View Full Version : what happens- whitespot
quebee2006
28-10-06, 17:27
what happens when a fish gets white spot, how long can they have it for, will they get better, why does some fish catch it and others in the same tank dont, why does it seem to get bad and then other times better but never quite go's away.
i have a hundred and 1 questions. tried doing a search but cant really come up with the right info.
goby has had it for ages now, there was a time when i thought thats it he's a goner but no he's still hangin on. white spots seems to go through phases of being really predominant and then other times its like its hardly there.
but there is always the tiny little spots on the tail and fins and sometimes seeping from his body. grama has it to but no other fish seem to be affected.
whitespot is caused by many factors, a new fish is put in the tank and is stressed and then it spreads to other, one fish is being bulled and gets it then it spreads.
Do you have a UV on your system?
You can get reef safe odenex (I think thats how its spelt), this you add over three days, i have tried this myself and yes sometime it works and other times it doesnt but if you have corals make sure you get the reef safe version or your corals will die.
It gos in cycles over a period of time and when you one day look at the fish you think its gone, this is where the parasites drop off then a few days later they have multiplied and come back twice as bad as last time.
You really need to get rid and find out the cause if you can.
Good luck
quebee2006
29-10-06, 10:22
i've treated twice with oodinex and it doesn't have any effect on it. am at a loss as what to do about it. goby has had it for a few weeks now.
chrisgregg
29-10-06, 10:30
i have used oodinex in the past and it doesnt work, neither does kent marine rxp. I have founds that myxasin from waterlife works though i had it bad on a few tangs and my puffer a while ago i though my yellow tang was going to die he was that bad and i mean relly itching and covered all over in white spots... But because i had corals and inverts i was in a pickle. So i got some myxasin by waterlife it is reef safe but not with clams as i have been told, raised temp to 27.5... (people say dont do this because it speeds up there process but im just letting you no my way that worked for me) and dosed the correct amount for the amount of gallons every 12hrs it took about a week to go my tank looked abit green from it but it worked ... Plus i made the mistake of buying loads of small bottles 4 pounds each costing me loads.. you are better getting a trade bottle 16pounds you will have to ask for them to order it for you all depends where you go... and the size of you tank
chrisgregg
29-10-06, 10:34
as for the spots white spots are there in the day but they drop off thats when you think it has gone then the next day your tank will be full of it more because they drop off onto your sandbead releasing 1000s more into the water.... Im telling you a way you might understand other will no more about it the scientific way but thats when it gets complicated
ask wombat he no's his stuff about true white spot and he might be able to help you more
White spot/marine itch is often refered to in relation to two fish parasites/diseases cryptocaryon irritans and oodinium. It is brought into the tank commonly by
fish.
First you have to decide what disease your fish have. The crypto form has more defined whitespots like a sugar coating that is very pronounced. Odinium is more of a dusty coating sometimes associated with rapid breathing and mucas fish also may have golden tint. In both diseases fish may flick themselves on rocks and even bite the glass.
Now I quarantine all my fish in a seperate tank before I buy, if they then show signs of either disease I treat with a low dose of copper and usually give a meth blue dip in tem and ph adjusted water. I have always managed to get rid of any disease on fish using this method, usually with a copper treatment the crypto parasites fall of the fish within 48hrs. This coupled with good feeding, I have 10 different types of food to get new fish eating and get them nice and fat.
Also I have a UV on my system now fish seem much brighter and more hungry for some reason.
Some good articles:http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Parasites are less likely found in LFS with lower SG's maidenhead aquatics run all there fish tanks at 1.017 apart from there reef tanks, personally compared to my local LFS there fish seem much healthier and if you don't run a quarantine tank or hospital I know where I'd be buying my fish.
chrisgregg
29-10-06, 10:52
forgot to add im running ozone 20mg on my tank this might have helped as well, so you will need some sort off help uv is good but will never beat ozone but ozone very dangerous to live stock so you are better off with uv for now
quebee2006
29-10-06, 10:57
might try myaxin today then. uda do it so a mite pop up and see. thanks for your help.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 10:58
is it possible if i just leave it to run its course that the goby might recover.
