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Can anyone give me an idea of cost for this system -
I have a 450l system, medium stocking density?
Out of intertest the guide seems to concerntrate on SPS corals and colouration etc - I assume there is no reason why LPS and softies don't benefit??
Can I have some help with this...thanks in advance.........
Jon
SPS corals are reef crest species, they come from low nutrient, high oxygen and at times high food environment, lps and softies tend to ihhabit lagoon type environments that tend to be richer in doc and nutrient... many soft corals have been shown to absorb nutrients through epidermal tissues...
it may not harm the corals per say but it might not be the best environment for them to thrive in...
Thanks - I am planning to get more SPS' as time goes on - has anyone actually worked out the monthly cost for example.....
instantsquid
07-03-07, 13:27
has anyone actually worked out the monthly cost for example.....
Most people prefer NOT to work out what anything in this hobby costs - if we did, we'd never try anything new! :laugh:
for a 450l aquarium I reckon you are looking at around £300 a year on the FM system
With ZEOvit on 450ltrs net:
Basic 5:
1 ltr zeolites every 6 weeks x £9.97 = £80pa
0.5 ltr carbon every 4 weeks x £12.50 = £75pa
ZEObac 4 drops every onther day = 25mlpa = £22pa
ZEOfood7 4 drops every other day = 25ml pa = £8pa
ZEOStart2 2 mls pd = 730 ml pa = £51 pa
Basic = £216pa or £18 pcm.
Feeding
CV - 4 drops pd = 50mls pa = £20 pa
AAHC -4 drops pd = 50mls pa = £19pa
Running Total = £255 pa or £21 pcm
Elements:
K ballance Strong = 1 ml pd = 450mls = £27pa
B Ballance = 4 mls pd = 1450 mls pa = £84pa
Coral Snow = 4mls pd = 1450mls pa = £87pa
£453 pa £38pcm
So a ready rekoner is that to run the full ZEOvit system is arround £8.30 pcm per 100ltrs. There will be variations up and down from that depending on how one tweaks - but I think thats a reasonably fair estimate for budgeting purposes. The elements like Iron, PIF and Spur 2 aill add more but not so much as these are less routinely added - but add approax £0.50p pcm per 100lts to be on the very safe side.
Interesting - I'v not added it up before - delete from SWMBO eyes:)
HTH
Simon
Hmmm.... so that would be £415 a month for my 5,000 upgrade - gulp!
WOW, for me that's alot of money...Is there a half way measure or is it all or nothing -
Hmmm.... so that would be £415 a month for my 5,000 upgrade - gulp!
Thats the trouble with v large systems - v large bills:D. You could experiment with LR rubble as a substrate, prodibio bacs and use vodka as a carbon source? Its probably even possible to cultivate bac strains for harvesting. We need MJB's input here for a good DIY bac culturing procedure.
WOW, for me that's alot of money...Is there a half way measure or is it all or nothing -
Its fine to use the basic 5 + the 2 feeding elements - the elements take it further but its not compulsorary by any means. Don't forget to subtract the costs of any PO4 removers and other potions if used. Again try the LR rubble and prodibio route in a zeoreactor - would work out cheaper.
I'm out of toutch with Prodibio prices but they are ITRO £27 for 30 ampules pr approx £1 per amp. For a 450 ltr reef, you'd need 2 amps pm biogigest and 4 amps bioptim, so £6pcm or £72 pa. Add in another £39 pa or £3.25pcm for Phols CV and AAHC and that would certainly take your SPS to new heights and keep your reef nice and clean.
Simon,
The web link you gave me for these items does not seem to work, do you know the new link by any chance?
Ok sounds interesting - Am I right in saying then the substrate is any pourous material which could host bacteria - if this is the case can some of the ceramic chunks be used, these would be easy to interchange and renew???
Is there a UK stockest of all these products?!
