View Full Version : Ultramin S and ultra Bak + cyano
I was wondering if anyone could comment on things that I have heard about these two products in some cases causing cyano outbreaks. I have read Jez's article and noticed that he pointed out that using the products in the presence of PO4 can result in cyano outbreaks. I was also talking to a prominant shop owner the other day who had a problem with brown cyano in a display tank and he was told by fauna marin in Germany to stop using these two products that he had been dosing.
Has anyone else experienced this when using these products in Berlin style set-ups (particularly when not using zeolites)? Also has anyone got any information on why these products may cause cyano outbreaks in the presence of PO4?
Yes, I did too, it's clearing up though as I'm dosing very small amounts.
Currently mixing the Min S with Ultraclam (have a couple of small clams that need feeding). Once my clams are around 5 inches I'll stop dosing with these products.
Cyano is just one of those things that can bloom; I also did very large water changes during my RTN episode, this caused a cyano bloom too.
I think the FM products are good but it would appear that dosing the Min S and Clam foods without the zeolites can give algaes and cyano food to eat; basically the Min S is a mixed vitamin & mineral & amino acid formula; proteins and minerals & vitamins ARE food......some thing will feed off them ;)
I was using the full system and I experienced cyano outbreaks, even cutting back the dose had no effect.
It was strange becuase the system did work to get nitrates down to zero but I seemed to have a big increase in cyano and also another type of fuzzy purple algae growing all over the rocks.
My deltec test kit always read 0 phosphates,
Yep sounds about right - foods will feed.........
Be interested to hear what ITC have to say on this, my system details:
100 gals of water
All water changes and top up done with 0-TDS RO&DI'd water
Heavy skimming (an AP1004)
Algae scrubber lit 24/7 with chaeto & calerpa
Fluidised Ultiphos
No reading of PO4 on Deltec's test kit
Fish are fed about 4 times a day, I do not feed heavily and my fish are well but not fat MF like scoobs! :laugh:I would have thought with my system set up it would "rape" the water of nutrients, even when dosing Min S/Clam foods.
FWIW, I use a fraction of what you're suposed to feed with Min S & U/Clam....But there is still some algae on rocks etc and patches of Cyano that I did not have before dosing.
Interresting. More results please........
Reef Encounters
12-04-07, 16:32
There is a train of thought that suggest when going ULNS bound nutrients in sand rock etc are bought out possibly causing nutrient blooms leading to cyno etc, fwiw we noticed a bit in our display but began to recede after a couple of weeks presumably as these are being used up. Be interested to hear other who have experienced similar.
As Darren really I have heard of the outbreaks (all short term) and the theory was within the rock, sand etc you had the bound nutrients and these were now coming out, even though before hand readings were spot on.
The key is to start the doses very, very low and slowly increase i believe, quite often people start low but not low enough and very quickly increase the dose.
Any idea how long the cyano problems appeared after first doses,
What types of 'cyano' have people seen? Red, brown, green etc. Also any info on the consistency of the cyano, ie thick matting, thin fragile films etc.
Would I also be right in thinking that if the sand / rock idea is right then you would only expect to get the cyano on the rock or sand itself? If there is no detectable nitrate or phosphate (presumably the nutrients people are talking about that might leach from rocks) in the water then you would not expect to see cyano on the glass, equipment, egg crate etc?
I'd like to know if this "leaking" of nutrients from rocks and sand etc has been tested to clarify IF this is the case, or if (like so many other things in this hobby) people are assuming (guessing) that this is so.
For me, can't quite get my head around how adding food, in a liquid form like Min S (not forgetting that solid foods such as mysiss contains amino acids and minerals) wont add to the bioload?
For me, if running without the zeolites, I think adding too much Min S will always cause blooms; it is amino acids = food, and food feeds things, including cyano/algaes.
Don't want to appear negative, on the plus side I have noticed that all my corals appear to have reacted well to this product and appeared to have better colour and polyp extension, my LPS looked MUCH fuller.
