Ultra low nutrient systems and skimming

[Tim Parkinson]

This is possibly a daft questions but if a nutrient low system is running what role does a skimmer play?

what size is needed? is it still bigger the better or is one rated for the system volume going to be ok?

can these systems be run without a skimmer?
:thanks:

[trythechi]

Hi Tim

The skimmer's role is to take out no3 and po4 laden bacteria. The idea that one needs Uber skimmers has taken hold mainly because of the interest that lots of ZEOheads have in Bubble King/GroTech monsters. However, when you look at how much skimmate Alexander G is now taking out (ie very little), I'd say one would just need a good efficient skimmer with some headroom for your size tank is all thats really needed.

I fell into the Uber skimmer trap myself, and changed from a APF600 to a BK200, and am sorry to report that the latter doesnt take out much additioonal kak. The BK is much easier to adjust for wet skimming - which is recommended, and could handle a major crash in fish deaths, but I wouldn't say you need to go mad on skimming.

Cheers

Simon

[Tim Parkinson]

Thanks Trythechi, very helpfull as per usual.
not only that i was looking at skimmers and having trouble finding one i both would be happy buying and would fit now i know it does have to hold another 100gallons the job has become a lot easier.

great stuff :dance:

[Shiva]

Ultra low nutrient systems that operate on only a skimmer and liverock (Berlin, doooh) imo DO need a ''big'' efficient skimmer.

[trythechi]

Ultra low nutrient systems that operate on only a skimmer and liverock (Berlin, doooh) imo DO need a ''big'' efficient skimmer.


Hi Shiva

Interesting - why do you think that is?:thanks: Edit: Is it because ultra low nutirnt systems (ala Berlin method) don't have the bacteria assistance to no3 and po4 extraction?

Many thanks

Simon

[jez]

Hi
I am with Shiva on this one, my understanding is for the following reason

. The level of cellular respiration and the associated wastes from all those lovely bacteria need to be removed from the aquarium. Also the higher bio load benefits from the gass exchange offered by a big skimmer.

An obvious factor is what level of catch up are you playing with older tanks being converted if there is a big build up of rubbish then skimate will be heavy. If the tank is new and run with Zeo from the start one would expect lowe levels after a break in period.

Your comments about little skimmate in older systems this is common in a lot of older systems Zeo or ordinary. Many systems with a reasonable stocking density reach a balance.

Jez

[PeterC]

Interersting

So as I run a d+d nano with FM additives should I really be looking into skimming as well to remove the bacteria waste?

Pete

[trythechi]

Hi
I am with Shiva on this one, my understanding is for the following reason

. The level of cellular respiration and the associated wastes from all those lovely bacteria need to be removed from the aquarium. Also the higher bio load benefits from the gass exchange offered by a big skimmer.

An obvious factor is what level of catch up are you playing with older tanks being converted if there is a big build up of rubbish then skimate will be heavy. If the tank is new and run with Zeo from the start one would expect lowe levels after a break in period.

Your comments about little skimmate in older systems this is common in a lot of older systems Zeo or ordinary. Many systems with a reasonable stocking density reach a balance.

Jez

Whats are your observations in practice though Jez? I ask because the bacteria are housed en masse after the skimmer in the chain and do the rounds of the tank before being skimmed out.

Although the gas exchange reason is a good one in theory, in practice - it is only an issue if we have a bacterial bloom that clouds the water, and that can only happen if there is a food source to enable such a bloom to take place - again in actual practice - this can only happen if nutrient loads are terrbible and we OD on the carbon source - or even more Zen like - don't OD on carbon:thumbsup:

Yes the sytems need a good efficient skimmer, but have you any examples of Fauna Marin failing to deliver its potential without an Uber skimmer? I'd be surprised if there were any - but happy to be proved wrong.

Sure, in actual practice, skimming out bacs via a skimmer set to wet will produce much more skimmate for as long as there is a residual nutrient load to sort, but with a decent normal skimmer it just means cleaning the cup and neck more often. Cleaning the neck needs to take place regularly in the first few months anyway to maximise efficiency of the skimmer and therefor bac extration.

I'm not trying to down play the value of the new FM skimmers - they look like wonderful kit - but its also quite possible to get significant results from common or garden skimmers with probiotics, if they are otherwise considered good for non probiotic systems.

For a further practical example - check out Iwans skimmer specs before the upgrade - theres no uber skimmer so be seen:applause: . Good news for many I think;)

Another arguement for massive air flow is the PH range - particularly the low point. Bacs can produce acidic pressures on the system, but just putting an oversized skimmer on doesnt resolve that per say....and if money is limited there are other cheaper solutions to PH management.

Anyway look forward to examples of the contrary - we live and learn:)

[jez]

Hi
In all honesty I have probably got a bit drawn in to the big skimmer metality as in the shop you do need to specifiy a good skimmer to help over come the beginner who is perhaps not going to heed good advice and simply go out and buy nemo dory and all his mates in the first month of setting up the tank.

A friend of mine who converted to FM awhile back is currently getting my close attention and to be honest he has made fair progress using only a turboflotor multi on a 5 x 2 x 2 with a higish fish load.

