View Full Version : Ultralith and Rowa
Anakinlucas
15-03-07, 01:08
I am curently using the fm stones in a bag and dosing bak and min's, about to order a Zeo reactor and go the whole hog. My question is, I,m running a deltec rowa reactor and my po4 is undetectable on the salifert test,. Should i remove the rowa reactor when i start with the zeo reactor? Any help would be really appreciated.
Anakinlucas
Hi A
I would take the Rowa off line when you start active flow through the zeolites if you have sps stock in the tank. The reason is that both bacs and Rowa could comsume Po4 too fast and cause ashock to the corals.
Cheers
Simon
Hi
Totally with Simon on this one but would suggest you keep an eye on phoshates as they can rise whilst the bacterias get up to strength.
Jez
Anakinlucas
15-03-07, 20:21
Thanks for the advice guy's, think i'll take it off and keep my eye on po4 and make sure it stays in check. Where in the sump is the best place to site the zeo reactor and the best place to feed from and to feed to. Should i take the inflow and out flow from the skimmer section or is it better to take from this section and direct the out flow to the return pump section?
Anakinlucas
In speaking to Claude, he has told me that its still good to run a small amount of phosphate remover and carbon passively the sump. I believe its important to do this especially in the early days of setting up when the rocks and substrate are still releasing nutrients
I am still a bit confused. If, for instance you have been using Rowaphos reactor for sometime and your phosphates are already zero or thereabouts, surely a further reduction via a zeo reactor should not shock the sps as there would be very little extra phosphates to remove. As far as I can see if you are already at near zero thru Rowa, running it alongside a zeo reactor should not be a shock to the system. I can understand the concern of running zeo and Rowa simultaneously with significant phosphates already in the system. Please correct me if I am wrong as I have Rowa reactor and am now considering a zeo ractor for the Ultraleith (I have been using Ultraleith in a bag for two months).
HI
To try and bring a little clarity here
If the system is new with live rock that will produce a good amount of phosphates from ongoing decay yes even on cured rock as rock continues to get minor die bakc after curing as certain animals persih and other stuff survives. Running a small amount of phosphate remover is pretty essential.
In more mature systems that are already very low from running Iron based PO4 removers I would suggest remove and monitor with a good test kit. If you have very low phosphates say showing zero on a D-D test kit then with fresh rowa in the filter it would be possible to get to dangerously low levels as the bacteria increase. I would simply monitor every week if the phosphates start to creep up I would then use a little remover to keep things on an even keel. It very much depends on your input levels if you have good practises like pre washing then enriching frozen foods you may be adding very little.
Once through the early stages things will find a happy medium.
Regards Jez
If you have very low phosphates say showing zero on a D-D test kit then with fresh rowa in the filter it would be possible to get to dangerously low levels as the bacteria increase.
.
Jez,
firstly, are you saying that you can't get to dangerously low levels of P using Rowa alone?
staying with the core, the bacteria at any point, can only increase with regards to the levels of C,N and P available (if we disregard the alternate pathways).
The ONLY thing that will change the balance, is a change of C, N or P(hence the magic potions)!
Adding fresh Rowa, wont change the game plan, i.e. either the bacteria or the rowa get the P, I'd place my bets on the bacteria. Either way, P will still be scavenged out of the system at the rate at which it is available, If the bac's don't get it, then the rowa will. You still end up with zero on the D&D kit!
So, in summary, with regards to phosphates, what's the differences with how P is exported with Rowa as opposed to with bacteria and how in the Ultra system do you believe the P is actually exported (as opposed to recycled).
It very much depends on your input levels if you have good practises like pre washing then enriching frozen foods you may be adding very little.
Jez, P is one of the primary building blocks of life, how much P can you eliminate by pre-washing? Is it significant, relevant,beneficial ?What are you proposing to enrich with? something that doesn't contain P, who benefits from the enrichment?
On the one hand you say that Low P could be a killer, on the other you say strip it from the feed, so where is the median?
It's a tad rambly, but I guess you get the concept!
N
N
Hi N
If one already has very low P04, then why not save the cash on the Rowa if using this system instead?
We dont want to aim for 0 PO4 as the corals need Phosphate as you say, but aim for very low levels - 0.02 seems to be a consensus over in ZEOland.
PO4 is delivered to the SPS via the bacs which have consumed it in the mulm which is shaken off daily - from there its skimmed out of the system.
FWIW, I find the Merek PO4 kit unable to help at these ultra low levels. Hanna do a spectrometer which can help identify what there is - personally - I just go on visual observation now.
Cheers
SImon
Assuming you get rid of the Rowaphos reactor, which phosphate remover would you leave in the system as a passive remover. Also, on systems such as mine with a heavy bio-load of both fish (40) and corals, 4 times a day feeding (frozen and flakes) may result in an increase in phosphates over time without the Rowa reactor. Will it not be a problem then to re-instate a Rowa reactor and cause a system crash due to rapid depletion of phosphates. I would like to remove the Rowa reactor but am still not convinced the Ultrabak will keep the system phosphate free all the time (as I am finding with Rowa and the Merck kit).
Assuming you get rid of the Rowaphos reactor, which phosphate remover would you leave in the system as a passive remover. Also, on systems such as mine with a heavy bio-load of both fish (40) and corals, 4 times a day feeding (frozen and flakes) may result in an increase in phosphates over time without the Rowa reactor. Will it not be a problem then to re-instate a Rowa reactor and cause a system crash due to rapid depletion of phosphates. I would like to remove the Rowa reactor but am still not convinced the Ultrabak will keep the system phosphate free all the time (as I am finding with Rowa and the Merck kit).
