crap day!

[BWC615]

Having a really crap day today!

My dad kept Marine fish for years when I was a kid. He (my dad) got sick a few months ago and move in with my husband and myself. As a 60th Birthday we bought a tank and got him all set up again. It’s been great, really taken our minds off the illness.

However today I lost my babies (the best 2 female clowns I’ve ever seen) they’ve been a bit off the last few days but seemed fine last night. Woke up this morning and they are on the bottom and very pale. I think it was the SPOT! We dropped the salinity and sweated like pigs trying to get the temp up but it wasn’t enough.

We are still planning an upgrade that is in design stages but I think this was our tanks way of telling us it doesn’t want to be a sump for the new one.

I think I’m going to get a quarantine tank before I start as I think this problem stems from some Anthias I bought that died within 2 days.

Just thought it might help to share my pain!

[Johnt]

I'm sorry to hear you've lost your Clowns :( I hope no other fish are showing signs of white spot.

Good luck John.

[BWC615]

Thanks John. We only have a red sea cleaner and a chalk Goby and they seem ok. Fingers crossed!

[Wombat]

Sorry to hear about that. If you even need help with fish health issues please PM me

[MrFish]

We dropped the salinity and sweated like pigs trying to get the temp up but it wasn’t enough.

What do you mean by this?

[BWC615]

Sorry I mean I added RO very slowly over the course of the day trying to get the salinity down to 1.018 and turned our lounge heating up full. I do have a heater in the tank but with our lounge heating on the temp always goes higher anyway. I didn’t want to boil the buggers by turning the tank up only to get even hotter when the heating came on at 4pm.
I only got half way through the process as they died while I was doing it.
Question though. What do I do now? How do I get ride of white spot out of the water, I wasn’t planning on introducing any more fish for now but should I keep up with the medication? (Aqua Medic Exodin) Do I turn the skimmer back on? Or should I keep the salinity really low and the temp up high for a week just incase?

Also my red sea cleaner is very strange. We got him at the same time as the Anthias. He was really good fun to watch at first bombing around the tank and picking at rocks.

Then a few days ago I didn’t see him all day, I was getting a bit worried. Then about 8pm-ish he popped out acting as normal (looking fine as well) stayed out for a bout an hour and then disappeared again.

He’s been doing the same thing for the last 4 days but then this morning he was out when I got up and has been just like he was when we first got him. However and this is really weird.

A short while ago He suddenly turned over on his back and floated away as if pushed by the current dead! I jumped up and turned of all the pumps and he slowly floated to the bottom of the tank and lay there still upside down. I thought he had died as well. I went out to the garage to get a net and when I came back he is swimming around right as rain? He doesn’t appear to have any spots and he’s breathing fine. Is it possible that he got caught by a strong current (Maxijet 1200) and stunned himself on the glass or something?

[instantsquid]

I hate to appear to be the villain here, but it sounds like you need to take a step back and do a LOT of research, before doing anything else to your tank.
Dropping the salinity in a single day is guaranteed to stress out the fish - if they're already sick, their immune systems will almost shut down completely.
Also, raising the temperature in the tank is not a proven technique for dealing with whitespot. All that will happen is the lifecycle of the parasite will speed up, potentially speeding up the infection of all the fish in the tank!

Like I said, you need to take a step back and do a lot of reading - all the information is out there.

- Ian

[BWC615]

Thats not being a villain, I want to be told if I'm doing something Twatish! This is the thing, I was advised to do this by my local store? I have found that different ppl say different things! I admit I didnt like the sound of dropping the salinity when I heared it but then I saw that in PFK there was a referance to this as well and I made a choice. I think the clowns were to far gone to save anyway but what now then?

[instantsquid]

Hypo-salinity is a technique that does work for some, but not all, parasitic infections. It rarely works well on marine whitespot, but can provide temporary relief for marine velvet disease. That is why an accurate diagnosis is essential before any programme of treatment is started.

Anyway, in answer to your question - "what now?" - can you provide a little more information about your setup? Size of tank, age of setup, stock, filtration, invertebrates (shrimps, crabs), corals, fish and so on. The more information you provide, the better idea people will have and the more appropriate their advice will be.

- Ian

[zimreef]

Yeah, conflicting advice is confusing and is readily passed on as gospel even though it may be based on hearsay and old methods, old wives tales and witchcraft, even freshwater type treatments are sometimes bandied around.

There was a really good thread a little while ago re white spot which I thought had been "stickied" - but can't find it now. Will have another look.

Marines are very delicate and any sudden change even over a matter of hours, even if improving parameters etc can stress them and result in their demise.