Just to add balance - I have used FM ultralith system from day one of setting up my latest tank (7months old) and have not suffered from any cyano as of yet. I did go through a rather large algae bloom after a severe overdose with both the bak & minS
i started on the FM system on a mature tank with high N03 and N04, been running it for about 5 weeks now and havent had any algea problems. infact i had a small patch of cyno when i started but this whent within a few days...
no3 and n04 have droped by about half, but still high at no3 60'ish no4 at 0.3.
coral's are growing like crazy
I'd like to know if this "leaking" of nutrients from rocks and sand etc has been tested to clarify IF this is the case, or if (like so many other things in this hobby) people are assuming (guessing) that this is so
I dont really buy into that theory, certaintly I havent heard of it with reagrds to zeovit users.
I fully expect the ultralith to work but I just think personally its very hard to get the dosing rate and the instructions are a bit vague.
With zeovit its already been practised for years and people know the exact dosage of each product gives best effects, 1 drop of this 2 drops of that etc, I dont think its quite there yet with ultralith and probably myself and others as a result have got the dosage wrong and the result is a bit of a mess.
If I was started out with ultralth again I would concentrate mainly on the bak and bio and be very cautious with the min s.
Hi
I have some info on this but have to pop out know so no time to post but will write it up later.
Jez
Ah, interesting - I've also had a sudden but localised outbreak of red cyano on rocks after only 2 doses of UMS and UB. Have stopped using them pending more info.
same here! i'm just gonna get a huge skimmer and ozone i think.
Are these outbreaks in tanks with or without sand? And if sand what type and is it "fresh" or from an old system?
Kev
Hi
Cynobacter
The answer is in the name really all these additives whether FM or Zeo are designed to feed bacteria and cyno is potentially fed by the dosing of carbon sources vitamins and amino's. The biggest catalyst is phosphate when combined with bacteria foods it provides loads of fuel for cynobacteria. This phosphate can be in the water and or locked in the rock and sand depending on the age of the tank and the amount of phosphate management done in the past will often dictate the length of time this problem will last.
Whenever starting off with Bak and Min my normal recommendation is to start on a half dose may be less if you have elevated nutrients building up slowly. All this does is make available food for bacteria in small amounts as the bacteria multiply so the additional wastes are mopped up.
Something to remember is that adding say 1ml per day for 10 days will not give a corresponding amount of bacteria for the additional food added. The populations will be increasing but during these early stages unless your tank is very well stocked you are probably going to have lots of carbon amino's that remain unused by bacteria combine that with a few other bits of waste and you have opportunistic scavengers like cyno appearing.
The best way to start to avoid cyno is to make sure phosphate is under control before starting.
Start dosing really low and increase weekly by say 10=20%. Also if your stocking density is low just a few corals then drop the amount of min-s down as there are few corals to utilise it so it again it is used by opportunistic scavengers.
The other way that is often recommended on Zeo and German sites is to simply work through it as when the nutrients are all used up it will be starved out. One of the Zeo tanks I saw in Holland owned by Tanen you can find the UR thread was plagued with cyno for the first three months on Zeo and then when the nutrient was used up so was the cyno.
I prefer to lower the dose as I have always found cyno damaging to sps corals.
The other thing that was mentioned in Holland and Germany is the use of Prodibio/Ultra bio as a seed of good bacteria as these will mop up the excess bacteria foods and in time out compete the cyno.
Hope that helps
Jez
davethefish
12-04-07, 23:56
having just started my new ultralith tank (about 6 weeks so far) i did initially get a bit of cyano, and i was dosing min s and bac (even though at much lower than stated doses), without having much real need for the min s as i don't have much stock at the moment.
my nitrates climbed to 25ppm and as soon as i noticed the cyano, i stopped dosing min s but carried on with the bac at low dose, and within a week or so it has all but disappeared, a tiny little bit on the sand about the size of a 50p. and my nitrates have come down to 10ppm over the last few weeks.
HI
I forgot to mention Tony B's tank all that is Tony is too much food for the amount of stock Ultra clams and mins is a powerful very enriched food so again if not fully utilised will be scavenged by opportunistic algae.
More later
Jez
HI
I forgot to mention Tony B's tank all that is Tony is too much food for the amount of stock Ultra clams and mins is a powerful very enriched food so again if not fully utilised will be scavenged by opportunistic algae.
More later
Jez
Hi Jez,
I'm only using about 20% of suggested dose? Is this too much? :confused:
It's no major issue for me:wave:, the cyano has virtually all gone now, might even up the dose.