Thanks
Ok sounds interesting - Am I right in saying then the substrate is any pourous material which could host bacteria - if this is the case can some of the ceramic chunks be used, these would be easy to interchange and renew???
Is there a UK stockest of all these products?!
Thanks
Yes any porous substrate would do - I was thinking about siporax, but not sure if the glass dust would be harmful. You wouldnt need to exchange this, just keep the same media in all the time. The reason for exchanging the zeolites is that they loose thier ion exchange (annomia/um absorbtion) capacity after a while.
Clearly an inert material wouldnt provide this element, but the bacteria would feed off nitrogens and phosphates and be exported via skimming after the inert material was shaken of the 'mulm'.
I dont know how much of a disadvantage not using zeolites would be in practice, but it hangs together as plausible enough in my mind. Prodi alone is effective - so shaking an inert media will be an improvement as it gets the no3/po4 laden bacs into the water colum for coral feeding then out via skimming.
Coral Culture has the zeovit elements, and a link for prodi has been made on another thread.
nope, the zeolites sequester ammonium ions...
nope, the zeolites sequester ammonium ions...
.....take in amonium and give out other elements in exchange- the practical effect is the same as absorbtion for our purposes of maintaining ultra low nutrient systems.
The interesting Q in my mind is what are the advantages of amonia absorbtion, compared with letting the bacs do all the work. Havent found a theoretical answer to that so far.
Icky - can you offer any thoughts/suggestions on culturing bacs to harvest for regular innoculations. for those of us with 5000ltr reefs?
Cheers
Simon
I assume you mean from a producing it for much cheapness ...
I need to know more about the populations of bacteria in these probiotic systems...
i will maybe have a play in the lab ith the prodibio stuff, i have access to some diagnostics testkits etc... i will keep you updated
I assume you mean from a producing it for much cheapness ...
I need to know more about the populations of bacteria in these probiotic systems...
i will maybe have a play in the lab ith the prodibio stuff, i have access to some diagnostics testkits etc... i will keep you updated
Suggest you link up with MJB - he's cultured all three already - may save some time....?
Simon,
You have a pm mate. :)
HOLY CRAP, £100 per month for me to change :o
you know what, i always preferred the berlin method, never liked colour much, maybe a couople of nice sarcos instead, yes that's a plan.
HOLY CRAP, £100 per month for me to change :o
you know what, i always preferred the berlin method, never liked colour much, maybe a couople of nice sarcos instead, yes that's a plan.
Lol:whistling: Fish - thats the thing - oh and algae - underated IMO:laugh: Makes one appreciate just how rich our Dutch freinds are.....
Simon,
You have a pm mate. :)
Hi John
It was SiC who gave you the link
Cheers
Simon
Hi John
It was SiC who gave you the link
Cheers
Simon
Simon,
You pm'd me the link some time ago, ill send you what you sent me via pm, it does not seem to work anymore.
Jez:wave:
we just need costings for FM for completness of this thread......:thanks:
Cheers
Simon
Hi
I thought about it last night got scared got tired and thought better of it :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Will throw it into excel later. I also think with these types of systems it is worth also factoring in what you can do away with. Such as heavy use of Rowaphos lower lighting etc.
I have always believed that marines should be available to as many people as possible as there is great enjoyment to be had and time has often shown volumes of money have never made a good reef tank they have made for a very cool pile of equipment to drool over. :D :D :D
So although I reckon the week on week cost to be similar to that provided by Si for those that are running for the hills look at what you are going to not have to buy especially if you start from scratch.
Also with the FM system it really just comes down to 2 bottles with most of the ingrediants blended into the Min S (121 at the last count or some silly number)
more later
Jez
Suggest you link up with MJB - he's cultured all three already - may save some time....?
I am aware of Nitrosomonas europea, Paracoccus denitrificans & Nitrobacter winogradskyi, however it is likely there are more in there...
i have been reading papers recently than suggest that heterotropic bacteria such as parracoccus dentitrificans will out compete the nitrosomas and nitrobacter...
