600-700 milli/osmols, around 26 ppt or twice the isotonic tissue levels of bony marine fish. I would respectfully suggest your success in treating these fish comes from your use of copper rather than hyposalinity.
Keeping marine fish in very low salinities for prolonged periods is not ideal. I could point you the work of Ellis who has shown increased disease susceptibility under such conditions and the work of Potts et al (I know Potts well he was my PhD supervisor many years ago) who have shown tissue oedema, abnormal kidney function and osmoregualtiory failure in marine fish kept under isotonic and hyposaline conditions. Sure fish can tolerate 1.010 for some time before succumbing. That is the basis for hyposalinity treatments for white spot the parasite dies before the host. But it is not ideal. It certainly doesn’t reduce energy demand as kidney function increases to get rid of the excess water taken in as the animal drinks. Energy budgets for animals under such condition tend to be higher and that is indicated in Lambert et al (1994) cited above
You quote the example of a LFS that keep their stock at sg's around 1.017 yes I agree many do. but this tends to be done for two reasons
1 it will remove some ectoparasites
2 it is cheaper as less salt will be sold with the water the fish are in reducing overheads
The problem in this tank is two fold the Citron goby has white spot (I agree that, that animals (and it’s tank mates) should be taken out and treated in a QT aquarium) and a royal gramma that has no spots or velvety sheen that is acutely ill. Given Queenbee have, what they think is an ammonium spike, (given the tank is 4 weeks only and already has 5 fish in it) I suggest this spike is due to the living rock filtration capacity being exceeded by the fish biomass. I think that solving those issues would be more successfully that trying to make the fish isotonic and adding more stress (both to the owners and the fish) in a difficult situation.
quebee2006
14-10-06, 17:16
well goby still has white spot but is showing no signs of being unwell, quite the opoosite. royal grama is swimming about ok and is eating. when grama swims he is at a slight tilt and he does on occasion, in the morning, sit in between the rocks and open his mouth like he is yawning.
tested ammonia again today and it was def at oppm. wife agree's to. am no gonae feed them tonight and give the tank a chance to catch up.
the tank has been set up for more than 4 weeks. in fairness not much more maybe 2 months at the very most.
i am more inclined to think the ammonia spike came from me moving the live rock about.
changed the water yesterday and that certanly helped the royal grama.
i do not have a qt so cannot remove him from the main tank.
I agree ammonia spike will cause the gramma's symptoms.
Sorry I misread you earlier post I thought you said the tank was a month old rather than a month or too. But I would suggest you slowed down on stocking a bit, because the tank is young and the filtration not full matured there is the possibility you could overload the biofilters and get another ammonia spike.
I would also suggest you keep an eye on that citron goby. If it is white spot it will spread and untreated it could easily be fatal to the occupants of the tank.
quebee2006
14-10-06, 17:47
just noticed that ma royal grama's tail has split in places, any idea's. tail looks a bit ragidy.
whats the sg at the moment. Add an airstone and lower sg if I were you.
All living things need plenty of oxygen, and fish use alot of energy ridding themselves of salt = lower salt saves energy and aids recovery.
quebee2006
14-10-06, 19:54
my sg is 1.025 what should i take it down to.
quebee2006
14-10-06, 19:55
my skimmer is producing air and i have my filter breaking the water surface. do you still think i need more.
any advice would be good as i do not wish to lose this or any fish
No I think your aeration and salinity is fine.
I've Pm'ed you re the gramma's tail
All living things need plenty of oxygen,
except anaerobic bacteria, yeast while they are fermenting, Giadia Sp etc
have you got a reef aquarium with corals and inverts?
quebee2006
15-10-06, 18:31
eye
you could maybe lower to 1.22 slowly over a few days it may help. If breathing is rapid and the fish have a dusty velvet sheen and are creating excess mucas and or hovering around top of tank i.e. looking for air I would defo quarantine,
you could maybe lower to 1.22 slowly over a few days it may help.
Err 1.22 is ten times the Sg of seawater (normally range 1.020-1.027) are you sure that is what you want to suggest?
sorry wombat I mean 1.022
quebee2006
16-10-06, 17:41
grama has now resorted to rubbing himself against my rock. on one side he has got some marks where he has rubbed himself. could he have mites or something else.
Humm possibly Amyloodinium (Marine velvet) is there a very faint grey/gold (the colour of white pepper) sheen on the fish at all?
Also are you sure the white spot hasn't spread from the citron goby?
you have itch either whitespot or oodinium no matter.
Treat the fish in a quarantine tank with copper safe or cupramine or they will die. leave your reef dormant for 4-6 weeks while fish get better follow remedy instructions to the letter.
Just get a small tank add a simple filter/heater with water fom mani aquarium and treat. A pain yes, hard work yes but if you love your fish it will not matter;)
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