View Full Version : whitespot!!!
Hi all, noticed today that my regal tangs got whitespot!! Anyone out there got any suggestions on how to treat him? Rest of my fish look fine and the tang is feeding, I was thinking about giving him a fresh water dip? although I don't want stress him out if I can help it. I've got quite alot of coral in there as well so am unsure about using medication?
I wouldn't do anything just yet, Regals are notorious for this.
Could anything be harrassing it, is it a new fish?
I've had him about 6 months and this is the first time he's had whitespot. I haven't noticed any of the other fish bothering him, but I have recently swapped to a bigger tank 20gal to a 70gal.
how recently?
I'd do a water check just to be sure.
just keep him well fed and it should clear up on its own
I swapped tanks 1 month ago, and was planning on going through all my water chemistry tomorrow. As I said before this is the first time he's had whitespot, and I wouldn't want to lose him. Cheers guys!
got a cleaner shrimp or wrase?
instantsquid
04-11-06, 23:28
Has anything new been added to the tank recently? It seems unlikely that if whitespot was already in the tank, that this is the first time it has become visible.
Oh, and a freshwater dip will not eradicate whitespot - it'll just stress the fish out (despite what you may read elsewhere).
- Ian
Rob Martin
05-11-06, 09:22
Agree with Instantsquid,freshwater dips are ineffective & "reef safe" medications are next to useless,try soaking food in garlic & the fish should be able to fight the Ich itself (worked for me)
Rob.
if in a bad way make a hopsital tank and treat with a copper based medication, use water from main tank, simple heater/filter.
Roy@Interfish
05-11-06, 11:40
I should check your nitrates as I have often noticed when people change tanks a lot of nitrate can be released for some reason ( probably by disturbing "dead" areas), and the tang being the type it is will always be the first to show whitespot.
:rolleyes: not always easy for people to do hospitial tanks, need seperate heater ect.
instantsquid
05-11-06, 17:12
:rolleyes: not always easy for people to do hospitial tanks, need seperate heater ect.
Eh? A heater costs a few quid!
Most people simply can't be bothered to set up a hospital tank - it's got nothing to do with cost. They'll happily spend £20, £30 or more on a fish or a coral, but won't divert the funds for one or two purchases to setting up a quarantine or hospital tank. JMHO - I'd like to be wrong, I really would. :)
- Ian
i would like to see one set up for 20 to 30 quid, all i meant was if you do not have the space you can not always do one, i have a very large regal tang it would not just be a case of heres a small tank and in you all go.
i would like to see one set up for 20 to 30 quid, all i meant was if you do not have the space you can not always do one, i have a very large regal tang it would not just be a case of heres a small tank and in you all go.
I set one up for not much more than £30, I got a tank with an air pump for £20 then I just needed a heater and a cheap filter, it didnt come to much more than £30
Yep a quarantine tank is pretty much essential IMHO and it give the opportunity to treat outwith the main tank with copper etc if required.
I'd also agree with the others that freshwater dips are useless in controlling/treating white spot
instantsquid
05-11-06, 19:50
i would like to see one set up for 20 to 30 quid, all i meant was if you do not have the space you can not always do one, i have a very large regal tang it would not just be a case of heres a small tank and in you all go.
If you read my post, I said "won't divert the fund of one or two purchases". But to be honest, that's beside the point - this isn't a cheap hobby. If you need a hospital tank yet can't fund it - you're in the wrong hobby! It's inexcusable to not be able to provide appropriate treatment for the animals in our care.
- Ian
insatant squid, i did not say not to have one i just said i like to see one for my fish size done for 30 quid, if you are going to do it right you need to be looking more at around 100 pounds for the size i needed.
instantsquid
05-11-06, 20:11
As I said in my last post - the cost is actually irrelevant. If someone has chosen to keep an animal in captivity, they are obliged to give it the best care they can. Given the cost of the average reef tank on this site, and it's inhabitants, even £100 is a drop in the ocean (excuse the pun).