If I stopped doing this and answering endless emails and pms perhaps I would get my own little project started.:)

I very much doubt you could play down the effect of FM skimmers at the moment as I feel a bit like a pornstar every time I get it out it people just stop and stare and want to stroke it :D

As for the oxygen thing I think you might be missing the point a little here. If you have a bog standard berlin system with 100 bacteria present they will respire and use oxygen at a certain rate as they go about doing bacteria type things. If you then feed them with crazy food sources and there numbers double there respiration will use twice the amount of oxygen and produce double the waste.

This historically has been a problem with koi pond where people build very large submerged filters that can pull out the oxygen from the water. Hence the love of waterfalls and other stuff to keep koi ponds well oxygenated when returning the water to the pond and in commercial system the use of degassing towers and other stuff.

This is not to say that simply agitating the water well through the sump.

As I say my friend is going to be trialling the FM skimmer in a couple of weeks so will see if there is a major difference. As you say I probably think that people are doing OK without running out and buying XXL skimmers but I still find that when I look at a good system there is usaully a bit of serious skimming involved.

The real acid test is if I offered you the money you paid for the bubble king back. Along with your old AP600 would you do it. ?????

As for Peter C well you just keep on breaking the rules my friend looks like you are doing fine last time I heard.:applause: :applause: Although there are a few small nano's skimmers that you could consider but water changes are still my fave for nano tanks

regards Jez

[trythechi]

Hi

The real acid test is if I offered you the money you paid for the bubble king back. Along with your old AP600 would you do it. ?????

regards Jez

Thats a good Q:laugh: If its a serious offer - I'll give it some serious thought:thumbsup: :thanks:

Thanks for the reminder about the 02 aspect - got that first time - not an issue that I could distinguish between the APF and the BK, and O2 depletion due to excessive bac blooms can be avoided by regulating carbon - at least in the ZEOvit system.

Cheers

Simon

[jez]

Hi
Well its a serious hypothetical question :D
As I said I am probably being a little over cautious mostly worrying about people screwing up and someone saying ohh you should have stuck a really big skimmer on if were serious about Zeolith :D

As I said my friends tanks holding up with a flotor so it would seem in practice more of a Zeo fad than a scientific reality. As you say if the increase in carbon source is gradual everything should adapt quite well.

More soon Jez

[PeterC]

HI Jez

Good to see you earlier...thanks for the compliment :worship: I think

As discussed the little puddle seems to be doing fine.

I've had to start feeding the corals properly as the started to lose some colour, this I assume is down to the lack of nutrients in the tank.

I am running with 15o garms of Lith and am dosing 0.2ml od Bak and 0.3ml of UlraMinS everyday.

If I wanted to make up a diluted solution of the additives should I use salt or plain water? at say 10:1 it would dosing a lot easier

I have just got a second D+D this will be my complicated tank a Sapphire skimmer and a Seio 2400 are in and running, and a lighting upgrade is on the way. I want to push this one as far as I can.

It's been running with UltraLith in chamber 2 since it got wet and now the LR is in I will start dosing with UltraBak. I assume the UltraMInS should wait until stock is added

I'll keep you posted on it's progress

Pete

[Shiva]

Jez & Simon;

There are severals ways to achieve perfection, but I haven't found anyone yet that could tell me wich way is best ;) :D .... All the STABLE low-nutrient (Zeo) tanks I know, are all running massive skimmers. Offcourse there are exceptions, but I can count them on one hand.

I'll be starting up my 50L mini-Zeo-tank shortly, I'll be sure to post some pics and write some stuff down for you guys .

Here's a quick peek (http://www.zeewaterforum.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70572)of my custom-made 1/8L Zeo-filter (EheimCompact 300); isn't it qute :applause: ?? I'll also be running a custom-made skimmer (EheimCompact 1000).....

[trythechi]

Nice reactor Shiva:) What's the position in Holland regarding Fauna Marin? Do you see many tanks run with that system - any links please?

Many thanks

Simon

[Shiva]

Hi,

To be honest Simon, I never heard of it before I visited UR :o ... I only knew FM made Dendro-food and T5's, hahahaha...!

Maybe a lame question, but; Is there a difference between the KZ and FM-method?

Zeovit is on a re-entry tho, with some stunning tanks as result (you DID read the ''Dutch'' thread, right)?
On Zeovit.com you can find some dutchies too....

Thanks, I'm kinda proud of it also :laugh: !

Regards

[trythechi]

Hi Shiva

Yes - seen the Dutch thread - some inspirational tanks:) I wsh I went along on that trip;)

From what I'v seen of the FM range - the basic 4 has the same components as the original ZEOvit basic 4, but the two systems diverge after that - was just interested if there are any hobyists tanks that have used the FM system for a long time to help inform this Forum.

Cheers

Simon

[Shiva]

Hi Shiva

Yes - seen the Dutch thread - some inspirational tanks:) I wsh I went along on that trip;)

From what I'v seen of the FM range - the basic 4 has the same components as the original ZEOvit basic 4, but the two systems diverge after that - was just interested if there are any hobyists tanks that have used the FM system for a long time to help inform this Forum.

Cheers

Simon


Hi,

Sorry, I don't know anybody who uses the Probidio/FM-range in the lowlands.

Zeovit seems to be the way to go nowadays.

Cheers