View Full Version : Ultra Low Nutrient Syetems - The Use of ZEOvit, Ultralith and Prodibio
Further to many EMs/ PM contacts about what ZEOvit/prodibio/Ultralith are and how to use them, I thought it maybe helpful if there was a distinct thread to capture the Q&As. The key is to understand the concepts, and armed with that knowledge apply the tools now at our disposal.
Some people, quite understandably have asked if I have any commercial interest in either Prodibio or ZEOvit. I do not. Nick @ Coral Culture has the UK import rights for these lines. I have no business relationship with Nick and do not get any discounts from him (:( now that is a shame) I work as a senior manager in the NHS, and thus dont have the time to be making a few bob on the side.
My interest is purely as a hobbyist who enjoys the relaxation that reef keeping brings at the end of some very hard days, and anything that enhances this enjoyment is a good thing.
I also enjoy the irony of calling these approaches voodoo mojo:cool: . My own view is that these are not the only road to Rome, and there are plenty of beautiful tanks using other methods. I'm therefore not interested in attempting to prove that these methods are anything more than just useful tools in our box.
Its worth noting that Fauana Marin and GroTech (and Tunze to some extent) have approaches based on zeolites, but with enough differences to warrent a distinction being made. IMO for the sake of clarity need to be called something other than ZEOvit. (Ultralith and zeolite seem sensible)? And further to Jez's suggestion the Ultralith system could be discussed here too, due to the similarities in aiming for a nutrent limited enviroments through the use of zeolites bacteria, bacteria food, and further enhancement of coloration by a focus on nutrition and element supplementation.
For the probiotic beginner, the three main product ranges are quite extensive and could be confusing, so if there is much interest, I'll draw up a comparisons table based around functionality and outcome in conjunction with Jez. Jez of course is related to FM professionally, but has immense experience to draw on, and would not have aligned himself to this if it were just another 'fad', rather than a significant step forward in husbandary.
All that preamble aside, if the thread takes off all well and good, and if it doesnt all well and good too.
I know there are some zeovit users in the UK who dont post here, but if they do that would be helpful.
A ZEOvit reef:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3228ur.jpg
Trythechi, do you use the coral snow? ive heard a beneficial side effect is that it helps water clarity?
You can't argue with that tank!!!!
Trythechi, do you use the coral snow? ive heard a beneficial side effect is that it helps water clarity?
Yes, I'v used it since arround about Xmas and noticed a few things:
Greater clarity to the water as you say;
PH stays at 8.1 at the lowest ebb;
Greater growth in coraline alage;
Greater growth of some (but not all) sps colonies. I dont know why this is as my DKH/CA/Mg levels are all at NSW levels.
I'm not sure I'v noticed greater impact of elements when combination dosed.
I'v not noticed that my little patch of cynobacter disappeared when combination dosing with bacteria. I'v just syphoned that out and will try again to see if combination dosing does the trick at preventing a return.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Simon
This should make for interesting reading :D personally I would have preferred to see a thread or conference set-up on ultra low nutrient aquariums and methods, making for a broader church. But you Zeoheads do love to eulogise about the one true path.:p :p :p Now I have to go and do the Ultralith thread ho hum.
Hi Simon
This should make for interesting reading :D personally I would have preferred to see a thread or conference set-up on ultra low nutrient aquariums and methods, making for a broader church. But you Zeoheads do love to eulogise about the one true path.:p :p :p Now I have to go and do the Ultralith thread ho hum.
Fair doos Jez - happy to go along with that. I'll edit things about abit to widen it out to include your product line too:D . Good idea my friend:)
Edit: Mods I cant edit the Title - Please could it be changed to: "Ultra Low Nutrient Syetems - The Use of ZEOvit, Ultralith and Prodibio" many thanks.
Jez - happy with the change to post 1 and our joint action?
Nice one Simon its not so much about product lines as the subject in all its facets interests me. I appreciate that in some ways Zeolith deserves a thread to its self and perhaps when we reach 1000 strong the board will give us a low nutrient or Zeo forum to play in.
Cheers Jez
Nice one Simon its not so much about product lines as the subject in all its facets interests me.
Cheers Jez
Hi Jez
I agree entirely that the product lines are secondary to functionality. I just think that to begin with people may need advice and share experience with reference to 'A does this B does that etc' Already I'm aware of at least two people at PHD level who are also hobbyists are digging deeper and will no doubt bring new knowlegde to the table.
Great stuff
Simon
Can I ask what the fundemental differences are in the systems?
I thought they both relied on Zeo to absorb some nutrients and then bacterial colonies/feeding to polish off what was left?
Plus the supplimentary coral/clam foods etc to give a high food/low nutrient environment? :)
Hi Simon,
Thanks for you help and advise today, I'll certainly be watching this thread with interest.
Thread title changed as requested.
Cheers,
Cam.
Can I ask what the fundemental differences are in the systems?
I thought they both relied on Zeo to absorb some nutrients and then bacterial colonies/feeding to polish off what was left?
Plus the supplimentary coral/clam foods etc to give a high food/low nutrient environment? :)
Hi Chris
There are paralells and differences between the two systems that maybe helpful to describe:
Paralels:
Basic system: Both use zeolites, regular bacterial inoculations, bacteria food, and a carbon source.
Beacuase the massive bac populations in both systems are so effective at consuming nutients, the bacs consume a large quantity of potassium - which if not repleished will result in stunted growth and fading colors in some sps. ZEOvit used a product call K ballance to replenish losses, and FM has Ultra Organics, which contains other elements too.
Both systems use Amino Acids as part of the alternative feeding strategy in a nutrient limited environment.
Both ranges have various media other than zeolites for use in reactors.Differences:
ZEOvit has a wide range of separate elements that are used to tweak coloration in SPS:
FM: Has a wide range of food available suitable for specific and distinct animal feeding groups.I'v only used ZEOvit and prodibio - so cant comment on FM in practice - but it seems to me that the basic 4 in both serve the same function and will get the same results in the hands of a reefer who understands what is happening and plays close attention to how our animals are responding.
I imagine ZEOvit will have the advantage in being able to tweak coloration in SPS, and that FM will have the advantage in meeting the feedfing needs for a wider range of animals.
I'm looking forward to seeing an SPS dominated tank with 6-8 months of FM husbandary behind it.
Prodibio does without zeolites and relies on a different preparation of bacs and bac food being hosted in and on LR and LS. Its the cheapest and easiest of the three, and IMO is very helpful for people wishing to gain some of the benefits of probiotic approach, without taking it all the way.
Three photos attached to illustrate the difference and progression:
Photo 1: Pre Probiotics;
Photo 2: After 3 months on Prodibio;
Photo3: After a further 8 months on ZEOvit
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/IMG_4031z.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Misc 001z.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3205z.jpg
Hi Simon,
Thanks for you help and advise today, I'll certainly be watching this thread with interest.
Thread title changed as requested.
Cheers,
Cam.
Pleasure Cam - many thanks for the edit.
Hi all, just a quick question, r all these systems designed only for sps dominated tanks?
Cheers
Nick
Hi
Many of the systems you see running with Zeo/low nutrient are SPS dominated the core aims of the methods are suitable for all types of corals*** The main reason that SPS tend to dominate at present is that SPS lovers often tend to be at the dripping edge of the hobby and more open to new or more advanced methods. The guy starting out with a few toadstools and mushrooms is getting his head around pH/salinity and all the basics husbandry that goes with your first marine aquarium. This is not to say that these methods are not suitable for beginners it is just that few shops have the experience to start and support a customer down the Zeo road. This will change into the future as more shops learn the benefits and use the products. I am currently working on a beginners guide for Fauna Marin Zeo products.
***
As we are encouraging debate IMHO where I have seen LPS/RICs and other items kept on Zeo systems at zeovit.com I feel that a full on Zeolith system is probably too nutrient deficient for some corals. In many cases these corals can look almost bleached, as the thinning of zooxanthelae does not look as good as it does on SPS corals. Having said that if you are an LPS fancier these systems can go as far as you need to get the best for the corals. Certainly keeping these corals in a low nutrient environment will encourage natural feeding, you might not need to go as far as the guy with a tank full of SPS.
Jez
I think these systems would be very good on a new build, get the nutrients low asap so you dont have to go through months of algae troubles
Hi
Are you still battling with algae prob's
Jez
Hi all, just a quick question, r all these systems designed only for sps dominated tanks?
Cheers
Nick
Hi Nick
for non stoney coral reefs - the Prodibio range can be helpful in keeping nutrients very low, and suitable for people getting to grips with basic husbandary requirements. Some users over on RP have been using Prodi with softee tanks and have photos to show th eimprovement
Cheers
Simon
Its been 4 days since I made the changes and the algae has reduced quite alot, will wait untill it completly clears up and then I can gradually increase the dosage untill I know the limits for my tank
Jez, whats the pros and cons of cycling the reactor vs runnign continuously?
also
As you said it takes a while for zeo system to completly deal with phophates on its own, is it beneficial to run some phosphate media alongside at the beginning?
Thanks 4 the help, i think i will leave the zeovit out of current setup, but am setting up a new tank soon and will try it then.
Cheers
Nick
I think these systems would be very good on a new build, get the nutrients low asap so you dont have to go through months of algae troubles
Thats my theory - i am setting up zeovit on my sumps so that when i add the display and lighting in a few months i may skip the "start up" issues of excess nutrient/algae etc
Trythechi, many thanks for such a comprehensive reply :)
The before, during and "after" pictures of the hysterix certainly look impressive.
A top thread, thank you :)
Hi
The stated advantages of cycling the reactor is to assist in creating a lower oxygen environment to help certain species of bacteria to take hold.
I think there is something a bit more advanced going on here. As if a bacteria favours a low oxygen environment then he has just a 1 hour window of opportunity where at some point the oxygen level in the reactor is going to drop to a point that produces conditions that favour lower oxygen species. I have seen no readings of what the drop is in ORp for cycling the reactor is.
I would welcome a few points here as although it is recommend to help with denitrification and speeding up colonisation I probably think there is more going on.
As for phosphate removal yes if the phosphates are high I would passively run some absorption media as the bacteria and amino products can lead to blooms of cynobacteria if phosphates are too high. This is not mentioned in to much German literature as most Germans would simply except that phosphate is never high. In the UK we are a bit more ambivalent to managing phosphates.
Jez
Cycling the reactor is important. The bacterium strains used can respire aerobically and anaerobically (no oxygen), and some that can do both.
If the reactor was not cycled, the oxygen level in the reactor would remain constant and hence favour either areobic or anaerobic respiration. So if one of these conditions is favoured, a large proportion of the bacteria will not grow very effectively.
With the bacteria that respire both aerobically and anaerobically, if they can only respire anaerobically, toxic metabolites can build up (though unlikely to cause any problems in an aquarium). For these strains to denitrify an aquarium there should be alternating aerobic and anaerobic environment for the bacteria.
Thanks to Jez and mjbruce, whats the best way to cycle the reactor, Ive read on zeo thats its 3 hours on 3 hours off?
I havent got round to cycling mine yet, still need to pick up a timer.
Oh just to add, I did a phosphate test using deltec kit and its totally clear, not even a hint of phosphate so system seems to work at keeping levels down.
Reefer Madness
12-02-07, 16:05
I am subscribing to this thread even though i only keep zoanthids, you never know there might be something in it for me, either way it is very interesting.
Twistedpro
12-02-07, 16:08
I think the system can be used on any style tank, although the different products seem better at different situations. The fact your providing a more natural environment is always going to help.