PLEASE READ:http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
in my experience it just gets worse till the fish dies.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 14:01
it seems its not whitespot after all. spoke to uda and he said it wasnt. i was told it was some other parasite (forgot the name) and my best option was to give the goby a fresh dip.:confused:
FAO: Arrows its best to quarantine and use copper before it dies they get better quicker than you might think
fresh dip for 3 mins adjust ph and temp accordingly. Use meth blue very good and oxygenate treatment bag untill fish enters, it will cause you more stress than the fish
instantsquid
29-10-06, 17:58
Did your LFS say it was Amyloodinium? Or Brookynella?
quebee2006
29-10-06, 19:08
really cant mind what he said. he oodinex is the best stuff i could use if i had inverts. i told him i used it twice and all that happened was my cleaner shrimp died. i was told the best bet would be to catch the fish and fresh dip it. i have a ph buffer to adjust ph.
any suggestions on how to catch a fish without tearing all my rock apart????:(
everyone says do a fresh water dip but it can not be just dip it in what do you need to do?
quebee2006
29-10-06, 19:15
well was told to add the ph buffer adjust temp and that was it.
will you beleive i just caught him no bother. canae beleive it.
i'll gie him 5 mins then add him back to tank eh.
so add ro water, a bit of ph buffer leave 5 minutes then back in tank?
quebee2006
29-10-06, 19:22
eye, as long as the ph is the same as the tank and the temp then give it 5mins then add him back.
i just put him back in, thought i may have killed him as he wasn't moving but he has got his strenght back. he's a bit stressed.
just the royal grama to catch now. it must no cause its the only fish thats hiding.:mad:
Usually I dip for 3 mins, 5 maybe a bit long but not unheard of.
can you keep me posted on this one mate.
aerate the water bag if you have an airstone also help dissolve buffer, shake bag pre dip.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 19:34
ye will do.
he's lying at the bottom of the tank just now probably in shock. it was a bit of a rush as he was sitting on the glass at the top of the tank and i think this is the only reason why i caught him.
i used a water bucket to dip him in and added a power head to mix the buffer in. there was still a small bit of powder at the bottom, not much though.
instantsquid
29-10-06, 19:36
I'm slightly concerned that these fish are being "freshwater dipped" when an accurate diagnosis of the disease has not yet been achieved.
FWIW, a freshwater dip will do nothing for Whitespot (Cryptocaryon irritans) however it can give temporary relief to fish with Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). However, unless the whole tank has also been treated you are simply adding the fish back into an infected environment, except now it is even further stressed.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 20:21
good point but i'm only trying to do my best for the fish. i have no qt tank so am at a loss for what else i can do.:(
quebee2006
29-10-06, 20:23
i'll try and get a close photo of him and maybe someone can help although even if you lot do come up with a diagnosis doubt there would be ,cuh else i could do for the wee fellow.
We all try our best but a photo would help you as the many experts on here will tell you exactly what to do.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 20:41
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC00292.JPG
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC00293.JPG
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/goby.JPG
well there you are, all help welcome
certainly looks like whitespot to me, but others may have a different opion.
quebee2006
29-10-06, 20:48
me too, that white stuff can seep from his body at times also.
that must really hurt them wouldn't you say.
I'd defo say get a small tank with a simple filter and heater, doesen't have to be expensive. use water from main tank lower sg slowly and aerate.
Then use a copper safe remedy i.e. aquarium systems brand or seachem cupramine. Place all fish in there leave main tank dormant for 4-6 weeks, add a UV to main change water, vac sand, turn temp on main tank up.
I have never used freshwater only, always with a drop of meth blue. I think its pointless adding the fish back into the main system following a dip, the dip will get rid of some parasites but then maybe attract more unless fish is moved.
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING LOOKS LIKE CRYPTO/ITCH/WHITESPOT:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
Move the fish into a cheap tank with a simple filte, heater, water from main tank and a copper based medication i.e. copper safe aquarium systems, cupramine seachem. A fresh water dip might help with a drop of meth dip but its best to move. MOVE OR THE FISH WILL DIE
just a quote from another thread here on UR re duration of marine white spot
according to Yambot AV (http://apps.isiknowledge.com/WoS/CIW.cgi?SID=Z4kdgPgLKJoPDc5d16o&Func=OneClickSearch&field=AU&val=Yambot+AV&curr_doc=2/2&Form=FullRecordPage&doc=2/2), Song YL (http://apps.isiknowledge.com/WoS/CIW.cgi?SID=Z4kdgPgLKJoPDc5d16o&Func=OneClickSearch&field=AU&val=Song+YL&curr_doc=2/2&Form=FullRecordPage&doc=2/2) in their paper "Short term in vitro culture of Cryptocaryon irritans, a protozoan parasite of marine fishes"
at 23oC the parasite's theronts (the infectious stage) most tomites only survive for around 24 hours but some could survive for 4-7 days, I cannot find any data on cyst (tormont) survival so far (but there is a paper by R Wootten back in 1978 which deals with that just WOS stops around 1986 and the library is a long walk form here;) )
remember that is just the theronts from one cyst and there will be many many cysts from one infected fish that will hatch over quite a long period
&
Colomi (1987) gives it as a mean of 6-7 days (max 35 days) for the tomite so adding it all together at full maximum survival time for each stage the life cycle would take 47 days from infection to all the offspring dying.
