View Full Version : Ultra-bio,dont think this is right?
Reef bloke
13-06-07, 19:15
I purchased a 50ml bottle of this around about the time they switched from vials to the little white bottles with silver label.Scoob has been doing a little experiment to grow the bacteria on in a dish.This has been going very well,the water has become cloudy with bacteria within 24hrs and his nitrates have plumeted.
As an experiment we replicated it with my batch and this is where things go to pot.I have been getting no cloudy water at all in the test container,there seems to be no bacterial activity.
Now heres the really strange thing,Scoob bottle is recent and is dated best before 09/07.Mine is a couple of months old and has the best before 12/07? Mine also states use 2 drops per 100 liters,Scoob states 1 drop 100 litres.
I get the feeling i have a duff batch here,anyone else found the same i.e using best before 12/07-2 drops per 100 litres with little success?
Feed back appreciated Tony
Don't know about the bio but the baks and min s were labelled incorrectly in a batch a while back, maybe the bio isn't the bio?
Reef bloke
13-06-07, 21:17
MMM i did think that Dave,it doesnt smell much like baks but it sdoesnt seem to be doing anything.
Tony
My UltraBio is the same batch. :( I am going to conduct a test on mine.
I have put half a cup of saltwater in a plastic cup. Put 2 drops of UltraBio and a cap full of UltraBak. No liverock!
Left the cup floating in my sump.
Be interesting to see if I get any water cloudiness in the next couple of days, which I assume I should do.
Dave
Reef bloke
13-06-07, 21:33
Scotts turned to a white bacterial soup within 24 hours,this is a very basic way to grow on but i would expect at least some activity/bacterial bloom.
For a matter of comparison and as I have a couple of ampules of Prodibio left. I have done the same with this. Although I have used a whole ampule and 1 cap full of UltraBak.
Dave
instantsquid
13-06-07, 21:40
Mine has no "use by" date on it, but it has the "2 drops" instructions - this could explain why I have now used the whole bottle and it's not had any effect on my parameters.
Mine has no "use by" date on it, but it has the "2 drops" instructions - this could explain why I have now used the whole bottle and it's not had any effect on my parameters.
I thought that first of all, but my LFS had put a price tag over the date :whistling: My date is just above where it says 50ml.
Dave
Tony don't worry about the labels.
all is well.
Claude had some German handicapped children working a short time ago and some wrong lables got put on.
Any new stock has approx = 9 to 12 months extra to what is states.
Reef bloke
13-06-07, 23:39
Still doesnt seem to be working,the label states ultra-bio but with different dosage instructions than scotts?
Tony don't worry about the labels.
all is well.
Claude had some German handicapped children working a short time ago and some wrong lables got put on.
Any new stock has approx = 9 to 12 months extra to what is states.
well since the labels don't say 'duckhams hypograde' i'd be more inclined it isn't that the kids stuck the wrong labels on, but that the kids were given the wrong labels to stick, not like they have a shiney silver dymo producing ultra bio labels for fun, must have been printed wrong :D
how do you know what a new batch is? if the BBE is out :D
be interesting to see what Dave P's does.
first thing mine did was went pink.
next day pink, smokey and with a whiff developing.
lastly, dark pink to black, white crust, grey slime, death smell.
Tony the older bottles (and thus labels) stated dose 2 drops.
The original German bottles and the earlier UK labels had this one.
Claude then tweaked the mixture I believe and the dosage was then ammended to 1 drop on the labels.
So you have an older bottle than Scott, chances are Scotts expirt date should show an extra 9 or so months on the use by date.
so has tony's gone out of date then, so to speak?
Tony's was dated Dec 07 wasn't it?
yup, 3 months after mine but bought 3 months before.
So Tony's is older stock.
Goes out of date Dec 07.
Yours will be good to late 08.
Not that either will last until then.:)
Twistedpro
14-06-07, 08:29
Well i have the same bottle as you tony, i have conducted the same experiment as you and had not growth. I did al little more complicated in the lab and had no growth either. Looks like my batch has gone off also. Slightly annoying since its only 1-2 months old and i will never get through that amount in that time and for £30 a bottle quite steep.
Might explain why i have stopped getting as much mulm and nitrates have increased slightly over the last month
How have you stored yours tony??
Mmmm, I'll have a look at mine later.....
Wife's phoned me earlier to say the electrics went off and my sump filled up. So a might find that the cups have emptied into my tank :annoyed: Find out tonight when I get home.
