View Full Version : Obi the Burrfish and white spots
Hi,
Our Obiculate Burrfish has caught something like white spot.
He is in a tank on his own and was clear at dinner time. We discovered it when we were feeding him so he is still eating and acting completely normally.
I know puffers are sensitive to Copper so that’s out. I am going to lowering the SG but I don’t think I will raise the temperature until I can put some sort of treatment in there.
I have also switched the lights off.
I do have a UV filter I could put on but again don’t know if that will help or affect puffers.
I have been reading the other thread but I know puffers can be sensitive to somethings.
there is a good page here http://www.cowfishes.com/ich.html but the treatments are American and I cant find equivalent in the uk.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks
Gareth
Ive taken a photo just going to figure out how to put it here.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC02322.gif
A freshwater dip with meth blue might help. Although should be moved to a seperate aquarium with a suitable medication: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
DOn't add copper to your reef. Place in hospital tank with simple filter/heater, water from main aquarium. Use a low dose of copper safe i.e. aqua medic brand,
copper safe or cupramine. He will get better in a few days, also add air stone.
I know with tangs long term copper is supposed to be bad but I have used cupramine with my tangs for around 2 weeks at around 0.4ppm and never had a problem. I also lowered sg gradually to 1.018 save fish save energy. With this fish try above remedy for a few days I think you will se fast result.
Hi,
Obi is not in our reef tank, he is already on his own otherwise we would not have many fish or inverts! anyway, I am pretty sure that Burrfish/Puffers dont like copper.
I could do a freshwater dip but you also have to be careful with them gulping air.
If I lower the SG, raise the temperture and put a UV on the tank, hover the gravel, leave the light off, will that do it or do I still need some Puffer safe treatment and if so what?
He is in good spirts and acting completely normally eg. Pretends to be a rock unless the light are off or you are feeding him then all of a sudden he becomes the worlds fastest swimmer!
Thanks
Gareth
Tangs are said to be the most sensitive to copper and I have used cupramine and never had a problem its an organic form of copper and far less toxic. I have had 9 fish for over a 2 week period including sensitive Acanthurus tangs eg powder blues/clown tang and never had a problem.
It has got to be said that I also lower sg over a number of days to around 1.018 for this reason see link http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/3/aafeature1/view?searchterm=shipping%20stress
If your that worried try a half dose for 3 days you will see the result quickly and probably kill the parasite, remove with water changes and carbon. Reef safe stuff is a waste of time. A 0.4 ppm dose over that short a period i.e. 72 hrs wouldn't do any harm fish can tolerate copper upto 0.8 ppm recommended is 0.5ppm for 2 weeks. If using a freshwater dip add a drop of meth blue.
check out the seachem website they list other non copper remedies to remove parasitic infection such as whitespot:www.seachem.com/products/medications.html
Thanks Horse,
Will see if I can pick it up tonight. Im not sure where he picked it up from. The Water parameters are spot on apart from the SG may have been a little high. We were away last week but my parents came across to feed him but he is quite moody and I think he might have been a little stressed. Also I know what I left them to feed him, what I dont know is what they feed them!
in a nutshell
yes copper is the best treatment
UV can be beneficial and will not harm the fish
Don't raise the temperature this is not appropriate for marine white spot it just leads to faster generation times and more parasite in a given time period.
The parasite was probably induced with new stock
Copper levels of 0.8ppm will kill many delicate fish and 0.15-0.3 would be the range I would aim for. TO be sure I would invest in a copper test kit and ensure that the level does not exceed 0.3ppm
Only use seachem test if using seachem copper or red sea, salifert can't detect complex coppers
in a nutshell
yes copper is the best treatment
UV can be beneficial and will not harm the fish
Don't raise the temperature this is not appropriate for marine white spot it just leads to faster generation times and more parasite in a given time period.
The parasite was probably induced with new stock
Copper levels of 0.8ppm will kill many delicate fish and 0.15-0.3 would be the range I would aim for. TO be sure I would invest in a copper test kit and ensure that the level does not exceed 0.3ppm
Hi Dr Bee,
From research, the reason for raising the temperture is for two reasons.
The ich cyst has a limited time to find a host, if you increase the temperture then the time is shorten considerably. By turning the lights off, hoovering the gravel, some kind of treatment to the tank leads to shorter infection times.
Also Higher metabolism in fish adds a slight boost to their immune systems so they can fight the parasite off a little easier.
Do you not agree with this?
Hi Horse
Im having a little trouble locating some Cupramine around here at the moment. One shop had advised RXP but said it will take longer to work.
Thanks
Gareth
try ebay they have a bottle for 12.99. My LFS sells it for 4.99 for a small bottle, let me know and I will get u some if you paypal me. Also maybe try seacure from aquarium systems they make good quality sale i.e. reef crytals. Or aqua medic medications for whitespot
Hi Dr Bee,
From research, the reason for raising the temperture is for two reasons.