Hi
***
As we are encouraging debate IMHO where I have seen LPS/RICs and other items kept on Zeo systems at zeovit.com I feel that a full on Zeolith system is probably too nutrient deficient for some corals. In many cases these corals can look almost bleached, as the thinning of zooxanthelae does not look as good as it does on SPS corals. Having said that if you are an LPS fancier these systems can go as far as you need to get the best for the corals. Certainly keeping these corals in a low nutrient environment will encourage natural feeding, you might not need to go as far as the guy with a tank full of SPS.
Jez
Interesting question there Jez. Attached are some photos of LPS Ricordia and RBTA from my full zeovit reef. They just sit in the same water with no target feeding including the RBTA whicjh I havent fed for months. He doesnt move an inch - god help the sps arround him if he did!!
Do they look under nourashed to your eye?
Many thanks
Simon
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Copy of DSC_3199u.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3217u.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3266u.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3282u.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3222.jpg
Cycling the reactor is important. The bacterium strains used can respire aerobically and anaerobically (no oxygen), and some that can do both.
If the reactor was not cycled, the oxygen level in the reactor would remain constant and hence favour either areobic or anaerobic respiration. So if one of these conditions is favoured, a large proportion of the bacteria will not grow very effectively.
With the bacteria that respire both aerobically and anaerobically, if they can only respire anaerobically, toxic metabolites can build up (though unlikely to cause any problems in an aquarium). For these strains to denitrify an aquarium there should be alternating aerobic and anaerobic environment for the bacteria.
Hi Mark
I will always be informed by your PhD level microbiology knowledge:D IME I have not cycled the zeoreactor at any time, and so assume from what you'v described that denitrification in my tank must take place in the LR and DSB or inside the larger zeolite stones (ZEOvit zeolites seem to have a few larger ones than ultralith)? There are certainly plenty of bubbles in the DSB to indicate some action.
The Salifert NO3 kit always reads 0 , but when Gary at paraquatics used a spectrometer - it showed up a reading of 5.
Maybe I should try cycling......
Presumably the PO4 consumed by bacs isnt effected by not cycling? The Meick shows 0 but I'm sure a spectrometer would show something.
Cheers
Simon
:D :D :D :D Yuk terrible sickly LPS simon
Joking aside after I posted that comment last night I went back to find the images on the Zeovit forum and without major work could not find them. I recall it was in answer to can you keep LPS on Zeolith systems.
All the zeoheads said yes big time but to me lots of the Tra's looked like pale green jellies.
But that is certainly not the case in your images.
Jez
:D :D :D :D Yuk terrible sickly LPS simon
Joking aside after I posted that comment last night I went back to find the images on the Zeovit forum and without major work could not find them. I recall it was in answer to can you keep LPS on Zeolith systems.
All the zeoheads said yes big time but to me lots of the Tra's looked like pale green jellies.
But that is certainly not the case in your images.
Jez
Vital point in principle and practice though Jez:D . These systems are so powerful, they can take nutrient limitation to nutrient starvation if the user isnt observant and knows how to act.
Not to overplay the risk, because its easily recified, but the new user needs to be attentive at the point at which nutrients are reduced and washed out/ bleaching can occure.
In established tanks, with a high latent nutrient load hiding away in the sand and rocks, this can take a little time, and maybe the user has become a little less observant through bordom;) But when it turns, and all the latent kak has been dealth with, the move towards lightening/thining can take hold.
This is the fulcrum point at which the 'sleepy reefer' could fail, and watch it all go white! Then blame zeolite or something.
In the first phase of nutrient reduction, sps and LPS are used to getting nutrients through symbiotic ZOOX and disolved organics. In the next phase of nutient limitation, corals need to adapt to getting thier nutrition through different mechanisms ie capturing nutrient laden bacteria and digesting this, and by reconstructing proteans from amino acids.
It takes them time to make this change so phasing in AA and CV dosing (in addition to the bactoplancton) while phasing out nutrients is the ballance to achieve.
People may overreact and dose lightening sps with too much food stuffs, and the result will be darkening/browning again- better to try to spot the cusp and phase in gradually.
Also - I wonder if some users are too parsimonious with fish feeding? At the STM open eveing, it really struck me when Claude talked of the shear weight of food that passes through a give cube of reef water in the wild. The take home message for me was feed well, and filter better.
Once one is in this new stride, its relatively easy to keep the ballance.
JMO
Simon
superb thread, very informative and interesting.
Simon, great thread ;)
I think its worth mentioning that you also feed your system very heavily! never seen someone flood their tank with so much cyclopeeze in one go!! :P
IMHO, thats one of the advantages of the probiotic systems. They allow you feed heavily whilst maintaining very low nutrient waters. It brings us a step closer towards the food/planktonic levels on the reefs. The zeolith also systems have the added benefit of food in the form of bacteria mulm.
Simon, great thread ;)
I think its worth mentioning that you also feed your system very heavily! never seen someone flood their tank with so much cyclopeeze in one go!! :P
IMHO, thats one of the advantages of the probiotic systems. They allow you feed heavily whilst maintaining very low nutrient waters. It brings us a step closer towards the food/planktonic levels on the reefs. The zeolith also systems have the added benefit of food in the form of bacteria mulm.
Hi Kieth
Are u saying my fish are fat?:D Its true - as I say Claude's message struck home:cool:
Cheers
Simon
Hi Kieth
Are u saying my fish are fat?:D Its true - as I say Claude's message struck home:cool:
Cheers
Simon
your royal gramma could do with a slim down! :D
Really glad to see something on UR - I'd been leafing through a couple of the German boards but my language skills aren't up to the browsing! So thanks Simon and Jez - will be watching with interest.
Not too fussed about the twigs ;) but some of the dendros kept on FM systems are truly amazing.
Grant
instantsquid
12-02-07, 22:52
A genuinely fascinating thread - thanks to all who are contributing :)
Now I'm currently sitting on the fence with regard to moving forward with the FM product range. I have been dosing (albeit a reduced amount) UltraBAK and UltraMIN S for about a month, very slowly increasing the dose each week. My tank is a mixture of SPS and LPS.
I am reluctant to add UltraLITH to the equation just yet, as I feel my Phosphate and Nitrate readings are still not acceptable (i.e. they're NOT zero). My other concern is that much emphasis is placed on "a big skimmer", and while my AP850 is adequate for a 7'x2'x2', it's by no means "oversized".
I suppose what I'm looking for is an "action plan" from where I am now.
Thanks in advance,
- Ian
sorry to ask again but whats the best way to cycle the reactor? 3hours on 3 hours off?
Great thread Si, good to see UR taking a look at system basics, the realisation that we keep bacteria over and above all else is refreshing. Here's an old but gold article, that covers all the bases, great intro read for those that want to diy or know what the current 'snake oils' contain:)
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/reprint/29/1/9.pdf
A genuinely fascinating thread - thanks to all who are contributing :)
Now I'm currently sitting on the fence with regard to moving forward with the FM product range. I have been dosing (albeit a reduced amount) UltraBAK and UltraMIN S for about a month, very slowly increasing the dose each week. My tank is a mixture of SPS and LPS.
I am reluctant to add UltraLITH to the equation just yet, as I feel my Phosphate and Nitrate readings are still not acceptable (i.e. they're NOT zero). My other concern is that much emphasis is placed on "a big skimmer", and while my AP850 is adequate for a 7'x2'x2', it's by no means "oversized".
I suppose what I'm looking for is an "action plan" from where I am now.
Thanks in advance,
- Ian
Hi Ian
Zeolites as described here will take your NO3/PO4 to undetectable via reagent test kits. You dont have to wait for them to be low - they will take you ultra low:) You can then sell up any NO3 and PO4 hardware and media.
Re the skimmer - its well within the tollerances for your size tank even on the heavy stocked rating on the D&D website. I would say your skimmer is perfectly capabable of doing the ultra low nutrient job required with zeolites. FWIW, I had a Deltec APF600 before the Bubble King, and the BK, although much better build quality in every respect only performs a little better than the Deltec. The main thing is to keep the riser neck clean every other day until you are in the ultra low nutrient phase, and it wont be producing much gunk then.
If you did want to progres onto this, heres a plan assuming your net volumne is 700ltrs:
You'll need 1.75 ltrs of zeolites, placed in a bottom to top flow reactor - reasonably easily DIY'd, with a flow rate through the reactor of 700ltrs PH (no more or a bit less). This will need changing out every 6 weeks or so to begin with, leaving 10% of the old zeolites in the reactor to help seed the new zeolites.. Its best to make sure you can eaily clean the zeolites by jiggling or pumping them. Thats arround 17 GBP every 6-8 weeks.
The easiest reactor to use is the I-Spin sold by Coral Culture, or check the zeovit.com website for diy design ideas.
Place the intake pump for the reactor in the first sump compartment, and the outlet furtherinto the sump, so the bacs get a chance to circulate in the tank before being skimmed out.
Jez can advise on the FM procedure for dosing.
If it were ZEOvit products it would be:
7 drops zeobac every other day for two weeks, then 7 twise a week;
7 drops zeofood7 ditto
4 mls zeostart 2 daily split into 2 or more doses.
You will get much clearer water from the mechanical filtration effect from the zeolites, and if you add .7ltr AC passively in the sump each month, please watch out for much greater light penetration,and consider raising the MHs if you have them, and need to.
Keep chugging along, cleaning the zeolites every night after lights out, and depending on how much stored nutrients in the system, sit back and marvel at your new pride and joy emerging.
Post up impressions here and we can help with spotting the cusp when it comes.
HTH
Simon
I have decided to go down the prodibio route as i run sumpless and the reactor thing is an issue.. if it gors well then i may look at getting a HOB zeo reactor made and switching
sorry to ask again but whats the best way to cycle the reactor? 3hours on 3 hours off?
Thats what they recommend in Zeoland - and to make sure the zeolites are submerged during the off phase.
Could you post a pic of your superb HOB reactor for ickypimp?
I have decided to go down the prodibio route as i run sumpless and the reactor thing is an issue.. if it gors well then i may look at getting a HOB zeo reactor made and switching
Nice one - could you post up b/a pics so people can see these are repeatable results?
Thats what they recommend in Zeoland - and to make sure the zeolites are submerged during the off phase.
Could you post a pic of your superb HOB reactor for ickypimp?
Sure,
Had it custom built by I-aquatics in singapore, very nice people to deal with
here is the design
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/maverick451/zeoadjust-1.jpg
Here is what it looked like when I received it
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/frag780 104.JPG
Couldnt be more pleased with it, really good quality
thanks for that... looks quite big for my diminutive system...
I have a bog standard straight through fluidiser i have never used ... i may look at using that to start.. IF i go that is the zeolite route.
is there anything special about the zeolitic materials ?? or are they merely being used as suppot media for anerobes..could you not use alphagrog or coral gravel to the same effect ??
is there anything special about the zeolitic materials ?? or are they merely being used as suppot media for anerobes..could you not use alphagrog or coral gravel to the same effect ??
that's the million dollar Question:D
from here
http://www.faunamarin.de/eng/ultralithsystem.php
ULTRALITH is a natural zeolite which efficiently removes ammonia from the water by its ion exchange properties. The ammonia enriched zeolite surface makes it easier for those harmonically selected bacteria in ULTRABIO to find settlement on ULTRALITH. Matched to the bacterias physiological needs we have successfully developed a nutrient solution to boosting bacteria growth on the zeolite. The three components of the ULTRALITH-SYSTEM provide you a effective and controllable nutrient reduction in the aquarium, a significant increase in coral coloration, and magnificent polyp extensions. Numerous test tanks document the unique success not only in the husbandry of stony corals.
How does Ultralith work?
Ultralith is a special kind of Zeolite, specifically chosen to reduce nutrients in reef tanks. But it is not just the Zeolite itself, it is the whole new method to maintain extremely low nutrient levels in marine aquaria.