But with most biological systems the standard safety margin is the maximum life cycle + 50%. So then I'd guess a maximum quarantine time would be 47 + 23.5 = 70.5 days or 10 weeks 1 day
quebee2006
30-10-06, 16:00
am having probs with my broadband connection. i have left several messages but see none of them are listed.
anyway i'll make it quick. a qt is out of the question- no money.
he seems fine at the moment and looks a bit brighter.
everyone seems to have a different answer to white spot so am guessing no one actually no's the best way to treat it.
i do beleive copper treatment is the best but ssen as i dont have a qt tank then i am at a loss. i will treat again in a week or so with esha oodinex see if it works this time. does have some effect just not sure how much.
Copper is the only way to shift it (but not in a reef tank), I don't think oodinex will touch it. Your best bet is to lower SG to a point safe enough for your reef 1.21? My turbo's, hermits are ok at 1.20 but must be done slowly, I have no corals so I can't speak for safe sg levels. Lower SG = lower number of parasites.
Run the UV, good water, plenty of food, maybe an airstone. I also think removing the sand will help. Good luck, sorry you can't get a hospital tank my local rubbish tip had 2 the other day.
You are right copper is best, but quinine and fusidic acid can also be used (and are reef safe) but you would need to get the latter from your vets.
Your UV will help tremondously, removing the sand will be a disaster all that debris being raised and you run the risk of an ammonia spike.
In the photos the fish isn't suffering from a heavy infection of white spot. I would be tempted to treat conservatively with a reef safe treatment (possibly completing 2 or three full treatemnts) and UV and wait and see.
quebee2006
30-10-06, 21:14
thanks wombat. your the only person to come up with something else i can do thats reasonable. no downing other people for trying to help but ur suggestion i can do.
funny i am at the vets tomorrow anyway with my african grey who isnt well- you dont know anything about parrots do you:)
getting rid of the sand will help if done slowly
good point, i had white spot before and found the sand was coarse, some one else said take the sand out and it did the job,.
It seems to me alot of parasites live in sand/substrate. I have added a UV now fed up of outbreaks and fish seem much brighter and eat more.
indeed some parasites have a life cycle that requires a substrate (C. irritans marine white spot is one of them) but not that many require a substrate. Most parasites have direct life cycles going from fish to fish such as parasitic sea lice Gyrodactylus etc or indirect life cycles that use other animals as an intermediate host such as cryptocotyle (black spot) that uses gastropods.
Removing the substrate from an establish tank is tricky, you will stress the fish, run the risk of putting a lot of organic debris into the water column and the additional organic load from this can cause an ammonia spike. Given any substrate will do for marine white spot to develop on indeed living rock, as far as the parasite is concerned, works just as well as somewhere for the tomonts to develop. I would advise that the substrate is not removed (assuming that this is what you want to do as many critters will be removed in the process that mandarins, scooters, small wrasse etc can feed on) while the fish are ill as this will stress them further. Instead wait until they have recovered before this is attempted.
Are you going to ask your vet about quinine and fusidic acid?
mysticwave_2
31-10-06, 17:02
Our Coral gobies get it all the time. They are quite hardy and the whitespot tends to go away after a while. Then they will get it again, but survive.
They have it quite bad at the moment, but am just going to let it run it's course.
As long as it is feeding I would leave it be as IME it will recover.
Jim
chrisgregg
31-10-06, 21:52
did you try some myxasin by water life looks the same as what i had and i managed to get rid just takes time
quebee2006
01-11-06, 10:55
i was advised by the lfs that esha oodinex was stronger. going to see a vet next week when he returns from his hols.
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