Indeed the more i read the more i think that nitrosomas and nirobacer are in fact inappropriate organisms for the job in hand, nitrospira type orgs are more likely candidates,
the biggest proble we face is if you observe the bacterial population in 1 mil of seawater there are billions of cells there, however in the lab we can only get between 1 and 3% of them to grow and most of these are heterotropic organisms that simply arent too fussy about nutritional sources
i will pm MJB and see if he is happy to share his monocultures, if not i can either sorce them from the national culture collection or isolate them from prodibio i have access to some nice fermentation kit that could lend itself nicely to producing batch quantites...
I am aware of Nitrosomonas europea,
i will pm MJB and see if he is happy to share his monocultures, if not i can either sorce them from the national culture collection or isolate them from prodibio i have access to some nice fermentation kit that could lend itself nicely to producing batch quantites...
Excellent :thumbsup: Mark also suggested he had identified a food source too.
Do you have access to facilities that can identify chemical elements in solutions?:thanks:
we have hplc gc/ms...
My prodibio isnt here :angry:... after 4 weeks i finally got a package and they have sent me 30 ampuoles of reef booster.......
So it may be a while until i can look into this....
Hi all
This forum has gone dead as a dodo since the full ZEOvit running costs went up - I wonder why? :laugh:
I just thought it would be helpful to set out our options here: ZEOvit has been critised for being priced too high - which undoubtedly makes it inaccessable/undersirable for some. However the principles behind the approach have been tried and tested, and so IMO creative reefers can take the principles and find more cost acceptable solutions to getting the benefits.
Its not the brand that matters - but the functionality - finding a different means to the same end.:thumbsup: We all suspect that suppliers see 'Reef' as a reason to place the products at a certain price point due to market conditions rather than % profit on cost. Without passing any comment on all the factors at play, we have it in our hands as hobbyists to use other non 'Reef' markets to procure what we need at different prices. T5 lighting is an example, as is the use of dry chemicals from the pharmaceutical industry to make up our own potions ie balling salts versus commerical 2 parts.
Options for the creative reefer:
1) Use the full monty @ £8.30 per 100ltrs pcm. Recommended only to be phased in over 6-8 months if you see a benefit;
2) Intermediate ZEO: Use the basic 5 plus foods @ £4.60 per 100ltrs pcm. With will achive very good benefits in nutrient limitation and color improvement;
3) Basic ZEO: Use the basic 5 @ £4 per 100ltrs pcm. Again this will achieve very good results in nutrient limitation and color improvement. Feeding will need to be addressed in other ways. THis is entirely possible with commonly available high protean food;
4) Hybrid System A: Use prodio bacs and Biotpim over inert non zeolite materials: This will still gain the benefits of bacteria outcompeting alage for no3 and po4, recurculate the bacs for coral nutricion and make them available for export via skimming;
5) Hybrid system B: Achieve ultra low nutrients through other means and use the potions to take coloration further. Eg doodies reef;
6) Home brew bac cultures, bac food and vodka used with inert substrate in a zeoreactor.
Please add any further options I havent thought of, and appologies in advance to suppliers. Lets see what market forces can produce given we are a hobbyist lead hobby (as opposed to photography which is an industry lead hobby):)
HTH
Simon
Tim Parkinson
11-03-07, 14:14
I'm probably not the most qualified to comment as I'm not running/tried any of the systems but ill add mine anyway as I'm interested.
the main two areas i can see that are questionable are the carbon use why use carbon from kz is there a special reason?
i thought this could be substituted for a synthetic one (eg purigen) lasts around 6 months probably more in a zeo system and costs less to start with.
the next idea would be the zeolite renewal haven't found out how it works but my initial understanding is that ammonia is bound by ion exchange is this permanent?
i cant really see why it needs the exchange as if bacteria colonise the media then break the ammonia down wont the media then bind (probably the wrong word) newly produced ammonia or other ion that later on is exchanged for more ammonia?
or just use something inert I'm sure a lot of people have some left over bioballs or other media.
