View Full Version : zeolite
hi guys, i was in my lfs the other day and noticed bags of zeolite, now this i thought was crazy as in the most part they are still pushing under gravel beds :D well they aren't but you know what i mean
anyways
they had a 4kg bag of zeolite for 7 quid. it was made by kockney koi and is for use in freshwater ponds.
more out of interest than anything but is this the same stuff 'we' use??
instantsquid
27-03-07, 13:24
Nope! Leave it where it is!
The stuff used in ponds is good at removing Ammonia from water... but even better at removing Calcium!
ha ha gotcha :D
so what makes them different if both are marketed as zeolite?
Zeolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite)
vs
ZeoVit (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeovit_system/zeovit.htm)
In my limited understanding, there are lots of different zeolites, each with different adsorption properties. Getting the right balance of different zeolites is very important, and that is what KZ & FM do for us. You must use the right zeolite mixture.
Scoob, there are thousands of different zeolites..its the name given to rather large group of mineral stones
According to FM - the common pond zeolite is Herschelite and the ultralith stuff is Clinoptilolite
ah ha, knew it wouldn't be that simple :D :D
i did note that the koi zeolite was white not blue like i have seen in reactors.
well you learn something every day, cheers guys :)
i have a source of Clinoptilolite that can flog it to me for £20 a sack... i h ave a sample i am trialling at the moment ... looking good so far
could organise a group buy ....
ickypimp, I'd be interested in some samples if you have some spare
Has anyone used just Clinoptilolite on it's own, without any bacteria dosing - I've been reading that it is naturally a toxin absorber - to put it simply - sp if it absorbes ammonia on it's own, why add the bacteria etc???
Jon
the bacreria are a mixed culture they include nitrifyers, denitrifyers, some that absorb phosphates by producing polyphosphate, the bacteria can yhen be skimmed out and also become food for filter feeders.... the zeolites will absorb some ammonia (though this is fairly inefficient in salt water) and some bacterial growth would occour on them BUT mixed populations of bacteria tend to compete with each other for space and resources, this leads to a position where you have a monoculture that doesnt effectivly take care of your tanks needs, this is why dosing regularly with bacteria is recommended.
Marc Foord
28-03-07, 15:10
the zeolites will absorb some ammonia (though this is fairly inefficient in salt water) and some bacterial growth would occour on them BUT mixed populations of bacteria tend to compete with each other for space and resources, this leads to a position where you have a monoculture that doesnt effectivly take care of your tanks needs, this is why dosing regularly with bacteria is recommended.
ok, so why are we using the zeolites if they are inefficient in salt water and only some bacterial growth occurs on them ? would we be just as good with just the bacteria dosing and the associated foods ?
Because they provide a good substrate for bacterial colinisation, i reckon that LRR, seachem matrix . siphorax etc would work well too
That explains my confusion - seems like(with respect) just another great substrate for bacteria growth - reading ikypimps post
"mixed populations of bacteria tend to compete with each other for space and resources, this leads to a position where you have a monoculture that doesnt effectivly take care of your tanks needs, this is why dosing regularly with bacteria is recommended."
If we add other bacteria ie 'cycle' or the other ones on the market, will they not have the same effect - or are the bacteria this system adds totally different from the readily available cycling enhancers ???
Jon
instantsquid
28-03-07, 15:51
With respect, I think that "just" thinking of zeolites as substrates for bacterial growth is slightly missing the point.
This article explains their functionality much better than I can: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm
zeolites will sequester some ammonium, which in turn will enhance bacterial colonisation,
cycle(or other filter start products) would do the same thing for your nirtifyers which we generally dont have issues maintaining populations of, it is the denitrfyers and the phosphate binders that we have a harder time keeping in balance.
Well explained thatnk you. Nice article Ian.
Just testing your knowledge!!! Wanna be sure that things aren't just a fad, or something tried rebranded and pushed......(with respect!!!!):D :D
??? none of us have any commercial interest (well except Jez :p)
No I was just talking generally - (Jez is sending me some freebie trail stuff out) so I am more than happy with commercially minded people having an input - they should in theory be able to justify the system and back it up with research based info.
I suppose I'm just playing devils advocate....
Jon
I suppose I'm just playing devils advocate....
Jon
:laugh: Worth playing Jon because its 'new'. Actually it isnt, but its been rediscovered and combined with bacs by ZEOvit.