Our filtration system is characterized by its simplicity. It’s not exclusively thought to produce pastel-coloured SPS corals but for general filtration and water purification as well.
Filtration with the Ultralith System can enhance the natural coloration of all corals.
It’s also suitable for maintaining water the quality in tanks, which are set up for keeping non-photosynthetic corals.
Combined with our special food (UltraBak and Ultramin S), Ultralith is a simple and safe method to keep even the most delicate and sensitive animals.
How to use the Ultralith-System?
Ultralith / Zeolite
The name "Zeolite" goes back to the greek words "zeo" (boiling) and "lithos" (stone). Upon heating, these minerals appear to be boiling.
Zeolites are minerals and consist mostly of silica and aluminium plus other elements like Sodium, Potassium, Iron, and Manganese. The most interesting feature of Zeolites is their crystal structure. You can think of it as a sponge with many small and large holes. Large and small should be seen in perspective of the scale, the small holes have the size of single molecules, about one billionth of a meter. The size of these holes depends on the chemical composition of the mineral. There are hundreds of different Zeolites known in nature and also many different synthetic Zeolites, Ultralith is a natural Zeolite. What makes these minerals so special is their ability to absorb specific compounds. Which compound is absorbed depends on the size and shape of the holes in the crystal structure, which is depending on the chemical composition. Therefore, depending on their composition Zeolites preferentially absorb different compounds. Ultralith is specifically chosen to absorb ammonium (NH4+).
However, thinking of Zeolites just as absorbers is a bit oversimplified. They are actually ion-exchangers. The holes to which a compound binds are not empty but rather filled with sodium or potassium. As soon as a preferred compound is available, another compound, usually sodium and potassium, is given off and the compound will be absorbed. This reaction, the replacement of one ion for another ion, is called ion-exchange. In marine aquaria the liberation of sodium or potassium and therefore the resulting ionic imbalance is negligible as they are major constituents of seawater anyways.
The absorption of ammonium is just one half of the story. The other half is where the biology comes in. As already mentioned, zeolites have a very porous structure; under the microscope they look almost like a sponge. The larger holes are much bigger than the small ones, about a thousand times bigger. This porous structure creates a large surface area for bacteria to settle on. As the ammonium is adsorbed by the crystal structure, the bacteria living on the Zeolite get their food delivered to their doorstep.
The overall reaction that takes place in a Zeolite filter is the removal of ammonium and its conversion into nitrogen gas, which goes off into the atmosphere. The removal of ammonium takes place in three steps, 1. Absorption of ammonium, 2. Oxidation of ammonium, 3. Denitrification.
1)As already explained, the ammonium will be adsorbed onto the surface of the mineral due to an ion-exchange process.
2)At the surface of each mineral grain, oxygen is still available. Here the ammonium is oxidised by autotrophic bacteria to nitrate according to the following formula
NH4+ + O2 + 3OH- = NO32- + 2 H2O
This process consumes oxygen, thereby creating an anoxic environment inside the mineral grains. If this would be the only process that occurs in a Zeolite filter such a system would actually produce nitrate, and its use for aquaria would be rather limited.
3)Deeper inside the mineral grain, heterotrophic bacteria will consume the nitrate that is produced in the outer layer. This process is called denitrification, and occurs in two steps, from nitrate to nitrite, and further to Nitrogen gas. The overall formula for both processes is given below
5CH2O + 4 NO32- = 4 HCO3- + CO2 + 3 H20 + 2 N2
Because this process is carried out by heterotrophic bacteria, they need to be fed with a suitable carbon source such as UltraBak.
But Zeolites can even do another trick! Inside the Zeolite filter, there is a small but constant abrasion of the material, which contains a lot of aluminium. These tiny particles bind phosphate. By leading the outflow of the Zeolite filter into the protein skimmer the abrasion is skimmed off, thereby removing phosphates from the aquarium.
The feeding of the bacteria substantially increases the bacterial biomass inside the filter, which again results in a binding of phosphate. Dead bacteria will either be removed by the skimmer or serve as food to some animals, especially filter feeders. Eventually the Zeolites will be clogged up by the bacteria. This is the reason why the material has to be exchanged regularly.
have you guys seen this chaps tanks ?? he runs zeolite and vodka... stunning colour on his SPS
http://www.reefaquariumguide.com/forum/member-tanks/101339-my-219g-reef-tank.html
he uses a zeolite called clinoptilolite (already on to a couple of UK supplers for costing...and a sample)
you guys who are already on zeovit and ultralith (or indeed any other zeo systems) you wanna send me a small sample so i can get some electron micrographs of them to compare with clinoptilolite ??
You maybe able to show differences between clinoptilolite and the other zeolites from a micrograph, but there are a large number of zeolites all with very similar structures that only differ in chemical content making it difficult to identify an unknown zeolite from a micrograph alone.
Althouhg I have just found a website that lists several different zeolite structures.
http://topaz.ethz.ch/IZA-SC/Introduction.htm.
Another problem is that clinoptilolite does not absorb ammonia very well at high salinity (altough it does still bind some). Take a look at this link, it compares the ammonia binding capacity of activated carbon and clinoptilolite at differing salinities.
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:RvQSSDdgIw4J:www.worldfishcenter.or g/Naga/Naga24-1%262/pdf/aquabyte%25204.pdf+clinoptilolite+marine+aquarium&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=uk
It would be great if we could find an alternative to ultralith/zeo, especially as most zeolites are fairly cheap. It is just when that magic label "for use in a marine aquarium" gets stuck on the bag that the price goes up.
Just be very careful if you start experimenting with different zeolites, most of then when used in a marine environment will strip the water of calcium
instantsquid
13-02-07, 15:01
Thanks very much for the "action plan" Simon :)
Sounds like it's a goer then - I've been looking at the reactors on zeovit.com to get some ideas - I quite like the idea of DIYing one.
Will definitely post up some pics once I'm ready to go.
- Ian
Reefer Madness
13-02-07, 15:13
I have decided to go down the prodibio route as i run sumpless and the reactor thing is an issue.. if it gors well then i may look at getting a HOB zeo reactor made and switching
ickypimp i would be interested as to how you get on, as i also run sumpless (in tank sump) and Prodibio would be the easier option,
cheers,
Pete.
.
....Just be very careful if you start experimenting with different zeolites, most of then when used in a marine environment will strip the water of calcium...
Do i come across as that stupid...
Do i come across as that stupid...
Lets keep it friendly please :D - other people read the post's too, and some may not be aware of the harmful chemical chain reaction that results from using the wrong zeolites.
Its a useful cautionary note.
Thanks
Simon
It was a general post not aimed at any one in particular...... but sorry if you were offended it was not intended.
I have just built an open top DIY zeo reactor following a design off the zeo forum. i will post pictures later....
instantsquid
13-02-07, 17:47
I have just built an open top DIY zeo reactor following a design off the zeo forum. i will post pictures later....
Look forward to seeing pics :)
Excellent. Good to see another master piece.
on the oversized skimmer front... what constitues suitable... for example my system is a diminutive 150 litres and i am running an MCE 600 rated at 700 litres
Definitely think I will have a go at the Fauna Marin system on my new tank.
on the oversized skimmer front... what constitues suitable... for example my system is a diminutive 150 litres and i am running an MCE 600 rated at 700 litres
IMHO I don't think we need oversize skimmers - just effective skimmers well maintained, from a manufacturer which does not exagerate the skimmers' capacity.
What I'v noticed is that if set to wet skimming, the volumn of material removed is quite substantial, so maybe something was lost in translation?
Before I start please forgive this post as most of it is down to my bad mood……
I have followed this post with huge interest as when I look at Trythechi tank I just go “whooo” as I’m sure most of us do.
But when I read on a bit I don’t see anything that special except maybe his bank balance. Look at the equipment list that’s being run. BK skimmer, Wavebox and streams all top notch stuff. Then look at the tank. It’s not a monster is it? I take it the size given is cm and not inch’s. So a 4’ tank if I’m right with a very low bio load!
Is this not the way we are all told we should run a tank. Big skimmer, lots of movement and low load!
Then look at the corals, wonderful colors but also wonderful lighting! And none of them can be that old as they have no real size to them (again if the tank is 4’). Most look to be not much bigger than when out of the shop.
I only ever get to see a few tanks in the flesh and what I would like to see is one of those before and after shots of a tank that does not have all the right conditions from the start.
I see Simon ‘C’ tank a lot and have seen no real change with the new method as yet. It’s a wonderful tank, but it always has been. Again because its always been run in the right way. Big skimmers (and getting bigger) , well set out and well maintained.
This is in no way a go at Trythechi or anyone else. But what it is , is a show me how you would not get the same results from not running Zeo or what ever else we call it this week.
On a personal note I have started to try using Vodka and this has had a very positive effect. But I do have a high bio load, I can’t afford the best equipment, I cant drive round the country hand picking the best corals. So any investment I do make in my tank needs to work and work on my type of setup.
I hope all who read this will get where it comes from and again this is not a go at anyone, just a counter argument to the one given here!
RichB.
rich, i am in a similar place as you, i dont have the space or the finances for a monster tank, that is one of the reasons i do nano... things dont have to be expensive, a bit of thought and inginuity goes a long way... vodka dosing is a great start did you see the tank i posted
http://www.reefaquariumguide.com/forum/member-tanks/101339-my-219g-reef-tank.html
this guy runs vodka and a commonly avalable zeolite, the zeo is simpy providing a massive amount of surface area... and an anerobic environment
simple set up, decent flow, DIY calcium reactor, good light and the simplest of probiotic systems...i think this is a stunning tank...
with a few enhancements this could easily be adapted into a more comprehensive probiotic system...
Hi Rich
Over the years I have looked at and worked on plenty of tanks some run by people with all the right equipment money no object and the right dedication yet still the tank is pants the coral colour is crap and it grows so slow as to be almost unmeasurable. I have seen other tanks that are scary the growth and colouration of the SPS is amazing you wonder how and why.
Doing what I call a properly run Zeolith tank like Simon's (trythechi) with good equipment diligent adherence to a proven system gives you a good basis for success as you are working to control your tank at a bacterial level to get nutrients very low and using elements to help the corals get the best colour. Certainly lith systems offer remove a lot of the variables of old style Berlin methods. In the end we are all chasing the same prize we just take different roads.
As for bank balances a poor man would look at your equipment list and say you spent all that money to keep a few fish. You can hardly call your equipment list shabby:D
regards Jez
SPS Hoover
14-02-07, 11:13
I see Simon ‘C’ tank a lot and have seen no real change with the new method as yet. It’s a wonderful tank, but it always has been. Again because its always been run in the right way. Big skimmers (and getting bigger) , well set out and well maintained.
Sorry Rich but i have to say I have seen a difference now its only sutitle but there is change. With the size of my system and the way I have slowly built up dosing, changes were never going to be dramatic. Now the changes have started I feel they will continue more. My sps look brighter(best word i can think of to describe change) growth of some now is crazy. Reason for difference in growth is new lighting postion which I need to address. Another difference is skimmer output which has tripled my 902 is filling up every week now, too the point where to keep it efficent i need to empty twice a week, as level at end of week stops skimmer working properly. I still have not reached full dosing, I currently dose 15ml bak/minS a day.
My opinion is the system is the way forward, and I recommend people to try it. I might have to consider bailing method now to keep up with calicum demand which has increased because of zeo IMO
i have to say I have seen a differnece now its only sutitle but there is change
Thats good to know Si as I know more about your system so I would hope I could see a change in it myself.
I guess where I comming from is "Is this the last tweak" or "Every reef should have one"......
As I said I have seen a big help from adding Vodka (£7 for 5 months worth).
