View Full Version : Preparing to go to the Dark Side...
Those of you who have already been lured to an ultralow nutrient system - how did you make the change over with regards to DSB and macro algae?
Leave them alone to start with? Remove algae once up to speed with Zeo - or only when it looks like its starting to die back/stop growing? And the DSB? Presumably this with struggle in a low nutrient system - but maybe not if adequately fed? :confused:
instantsquid
15-03-07, 11:25
Just tagging along as I'm still in the very early stages of making the transition. I am expecting my Chaeto to recede as time goes by - but I don't plan to rip it out until it looks like it's dead/dying. While it's still looking healthy, it's obviously still getting what it needs from the water.
As for the DSB - I assumed that most of the "life" fed on particulate matter, rather than dissolved organics/nutrients. I don't see that running an ULNS will have a huge effect on the amount of floating stuff, left over food, etc. that makes it to my DSB, especially as it is fed directly from one of the weirs.
This is all speculation of course - I'm dosing UltraMin S and UltraBak, with UltraLith and UltraBio going online at the weekend.
On an established system the sensible thing would be to take out the algae when you see it start dying back - i.e. when the bacs start taking over the bulk of the filtration. keep a close eye on it
Can't comment on the DSB from experience because i've never kept one - but I would assume that its compatible with the zeolith systems and it would get fed enough both in terms of bacteria food (carbon source) and bacterialpankton - pod/coral food.
OK - sounds like a plan :)
:thanks:
Hi S
I still have my DSB in both tank and sump a year in. With the algae, the bacs will outcompete it for nutrients, so I'd go with Kieths' suggestion. I had chateo, and found that it slowly died back - so I removed all the grey areas untill nothing was left. If you just leave it (or hair alage) in - nutrients will be recycled and it will take that bit longer to get to ULN.
Cheers
Simon
I am n the process of planning my upgrade.
The sump I have has an area for either a refugium or DSB.
I am planning on starting this system with the Fauna Marin system and a Grotech reactor.
in conversation with Ian (wavey) this morning he suggested removing that area of the sump completely.
Theory was along the lines of the system being at optimum levels but the DSB could/can then leach such things as nitrates back.
May be worth Si C commenting as he is full FM system and certainly used to have a DSB.
I am n the process of planning my upgrade.
The sump I have has an area for either a refugium or DSB.
I am planning on starting this system with the Fauna Marin system and a Grotech reactor.
in conversation with Ian (wavey) this morning he suggested removing that area of the sump completely.
Theory was along the lines of the system being at optimum levels but the DSB could/can then leach such things as nitrates back.
May be worth Si C commenting as he is full FM system and certainly used to have a DSB.
You could go to all that trouble......
Tank with zeovit and DSB in tank and sump - you decide if its a theoretical or real issue to be worried about;) : I'd be more interested in any leachings of minerals from MM substrates.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/DSC_3 u.jpg
Hi
The only issue with leaving the DSB is that you will use more product to clear the sand of any build up of phospahte this will depend a lot on the age health and condition of the DSB. If I was going for it seriously I would rip it out but if its hard to do I would work through it.
regards Jez
SPS Hoover
15-03-07, 19:29
I am with Jez on this true Zeo systems are bare bottoms and no dsb's. I like sand in my tank but dsb is now gone, it was sucking bak and mins up like you would never beleive. Ian got got sweat on when he heard how fast i was going thou a 1000ml bottles.
I am with Jez on this true Zeo systems are bare bottoms and no dsb's.
Sorry Si -that isnt the case with ZEOvit systems. Sure it may take longer to deal with historic gunk, but once you are there your there. Maybe its different with FM? What were you pouring in by the ltr?
Cheers
Simon
SPS Hoover
15-03-07, 19:53
Not far off 15ml a day of each
The problem with an exisitng DSB, its full of crud. As your low(or zero) nutrient water passes over the top, anyhting in the sand, even minute amounts, will leach back out.