I'm interested in Icky's ideas about using LRR or siporax as I continue to wonder what the advantages are of using zeolites to just letting the bacs do all the work.
Icky, the zeovit packaged zeolites are reportedly a blend of 4 different types. Is there any way of checking what they are and trying to source a similar mix?
I dont think Jez would be risking his high standing amoungst us with fads:wave:
Cheers
Simon
I find it amazing - I love the theory and as you have mentioned Simon, and your tank shows it works. I just wonder that why has this just come about - no-one mentioned this until recently. I can't believe that someone has just realised that it is possible to culture the bacteria needed to bind, phosphates and nitrates(end stage) or ammonia (first stage)
If a discovery has been made, then why can we not have a product like cycle - which is for the mature tank - I have loads of LR, a DSB which must be suitable substrate for denit. bacteria after all that's why I have LR and a DSB.
I think your right Simon, can we not know what strains of Bac are in the additives.
Jon
it is a tough job... you would have to do thermal emission spectroscopy and x ray diffraction i think...
There is a research paper i am trying to get hold of at the moment that gives details of a blend of zeolites suitable for use in saltwater ... it isnt a public access papaer and our institute doesnt have an electronic subscription...
I have scoured the web for info regarding the blend...and drawn a blank
thermal emission spectroscopy and x ray diffraction i think...
I was just about to suggest that, just didn't know what it was, I came up with the same letters just in a different order.....
Jon
serious answer now - if knowing what the strains are is very difficult - how can a munufacturer know??????
JOn
I think your right Simon, can we not know what strains of Bac are in the additives.
Jon
you can ... if you buy the prodibio biodigest
http://www.prodibio.fr/anglais/biodigest.htm
however it isnt quite as simple as that, for these microorganisms to effectively do their thing they need to be provided the correct environment. the bacteria need electron donors in the form of carbon sources, this is the same principal as adding vodka, sugar or vinegar to your tank, however different species have preferences for different carbon sources this is why we use bakand min, they also contain minerals, amino acids vitamins etc that act as co factors to further enhance the process
serious answer now - if knowing what the strains are is very difficult - how can a munufacturer know??????
JOn
because they will contract an analytical lab to do the work for them....
it is a tough job... you would have to do thermal emission spectroscopy and x ray diffraction i think...
There is a research paper i am trying to get hold of at the moment that gives details of a blend of zeolites suitable for use in saltwater ... it isnt a public access papaer and our institute doesnt have an electronic subscription...
I have scoured the web for info regarding the blend...and drawn a blank
Got any key words you want me to search for? Zeolite returns 13,301 Articles
my searches have been along the lines of zeolite seawater ammonium denitrification saltwater wastewater management....
Like i say there is a key paper that i need to get my hands on... GRRRR
I will have a word with a couple of people in environmental biology see if they can order it for me... it will look dodgy if i do it as it is clearly not related to our groups research interests.
I have access to lots of scientific databases via Newcastle uni - i'll have a look
down to 6 with those terms, any more pin points?
Nutrient removal and recovery from wastewater by ion exchange
Abstract
After about 500 cycles have been continuously performed on a laboratory pilot plant, ion exchange resins have proved to be an effective means to treat municipal secondary effluents to prevent eutrophication in the receiving water bodies. Clinoptilolite, a natural zeolite, and Kastel A 510, a strong base anion resin with adsoptive properties, act selectively to remove ammonium and phosphate ions, at the same time affording filtration and adsorption of the wastewater. NaCl at sea-water concentration is used as resin regenerant. After the recovery of products of fertilizing value, as MgNH4PO4 and NH4 NO3, from the eluates, the latter can be recycled
?
NaCl at sea-water concentration is used as resin regenerant.
this is the problem... as with most ion exchange resins... (i use these in the lab)
do you have a full reference or a pdf of this paper ??
Gent's
rather than retracing old legwork, here's a few oldiest to get you on your way;)
a thread that is untampered by those with a financial interest
http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39298&highlight=zeolite
the movie on reefcentral part 1 and 2
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=606539&highlight=zeolite
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=608973&highlight=zeolite
bacterial strains in zeobak
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=510427&highlight=zeolite
there are many more classics, but the above are a decent grounding.
hope you enjoy them:D
be very interested in your views post having read the literature that is referenced in the threads. See ya in 4 weeks:wave:
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