The ich cyst has a limited time to find a host, if you increase the temperature then the time is shorten considerably. By turning the lights off, hoovering the gravel, some kind of treatment to the tank leads to shorter infection times.
Also Higher metabolism in fish adds a slight boost to their immune systems so they can fight the parasite off a little easier.
Do you not agree with this?
Hi Jonsey
I don't agree: J if you search for “Ich cyst” on, say, google you get a lot of advice on freshwater white spot where raising the temperature can be beneficial and this is a common point of confusion between freshwater and marine white spot, which are caused by two very different ciliate parasites. IMHE raising the temperature speeds up the life cycle considerable and as these parasites are very effective at host finding (some research papers suggest a 30% success rate for the tomite) then there is a considerable risk that at higher temps in marine aquariums the parasite can get out of hand very quickly. In addition marine white spot tends to infect at night (so light off helps the parasite find its host).
However, hovering the bottom to remove tomonts will help and providing the temp increase does not exceed the upper thermal limit for the fish yes the immune system will work more effectively.
But overall the benefits of an increased temperature are outweighed by the risk of the outbreak going “nuclear” more quickly at the higher temperature.
Dr Bee,
Its all very interesting and confusing. I understand what you are say and a lot makes sense and agrees with my thought process, however
I started this thread by including a link to a website which specialises in marine cowfish and its their page i have got most of the info from.
http://www.cowfishes.com/ich.html
many moons ago I worked in an aquatic shop and have dealt with freshwater white spot many times, never a problem. I know the two are different but never had any issues with my marines.
Its just in one hand I have one set of answers in the other a completely different set!
Gareth
Horse, thanks for the offer. I have some copper and test kit etc so I think I will use that, think.......
Hi,
I've just had a look at that web site it has a few inaccurcies in it
e.g.
Blue text is from the website Black text is my Answers
The tiny hooks of the parasite that grab onto the fish cause minute tears in the fish skin
As the parasite is a ciliate there are no hooks involved
1. Fish naturally harbour the parasite.
Not true the parasite is an obligate pathogen
2. Poor water quality, sudden tank temperature changes, inadequate nutrition, or fighting with other fish cause stress on fish.
No the parasite has to be present you can have stressed fish and they will not et white spot unless the parasite is in the aquarium system
3. Weakened or stressed fish have low resistance and cannot fight off normal attacks
Not really true, stress in the acute rather than chronic phase often induce improve immunological defences for a shot period
Reduce or completely turn off lighting during treatment.
Free swimming Ich is attracted to light.
The parasite swims up toward the source of light where it expects to find a host.
Lack of lighting makes location of host more difficult for the ich parasite.
Failure to find a host within 24 hours causes the ich cyst to die without reproducing.
Not true marine white spot has been shown to infect its host during periods of darkness what is reproduced here is partly true for freshwater white spot
Slowly elevate tank temperature during treatment.
Heat speeds of metabolic processes.
Higher metabolism in fish add a slight boost to their immune systems so they can fight off the parasite a little easier.
Partly true but the risk is you get more infective stages in a given length of time and hence more parasites replicating on your fish hence he infection can get much worst very quickly.
The website is also plugging two “medications” so cannot be considered unbiased
Well, I have some copper, test kit and poly filter for after but I have not dosed it yet.
The SG was a little high for fish anyway so I have been lowering that as we go. I want to get it to somewhere around .021 anyway.
But he had nothing on him last night at all, not on his fins or anywhere. I know it can live in the sand etc but Im not sure what I saw now.
I will check again, when I get home tonight and then I suspect I will dose with a low level of copper just to make sure.
Thanks for the help. I do think it would be a good idea to have a discussion on, what is the correct treatment for white spot, in reef and fish only systems, to bottom out a "correct" method of treatment. Its not clear cut as it could be. So many conflicting points of view.
Gareth
A decent copper medication will move it, have no fear
Hi,
Just a quick question.
When you have dosed the tank, how quickly should it show up on the test kit?
I am using Pointex by Aquamedic, where you dose 1 3 5 days etc, should the amount of copper in the tank build up gradually eg. you get to the recommended level around day 3 or should you have the correct level from day one and then you maintain it?
Thanks
Gareth
It should show up immediately.
With the regime you suggest it should load to about 0.3ppm decline to around 0.1ppm then your next dose bring it back up to around 0.3ppm again.
Personally I'd go for maintaining the correct dose all the time around 0.15-0.3ppm
Thanks Wombat,
I'll have a look tonight.
I have a salifert test kit and it was not showing up much copper and there weren't any real instructions with the Aqua medic copper, just dose 10ml per 200 litres.
Ive kept marines for quite a few years but up till now, never had a problem with white spot etc so dont really know the dosing systems.
Now if it was freshwater tropicals, It used to be WS3 1 drop per a gallon! I expect they dont even sell it nower days!
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