I am very concerned with what Twistedpro has said on his post.
How should these bottles be stored? mine are just left in my cupboard and I know they are just sitting on the shelf in the LFS.
Dave
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 16:00
Dont think its gone off,more like it was full of dead cells.From day one i didnt notice any benefit to my system and no change to my nitrate at all.In fact i went over to dosing vodka and vinegar and had more luck with that.Im more inclined to believe it was a duff first batch.Anyone from ITC care to comment?
With regards to storage id have thought a cool,dry place would be adequate.Pesonally i wouldnt store in a fridge as im not sure what the thermal shock would do to the bacteria once plopped into warm tank water.
Tony
The following is not directed at any manufacturer (not even you Ian) and is just my unqualified opinion.
With the limited funds associated with the aquatics industry, I can’t help but question quality control on any form of bacterial cultures or complex bespoke additives. Obviously products that are mass produced with primary applications intended for other markets will likely prove better quality (such as Labpack chemicals).
Aquarium salt suffers bad batches from time to time, look at the issues Kent had? I’ve had a full refund from Reef Crystals before.
Perhaps people need to re-adjust their expectations when using these products?
Would the prodibio enclosed ampoules not be a better idea than a dropper bottle
Well I have come home, and there is no change to cloudiness to either cups that I can notice.
:confused:
So maybe leave it a little longer.
For the record my UltraBak has an UltraMinS label on the back and is orange in colour. My bottle of UltraMinS has more reddish colour.
Dave
Twistedpro
14-06-07, 16:38
Storing in the fridge should be fine, all my bacterial plates are stored in the fridge and cell cultures are flash frozen and kept at -70c you don't get thermal shock when adding to broth. My bio bottle is very clear and i cant say i can even see dead cells
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 16:54
Mines very clear too.Twistedpro thats cool(pardon the pun),perhaps lfs should store the gear in a little fridge.Gets pretty warm in lfs's this time of year so cant do the bio much good.Any chance of getting some raw product on a slide and having a butchers mate?
Tony-I respect what your saying but at £30 a pop for a 50ml bottle of bacteria i expect results.I have no idea what procedures FM have in place to check the quality and viability of the bacteria but i hope this was a first run glitch.
Scotts bottle was top notch so theres no question that this is excellent gear when the batch is good.
Maestro-The Bio used to be available in ampoules only so i was under the impression that the new bottle method was quite suitable,again gauging the results on Scott tank it should be.
instantsquid
14-06-07, 16:59
Looks like I need to get myself another bottle - I can see why folks might think is "snake oil" though...
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 17:07
Looks like im gonna have to grab another too Ian as id like to check out the results with a decent bottle if Scotts is anything to go by.
I really do hope that we get some comments from ITC on this thread. As it is not looking too good.
What concerns me with my tests is are they correct? should I be seeing results? Is the quantity of bacteria in the UltraBio bottle so small that it would take many days to see anything.
I have performed the tests on the ProdiBio ampules and the results seem so far to be the same. I dosed Prodibio for 3 months and didn't see any results and I can't get that out of my mind either. However the fact that I am not seeing any cloudiness might indicate the way I am testing is incorrect.
I have also wondered with Scoobs whether the UltraBio did anything and maybe the bacteria that multiplied was from the living rock.
And sorry Tony, I disagree with you. If they sell a product it should be as labeled. Quality control is the manufacturers issue and not mine. Having said that I am forgiving and accept that there will be problems with initial batches.
The whole issue here is with the product, you pay £30 and you need to believe what it says on the tin. As you can't examine it and say "yep, I can see there is loads of good bacteria in there". You need to rely on the reputation of the manufacturer in providing the goods.
Dave
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 17:32
How about Actimel?
That stuff gets me craping like a race horse so think ill give that a miss lol.
Dave,Ill ask Scott to knock up a batch without any rock,mind you my batch was set up in an identicle way i.e with a bit of rock from my sump.As Twistedpro(sorry dont know your name)states he has tried to grow this on in the lab with little to no success so it doesnt look promising.
Ive been reading up and there was a simular aguement regarding the zeobak bottles which is the zeovit bacteria
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518394&perpage=25
I too have an "old" bottle & tbh haven't noticed the results I thought I would??
Cheers, Shelton.