- Ian
Hi all, thanks for all the input. I got up this morning and he's looking alittle better, still feeding and not showing any major signs of discomfort so hopefully he'll be ok. As to a few of the responses I've had I don't really see the need to add garlic to his food as this just encourages sick fish to eat there by helping them to help themselves, he's feeding just fine on his own. With regard to a quarantine tank, I have no space for one and up until now haven't needed one. I tested my water this morning and my nitrates are well within normal parameters, I think it could just be a because of the swap.
I think it could just be a because of the swap.
I don't want to be the prophet of doom but if the parasite is really in the tank then it will be back. The good news is White spot is often misdiagnosed.
Personally I'm not even convinced garlic improves a fish's appetite
its best to get the fish to eat it before they get whitespot as it builds there defense against it in the future.
wait a min even with a hospital tank yes you can treat the fish from whitespot but i read that the tank will still need treating unless you take out all fish so it has no host and this should be left empty for at least 10 weeks i might be wrong but treating a fish then putting it back would be wrong too as it will just cacth it again i might be wrong
simon garratt
06-11-06, 08:26
Lets not pull any punches here. Its all well and good preaching what we 'should' be doing. Yes we should all have a seperate quarentine tank, yes we 'should' quarentine all new introductions, yes the shop 'should' quarentine fish, and only sell healthy stock..(going bleary eyed with blissful thoughts)...
Ok, snap back to reality..
90% of peaple dont have the facility/space to set up a 'second' quaretine system (let alone the patience / blessing of the misses)...Secondly you need to quarentine absolutely everything. thats rock, sand samples from fellow keepers for DSB's/future infusions. Corals that come attatched to rock, algae, etc etc. so now your 'basic/cheap' qurentine system has now turned into a full blown second system.
Most shops dont keep invert only systems, they usually have a few grazing fish present, and even if they do, there is allways a regular fransference of substrates (coral base rock etc) that can and will carry a few cysts in from the wild.
Everytime you add any of those things mentioned above, you run the risk of introducing new cysts to the system.
So it begs the question, is all this talk of quarentine systems really worth while unless your going to do it from day one. ie how many people have followed the following which is the only way to 100% guarenteee you have a parasite free system.
Set up tank and leave fallow for 6-8 weeks after the 'last' introduction of any substrate/critters etc from an external source. Then from that point onwards, quarentine every single addition, be it fish, rock, frag, algae, or live sand infusion....? The answer is probably no-one...
WS is a natural parasite, its present in the wild, and even if you 'think' your system is clear of it, chances are your not. Just one on a single fish out of your entire stock can and will keep a background population going in a system for years on a perpetual background cycle.
Fish in the wild live with it on a daily basis without going belly up so its not unreasonable to logically deduce, that if our wild specimins arent falling to it, then there is a reason beyond the presence of the parasite itself.? Ok, we could throw in the argument that populations are more concentrated in a closed system, but then thats just a matter of statitics.
In the real world of reefkeeping, your rarely going to rid, or keep the parasite from the system, (even if you think you have) so your main priority is to provide conditions that are as close to natural as possible so your stock behaves in a manner reminiscent of thier wild cousins. In short, if you cant stick to the guidelines above for whatever reason, then stick to a few simple rules.
1. Read up on which fish are applicable to your system, in terms of space, territory, physical needs, dietary requirements, and aggression. And stock accordingly... most cases of WS outbreaks are due to incorrect stocking proceedures, be it too quick, too much. to big, or simply incompatible.
2. Dont jump before you can walk. 99% of books clearly state that tangs need alot of space, and are suceptable to WS infections in the early stages ranging from average tendancy in Zebrosoma Sp, to nigh on guarenteed with some Acanthurus Sp. Dont add these fish unless you are adding them to a very mature system and they have the space and tankmates present to make them feel imediately at ease.
3. Learn to keep your water quality. A healthy tank, keeps healthy fish, you cant expect good results with poor equipment/management.
4. Dont under estimate the value nor need for food. both in veriety, and quantity.....Look at pictures of wild fish and compare them to your own. Most fish if kept well fed and happy will fight off mild parasite infections if given the chance.