Would I see any real change if I did this meathod (£30 for a month + 1 off equipment spend) without all the other bits around it (Big Skimmer, lots of flow).
What I am trying to help with are the number of people who might read this and think they can get the same results by using this system and then not spending there money on good equipment.
As Si C knows I tried running Zeo before on my old tank. The results where not anything like those shown on here. Mainly because I had pushed my equipment to it's limits and it was not up to making Zeo work.
I look forward to seeing these tanks in a few months time to see how the changes go.
RichB.
I am now on day 5 of using ProdiBio, already I am noticing that I am getting better polyp extension on some of my SPSs. No colour changes yet, but I wouldn't expect that at this stage.
Nothing else has changed in my tank, I haven't even done a water change.
Dave
HI
Rich
"As I said I have seen a big help from adding Vodka (£7 for 5 months worth).
Wish my vodka cost was that low if you include tonic OJ etc can do that in two days :) :) :)
But to cheer you up we have asked FM for some small sample size bottles these will be enough bak and a min to give people a free taster of what the products can do for their aquariums. These should be with us in the next few weeks so will put you on the list for a sample as most people find running Bak and Min takes them a good way down the road to Zeo heaven.
Jez,
Thats only the cost of what goes in the tank :D
If any wants to try "Jack Daniels" in the tank let me know how it goes as I have a bottle of that in the shed as well :rolleyes:
Thanks for the Samples..... I look forward to trying it.......
RichB.
bristlebasher
14-02-07, 14:25
I am now on day 5 of using ProdiBio, already I am noticing that I am getting better polyp extension on some of my SPSs. No colour changes yet, but I wouldn't expect that at this stage.
Nothing else has changed in my tank, I haven't even done a water change.
Dave
Stick with it - believe it takes 2 - 3 months to realy reap benifits.
I will be starting on prodibio soon also , waiting for it to arrive:rolleyes:- the less intensive dosing method it provides appealed to me. Might go the full zeo route further down the line.
Yes, I'v used it since arround about Xmas and noticed a few things:
Greater clarity to the water as you say;
PH stays at 8.1 at the lowest ebb;
Greater growth in coraline alage;
Greater growth of some (but not all) sps colonies. I dont know why this is as my DKH/CA/Mg levels are all at NSW levels.
I'm not sure I'v noticed greater impact of elements when combination dosed.
I'v not noticed that my little patch of cynobacter disappeared when combination dosing with bacteria. I'v just syphoned that out and will try again to see if combination dosing does the trick at preventing a return.
Cheers
Simon
I am currently trying out FM's Ultralith with UltraBac and ULtraminS. Can I use Coral Snow with these products by using UltraBac instead of the Korallin Bac. I would like to see whether it improves clarity and gets rid of patches of cyano.
Twistedpro
14-02-07, 15:15
Si, do you know what is in Coral Snow?? It's suppost to help make the water clearer but not sure how it does this. Also It contains a natural kind of Calcium, Magnesium & Carbonate, What makes them more natural??
Hi Zahira
I would tread carefully here as mixing and matching products from each range may or may not have the desired effect. Did you have the cyano before you started with FM, If its just appeared I would lower the min and bac and also check that you started with very low phoshates.
regards Jez
Hi
Having never seen Korallen Zucht snow I can only comment from what I have heard on other forums. The last time I looked it was a mixture of ultra fine carbonates dolomites etc.
For quite a few years Europeans have used fine powdered clays and other minerals directly into the aquarium to help certain situations or to act as a food carriers. FM have Ultra life that you can mix with foods to act as a carrier or simply dose as an absorber of nitrogen and phosphate wastes.
The Zeo product is a liquid form.
Sure Simon can put us straight on this.
Jez
I have another Jez,
Is it worth turning of the skimmer for a while after dosing the products, (could easilly be put on a timer) I know Zeovit recomend turning the skimmer off after dosing the bacteria and vitamins but not sure with the Ultralith system
Is there a danger the products may get quickly skimmed off before being utilised?
:D :D Only if you are not using a fauna marin skimmer as they are specially designed to not remove the companies products.:D :D
Joking aside I will have to ask Claude as many skimmers are quick to pull out certain substances. I see no problem in putting the skimmer on a timer.
regards Jez
Hi Rich
I agree with Jez - your equipment list isnt shabby!:) Good kit doesnt buy success, nor do these probiotic systems. Understanding what we are doing is the key, and even then one could be unlucky due to some unknown or unidentified variable, and not get results or experience a crash.
What we are doing is:
a) maintaining all the high standard SPS husbandary regarding chemical, biological, lighting and flow needs;
b) managing bacteria as the foundaton of the ecosystem;
c) paying greater attention to the alternative feeding and minor element needs.
Just doing it without haveing the conceptual framework and hoping for the best - well we may get lucky. Chances of success may be improved if we have some idea of how to feel our way forward. For me - thats why reef keeping is so interesting - its a continual learning experience - and I cant see the edge of knowledge at the moment - I dont even know what I dont know.
On the other hand - there is enough new knowledge and materials to take us forward a further stage.
The acid test for me, as it is for you too is what do these probiotic systems offer over and above high and exacting standard of husbandary? Thats an evaluation that can only be made in practice, but obviously informed by collection of anecdotal experiences of others. Some people are 'early adopters' and take risks others need a little more time and others still have other methods that work very well thank you very much:) Check out what doodie has achieved!
Claude from FM likened it to cooking, some can follow the recepy, and fewer still produce the truely spectacular dish that we all drool over.
Go with it - or not - its your reef:)
JMO
Simon
I am currently trying out FM's Ultralith with UltraBac and ULtraminS. Can I use Coral Snow with these products by using UltraBac instead of the Korallin Bac. I would like to see whether it improves clarity and gets rid of patches of cyano.
Hi zahira
It improve clarity and has just cured my cyno - took a fair few combination doses. I can see any reason why it wouldnt work with Ultra Bac - Coral Snow is not duplicating anything in the FM range that I have seen.
The main concern about using all these products is to make only one change at a time, with plenty of time to evaluate the impact. The temptation I fell into was to try to pucs it forward too fast, which resulted in some steps back. Slow steady progression would be my suggestion. Having said that - CS doesnt duplicate but enhances - so IMO its the exception to the rule.
Cheers
Simon
Si, do you know what is in Coral Snow?? It's suppost to help make the water clearer but not sure how it does this. Also It contains a natural kind of Calcium, Magnesium & Carbonate, What makes them more natural??
Hi Peter - I dont know. KZ dont discluse what they put in many products - unlike FM and Prodibio which iare much more transparent. I was interested to hear from Jez that this isnt infact new in Germany. It conatain very very fine - much finer than 'purple up' or crushed arragonite liquids, that quickly separate out into a clearish liquid and the heavier materials in the bottom.
I love the stuff whatever it contains - crack -cocaine probably:) I must stop using it just to see what happens - but I cant......lol
Si
is there anything special about the zeolitic materials ?? or are they merely being used as suppot media for anerobes..could you not use alphagrog or coral gravel to the same effect ??
that's the million dollar Question
from here
http://www.faunamarin.de/eng/ultralithsystem.php
ULTRALITH is a natural zeolite which efficiently removes ammonia from the water by its ion exchange properties. The ammonia enriched zeolite surface makes it easier for those harmonically selected bacteria in ULTRABIO to find settlement on ULTRALITH. Matched to the bacterias physiological needs we have successfully developed a nutrient solution to boosting bacteria growth on the zeolite. The three components of the ULTRALITH-SYSTEM provide you a effective and controllable nutrient reduction in the aquarium, a significant increase in coral coloration, and magnificent polyp extensions. Numerous test tanks document the unique success not only in the husbandry of stony corals.
How does Ultralith work?
Ultralith is a special kind of Zeolite, specifically chosen to reduce nutrients in reef tanks. But it is not just the Zeolite itself, it is the whole new method to maintain extremely low nutrient levels in marine aquaria.
Our filtration system is characterized by its simplicity. It’s not exclusively thought to produce pastel-coloured SPS corals but for general filtration and water purification as well.
Filtration with the Ultralith System can enhance the natural coloration of all corals.
It’s also suitable for maintaining water the quality in tanks, which are set up for keeping non-photosynthetic corals.
Combined with our special food (UltraBak and Ultramin S), Ultralith is a simple and safe method to keep even the most delicate and sensitive animals.
How to use the Ultralith-System?
Ultralith / Zeolite
The name "Zeolite" goes back to the greek words "zeo" (boiling) and "lithos" (stone). Upon heating, these minerals appear to be boiling.
Zeolites are minerals and consist mostly of silica and aluminium plus other elements like Sodium, Potassium, Iron, and Manganese. The most interesting feature of Zeolites is their crystal structure. You can think of it as a sponge with many small and large holes. Large and small should be seen in perspective of the scale, the small holes have the size of single molecules, about one billionth of a meter. The size of these holes depends on the chemical composition of the mineral. There are hundreds of different Zeolites known in nature and also many different synthetic Zeolites, Ultralith is a natural Zeolite. What makes these minerals so special is their ability to absorb specific compounds. Which compound is absorbed depends on the size and shape of the holes in the crystal structure, which is depending on the chemical composition. Therefore, depending on their composition Zeolites preferentially absorb different compounds. Ultralith is specifically chosen to absorb ammonium (NH4+).
However, thinking of Zeolites just as absorbers is a bit oversimplified. They are actually ion-exchangers. The holes to which a compound binds are not empty but rather filled with sodium or potassium. As soon as a preferred compound is available, another compound, usually sodium and potassium, is given off and the compound will be absorbed. This reaction, the replacement of one ion for another ion, is called ion-exchange. In marine aquaria the liberation of sodium or potassium and therefore the resulting ionic imbalance is negligible as they are major constituents of seawater anyways.
The absorption of ammonium is just one half of the story. The other half is where the biology comes in. As already mentioned, zeolites have a very porous structure; under the microscope they look almost like a sponge. The larger holes are much bigger than the small ones, about a thousand times bigger. This porous structure creates a large surface area for bacteria to settle on. As the ammonium is adsorbed by the crystal structure, the bacteria living on the Zeolite get their food delivered to their doorstep.
The overall reaction that takes place in a Zeolite filter is the removal of ammonium and its conversion into nitrogen gas, which goes off into the atmosphere. The removal of ammonium takes place in three steps, 1. Absorption of ammonium, 2. Oxidation of ammonium, 3. Denitrification.
1)As already explained, the ammonium will be adsorbed onto the surface of the mineral due to an ion-exchange process.
2)At the surface of each mineral grain, oxygen is still available. Here the ammonium is oxidised by autotrophic bacteria to nitrate according to the following formula
NH4+ + O2 + 3OH- = NO32- + 2 H2O
This process consumes oxygen, thereby creating an anoxic environment inside the mineral grains. If this would be the only process that occurs in a Zeolite filter such a system would actually produce nitrate, and its use for aquaria would be rather limited.
3)Deeper inside the mineral grain, heterotrophic bacteria will consume the nitrate that is produced in the outer layer. This process is called denitrification, and occurs in two steps, from nitrate to nitrite, and further to Nitrogen gas. The overall formula for both processes is given below
5CH2O + 4 NO32- = 4 HCO3- + CO2 + 3 H20 + 2 N2
Because this process is carried out by heterotrophic bacteria, they need to be fed with a suitable carbon source such as UltraBak.
But Zeolites can even do another trick! Inside the Zeolite filter, there is a small but constant abrasion of the material, which contains a lot of aluminium. These tiny particles bind phosphate. By leading the outflow of the Zeolite filter into the protein skimmer the abrasion is skimmed off, thereby removing phosphates from the aquarium.