Ive been reading up and there was a simular aguement regarding the zeobak bottles which is the zeovit bacteria
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518394&perpage=25
Thanks Maestro for those threads, I am now totally confused :laugh::laugh:
Anakinlucas
14-06-07, 20:21
I'm on my second bottle now and puchased both from different suppliers, both say 12/07 and 2 drops per 100 litres. I havent really noticed any benefit and after spending 60quid on two 50mil bottles must say i am questioning the products claims. Its time we had a statement from the manufacturer on this as i think we are all begining to suspect FM's claims, are we being conned, duped or just expecting to much to soon?????????
Come on ITC get our faith back and give us the explanations or encouragement we deserve for putting our faith in this product when spending our hard earn cash!!!!!!!!
Maybe we could have some tested by a lab and substantiate what we are actually paying for.
Anakin
I have also been using a bottle with an expiry date 12/07 which I only bought a few weeks ago. It also says 2 drops/100l. I was dosing directly in the tank and had given up after seeing no results. After reading SCOOB's experience, I tried it in a container with an airline as suggested by Twistedpro but have seen no cloudiness or anything after 12 hours.
i have already knocked up tonights batch but will make another for ditching.
same size tub, brand new out the wrapper, rinsed in ro, drip dry, fill to top with sump water, 10 drops bio, capfull bac, will report back in the morning :)
Thanks Maestro for those threads, I am now totally confused :laugh::laugh:
Basically to sum up,
Someone on RC did a gram stain test on a bottle of zeobak which showed that there was no bacteria present, there was a big uproar.
Eventually someone did another lab test using a microscope and discovered there was in fact bacteria present and that the original test wasnt accurate bacuse the bacteria is help of in some sort of salt solution.
In the end everyone happy
Anybody got a microscope so we can have a look?
I have asked my 5 year old daughter but she has told me I can't use hers. :laugh:
Seriously, how do we prove that this batch is OK?
I don't want to knock the product because I can see changes in my tank since using it. So to be fair something is happening.
Dave
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 21:01
That could be the bacs feeding your present bacteria though Dave.Hopefully Twistedpro will get some under a microscope for us,im not saying that there is no bacteria in this batch but compared to Scotts bottle its giving very different results.
The bacteria as I understood it lays dormant for want of a better phrase in the bottle.And its good for serveral years.
no requirement at all to store in the fridge.
Jez is the FM expert from ITC so you could contact him or alternatively on the FM page there is a contact link direct to Claude.
As ITC are only the distributor Claude may be the better avenue.
Just a thought, you do shake the bottle before dosing?
reefbloke,
Maybe a way to see the difference would be to let scoob use your bottle for a night for his regime.
It might be the heat that is making the bac's multiply faster, from reading the above links, the guy who conducted the mab microscope test also cultured 2 samples for 24hours, the one cultured at 36 hours grew while the one at 25 c didnt.
Just a thought, you do shake the bottle before dosing?
I did :thumbsup:
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 21:46
Yep shakey shakey,ill do a swap with scoob next week and we will see what happens.With regards to temps thats a little worrying as that means the bacteria prefer temps very close to body temp rather than the typical 25-28 degress a reef is set at.Our set ups during the test were identicle,vessel sat on brace bars under sump tube lighting.
Ill report back next week after we have done swappsies.
hi as i am going to be using this filter method in my new tank , a am very concerned with this
why has ITC or claude not been on this thread i do hope there was just one faulty batch and that it is sorted now
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 22:16
I dont want to jump on them via pm so hopefully they will be along at some point to offer advice.I think ill move this to the ITC forum and leave a link here.I must just say though that i have no evidence to prove that my sample is faulty.I just wanted to chew this over with fellow hobbyist to get feed back,hopefully ITC or Claude can use this to their advantage.
As i have said so many times in this thread this system 'DOES' work as i have had first hand experience with Scotts dosing,just not convinced that my particular batch is viable.
Out of curio can you "overdose" this stuff? ie if you doubled the dose or more to see what happens?
Cheers, Shelton.
that good to know it does work , but as you say £30 for a small bottle is alot of money if it is faulty....
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 22:29
Out of curio can you "overdose" this stuff? ie if you doubled the dose or more to see what happens?
Cheers, Shelton.
Used 30 drops in todays sample so will let you know,ill save the rest for Scoob.
Yeah, interesting to see whether the earlier bottles are a bit too weak in formulation?