5. Only ever buy visibly healthy and fat stock. Feeling sorry for that poor looking specimin in the shop wont do you or the rest of your stock any favours. It may well be simply a poor or weak specimin from the wild. Have a bash by all means, but not in close proximity to your other stock until you know for a fact, its pulled round in the confines of a seperate system.
In essence, if you cant reasonably expect to beat the parasite (as 99% of keepers cant) then learn how to live with it to some degree of harmony. Its a natural part of keeping marines wether you want to admit it or not.
Panicking about it, and being over zealous in your approaches to iradicate it from an entire system, can be more stressfull and damaging than if youd simply concentrated on getting the 'causes' sorted rather than the symptoms. Fish catch WS for a reason. Its not the fact the parasite is present as allready stated, its becouse there is something wrong with your approach or system that encorages your fish to become more susseptable to it. Solve that, and you and your stock will sleep alot better at night.
Regards
Si.
porky, this is sort of correct, you can not just add the fish back as the whitespot will still be in the tank, you need to leave it a few weeks to be sure that all the diease is gone before re-introducing the fish, the hospitial tank would not be a 5 minute fix.
Set up tank and leave fallow for 6-8 weeks after the 'last' introduction of any substrate/critters etc from an external source. Then from that point onwards, quarentine every single addition, be it fish, rock, frag, algae, or live sand infusion....? The answer is probably no-one...
errr...me. Thats exactly how i have set up my new tank. I have an invert Q tank and a fish Q tank (2ft and 3ft tanks costing £40 for both!)
Nothing wet will ever go in my tank without 6wks in Q.
I appreciate its not easy to do but with more and more posts on peoples remote sumps/sumps in a garage/sumps in a shed.........its not that hard either. Money is a non issue - if you can afford a big tank you can afford a little one as well....and space for remote sumps is not that big a deal either.
Anyway....my point is it can be done quite easily if you dont fancy the idea of white spot (and i hate the smell of garlic!)
So it looks like I'm just going to have to live it. I've kept a reeftank for just over 2 years and this is the first time I've ever had to deal or no deal! with anything like this. I've always found that just keeping water quality spot on is all thats needed to keep livestock in good order, If WS is present within my system then I'm not sure what else I can do other than keep him well fed and stay on top of my parameters? As for my regal he's still feeding and looks to be clearing up, rest of my fish are all fine
simon garratt
06-11-06, 10:30
I have an invert Q tank and a fish Q tank (2ft and 3ft tanks costing £40 for both!)
But thats it Tiggsey, they dont cost you £40, If your going to follow the rules, what are you going to do with a £100 prized Acro thats sitting on its own rock? are you going to dump it in a quarentine tank for 6 weeks under a couple of t5's?....
Following the 'rules' you would need a full blown Halide set-up with a whole host of kit to keep that quarentine tank to a suitable standard to house such stock.
Fair do's if you have the space/money to do it. (and i applaud it) but lets not kid ourselves. Remote sumps and garages are not the norm by any degree whatsoever. and even if you do have it, the chances are you will slip up at some time. (use the same net, peice of pipe, jug, or your hand in both systems) and all that hard work is for nothing.
Im not saying its a waste of time/money by any means if you can manage it religeously.
Im just saying lets be realistic in the advice we are giving here....shops dont advise quarentine........ 99.9% of keepers have allready set up the tank and have fish in it by the time they come here,(or get a problem) so instead of preaching what 'should' be done, after the horse has bolted. people should be realistic in giving advice to people that allready have a system up and running.
A little less radical talk on trying to rid a system completely of it, (all this persistant hyposalinity/chemical cures for the whole tank bumph, and arguments over what is or isnt pear reveiwed research) and a bit more 'real world' basic advice how to 'control' it at the source and get your tank/stock and husbandry methods honed to start with, so that an existing (and likely) population is no longer a threat and is under control from the off..
As ive said before, WS shouldnt be your biggest fear in a reeftank and it shouldnt dictate your every move.....If you do the research on your charges and reefing methods first, then WS shouldnt be a problem even if you do get a minor outbreak. If it is, then theres something wrong in your system, your methods or your choice/timing of stock.