John

[BWC615]

My head hurts! I've been reading since 6am and I'm still none the wiser!

My Tank is a Juwel 240 (no sump); I have a fluval 305, Sea clone skimmer, and 25kg of live rock. 3 x White T5's and a blue one. 2 other powerheads.

All this I bought from eBay about 2 months ago. It only had a period of 1 week without fish as old owner had upgraded. He did keep it running though and he'd had it for 2 years with no problems.

I bought the clowns first about 6 weeks ago, the goby went in about 2 weeks after that and the red sea cleaner just 8 days ago. I also have 2 x cleaner shrimp, an anemone with crab, xenia (very little bit), a leather coral, tube worm, mushrooms and polyps and a small clean up crew.

I’m going to test the water right now so I’ll get back to you with that but up until now its all been fine. (I did double check it yesterday with my local store)

[zimreef]

With the info you've given it sounds as though you've been unlucky as you've been pretty disciplined as regards adding new stock.

Interested to see your water parameters.

John

[BWC615]

Ok here we go:

Temp 27.5C

Salintiy 1.019

Ammonia 0

Nitrite between 0 -0.1mg/L

Nitrate 0

Ph 8.2

Phosphate 0.25mg/L

Calcium 16 drops X 20 =320mg/L

Kh 10 drops X 10 = 100mg/L x 0.056 = 5.6 dKh (no idea what happened here as it was 7dkh yesterday, 6.72dKh on the 30th, 28th and 7dkh on the 12th)??????

Oh yeah these are Hagens test kits, and I had a pumb bob thingy for salinity although digital one and Ph meter are on way from ebay!

[instantsquid]

Nothing too wrong with your parameters as far as fish go, apart from the salinity. I think you need to bring that back up for the sake of the invertebrates, but do it slowly - no more than about 0.002 per day.

As John says, it sounds like you were unlucky in as much as you purchased fish which were infected already. The problem now is that the disease is in your system and you need to decide on a plan of action.

We are assuming that the disease is whitespot at the moment. And you've said that none of the remaining fish look affected. I would be inclined to maintain top quality water conditions and keep the fish really well fed, and just monitor the situation. If any fish changes in any way, then it's time to have a rethink.

- Ian

[instantsquid]

Here's your pic...
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/clowns%20for%20web.jpg

[BWC615]

These were my clowns! I just wanted to see if I could put a pic on here without asking my hubby to figure it out first but I think PC things should be left to him!

Thanks Ian!

[instantsquid]

Does the temperature fluctuate much during the day? Stability is generally more important than the absolute figure, so as long as you're in the ballpark, keeping it stable is the key. If you can reduce it slightly, that would be good - but you mentioned that the tank temperature rose when the central heating came on, so maybe keep it at a level where this doesn't happen.
As for you alkalinity reading, it does appear to be a bit all over the place, but this won't have a much effect on the fish - it is more of an issue for hard corals - which you don't have any of yet.

- Ian

[BWC615]

Ok the norm for my tank temp wise has been between 26.2 lowest and 27.5 at 4pm when heating comes on. So should I leave it like that?

Also just been reading "I think my tank has a dieses" Joshthenosh 22-05-2006 and my local store said it sounded like “saltwater itch” and gave the advise that I followed. However after reading that I'm not sure if they meant white spot or oodinium? What’s the difference? Do I need to do anything different if its oodinium and not white spot?

Prior to death the clowns did have white spots on them since Mon last week but only first thing in the morning. One was scratching her head on the sand and the other one was swimming a bit funny. They both seemed fine come lunch time each day and had no problems feeding or breathing till yesterday when they died? The cleaner wrasse is still Ok (fingers crossed) at the moment but has been weird the last few days (see post before) He doesn’t have any marks or spots and isn’t scratching?

Also I did medicate with aqua medic’s Exodin on Mon, Wed, Fri, sat and I am supposed to do so again today. Should I?

oh yeah and the goby shows no signs that anythings wrong at all

[instantsquid]

It's worth doing a Google search on the various diseases that have similar symptoms - namely, Cryptocaryon irritans (marine whitespot), Amyloodinium ocellatum (marine velvet disease), and Brooklynella hostilis (sometimes called Clownfish disease)
I don't think, from your description, that your fish had Amyloodinium. It's possible it was either of the other two though. Whitespot doesn't usually kill fish as quickly as yours died - it's not unheard of, just unlikely. I'm edging towards Brooklynella, but without seeing the fish it's impossible to be sure.

I think you need to leave the tank alone - don't start adding treatments again as you're not sure of what you're treating! It's like taking cough medicine when you've got a crisp stuck in your throat :D

As I said before, take your time getting your water parameters correct again and concentrate on keeping everything stable - do you have a water change regime yet? You'll need to keep on top of water changes if your fish are to have a fighting chance.