If he doesn't appear before I should see Ian at Norwich on Saturday so I'll collar him about it! :laugh:
Cheers, Shelton.
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 22:35
Go easy on him lol
you want me to rough him up a little then? :)
Cheers, Shelton.
Reef bloke
14-06-07, 22:48
Lol,I think we will give him the benefit of the doubt before we send 'the boys' round.Im sure Ian or Jez will be along at some point to help clear this up.
I'm doing the same as Scoob, with the live rock, but my pot is partly in the sump so the same temp as the tank, 26 degrees. I set it up last night and this morning there's no cloudiness. :confused:
My Ultra Bio is the 2 drop one and the date is Sept 07, never kept it in the fridge as it doesn't say to do so and neither did my LFS. I always shake it though - it says to on the bottle.
Scoob, what temp does yours get to sat on the brace bar?
Jon
Scoob, what temp does yours get to sat on the brace bar?
no idea, it would rott my probe :D
i'd guess mid-high 20's
no idea, it would rott my probe :D
i'd guess mid-high 20's
small volume of water, under lights, surely it would be higher?
small volume of water, under lights, surely it would be higher?
That's what I'd have thought. ;)
Used 30 drops in todays sample so will let you know,ill save the rest for Scoob.
Any growth/update to this m8 before I hopefully see Ian later?
Cheers, Shelton.
Reef bloke
16-06-07, 01:06
The water has gone a little cloudier but no i cant see much in the way of any bacterial bloom.
The water has gone a little cloudier but no i cant see much in the way of any bacterial bloom.
Same for me, 36 hours on and I don't see anything :(
Nothing for me either and same goes for the prodibio test I did :annoyed:
Tony do you know how Scott has got on without any liverock?
Dave
steve@ cambridge coral tech
16-06-07, 09:13
thought i'd best do the same test as you guys as i started the fauna 5 weeks ago, and reading this got me a bit concernd!!
so i quarter filled a small glass with tank water added 4 drops of bio and 2ml of bak and left on my sump brace bar..after 12 hrs was still gin clear, checked this morning after 24 hrs and is now clouding with a slight wiff, so am assuming mine is ok, the batch is dated 09/07 and is the 2 drop per 100 litre.
I'm wondering if its just purely a case that the earlier bottles aren't as concentrated as the new ones & that either doubling the dose or double the time is required to get the same results?
Cheers, Shelton.
so what have we found out so far that the one scoob has with the one drop instructions is far better than the older ones?
Nothing has been proved one way or the other m8, its just peoples thoughts & observations so far, as I said I'll speak to Ian hopefully later on this morning & either post his reply or see if he might come post thoughts on here.....
Cheers, Shelton.
Twistedpro
16-06-07, 10:54
Depends on when it was packaged and how they are stored in the bottle. depending on the inital viable CFU then the time could be altered although i would expect to see some cloudiness within 24hrs or so
Reef bloke
16-06-07, 14:36
I think its safe to say the 09/07 batch is a better batch at the mo.Scott is in Holland this weekend so i wont hear much from him.
thought i'd best do the same test as you guys as i started the fauna 5 weeks ago, and reading this got me a bit concernd!!
so i quarter filled a small glass with tank water added 4 drops of bio and 2ml of bak and left on my sump brace bar..after 12 hrs was still gin clear, checked this morning after 24 hrs and is now clouding with a slight wiff, so am assuming mine is ok, the batch is dated 09/07 and is the 2 drop per 100 litre.
It's good to see that you are getting a result from this batch. At least it showing that the test should give something.
Be interesting to see how cloudy the water is in another 24 hours.
Dave
Right just back from Norwich, Had a good long chat with Ian about various things! he is aware of this & so are FM.....
They tested a couple from that "batch" they had in Germany & said they are fine, but Ian has said that there are a couple from this country also being sent back to be tested to make sure....
He also said he'll get Jez to come on here & add his comments as he knows more about this.....
Cheers, Shelton.
instantsquid
16-06-07, 22:53
A purely financial aspect of this occurred to me earlier - I paid around £30 for each of my two bottles of UltraBio. They both said "2 drops per 100 litres". The "tweaked" product now only requires "1 drop per 100 litres" - so if you're fortunate to get one of those, you effectively get twice as much product for the same money. :(
Reef bloke
16-06-07, 23:57
Thanks for that Shultz,trouble is its very difficult for us to prove otherwise.Be interested to hear what Jez has to say.