I'm probably way off as this is all new to me at the moment but I'm interested in the answers
Hi Tim
ZEOheads recomend KZ carbon because they think it is less agressive in taking out the elements compared with other brands.....the main purpose for using carbon is to maintain very clear water to maximise light penetration, so if purigen does this - I would guess its a reasonable substitute - so would bring the costs down. Maybe worth a check on ZEOvit.com ....
I dont know if these zeolites can be recharged. I know from my freshwater days that those zeolites could by baking them in an oven. I'v never been clear of the theoretical advantages of amonium adsorbtion over letting the bacs do all the work.
I think an inert media would work very well - not sure about the bioballs as there are no anerobic zones in those, but LR rubble or siporax if it soesnt shet glass dust due to the shaking. could be very interesting. Zeolites also perform a very fine mechanical filtration which gives a polished water look.
Having said that, if costs were a constraint, adding the bacs, bac food and carbon source over an inert material shaken daily would definately be an improvement IMO over pot luck with the bacteria culture surviving from LR.
Cheers
Simon
Hi
I have been very busy over the last week so not had time to read or post. I have run a quick calculator over the cost of running an Ultralith System based on 100 ltrs.
A few caveats and points for discussion
The FM Ultralith low nutrient system is intended to be less prescriptive than other methods, with the view that people can utilise the products they need to achieve the levels of low nutrient they require. I like to think of it more as a box of tools to help run your aquarium better.
The cost of running is based on utilising a middle level of dosing over a 12 month period then dividing down. The FM solution combines the maximum number of elements into two products Bak and Min S. During the life of the aquarium dosing may be varied to suit the needs of the aquarium at that time so more or less product may be used but overall the middle of the suggested range is a workable usage rate.
*We have also included for a realistic comparison the Ultra Organic product as this provides potassium and organic trace elements that will help enhance coral colour and health. The dosage of this is dependent on stocking density of the aquarium.
We have not included in the costing the usage of carbon all marine aquariums need a method of removing yellowing compounds this may be carbon or light usage of ozone on very large aquariums but do not see its use as strictly tied to the cost of running an Ultralith system.
In the costing we have not include the cost of Ultra Bio this is a bacterial probiotic in the style of Prodibio but in an economical dropper bottle. Technically it is not needed to run an Ultralith system. If you are setting up from scratch or you are having trouble converting an older system. Using this product will give your aquarium a shot of the good working bacteria of a known type. In the average live rock based aquarium just the Bak and the Min are often enough to culture the bacteria you require.
With regard to the volume of Ultralith to be used we have skipped the lower level during start up and popped for the operational amount with a 25% 6 week change.
Other views on the operational cost of running Fauna Marin LNS
As with all costing there are many factors to add in or out depending on what you require from the system. I have done this on the basis of what I would call a typical Berlin style live rock system. In operating LNS from scratch with a zeo reactor you may choose to reduce greatly the amount of live rock or even move towards using artificial back drops or dead rock. You will find as the LNS matures your usage of phosphate removers will diminish. Again depending on the types of corals kept you may choose to feed the corals using some of the FM feed systems. Also you may find that if starting from scratch you may want to look at some alternative lighting options and levels to help keep costs down.
Cost per 100 ltr aquarium
Ultra Min S per week 24p
Ultra Bak per week 24p
*Ultra Organics per week 25p
Ultra Lith per week 19p
Per month cost £3.98
Probiotic System
If using Ultra Bio then ongoing dosage is 1 drop per 100 ltrs every other day
Same for the bio food.
Cost is 35p per week per 100ltr aquarium
Cost 23p per week for bio food
Or £2.51 per month per 100 ltr
Hope this helps
any questions just ask
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