Hi Z
Are you using the full Fauna MArin basic 4? If so, and if it functions like ZEOvit basic 4, then it will keep PO4 under control. I have a bioload of 30 fish in my 500ltrs tank, feeding enough to keep em fat (10mls of cycloses and a cube or two of frozen daily) and PO4 is good.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Z
Are you using the full Fauna MArin basic 4? If so, and if it functions like ZEOvit basic 4, then it will keep PO4 under control. I have a bioload of 30 fish in my 500ltrs tank, feeding enough to keep em fat (10mls of cycloses and a cube or two of frozen daily) and PO4 is good.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Simon
At the moment, I am not using the full system. I am currently using Ultraleith with UltraminS and Ultrabak (2 months). The Ultraleith is in a bag in the sump. I am thinking of putting these in a reactor. However, I have seen some cyano on the sand and have also started using (last 2 weeks) Coral Snow and Coral Vital, both of which you are familiar with and I got to know of them thru your posts. I am also thinking of adding B-Balance??? next time I need to purchase CS. So currently, I am using products from both KZ and FM but I don't think any are duplicated.
Hi Simon
At the moment, I am not using the full system. I am currently using Ultraleith with UltraminS and Ultrabak (2 months). The Ultraleith is in a bag in the sump. I am thinking of putting these in a reactor. However, I have seen some cyano on the sand and have also started using (last 2 weeks) Coral Snow and Coral Vital, both of which you are familiar with and I got to know of them thru your posts. I am also thinking of adding B-Balance??? next time I need to purchase CS. So currently, I am using products from both KZ and FM but I don't think any are duplicated.
Hi Z
OK - I can appreciate your caution now - I think that the bacs will thrive very well in a zeoreactor compared with passive substrates, as they will not be shaken off the zeolites or inert material to then be skimmed out with thier PO4. Also, by pumping water through the reactor, more nutirnt laden water is brought to mulm, compared with a much smaller exposure in passive use of zeolites.
What are your impressions of PCS and PCV? Are you adding CV to the CS then dosing after lights out?
Have you tried puting the Ultra bac in the PCS - leave for 5 mins then dose? This got rid of my little cyno patch (although with ZEObac obviously).
B Ballance - I love it:applause:
Cheers
Simon
Hi Z
What are your impressions of PCS and PCV? Are you adding CV to the CS then dosing after lights out?
Have you tried puting the Ultra bac in the PCS - leave for 5 mins then dose? This got rid of my little cyno patch (although with ZEObac obviously).
B Ballance - I love it:applause:
Cheers
Simon
For me, the jury is still out on the PCV and PCS as I have only used it for a couple of weeks. Yesterday evening was the first day the water looked crystal clear (stopped ozone about a week ago) but am waiting to see if that continues. I dose the PCS and PCV in the mornings before the lights come on. I use Ultrabak with it on alternate days and so far the cyano is reducing very slowly (I only have it in small patches on the sand). I do not use Zeobac on the assumption it may be similar to Ultrabak.
Anakinlucas
21-03-07, 12:42
Now I'm totally confused, running the rowa reactor my system shows zero on the D&D test kit, Could really do with removing it to make room for my Zeo reactor. think i'll remove and just keep a close eye on things whilst keeping finger and everything i can crossed.
Anakinlucas
Simon
PO4 is delivered to the SPS via the bacs which have consumed it in the mulm which is shaken off daily - from there its skimmed out of the system.
what you need to consider, is that EVERY surface, including glass, liverock, pumps etc is covered in the same bacteria that exists in the comparatively TINY reactor. SO there is a MUCH higher magnitude of bound P in bacterial films in the system in general than that which is released from the TINY reactor!
Also, you have to consider the most functionaly suitable forms of bacteria for the process, Motility is a massive factor, you gotta ask yourself just how beneficial is the shaking and dancing in context!
Ain't nothing wrong with shaking and dancin:D , but sheer pleasure for the sake of pleasure serves it own purpose:dance: , and that's a different kinda game:whistling:
N
Simon
what you need to consider, is that EVERY surface, including glass, liverock, pumps etc is covered in the same bacteria that exists in the comparatively TINY reactor. SO there is a MUCH higher magnitude of bound P in bacterial films in the system in general than that which is released from the TINY reactor!
Also, you have to consider the most functionaly suitable forms of bacteria for the process, Motility is a massive factor, you gotta ask yourself just how beneficial is the shaking and dancing in context!
Ain't nothing wrong with shaking and dancin:D , but sheer pleasure for the sake of pleasure serves it own purpose:dance: , and that's a different kinda game:whistling:
N
Hi N
Point taken that the bacteria settle everywhere.:thumbsup: The zeolites have a massive surface area though, much much larger than glass, pumps and other flat surfaces.
In my tank I also have a DSB but very little LR and much of that is covered over with coraline algae and other growth which reduces the porcity of the rock to act as a 'living' filter.
The idea behind shaking the stones is both to clear the surface area to allow for ammonium adsorbtion (ion exchange) by the zeolites as well as the above.
Protean settles on the water air boundary, and so as the water is skimmed off the surface of the tank and taken down to the first compartment of the sump and into the skimmer and zeolite reactor intake it is relatively rich in disolved organics compared with water lower down in the tank itself. The bacs in the zeoreactor are therefore exposed to a much higher concentration of organics to work with.
In any event, without NO3 and PO4 reactors those remain undetectable in my tank as evidenced by the test readings, minimal algae, and SPS color vibrancy.
All good stuff dude:worship:
Cheers
Simon
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