SO your zeo reactor, istead of just dealing with the fish/coral waste, will also be processing anythng coming from the sand.
With a new tank, there should be no need to set up a DSB/algae bed or whatever, just the zeo reactor, some rock and a nice big skimmer.
On exisiting systems, its obviously different. IF its posssible, you will certainly be able to reach ultra low/zero quicker by removing the sand bed, whatever system you are using.
HOWEVER, it may not be a good idea to change it that quick, a graduall process is safer.
I would start with removing the algae, its competing for coral food/trace elements any way.
Then as you get to a low point and it wont go any further, remove the sand. It is probably more practical to do it in one go, but what ever suits the/or is possible.
As Si's experience has shown, the first drop was easy, it killed the algae as well, the next step, to the really low nutrient system, will, ultimately only happen now the DSB has been removed.
Great replies chaps, thanks.
No DSB for me but will still retain a layer of sand in the main tank.
Interesting Ian.
All you FM guys are taking the same line:) Look forward to seeing your results in due course, unless you can post up some examples now... that would be great.
Can you explain why you think my tank has ULNS level colors with a DSB in both sump and tank?
I'm planning to take out the DSB in the sump, not because of the NO3 and PO4 possibly lurking there, but because the the miracle mud and mineral mud might be leaching minerals backingto the water holding back further color development. I'll keep you posted.
For ZEOvit users and prodibio users - IME, Iwan's expereience and many others, I wouldnt follow the line FM are suggesting as a requirement if you like the sand and have patience on your side. Its an option. Why wouldn't we like to have sand beds? They provide the environment for a rich food web, allow us to keep sand dwelling fish and look much more natural.
Interesting stuff.
Cheers
Simon
Not far off 15ml a day of each
Holy smoke! Can see why Ian was sweating it:laugh:
I can see that an old sand bed could leach crud back and so delay the establishment of ULNS. I'm not convinced a new DSB - run from day one in a tank with very low nitrates and use of Phos remover would have much to leach out though? So extapolating this a bit further - should we be including LR in the tank - old LR containing nutrients will still feed algae growth - perhaps the fact that it s subject to higher flow and has less surface area makes it less of an issue? Or does it??!
Interesting discussion!
The argument of the macro algaes competing with corals is interesting though!
- should we be including LR in the tank - old LR containing nutrients will still feed algae growth -
I have been pondering this since my post earlier in the week. I don't mean to hijack, and perhaps its should be subject to a new thread :confused: ... but doesn't the inclusion on LR introduce more nitrate into a system that a ULNS will then try to remove? (I understand bio-diversity can not be ignored.) I've also been pondering simon g's method of seeding 'dead' rock with liquidised colraline (SP) while running ULNS in a new tank.
Any thoughts?
Mat
OK,
On a new system, with a small amoht of new live rock, the zeo and skimmer will do the job.
Simon, how old was your DSB when you went to zeo? For sure, if you start a new tank with DSB, then there will be near as dammit, nothing for it to leach out, but then the question arrises, why bother? If it hasnt trapped much, it hasnt done much, therefore not having one saves money.
Its not a set in stone thing, Simon, you know this really well, its a feeling thing. If your zeo is running correctly, you are feeding the zeo/Fm supplements, what does the sand bed bring you? Very few SPS reef zones are anywhere near deep sand beds in the wild, therefore much of the food created is unnatural for SPS? Not sure on that one, but seems to make sense to me.
So, I am not saying dont use a DSB or rip an existing one out, just that in theory, if zeo is so good at striping out nutrients, why do you still need a DSB?
I totally agree with taking out the MM system though, controlled addition of trace and minerals is the only way to go with zeo systems. In tank SSB, well my new tank will have one for a more natural look(more of a dusting really), and if I had an existing tank with one, I would leave it be, but probably clean it quite frequently.