The feeding of the bacteria substantially increases the bacterial biomass inside the filter, which again results in a binding of phosphate. Dead bacteria will either be removed by the skimmer or serve as food to some animals, especially filter feeders. Eventually the Zeolites will be clogged up by the bacteria. This is the reason why the material has to be exchanged regularly.
Ok, so the above is the sellers blurb:D , it's been discussed extensively over the years, I won't refer to the 'Famous thread' on RC:p , but here's a link to the most prolific 'independant sponsor/manufacturer free view';)
http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39298&highlight=zeolite
It's old hat, but compulsive reading If you are interested in knowing what actually happens in your reef!
so, do ya still think the zeolite claims in a marine environment are like the sellers make out?:D Money well spent ? Good/effecient husbandry ? or simply leading the fold astray (knowingly or unknowingly).
Whilst many are happy to spend another £30-40 a month for the latest 'potion', it helps if you research over and above anecdotal claims, which IMO serve little purpose, especially when you consider what the reefer has actually changed during the period!
So, that's me vented for the evening:D , 4 hours queing for a passport renewal, followed by the high commission for Visa's and immunisations to follow makes me wonder why anyone bothers leaving blighty:(
no dig at anyone, just venting, love ya really, I'll be better in the morning.
N
Ok, so the above is the sellers blurb:D , it's been discussed extensively over the years, I won't refer to the 'Famous thread' on RC:p , but here's a link to the most prolific 'independant sponsor/manufacturer free view';)
http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39298&highlight=zeolite
It's old hat, but compulsive reading If you are interested in knowing what actually happens in your reef!
so, do ya still think the zeolite claims in a marine environment are like the sellers make out?:D Money well spent ? Good/effecient husbandry ? or simply leading the fold astray (knowingly or unknowingly).
Whilst many are happy to spend another £30-40 a month for the latest 'potion', it helps if you research over and above anecdotal claims, which IMO serve little purpose, especially when you consider what the reefer has actually changed during the period!
So, that's me vented for the evening:D , 4 hours queing for a passport renewal, followed by the high commission for Visa's and immunisations to follow makes me wonder why anyone bothers leaving blighty:(
no dig at anyone, just venting, love ya really, I'll be better in the morning.
N
Hi N
I guess thats you out then:D This thread could move into attempting to prove or disprove the functional hypothesis for each component, and I guess that could be useful for people needing 'proof' before considering the approach. Will certainly be interesting reading.
Could I suggest that that is what is actually done - assemble peer reviewed literature for discussion, or ones own findings if one has access to labs and has the appropriate training.
I do appreciate that there are open Qs, but I also hope that we don't decend into what could be essentially a low quality pseudo achaedmic discussion that is nothing more than people 'venting' - enjoyable though that maybe for the venting author:D .
I wouldnt discount acedote, as quantative work is based on the assemblage of anedotal experience, standardising for confounding factors. Qauntitive work is 'proved' when it is continuously repeatable. Many of those already using these systems are experienced reefers with many years experience, and so may well have been stung by 'snake oil' in the past.
So please N - present the findings and lets dig deeper:D
Cheers
Simon
I have started reading through the US postings suggested here by reef clown nothing new there so far but its a long thread.
In the end some reef keepers feel the need for hard science as the one truth others are prepared to see what they see. Zeolith systems brought together many aspects of European reef keeping into a cohesive form. For example the Germans have long made use of things like clays, trace elements etc whilst the US has been extolling the benefits of getting rid of metals the Germans have insisted that the correct use of trace metals is essential for Zooxanthellae health and so that of the corals. With the Zeo systems we are long past the protesting and screaming stage as there are now many aquariums around the world who are having good results with these methods.
More later
Jez
Hi Zahira
I would tread carefully here as mixing and matching products from each range may or may not have the desired effect. Did you have the cyano before you started with FM, If its just appeared I would lower the min and bac and also check that you started with very low phoshates.
regards Jez
I had cyano a while ago. Upgrading to a Deltec 902 and using ozone 4 hours a day cured it. I have a fairly high bio-load. When I started using FM's Ultraleith and Ultra-Bio, I switched off the ozoniser for 3 -4 weeks as per instructions and the cyano came back. I have switched the ozone back on as before and the cyano is not too bad - just on the sand. The reason I thought mixing Coral Snow with UltraBac would be OK is because Korallin recommend mixing it with their Bac and I thought within certain parameters the bacteria in the two Bacs might be similar as the basic system is similar. The other option would be to change to Korallin's Bac and Coral Snow and still use Ultramin S as the S can be used independently of the Bac, although as I am using the Ultraleith zeo's it might be better to stick to FM's Bac . Your thoughts on the above????????
Forgot to add, I did check my phosphates on the Merck test kit and it was zero. I use Deltec's Rowa and phosphate reactor.
Just to add my 10 pence worth.
For me the system works. I have a nitrate problem which i have tried large water changes vodka etc with no joy, within 2 weeks my no3 problem has nearly halved also the water collum has never looked so clear.
I'm using the half system and slowly building the amount of lith i use.
I enjoy the challenge of something new and the experimentation.
I think it is like said before, if you are happy with what you got and it works for you then there is less of a reason to change and more of a reason to resist. However we all know all reefs are different and will all react in a different way to different things.
I think we should accept that for some this is not jumping on the next £40 per month band wagon but merely an experiment into something different.
I am using the FM products on the new farming systems. I am using Ultra Bak, ultramin s and ultra organic on the sps system and ultramin s and ultra organic on the soft coral system. Both these systems are run berlin style and have similar maintenance regeimes. The systems have only been set up a couple of months and I have only been slowly dosing FM products for a few weeks but if I notice anything particularly different or beneficial then I will post on here.
As a side note, although I don't doubt the benefit of these new systems but I have yet to see an aquarium using them then looks significantly better/more colourfull than can be achieved with a well run Berlin System.
Marc Foord
15-02-07, 13:06
For me the system works. I have a nitrate problem which i have tried large water changes vodka etc with no joy, within 2 weeks my no3 problem has nearly halved also the water collum has never looked so clear.
I'm using the half system and slowly building the amount of lith i use.
jiffy....can you give more details about what products/how you're using them please ? (PM if you like)
thanks
marc
Stinky Pete
15-02-07, 13:13
i'd like to know as well please jiffy
instantsquid
15-02-07, 16:16
Why PM? :confused:
I thought this thread was about getting people's experiences out in the open!
If i can work out how to cut and paste on here i will but there has been a fair amount of shall we say shouting people down and i'm not up for a beating.
J
Ok Here we go.
Tank is 30w 24h 15inch front- back 28kg l/r
150w halide, mc500 skimmer ca reactor auto top up. the sump is a small tank, I have to use micron bags to prevent micro bubbles changed every week to ten days.
Food 2 days on flake one day on meat rinsed.
I was running carbon and a UV.
Stopped all that and started using F marin.
Here is what i use.
Ultralith I have worked out my dosage for water, was easy as tub was for 1000l so i took a half as this was the rec amount. various ways uda and ultralith.de have different ways but i added 20% week one and then add 10% each week until I have added 100% of the recommended amount.
I then dose ultra min-s and ultra bac each day again starting out with 20% of rec dose and adding 10% as i add the extra lith.
Finally I dose ultra bio daily with despite all the websites saying capsules it's not. It's a liquid and i drop 5 drops per day.
Can't remember what you sys volume is but cost about £68 for all the bits. I initially had the lith is a filter bag in the sump if you do this make sure it is like the Aqua medic that has 1mm holes or the mulm won't be able to escape. I have now used a mineral water bottle drilled lots of 4mm holes at the bottom and put my return from phos reactor and chiller going through it so it gets some water with phos in and some without in order that the bacteria learns to use phosphate too. The eventual idea being that I can disconnect my phosreactor. That I am a bit sceptical about but will wait and see.
My no3 was around 50 and now according to the test kits it's much nearer 25.
I don't have many expensive corals so if it all goes tits then i haven't lost but i still feed a bit of coral food nown again.
Oh i turn my skimmer off for 1/2 hour when i dose otherwise it seem to get skimmed out.
I'm one for tinkering and got bored when i had constructed the tank so this is good cos i keep my hands out but can still tinker....
The next think i am thinking is the reactor would make life easier as Jez stated just shaking a filter bag would not clear the mulm but the rocks need to rub so i now stir then and aggitate them with a turkey baster.
HTH.
Any q's shout.
Steve
PS thought i should say... This so far.........is working for me it might crash tomorrow who knows take or leave bits as you wish but remember if you run a fuge this system will kill it.
__________________
instantsquid
15-02-07, 16:25
Excellent stuff, Steve. Thanks for the write up :)
Forgot to add my aquarium total volume is about 250litre.
Cheers
jiffy,
how much of each product do you add each day? ive got 180 litre capacity tank and am adding 0.3ml min s and 0.5 ml of bak
instantsquid
15-02-07, 17:07
I have an 800 litre water capacity and currently add 0.7ml of MIN S and BAK, but am still increasing by 0.1ml a week. I appreciate this is extremely low, but I'd rather take things slowly as my coral collection is really starting to come together now - the last thing I need is a tank wipe-out! Full dose for 800 litres is 1.6ml - 4.0ml of BAK, and 2.4ml - 4.0 of MIN S. Once I am at these minimum, but full doses (i.e. 1.6 and 2.4 respectively) I will stop increasing the dose. Note: I'm not yet running UltraLITH - that's to follow.
Twistedpro
15-02-07, 17:39
I Have a total system volume of around 300l and i dose 1ml of Bak and 1ml of Min S
My tank is 300l and I dose 1.5ml bak and 1.5ml min s daily. I then dose half a vial of bio once a week and switch my skimmer of for a few hours after dosing the bio, I did read somewhere that it was a good idea, but can't remember where. My lith is placed in the filter of my rio 300 and I take it out and give a good blast with a stream every couple of days.
I have noticed that the water is clearer and I am not cleaning the glass as often. Don't know if it is a coincidence or not but a leather coral I had for years started to disintegrate not long after starting, and I did bulid up the doseage slowly. However, I have now fragged that and the 4 frags I have left are growing quickly and are looking good. My rics do seem to have coloured up better, I am waiting on my new tank before trying any more SPS as they have never faired well in this tank.
With the new tank I am planning to continue using the FM range, including the skimmer.
Maestro & Ian.
I am now in week three so have added 40% of the total lith and dose 0.4ml of min-s and bac per day and 5 drops of bio.
I think when i get to 100% I will be 1.2ml of each per day that's if I worked it out right.............
I'm going to re read the bottles now to make sure I've got it right dum de dum.......
Ok Just checked. Max usage would be between 0.75ml and 1.25ml per day so i think i might throttle back a bit and keep it at around 0.4 until i am at 70 percent capacity of lith and then increase to 0.75 see what happens. As my bio load is fairly high might end up at 1.25 but will see what happens at 0.75 first. As stated I have already seen a slight change in NO3 and the colour chart is between 25 and 50 where it was always a defo 50 before I have checked this gain today and the result was the same so fingers crossed i'm on the way. Though i have heard things can take up to 6 months to get fully working. Though I am adding 5 drops of the bio per day. Nothing adverse seen as yet.
Maestro. I take it you are not using that much lith I am looking into a reactor i see you hangon looks really cool and i like the fact that it hangs on the side can you give us a clue the cost if i recall you had I aquatics make it for you????
Cheers
The reactor holds about 1/2 a litre of lith and is nearly full, I use 400ml on my tank.
Cant remember the exact cost, think is was about £70 plus postage
Quick question I hope....
I remember when I tried Zeo a year or so ago that it was very important to get the right amount of flow through the reactor.
Is this still the same and is it the same with the FM system.
The guys on the Zeo form always said this was a must (Danger of death) thing to get right but not seen it talked about on here.