Are the remaining fish eating well? Again, they'll need to be well fed if their immune systems are to be in the best condition.

- Ian

[BWC615]

Just about to give them some frozen brine shrimp but yeah they seem to be.

Water changes have been sort of weekly say 10days about 5% but think I'm going to mix own water now and do 10% weekly starting next sat.

I'll bring Salinity back to 1.025 over the next few days and see what happens.
just found a bit about Brooklynella

"Some possible visible symptoms are the following: "

• Increased mucus production - didnt seem to be
• Loss of appetite - no way they could get to food quick enough
• Turbidity of the skin - ?ish
• String-like material hanging from the fish - nope
• Increased respiration, or even open-mouth gasping - not till yesterday
• Hyperactivity in early stages - they were a bit hypo anyway
• Hiding or reclusiveness - not really
• Cloudy eyes associated with secondary bacterial infections- they were bright as a button
• Faded colors or discolored areas - only yesterday
• Lethargic in late stages - yeah I guess so
• Hanging at the surface or laying on the bottom in late stages of infection - yeah they did lay on the bottom yesterday
• Rapid weight loss associated with dehydration, as fish lose their ability
to osmoregulate. - not that I noticed
• Loose scales -no
• Secondary bacterial infections - ?????

Anyway what ever it was how long will I have to wait till I can safely put something else in? I dont think it'll be till after x-mas but is Jan to soon?

I was all geared up for my tank upgrade for x-mas and now it looks like I'm gonna have an empty tank instead. :(

However I do have a nice new ring main and some plugs!:rolleyes:

Anyway I think I'll go get a hospital/ quarantine tank tomorrow, So I've got something to play with. Any thoughts on what I should get? I'm thinking small as dont have much space, maybe 2ft!

[instantsquid]

Hi (sorry, still don't know your name!)

A hospital/quarantine tank is an excellent idea. I place all my new fish in quarantine for 6 weeks before adding them to my main tank.
You need to size your QT relative to your main tank and intended stock - a 2' tank will be fine if you're planning clowns, other damsels, gobies, etc. but would obviously not be appropriate for a mature Regal Tang (for example!)
You need to give filtration on the QT a bit of thought - this is where a lot of people fail, as they rush into setting it up (usually when their fish get sick) throw the already weakened fish into a tank with an immature biological filter, and bamm! - floating fish :(
I recommend one of the internal, foam filters made by Eheim, Fluval, etc. - the reason being that you can take the foam out and place it in your current tank for a week or so, to get nicely "seeded" with nitrifying bacteria.
In addition to a filter you'll need a small heater, a very basic light (even a desk lamp will do) and some pieces of plastic pipe, or plastic flowerpots for the fish to hide in.

The key to a successful quarantine/hospital tank is to keep it simple. Keep the water changes up, monitor parameters, and keep things as stress-free as possible for the fish.

Hope that helps.

- Ian

[Wombat]

Hi,

I think Ian's covered most bases and I agree Brooklynella sounds a strong possibility

[BWC615]

Thank Ian, Its April by the way.

Incline to agree with you both Brooklynella but could that have come from the Anthias?

I think the plan now is to get the QT up and running, sort out the main tanks SG and draw up plans for the new tank.

After X-mas I might get some green chromis and keep them in the QT for 6 weeks, by then my main tank should be all clear hopefully.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Ian I may pick your brains about your tank build later if that’s OK. Fab tank!! The same Idea I had for mine as I don’t have space for a hole in the wall.

[instantsquid]

Any fish could have brought the disease into the tank - that's the problem with a lot of diseases, they're usually not spotted in the short time the fish is in the shop (sadly most shops do not quarantine their stock).

It sounds like you do at least have a way forward now. Of course, nothing is set in stone and if the situation changes you may have to alter your plans. But I think what you're proposing is the right way to go from here.

No worries at all about asking questions about my tank - it's still very much a "work in progress" as there's plenty of odd jobs to sort out. Hopefully I can tell you what has worked, and what hasn't! There's some amazing tanks on this site so pick as many people's brains as you can :)

- Ian

[BWC615]

Thanks Ian, appreciate all the help!

In your build thread you mentioned that the sump was based on Si G's Reef-Eden DSB sump? am I being thick but what is a DSB? Are there any diagrams?

[instantsquid]

Hello April,

If you go to this thread:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=142521

Scroll down the first page until you get to Simon Garratt's entry - he describes how his sump works in some detail. My sump was basically a rip-off of his idea (thanks Si :))

- Ian