I will get some photos from Germany for you te see some FM tanks.
OK,
I will get some photos from Germany for you te see some FM tanks.
Sounds good :)
OK,
On a new system, with a small amoht of new live rock, the zeo and skimmer will do the job.
Simon, how old was your DSB when you went to zeo? For sure, if you start a new tank with DSB, then there will be near as dammit, nothing for it to leach out, but then the question arrises, why bother? If it hasnt trapped much, it hasnt done much, therefore not having one saves money.
Its not a set in stone thing, Simon, you know this really well, its a feeling thing. If your zeo is running correctly, you are feeding the zeo/Fm supplements, what does the sand bed bring you? Very few SPS reef zones are anywhere near deep sand beds in the wild, therefore much of the food created is unnatural for SPS? Not sure on that one, but seems to make sense to me.
So, I am not saying dont use a DSB or rip an existing one out, just that in theory, if zeo is so good at striping out nutrients, why do you still need a DSB?
I totally agree with taking out the MM system though, controlled addition of trace and minerals is the only way to go with zeo systems. In tank SSB, well my new tank will have one for a more natural look(more of a dusting really), and if I had an existing tank with one, I would leave it be, but probably clean it quite frequently.
I will get some photos from Germany for you te see some FM tanks.
Hi Ian
Glad we are edging back from the absultute recomendation that DSBs should go inorder to run these kinds of systems.
The reason one may want a sand bed is not for nutrient reduction beacuse as you say the zeolites bacs and skimmer can do this for us - rather for the food web a sand bed supports, the fish one can keep and the look.
I added a DSB in the main tank after I started with these systems because the BB/Zeo/skimmer was making the water too clean, and I had trouble with nutrient limitation. Since adding the sand bed to the tank, things have stabalised out well. Occassionally I syphon small parts of the sand bed to see what kind of gunk comes up and its of a much 'lighter' nature than previous sand beds I'v used.
The other thing I like about a decent sand bed is that with BB, the detritus just begs to be syphoned out and thats more 'hands in' the tank time. With a DSB - it settles and gets converted - easier and less 'hands in' time.
The difference between a reef crest with sps and a tank is that there are continual upwellings of 'food' for sps from the outer zone. We dont have that in our reefs so it requires some thought IMO on how to replicate that dimention. Sure there are very beautiful BB reefs with or without zeovit, and the converse is true too.
I'm with you on the 'feeling' thing - try a little bit here - edge that way abit - facinating stuff.
Cheers
Simon
Hi
I am not sure if wires are getting crossed here so for onlookers and people thinking about looking at low nutrient systems just to keep it clear.
If you are converting from an exsisting aqaurium with a DSB it will almost certainly take longer if you choose to leave the DSB in place. I refer to a DSB as being an aragonite sandbed of various particle size of 4-8 inches in depth.
I would see this being the case regardless of the method you are using.
If you are starting from scratch I see little adavantage in adding in a DSB to act as a nutrient sink as in reality you are dealing with the wastes through the feeding of the bacteria Zeo and all that good stuff.
I see a very good reason for having a normal size say 1-2 " sand bed in the aquarium as this encourages fauna and micro animals that are sand dwelling in the aquarium. Few of these animals need to burrow down 6-8 inches the main reason for the depth of DSB's is to encourage anerobic conditions.
The other reasons is to help reflect light back around the aquarium.
Finally there is very little hard evidence 5 years down the road that a remote DSB provides massively higher levels of in tank micro organisms that corals could feed on, as skimming, pumps, predation all take there toll if they exsisted in the first place.
IN the context of a new build a remote DSB is money better spent elsewhere whilst in tank substrate is important.
well that is my moderately humble opinion.
regards jez
One of the German(i think) tanks on FM products.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/fm1.jpg
another,
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/fm3.jpg
another,
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2006Q4/fm4.jpg
Thats one lovely tank Ian. Any links to the specs pls?
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