In fact someone told me it would be fine not to even use a reactor and put the media in a filter bag in the sump!
Answers!
RichB.
Twistedpro
16-02-07, 09:22
I would say yes it s critical, i had the flow too high through my reactor and it caused a couple of frags to strip, turned the reactor down and they stopped.
Its something that i would really like to know why SPS will strip with flow that is too high, my nutrient level was already 0 before i added the corals, so i really dont believe that it caused by removing nutrients too quickly. I belive something else is going on
i had the flow too high through my reactor and it caused a couple of frags to strip, turned the reactor down and they stopped
Thats what happens....
Not even seen anyone on here give any info on flow. I could not work out why and not seen any data to say why!
What can the system strip from the water if what it's designed to strip has already been taken?
RichB.
SPS Hoover
16-02-07, 09:41
Zeo its 400ltrs/Hr/per litre of media
FM its 400ltrs per hour
Perhaps Claude could give his reasons why he has set it lower than zeo, and how it causes issues
Rich
Flow info given in previous posts - cheer up a bit eh?
The benefit of using a media - including zeolites - in a zeoreactor is that the media is shakable -dislodgeing mulm to use as food and for export via the skimmer - the latter could be seen as the equivalent of harvesting alage in a refugium?
The benefit of putting zeolites in a zeoreactor rather than passively is a bag in the sump, is that it will be easier to clean the surface of the stones ensuring they are not blocked, which in turn will allow the ion exchange to function, and take out ammonium.
MJB has done some interesting reading on this aspect.
Nitrogen and phosphates are continually being generated by feeding and dieing of bacs, plancton and other critters in the reef, so as I see it we need to constantly be on the case with nutrient export.
Cheers
Simon
Flow info given in previous posts - cheer up a bit eh?
Happy as larry mate :D
I just remember that when I started using the stuff I had to get the amounts to dose and flow just right or it all goes very very wrong.
And I would not like anyone to loose there SPS collection because they did not know the dangers or all the details.
It would be good if maybe you for Zeo and Si C or Jaz for FM put a set of "How to use" rules up on the board or in the thread.
It looks like lots of people are going to go down this route but as we have seen in the last few posts this can go wrong. So a guide for all would be good.
Other wise we might loose members to the Zeo forum:eek:
RichB.
Zeo its 400ltrs/Hr/per litre of media
FM its 400ltrs per hour
Perhaps Claude could give his reasons why he has set it lower than zeo, and how it causes issues
I didnt realise that :eek:
I thought the FM was the same as the zeo, 400ltrs/Hr/per litre, im using 400ml so worked out the flow to 160lph, should I increase the flow?
excessive flow will reduce the volume of anerobic "real estate" you have in the reactor
SPS Hoover
16-02-07, 10:51
Please always do all changes in your aquarium very carefully and follow the instructions!
In older tanks or in tanks with a high nutrient levels a reduction of phosphate with UltraPhos or Ultra Powerphos before the use of Ultralith is recommended. If you are unsure, please feel free to mail or call us. We are looking forward to help you.
Wash UltraLith before use. Initially, use a maximum of 500 g UltraLith per 400 liters of water (17ounces per 100gallons). After 30 days slowly increase the amount of UltraLith to a maximum of 1 kg per 400 liters of water (34 ounces per 100 gallons). Exchange one quarter of the UltraLith after 4 weeks.
Always use our UltraLith-Reactor or the Grotech Zeolite reactor for filtration with UltraLith. There should not be more than 400 liters per hour (100 gph) flow through the filter, too much flow in the UltraLith-Reactor is not advisable and may cause problems.
Especially in older aquaria or tanks with a high nutrient levels the amount of flow should be reduced because corals need some time to adapt to the lower nutrient levels.
Copied of FM site
Happy as larry mate :D
I just remember that when I started using the stuff I had to get the amounts to dose and flow just right or it all goes very very wrong.
And I would not like anyone to loose there SPS collection because they did not know the dangers or all the details.
It would be good if maybe you for Zeo and Si C or Jaz for FM put a set of "How to use" rules up on the board or in the thread.
It looks like lots of people are going to go down this route but as we have seen in the last few posts this can go wrong. So a guide for all would be good.
Other wise we might loose members to the Zeo forum:eek:
RichB.
OK mate - good idea I'll do that:thumbsup:
C. Schuhmacher
17-02-07, 07:23
Hi
We go lower trough the reactors cause we want to do it slower than the competitors
it depends on the tanks and how old they are to find the right flow and dosing of the Zeolith
If you put water in a tube then you have the same water flow at the end
If it goes to fast you can have problems with the corals so it is better to start very slowly
Greets Claude
QUICK guide to ZEOvit – see the full guide for details.
Zeoheads recommend high and exacting levels of SPS husbandary. This should be enough to get the best out of SPS right? Zeo has to prove itself over and above these standards as the acid test of its worth. If one is the type that spends a shed load of money and sees good results in even the faintest glimmer of a change, you are going to be happy. I'm the type that spends shed loads of cash, and goes critical.:rolleyes: Here is how the system breaks down:
Nutrient reduction:
All the usual husbandry i.e. intensive skimming, water change with RO/RI moderate feeding.
The zeo element in addition to this is to also provide a biological/chemical filter in the zeo-reactor which both reduces nutrients and provides bacteriaplancton. The use of zeolites for this has caused some controversy and the flow rate through the reactor appears critical, as too high a rate is said to cause TN by stripping out nutrients too quickly.
RECOMMENDATION: 1 ltr zeolites for 400ltrs net water volume. Flow rate no higher than 400ltr/h per ltr of zeolites. Less to begin with.
The other feature of the 'basic 4' is the use of regular balanced bacteria inoculations, bacteria food, and a carbon source. The theory is that in a closed system the bacterial guild become unbalanced over time with some bacs becoming dominant and some dying out. You could argue that the bacs that die out do so for a reason, as they don’t have the conditions to thrive, however what isn’t clear is the role of these weaker bacs as a plankton food source for other inhabitants.
I remain unsure of the value of the zeolites. Its unclear to me what the advantage is of these compared to letting the bacs /skimmer to all the work innutrient reduction. I wonder if its would be as effective to use similar sizes of LR in a zeo reactor to host the bacs.
Regarding the bacs - I have used both Prodibio and zeo bacs, and both have resulted in measurable reductions in NO3 and PO4.
The end result of the use of zeobasic 4 (zb4) is a nutrient limited environment, resulting in algae die back including the symbiotic zoos in sps. I can vouch for this IME. The result of symbiotic die back is that underlying colour can be seen. However, left at that there is a risk that sps become so nutrient deprived that they start to bleach - hence the importance of alternative feeding:
RECOMMENDATION: ZEObac: 1 drop per 100ltrs, 2 x pw; ZEOfood7: 1 drop per 100ltrs, 2x pw; ZEOStart 2: 1mls per 100ltrs day maximum, split dosing.
Alternative feeding:
Mulm :Shaking the zeolite daily (or LR pieces I would guess) produces bactoplancton. The water goes cloudy and Polip extention extends in response. This is critical to the system working. The resulting 'mulm' reflects the make up of the bac strains, bac food and carbon source, and so its nutritional value will reflect that. How one tests, other than through anecdotal experience - I have no idea:confused:
However both PE of SPS and growth other filter feeders is a sight to behold. The zooplanction in my refugium have multiplied extensively, and the sponges have grown considerably too.
Amino Acids: Fed after lights out, these are important to prevent bleaching. It takes a while to get the dose right to prevent bleaching or excessive darkening - but it does work.
Phols CV: Another food source - contents unknown. I stopped using this a couple of weeks ago just to see if it make a difference and the colors became less vibrant - still the same colors but more matt/dull.
RECOMMENDATION: AAHC and CV: 1 drop per 100ltrs per night.
Element management/additions:
Major elements are kept within the usual params for SPS tanks, with two significant exceptions:
DKH is recommended within 6-8 with users claiming higher can cause STN in this method. Obviously there are great tank with higher dDKH, but that is the ZEOvit recommendation for their system.
A focus on Potassium (K)has been a major recent development with the advent of a supplement and test kit. Most mainstream salts, with the exception of Seachem Reef are below NSW levels, and I have notice real gains in growth and vibrancy since paying attention to it. An interesting Q here is why do some tanks look superb without supplementing for K? I don’t know - maybe something to do with the zeolites, or the enhanced growth rates that can be achieved with this method? Its thought that the bacteria metabolism uses K in significant quantities, and as the system cultivates a large bacteria biomass, this is the main cause of depletion. I remain impressed in my reef though.
RECOMMENDATION: K Balance Strong: 1 ml per 100ltrs every 2 hours until NSW levels are reached. Maintenance dose is ITRO 1 ml 400 ltrs every 2-3 days.
Minor element additions:
ZeoSpur 2 and B Ballance: Real stars in the range - these expel zoos from SPS revealing underlying colour. So powerful, that you need to have mastered the above before even experimenting with caution. You don’t need to develop subtle powers of observation with these, but discipline is critical.
Macro elements: Replenishes elements and effects growth rates. Easily checked by with holding doses - the reef slows down.
Iron, Potassium Idodine, Floride, Iodine: Used to tweak colors. Again easily checked by adding or with drawing doses.
All this takes time money and energy to implement, and is not for those who want quick fixes, because:
1) OD on these can cause more problems than they solve so feeling one’s way cautiously is needed;
2) SPS respond to slow steady shifts in environmental conditions - that is their nature.
I’ve come off the fence to being impressed with the system after 8 months:ohyea: , and happy for any experienced SPS keepers with good colour already who are interested in the method to come an visit to assess for themselves.
It won’t turn genetically brown SPS into Oregon torts, and some specimens when introduced go down hill then re-emerge looking different but attractive, and its a joy to watch something with a hint of colour turn in a LFS turn out to be something quite special after a while.
Hope that’s interesting at least
Cheers
Simon
:playball:
instantsquid
17-02-07, 22:26
Excellent write-up/instruction guide, Simon. Can we persuade Jez to do one for the Fauna Marin system?
Excellent write-up/instruction guide, Simon. Can we persuade Jez to do one for the Fauna Marin system?
- Ian
Thanks Ian
We can be sure FM will be along behind with something:p .
Sorry Jez couldnt resist that:thumbsup: Competition is great for the hobbyist - drives down proces and promtes innovation:)
EnglishReefer
18-02-07, 10:08
How about the italian Blucoral method, anybody in the UK using it? :)
How about the italian Blucoral method, anybody in the UK using it? :)
Hi ER
that uses elevated params and HGHs to get phenomenal growth, so its a different category of method that doesnt focus on ultra low nutrients - there a thread on UR about it somewhere.
Cheers
SImon
I have recently started the Prodibio route following Simon's advice in another thread.
After adding bio-digest again yesterday I noticed that my nitrate reductor chamber went from being almost clear to completly white in the space of about 2 hours - ie. no bacterial evidence to massive bacterial evidence. I take it this is normal and won't have any side effects (e.g. sudden bac. die off causing water problems).
PS. In less than a month, nitrates down from 15ppm to 1ppm. Water has never looked better.
I have recently started the Prodibio route following Simon's advice in another thread.
After adding bio-digest again yesterday I noticed that my nitrate reductor chamber went from being almost clear to completly white in the space of about 2 hours - ie. no bacterial evidence to massive bacterial evidence. I take it this is normal and won't have any side effects (e.g. sudden bac. die off causing water problems).
PS. In less than a month, nitrates down from 15ppm to 1ppm. Water has never looked better.