Would I be right in thinking it is just a case of feeding what's used; as you would your fish - harder thing is tho, with Min S etc (any liquid food) is that it's not so obvious if your over feeding; you can see if your fish are too fat/not eating all the food but with liquid feeds, this is a touch harder to gauge eh? :o
Tony, you are spot on,
You feed what is needed by the corals. A full dose of MinS would be for a fully stocked tank(coral wise) growing strongly.
As Claude says, 'you need good eyes' and see what is going on.
If you get a cyno outbreak, cut right back or stop completely on the MinS, but continue with the bak, as this is going to help long term by promoting the beneficial bacteria. To go with this, a dose of prodibio/ultrabio will also help get the bacteria we want into the system.
As with new tanks, you need to cycle through the outbreak. Long term the benfits with these systems are for all to see. But it could take a few months to really get somewhere near the finished result.
Funny thing everyone should say this.....
I've been adding Vodka and Vinegar mix for 3 months. Adding 1ml per 100l. Both NO3 and Phos at zero on test kits and big skimmer pulling loads of thick black gunk out. Then my free samples of FM turn up so I switch over to these last Saturday and out of no where comes a Cyno outbreak.
Sure it will go over time but must be very strong stuff. Adding .8ml and 1.6 ml as per instructions....
RichB.
but your phosphate may well be in the form of solid waste
There is something like 120 different ingredients in MinS alone....
Vodka and vinegar will only be providing a carbon source for the bacteria. Its not providing anything for the corals to feed on, or promote greater polyp extension, increased colouration and so on.
VV method is good at helping to reduce nitrates, but the zeo/FM/prodi systems are just more rounded and provide coral nutrition and promote a wider spectrum of bacteria.
instantsquid
13-04-07, 10:24
Very interesting thread. I've been dosing Min S and Bak for a few months now - but I built up extremely slowly (I started on perhaps 10% of recommended dose). I'm now running Lith and adding Bio daily too.
My phosphate level certainly wasn't zero when I started - around the 0.03 mark on a D&D test kit. In fact, that figure hasn't changed at all since starting. I've not seen any cyano at all, but have seen all manner of "nuisance" algaes blooming, some of which I have never seen in my tank before. I have no doubt that once phosphate and nitrate hit zero, these will start to disappear.
SPS Hoover
13-04-07, 10:35
I think we have to realise when undertaking any of these type of changes within our tanks we are changing the whole balance of the system. And these types of issues will happen in some cases. I have been dosing 15ml a day of each and had no cyano problems. In some respects this no different from starting a tank up we all get varying degrees of algae issues on start up. The problem is with this method and the running of a reef tank is not an exact science, if they were no tank would ever have any issues
On a slightly different note, what are peoples opinions on dosing ultra Bak in a system that has no detectable nitrate or phosphate?
I was also told that Ultra organic should be dosed with these other two products as it is the main source of potassium, any opinions?
SPS Hoover
13-04-07, 16:29
Thread now cleaned by me
Clayton
Yes oragnics has to be used but only once you have hit low nutrients with system
FWIW I'v also had a period of small localised cyno using ZEObac. food and carbon source. etc. Was arround for a month or so then went after I syphoned the area and used Phols Coral Snow. with the bacs. I put it down to a localised nutrient pocket. Interestingly there wasnt a color darkening during the cybo presence, which is why I put it down to localised nutrients rather than PO4 in the water.
Cheers
Simon
After 3 days of equal amounts of baks and mins at 1/2 dose, I have a patch of cyano developing on the sand, i've never had cyano on the sand, not even when the tank was young.
So I'm going to maintain the baks but decrease the mins to 1/8 dose and see what happens.
Well after 2 weeks my Cyno has all gone :D
Must say Im sold on this FM stuff. Corals look VG and growing very well. All readings are ZERO :thumbsup: and skimmer is pulling stuff out at a huge rate.
All I need now is another BIGGER free sample to see effect over 6 months :whistling:
Might even have to try it with the Zoo's next. Is this much of a change? Will I need to run Carbon if I do this?
:thanks:
RichB.
Have you noticed a slow down in algae growth on the glass? I've found this to be a good way to see the bacs kick in (massive decrease in algae growth on the glass) and when you over feed on the MinS (the green dusting on the glass returns).
Yes Keith,
Back to cleaning every other day and not every other hour:rolleyes:
RichB.
Glad to see positive results
any feedbakc is useful
Cheers Jez
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