Regards
Si.
all this points to being carefull with what you buy and how you introduce it to your tank, you could have a seperate tank, sit your fish in there for 6 weeks no problem, add it to the main tank, it gets chassed around by your other tank mates, gets stressed then gets whitespot, no matter what you do this does and can happen, all you can do is try to make this not happen and buy the correct tank mate at the correct time.
simon garratt
06-11-06, 10:42
So it looks like I'm just going to have to live it. I've kept a reeftank for just over 2 years and this is the first time I've ever had to deal or no deal! with anything like this. I've always found that just keeping water quality spot on is all thats needed to keep livestock in good order, If WS is present within my system then I'm not sure what else I can do other than keep him well fed and stay on top of my parameters? As for my regal he's still feeding and looks to be clearing up, rest of my fish are all fine
Thats probably the most sensible thing to do all things considerd.imo
Ill lay odds on the fact (as allready stated) that you have allways had a background population, and the move/stress had caused a lowering of the fishes imune system and an increased susseptability to the presence of the pathogen.
Now you know its there, youve learnt a valuable lesson and one that will stick with you..
Large changes or stripdowns upset the balance of the tank and upset the fish....Stability is the key to a succesfull reef. not just chemistry, but also the mental health of the stock. This also applies to any further additions you make, in that you should research them thoroughly before attemting them and weigh up what effect they are 'likely' to have on your existing stock.
You could quarentine all new additions, but that wont be any use if your existing fish are stressed with the new introduction once you do add it, as the parasite is allready there. All you can do is think about the least stressfull methods of introduction and steer clear of obviously dodgy mixes that arnt natural anyway.
regards and best of luck with your tang.
Si.
PS: personnaly ive found garlic to be a superb appetite inducer. both my tangs and anthias (odd things that they are) have allways responded much more vigorously and enthusiastticly to food soaked in Garlic in the past. and i consider it a very usefull (occasional) tool in getting food into fish that are feeling slightly under the wether..
But thats it Tiggsey, they dont cost you £40, If your going to follow the rules, what are you going to do with a £100 prized Acro thats sitting on its own rock?
i agree ...forget the £40 thing, it was just to show that a tank (be it hospital/Q/whatever - can be got cheap)
My invert Q tank will run a single 250w halide....doesnt need much else than a heater and a simple filter.
The fish tank the same - although i may skim the fish tank with a spare AM 5000 twin i have....just to be sure ;)
so yes...costs are higher - but still not that much compared to the cost of losing all the stock from a 500g system because of marine velvet or something.
and i know 99.9999999999999% wont do it - my point is simply that it can be done.
Ill lay odds on the fact (as allready stated) that you have allways had a background population, and the move/stress had caused a lowering of the fishes imune system and an increased susseptability to the presence of the pathogen...
Go on Si what odds you offering? ;)
PS: personnaly ive found garlic to be a superb appetite inducer. both my tangs and anthias (odd things that they are) have allways responded much more vigorously and enthusiastticly to food soaked in Garlic in the past.
Yep fish are strange things I have had absolutely no success with garlic as an appetite stimulant or as a white spot cure what so ever
simon garratt
06-11-06, 12:24
Go on Si what odds you offering?
A fair few years experience, and fish like this,,,,,, without the need for Hypo treatments, or chemicals...just good food, good conditions and prior reasearch..
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Picture 036bhg.jpg
care to show me your cards then wombat......? ;)
or as a white spot cure what so ever
Now now, i never said that now did i...:D ......I said that a well fed and healthy fish is more likely to shrug off infection due to a boosted imune system. Using garlic imo, simply helps induce a more enthuisiastic feeding response in many fish which makes it easyer for you to keep them well norished whilst undergoing either a course of treatment, or during mild oubreaks in the main tank.
regards.