Hi Spanner
great to hear it - if you have a decent amount of LR /LS - I'd take the nitrate reductor off line today and sell it while there is still a market for them;) The trouble with these reactors is that if the flow rate changes for one reason or another that effects the oxygen reduction conditions - it could result in bacteria die off - and the resulting pong will offend everyone. If the output is via the skimmer the risks to the tank will be reduced - but I do think its redundant to your needs if you have LR and LS in enough volume for the task.
cheers
Simon
OK - going off today then. Will monitor the nitrate level out of interest.
Thanks Tim.
This is a very interesting thread Simon, thanks for starting it.
Can I ask about some of the tweaking additives in the zeo system - particularly iron and iodine because we can easily test for these - what levels does Pohl recommend and how does this compare to NSW?
On potassium, is the goal NSW or is the optimum level somewhere else?
Finally, can I ask about feeding? Can phyto be used in such setups or would this be regarded as working against the low nutrient conditions you are trying to create?
Keith
This is a very interesting thread Simon, thanks for starting it.
Can I ask about some of the tweaking additives in the zeo system - particularly iron and iodine because we can easily test for these - what levels does Pohl recommend and how does this compare to NSW?
On potassium, is the goal NSW or is the optimum level somewhere else?
Finally, can I ask about feeding? Can phyto be used in such setups or would this be regarded as working against the low nutrient conditions you are trying to create?
Keith
Hi Kieth
Re Iron - the max dosing is recomended at 1 drop per 100ltrs, but varied according to effect. The effect on green SPS is more vibrancy, however the down side is that yellows could become duller. Iron is also used by bacteria and algae including zoox. I'v tried doing using the Sera kit as the marker - but prefer guaging the dosing to what I can see from SPS responce. Personally - I'v still to get the ballance between the effect on both greens and yellows - so havent settled into a rythm yet.
Iodine and Potassium Iodine Floride are both recommended at 1 drop per 100ltrs 2x pw, but again its best to guage amounts by effect including mushrooms. I'v tried dosing to salifert levels and cant get a reading - so dont bother anymore - I guess the iodine is taken out by the skimmer real quick. The efects are strengthening blue coloration, and those colors close to it on the spectrum.
RE K, yes the goal is NSW, with the visual excess dosing indicators being alage growth and SPS tip burning. Seachem Reff and KZ sals have NSW level K levels. Interestingly K is used in horticulture to stregthen bloom coloration - I wonder if there is a paralel?
According to ZEOvit the mineral elements have a greater observable effect once super low nutrient conditions have been achieved - so they can be used in other type of systems , but probably at higher dose levels.
RE Phytoplancton - Iwan used it to good effect when he was using Prodibio, but has since stopped. Aparently SPS diet is only 10% phyto, with the main benefit comming from it boosting zooplancton populations which sps can capture and consume. I guess - on the level of providing alternative nutrition once the zoox have died bac - it could be helpful. OTOH, survivability must be low in these aquariums as the bacs will have taken out the NO3 PO4. I'm not sure if phtyo or bacto plancton are faster at consuming NO3 or PO4. In any event - I'v had no urge to reintroduce phytoplancton since using this system.
If one was interested in experimenting with ZEO and phyto - I'd be tempted to keep dosing modest to begin with , and titrate upwards guaging by effect on coloration - but my instinct is to save on those costs too:)
Cheers
Simon
Re Iron - the max dosing is recomended at 1 drop per 100ltrs, but varied according to effect. The effect on green SPS is more vibrancy, however the down side is that yellows could become duller. Iron is also used by bacteria and algae including zoox. I'v tried doing using the Sera kit as the marker - but prefer guaging the dosing to what I can see from SPS responce. Personally - I'v still to get the ballance between the effect on both greens and yellows - so havent settled into a rythm yet.
Iodine and Potassium Iodine Floride are both recommended at 1 drop per 100ltrs 2x pw, but again its best to guage amounts by effect including mushrooms. I'v tried dosing to salifert levels and cant get a reading - so dont bother anymore - I guess the iodine is taken out by the skimmer real quick. The efects are strengthening blue coloration, and those colors close to it on the spectrum.
RE K, yes the goal is NSW, with the visual excess dosing indicators being alage growth and SPS tip burning. Seachem Reff and KZ sals have NSW level K levels. Interestingly K is used in horticulture to stregthen bloom coloration - I wonder if there is a paralel?
I suppose my question on K was whether there is an appreciable difference on the corals between say 80/85/90/95/100% NSW levels. Is there a tipping point at which growth suddenly drops off, or is it a smooth progression? Will I get noticeably better growth at 100% NSW than 90% say?
When you find what seems to be the right level for iron in your system it would be interesting if you could use the Salifert test and see how that compares to NSW.
Keith
I suppose my question on K was whether there is an appreciable difference on the corals between say 80/85/90/95/100% NSW levels. Is there a tipping point at which growth suddenly drops off, or is it a smooth progression? Will I get noticeably better growth at 100% NSW than 90% say?
When you find what seems to be the right level for iron in your system it would be interesting if you could use the Salifert test and see how that compares to NSW.
Keith
I think its a smooth progression after a tip point of ~325 (previously ~250ish) - the KZ test is broad range - so the actual values could be wider.
Thanks - looks like I'm going to have to invest in yet another test kit...
Keith
Reefer Madness
18-02-07, 18:55
O.k. so this is a really interesting thread, however Prodibio hasn’t had much of a mention so far.
Could anyone tell me if it would be worthwhile running the Prodibio system in my tank which will hold mainly zoanthids and possibly some ricordia?
cheers,
Pete.
Reef bloke
18-02-07, 19:52
Any feedback on the new bottled version of the FM Ultra bio and bio food?Ive just got some and gonna give it a try.Both of these are in little white bottles with silver labels.I take it a dont need the ultra bak as the bio food now does this job?
IIRC the bio in the white and silver bottle replaces the old fm ampules (which looked suspiciously like Prodibio) not the bak.
just to throw a spanner into the works...
my lfs sells 'hobby zeolith' for £3 for 500g......what if this was put into a bag in my sump (like FM) and then i dosed with prodibio....
in theory is this not the same as the FM system....at a fraction of the cost....
or is there a justifiable difference between £3 for hobby zeolith or £25 for FM version??
has anybody done this?
if i did it as an experiemtn what shud i look out for/concerned about...
be very very careful about what Zeoliths you put in, many are made for freshwater applications and can cause problems.
don't know where your buying your Fauna stuff, rrp of 1litre of the ultralith is around £13????? 25 sounds a bit steep.....
just to throw a spanner into the works...
my lfs sells 'hobby zeolith' for £3 for 500g......what if this was put into a bag in my sump (like FM) and then i dosed with prodibio....
in theory is this not the same as the FM system....at a fraction of the cost....
or is there a justifiable difference between £3 for hobby zeolith or £25 for FM version??
has anybody done this?
if i did it as an experiemtn what shud i look out for/concerned about...
Zeoliths aren't just a substrate for the bacteria - they also directly filter the water in their own right.
As I understand it different zeoliths have different properties and will tend to attract/pull out different elements. Thats why the zeo system uses a blend of 4 particular zeoliths.
The risk presumably would be that Hobby zeolith would pull out something you'd want to keep, rather than something you'd want to loose.
Keith
just to throw a spanner into the works...
my lfs sells 'hobby zeolith' for £3 for 500g......what if this was put into a bag in my sump (like FM) and then i dosed with prodibio....
in theory is this not the same as the FM system....at a fraction of the cost....
or is there a justifiable difference between £3 for hobby zeolith or £25 for FM version??
has anybody done this?
if i did it as an experiemtn what shud i look out for/concerned about...
If you get the hobby zeolite - place them in a bucket with tank water and check what happens to Ca, Mg. As others have said, there are many types of zeolites with different ION exchange properties, so check what the ion reaction sequence is with the manufaturer before placeing in a reef. Dont want to wake up to a tank of white sticks.
But in principle - theres plenty to gain from placing LR rubble in a DIY zeoreactor and dosing prodibio to that , with daily shakes. Please keep us updated if you do that.
BTW Nick at Coral Culure sells zeolites a little cheaper than the prices you have refered to.
Cheers
Simon
.....But in principle - theres plenty to gain from placing LR rubble in a DIY zeoreactor and dosing prodibio to that , with daily shakes. Please keep us updated if you do that......
Cheers
Simon
I plan to do this with some seachem matrix i have kicking about...
Hi
Been off at the weekend but I will do an overview guide for Fauna this week as there seems to be a little confusion as to which products ion the range to use.
Jez
Reefer Madness
19-02-07, 10:28
O.k. so this is a really interesting thread, however Prodibio hasn’t had much of a mention so far.
Could anyone tell me if it would be worthwhile running the Prodibio system in my tank which will hold mainly zoanthids and possibly some ricordia?
cheers,
Pete.
Anyone
I dont really see why you want to go to the trouble and expence of running probiotics to keep soft lagoon species thar are perfectally happy with some nutrients in the water... i am sure that this would work ok but just dont see the point...
I dont really see why you want to go to the trouble and expence of running probiotics to keep soft lagoon species thar are perfectally happy with some nutrients in the water... i am sure that this would work ok but just dont see the point...
Perhaps to allow high levels of feeding whilst restricting nutrient levels so avoiding nuisance algae problems? Well it's a reason!
Reefer Madness
19-02-07, 12:32
I dont really see why you want to go to the trouble and expence of running probiotics to keep soft lagoon species thar are perfectally happy with some nutrients in the water... i am sure that this would work ok but just dont see the point...
Like stevielad says, mainly for avoiding nuisance algae problems, i am just afraid that there might be some negative effect on the zoanthids, what do you think?
zoos absorb some of the nutrient they require through their ectoderm, i would say therefore it possibly isnt the best way to go
Reefer Madness
19-02-07, 12:42
zoos absorb some of the nutrient they require through their ectoderm, i would say therefore it possibly isnt the best way to go
Thanks for that mate, i guess i will still tag along even if you don't think this method would be good for a Zoanthid dominated tank, it is still interesting to read,
Pete.
O.k. so this is a really interesting thread, however Prodibio hasn’t had much of a mention so far.
Could anyone tell me if it would be worthwhile running the Prodibio system in my tank which will hold mainly zoanthids and possibly some ricordia?
cheers,
Pete.
Hi Pete
FWIW - my zoanthids and rics are doing very well in a full zeosystem - multiplying away and looking good color wise. The Zoas are becomming a pest TBH - nicer than manjos and glass anens, but expanding ther colonyies remorslessly.
Prodibio BIoDigest and BIOtpim would be suitable for a zoanthid tank as it would help reduce NO3 and PO4 reducing the amount of undesirable algaes. Once you have sparkling clean glass, rocks and sand, you can start feeding ReefBooster which results in impressive PE of softees.
The principle here is to achieve low nutrient waters, and also to ensure there is regular access to food.
If there is a heavy and established infestation of hair alage, keeping Rowa online and increasing water changes will help speed up the process. When sorted - take Rowa off line and save on those costs.
RECOMENDATION:
1 amp BioDigest for 1000ltrs or less every 2 weeks
1 amp BIOptim for 200ltrs every 2 weeks
Mixed noth in a glass of tank water and place after the skimmer in the sump.
Reef Booster: 1 vial per 400ltrs every week.
HTH?
Simon
A little lite relief::applause: A ZEOvit tank run for a few years by Alexander Girz.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC05340[1].jpg
More light relief:
A hydrid Prodibio /zeovit potions reef run by Iwan Lesser - T5s this time:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Iwan1.jpg
Someone thinking about something......:laugh: Captions invited........
Prize for the best caption: Dinner for two with Jez in Koln with free lederhosen, and induction into the inner circle voodoo/mojo ritual.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/Tom Tank1.jpg
Reefer Madness
19-02-07, 18:53
Hi Pete
FWIW - my zoanthids and rics are doing very well in a full zeosystem - multiplying away and looking good color wise. The Zoas are becomming a pest TBH - nicer than manjos and glass anens, but expanding ther colonyies remorslessly.
Prodibio BIoDigest and BIOtpim would be suitable for a zoanthid tank as it would help reduce NO3 and PO4 reducing the amount of undesirable algaes. Once you have sparkling clean glass, rocks and sand, you can start feeding ReefBooster which results in impressive PE of softees.
The principle here is to achieve low nutrient waters, and also to ensure there is regular access to food.
If there is a heavy and established infestation of hair alage, keeping Rowa online and increasing water changes will help speed up the process. When sorted - take Rowa off line and save on those costs.
RECOMENDATION:
1 amp BioDigest for 1000ltrs or less every 2 weeks
1 amp BIOptim for 200ltrs every 2 weeks
Mixed noth in a glass of tank water and place after the skimmer in the sump.
Reef Booster: 1 vial per 400ltrs every week.
HTH?
Simon
Hello Simon,
thanks for the detailed reply.
So in your opinion it would be worthwhile using Prodibio,...... o.k. so it's possible use in my tank is back on!
cheers,
Pete.
Hello Simon,
thanks for the detailed reply.
So in your opinion it would be worthwhile using Prodibio,...... o.k. so it's possible use in my tank is back on!
cheers,
Pete.
Could you post up a pic pls Pete?
A little lite relief::applause: A ZEOvit tank run for a few years by Alexander Girz.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC05340[1].jpg
You know what - i'm sure he could squeeze another couple of fans on there :D
Real purty :worship:
Keith
RECOMENDATION:
1 amp BioDigest for 1000ltrs or less every 2 weeks
1 amp BIOptim for 200ltrs every 2 weeks
Mixed noth in a glass of tank water and place after the skimmer in the sump.
Reef Booster: 1 vial per 400ltrs every week.
Sorry another question!
Do we know if the Prodibio recommendation of bolus dosing is offered for a particular reason do you know? I mean if you had a 2000L system would it not be better to use 1 ampule of Biodigest a week and 1 amp of Bioptim every couple of days?
Just trying to work out if there is an underlying reason for biweekly, other perhaps than the size of a dose in an ampule?
Sorry another question!
Do we know if the Prodibio recommendation of bolus dosing is offered for a particular reason do you know? I mean if you had a 2000L system would it not be better to use 1 ampule of Biodigest a week and 1 amp of Bioptim every couple of days?
Just trying to work out if there is an underlying reason for biweekly, other perhaps than the size of a dose in an ampule?
Cant see a reason not to split digest amps to weekly dosing if u need 2. I'd keep to the proportionate amount of TPIM though as this kick starts the bacs into action.
i am gonna do the opposite, i only have a 150 litre system, i dont see why they recommend the same dose for a tank that is 7 times bigger,
I am gonna open the vials and immediately overlay the contents with sterile mineral oil, the oil is inert and will do the same job as the nitrogen flush in the ampuoles i reckon i can make the kit last4 times longer that way and still be over doing the doses
i am gonna do the opposite, i only have a 150 litre system, i dont see why they recommend the same dose for a tank that is 7 times bigger,
I am gonna open the vials and immediately overlay the contents with sterile mineral oil, the oil is inert and will do the same job as the nitrogen flush in the ampuoles i reckon i can make the kit last4 times longer that way and still be over doing the doses
I think its just that it'll do no harm to dose 150ltr tank with a whole vial.
Interesting idea with the mineral oil. Do you have access to bac culture mediums to assess if the oil makes any difference to bac life and vibrancy?
Pls keep us posted:thanks:
I think its just that it'll do no harm to dose 150ltr tank with a whole vial.
Interesting idea with the mineral oil. Do you have access to bac culture mediums to assess if the oil makes any difference to bac life and vibrancy?
Pls keep us posted:thanks:
i ran the microbiology dept at portsmouth uni for a couple of years, it is a standard micro technique for providing anerobic conditions
the oil wont make any odds , i will simply draw the culture from below the oil with a hypodermic and syringe, then remove the needle befor expelling the liquid culture into my litre of tank water...
if they tell people they can use half doses then they will sell less kits.. simple as ..
Its interesting that you are concerned about air contact on prodibio as the FM Ultra bio is now just a super concentrate that is packed in a simple dropper bottle. It would seem that these cultures are produced in uber expensive 5 litre concentrates and repacked. I always thought the glass ampoule's was a bit of a gimmick on most of the products, other than commercially they only need to make a production run every couple of years due to long shelf life.
Jez
I may well do some experiments with shelflife...
crack open a vial, split it 3 ways,
1 under oil, store @ room temp
2 frozen
3 4 c , sealed but not anerobic
Take a 2 ul aliquot and dilute into 28 ul of sterile maximum recovery diluant plate out onto 2 agar plates, incubate one anerobically and the other aerobically .. count the colonies
repeat at weekly intervals for maybe a month
this will tell is if the vials are indeed a gimick or if they do stop degradation
It seems that cycling the reactor makes a big difference
couple of weeks ago nitrate was 15-20ppm, been cycling the reactor for a week, cut back on the min S but kept the bak the same and now just tested and nitrate is barely registering, probably about 2ppm.
Thats the lowest its ever been
Twistedpro
20-02-07, 13:02
i ran the microbiology dept at portsmouth uni for a couple of years, it is a standard micro technique for providing anerobic conditions
the oil wont make any odds , i will simply draw the culture from below the oil with a hypodermic and syringe, then remove the needle befor expelling the liquid culture into my litre of tank water...
if they tell people they can use half doses then they will sell less kits.. simple as ..
:confused:
Reefer Madness
20-02-07, 17:06
Could you post up a pic pls Pete?
Hello Simon,
the tank only has seven colonies at the moment and no fish, it is however suffering from diatoms on the glass and acrylic (since week two), here is the thread,
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192805
cheers,
Pete.
It seems that cycling the reactor makes a big difference
couple of weeks ago nitrate was 15-20ppm, been cycling the reactor for a week, cut back on the min S but kept the bak the same and now just tested and nitrate is barely registering, probably about 2ppm.
Thats the lowest its ever been
Interesting:thanks:
How does everyone keep a stable ph when the alk is so low? i,e 6-8
During the day my Ph peaks at 8.45 and at night it goes right down to 8.05, thats quite a swing but dont really know what I can do.
The testing would be interesting although a little time consuming.
As for the pH swings I think the main tools have to be good gas exchange and powerful skimming. Are the pH swings affecting the corals.
Simon what is considered ideal on a Zeo system
I wonder if the time of day for dosing the bacteria with food has a knock on pH effect.
Jez
maestro,
how are you 'cycling' your reactor??
regards
The reactor input pump is connected to a digital timer, 3 hours on 3 hours off
The testing would be interesting although a little time consuming.
As for the pH swings I think the main tools have to be good gas exchange and powerful skimming. Are the pH swings affecting the corals.
Simon what is considered ideal on a Zeo system
I wonder if the time of day for dosing the bacteria with food has a knock on pH effect.
Jez
Hi Jez
Havent read too much about PH swings in zeoland, but best SPS practice is to keep these narrow. IME, during the widest swing period of between 7.9 and 8.35 (even with the Bubble King), I still got the benefits of the system.
It was Claude from FM at the STM open day last year that prompted me to review this in my reef, hense the move over to the Balling Method.
Before this though, I'v found that Coral Snow is very effective at neutralising the acids in the tank, and since dosing it, the lowest point has been arround 8.1, which makes sense due to the aragonite in the DSB. Now the fluctuation is 8.1 to 8.3, so I'm not sure there is much to gain in respect of PH from Balling. Have my colors improved? - yes - has growth improved? - not sure - but I think so.
Having said that, Balling is just superb at being able to dial in the NSW values we are looking for .... but thats another thread:) Interestingly, while making the transition from CaRX to Balling, my DKH went as low as 4.5, but PH never dropped below 8.1. Its hard to know for sure - but I think CS was to thank for that.
Cheers
Simon
I take it, it remain submersed, I tried this with the grotechs but they back drain and the media is left dry, which i imagine is not good......
I take it, it remain submersed, I tried this with the grotechs but they back drain and the media is left dry, which i imagine is not good......
Ebay have non return values listings that may help? Maestro has it easy in this regard as his is a HOB reactor:)
I take it, it remain submersed, I tried this with the grotechs but they back drain and the media is left dry, which i imagine is not good......
Yes im lucky on mine the media remains submerged
Right, thanks to Reef Encounters just ordered one of these to fit the eheim on the grotechs!!
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/non_return_valve.jpg
:thumbsup:
Just an update.
Week 3 nitrates still coming down slowly, test kit now much nearer the 25 mark.
Coral growth especially the sofies i fragged a couple of weeks ago going mad.
The one acro i have i have never seen the polyps extended as much as in the last couple of days.
Waiting for I~Aquatics to re-open after the chinese new year to buy a zeo reactor.
For future readers of this thread -here a link to some stunning tanks where probiotics and zeolites are used:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=201734&page=2
edit-scoob-to fix link :)
edit 2-scoob- :D :D now followed link, a fine choice sir :D
The link doesn't work for me!!
John
aagghhhhh me neither not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm guessing he's trying to link to Scoobs Netherland thread.
Keith
Yep, just noticed trythechi has 2 https at the beginning of the link - took one of 'em out and bingo! Great read!!!
John
I may well do some experiments with shelflife...
crack open a vial, split it 3 ways,
1 under oil, store @ room temp
2 frozen
3 4 c , sealed but not anerobic
Take a 2 ul aliquot and dilute into 28 ul of sterile maximum recovery diluant plate out onto 2 agar plates, incubate one anerobically and the other aerobically .. count the colonies
repeat at weekly intervals for maybe a month
this will tell is if the vials are indeed a gimick or if they do stop degradation
icky
i would be interested in your findings as well. I run a 140 litre system and dose one vial of each every other week. Been on the go for about 4weeks now but have noticed a surge in growth and some of the brown acro's colouring up to a metallic green, which looks fab. But to get away with less dosing and reduced costs would be good.
Right Guys, finally got to the end of this topic, and boy did it take a while.
I have one simple qiestion i think.
My tank is 16 weeks old, all levels are zero bar nitrate which is at 5-12ppm, and phosphate at no more than 0.03. I want to go down the prodibio route first, so went to www.prodibio.fr, and one here they have a all rounder kit called the BIO KIT REEF, with combines all their products. Would this be a good starter kit for me? Or, there is a UK company selling the BIO DiGEST. Does any of the sponsers on here sell it, if not can someone PM me, and this looks really good.
Hi Craig
The BIO REEF kit has vials that may not be in proportion to your size of tank, and also contains Sr and I2 vilas which may or may not be useful depending on what you are keeping.
Cheers
Simon
Thanks Simon, looks like Bio Digest as I believe this will be better for me (Nitrate and phosphate).
Thanks Simon, looks like Bio Digest as I believe this will be better for me (Nitrate and phosphate).
Hi Craig
1 amp bidigest per 1000ltrs every two weeks (last longer if you go with iky's idea)
1amp BIOTPIM per 200ltrs every 2 weeks.
Thats the minimum - to get the benefits
Add in Reef Boster 1 amp per 400 ltrs every week a few months down he line
cheers
Simon
Will do, but I am finding it hard to find a supplier of all these additives. Anyone here know of a company that sells all the above???
Will do, but I am finding it hard to find a supplier of all these additives. Anyone here know of a company that sells all the above???
Did you find a supplier? I sourced some off ebay. There is also an aquatic suppplier in the UK - google Prodibio
I know of a good online Uk suplier for all prodibio stuff, they are not a sponsor but if anyone wants their website pm me.
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