Si. :)
A fair few years experience, and fish like this,,,,,, without the need for Hypo treatments, or chemicals...just good food, good conditions and prior reasearch..
care to show me your cards....? ;)
No I agree totally what what you are saying fish don't need to be treated to within an inch of there lives all the time. I haven't lost a fish for 5 years (although some are looking their age now my royal gramma 9 and my fireball angels are 6 and look it). But I do QT all new stock including inverts
It's the continuous infection with low levels of white spot that I don't think happens, certainly the evidence is that once cleared it is cleared until it is reintroduced (which is very common if you don't QT fish). And so many people make the mistake of putting diseased fish in their main tank and end up with a disease problem. How many times have we seen people (for the best reasons) say I bought the little chap with white spots, velvet, torn fins, big lumps, because I felt sorry for it only to see they saying a week later it died and the rest of their stock now has the same white spots, velvet, torn fins, big lumps etc.
My advice would always be "if the fish look ill leave them for the dealer to sort out."
Now now, i never said that now did i...:D ......I said that a well fed and healthy fish is more likely to shrug off infection due to a boosted imune system. Using garlic imo, simply helps induce a more enthuisiastic feeding response in many fish which makes it easyer for you to keep them well norished whilst undergoing either a course of treatment, or during mild oubreaks in the main tank. :)
No you didn't :D just me being devils advocate and I agree well fed fish are much easier to treat etc than a half starved one.
Persoanlly I have never seen an improved feeding response with garlic (I know it's fairly arbitrary unless you are measuring feed consumption on a daily basis) its just not worked for me.
simon garratt
06-11-06, 12:43
On a serious note though and without the proverbial fishkeeping muscle flexing thats been rife on these Wspot threads of late. All im saying is, that advice needs to be realistic, and in the realms of whats feasible under the circumstances.
Dishing out advice on fish health is admirable and ive got ultimate respect for those who are willing to take the time to go through it again and again. but lets not loose sight of the fundamentals that lead to problems from the start, and lets not loose sight of the fact that modern reefkeeping has come along way to the degree that old accepted methods that were applicable just a few years ago. may not be a good idea in many modern systems. unless youve taken the time to get all the relevant info together first.
Whichever school of thought you belong to, it doesnt detract from the need to push home the basic rules of running a tank. ie research, research research. first and formost to avoid problems from the start, or when trying to cure a problem. especially if you want to avoid it comming back again.
Regards
Si.
PS: yes i have lost fsih in the past to illness, but who hasnt, even in a quarentine system.:)
simon garratt
06-11-06, 12:47
royal gramma 9
I bet hes a grumpy looking bugger...:D :D
Absolutely, the recent advice re methylene blue and freshwater dips are from the 1930's. Things have moved on hugely since then, but that misinformation is still prevalent on some websites and manufactures of methylene blue products and some people take that as gospel.
Sadly it's the poor biosecurty that LFS/people practice that is the biggest risk to an established reef tank these days. For example there aren't many LFS that don't keep their fish systems with copper but how many actually tell their customers that they do this to suppress white spot etc?
Just look at the OATA guidelines on koi biosecurty for Koi herpes virus to see the risks that can be generated from obtaining stock of dubious quality.
Until LFS/people get better at quarantine etc there will still be a large amount of incidents of accidental introduction of disease into an established tank and people will want to know what options are open to them.
yes i have lost fish in the past to illness, but who hasn't, even in a quarantine system.
everyone I'm sure, don't ask me about the research aquariums at work though once lost £250,000 of stock overnight (but that was due to a fire)
I bet hes a grumpy looking bugger...:D :D
Actually he's not too bad but the fireball angels look like Albert Steptoe :D
simon garratt
06-11-06, 13:08
everyone I'm sure, don't ask me about the research aquariums at work though once lost £250,000 of stock overnight (but that was due to a fire)
Ouch...:confused:
Actually he's not too bad but the fireball angels look like Albert Steptoe
Reminds me of a ten year old Undulatus trigger i had many years ago in his own tank....talk about grumpy. He used to chuck rocks around the tank if he was in one of his...moods....:rolleyes: . Still it used to crack people up watching him play witha pingpong ball.:D
I had a one eyed queen trigger (parasite in the eye, used to call him Rooster) like that, took a friends thumbnail off once he was mean!
thats got to hurt:confused:
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