I'm going to now setup the same as scoob, I'm going to dose at the rate on my bottles, but to the same spec as he did, ie double the drops & see what happens over the next 24hrs....
I also found out today that Claude is only just back from holiday so hopefully he'll take a look at this thread as well?
I think people need to take a breath & wait until its proven either way as although its not proof they don't work, its not proof they do at the moment
& its not lab conditions that most of us are testing in, no disrespect meant by that to ANYBODY.... I as much as anybody want to know the money I have spent on a product will do as it said on the bottle :)
**edit**
Right I have a small tub with some small bits of LR rubble in, filled with tank water & added 20 drops (double scoobs) & the capful of Bacs & now we wait, I'll report back in 24hrs...
Cheers, Shelton.
Reef bloke
17-06-07, 00:21
Yep im with ya there Shultz,the stuff works as ive said.Id just like reasurance that my next bottle will be as good as scotts.
Right had a peek when I got up a little while ago & its gone "cloudy" this is after 10 hours, its under a PC light, but not directly & actually floating in the sump water so it should be at standard tank temp around 26C ish!
Cheers, Shelton.
Right had a peek when I got up a little while ago & its gone "cloudy" this is after 10 hours, its under a PC light, but not directly & actually floating in the sump water so it should be at standard tank temp around 26C ish!
Cheers, Shelton.
Proving the point really isn't it! forget about lab conditions etc.
Mines has now been in since Wednesday night and no cloudiness at all! :annoyed:
Dave
Proving the point really isn't it! forget about lab conditions etc.
Mines has now been in since Wednesday night and no cloudiness at all! :annoyed:
Dave
Dave, to save me searching through the thread what size container, how much UltraBio & how much UltraBak did you add to your container?
As I said to duplicate Scoobs experiment I added 20 drops of Bio (his was 10) & the same cap full of Bak? So not dosing as per my tank, but if it was his just using the 2 drops per 100 ltr instead of 1 as per my bottle?
Hope that makes sense?
Cheers, Shelton.
Half a cup of a clear plastic cup, 2 drops of UltraBio and capful of UltraBak.
Which is less UltraBio than you, although I have left it a longer!
I will put in another 18 drops and see what I get.
Dave
I have just put the drops in and swirled it around a bit to mix.
The solution is still clear, however in doing this I am noticing some small (2-3mm) pieces of white fluffy bits that I hadn't noticed before.
I assume that this to be bacterial activity.
Whether this has come from the UltraBio or bacteria in the initial tank water who knows!
Dave
For a comparison I have now created a fresh batch, half a cup, 20 drops of UltraBio and capfull of UltraBak,
Dave
Reef bloke
17-06-07, 12:31
Im starting to get a cloudy mix now but.......i have to leave it at least 36 hours and use the little bit of rock.I put this down to the fact i am now culturing my own bacteria from the tank water.Ill do the same experiment again tonight but without adding the bio and just the baks,i bet i still get the cloudy water.
Scoob mix was most definately down to his bio,within 24 hours his bacterial soup was as cloudy as traditional lemonade,mine is a little cloudy with no smell.
Mine went sort of cloudy pink! :eek:
That was after 48 hours with a bit of live rock. Stuck it in the tank anyway and I'll start another batch tomorrow.
Rdgs
Jon
ive just put a small batch on
15 drops of bio
1 small sample capfull of bak
in a cup with some broken rock bits from sump
see how this goes
R
Mines been about 16hours now, I can smell it when I open the sump doors & its gone a cloudy light pink colour......
Cheers, Shelton.
gary smith
17-06-07, 16:04
i put some in a cup last night i ampule of prodibio bio digest with 2.5 ml of fm bac and a small piece of living rock it has gone a faint pink colour but no smell as yet :thumbsup: Gary
The original batch I made where I put a further 18 drops of UltraBio this morning has now gone cloudy, but not a pink colour. No smell yet!
I am beginning to wonder whether the issue is concentration of bacteria, rather than no bacteria.
The other batch I made up this morning same proportions is still clear. Be interesting to see whether that is cloudy in the morning and how long that takes to cloud up.
Dave
13 hours since making the batch today, still no change
Dave
Mine has now been 32 hours & has not gotten anymore cloudy/pink.....
But! I've had a brain fart this morning, I don't know how higher Nitrates the rest of you are running at? My test kit says 10, so not that bad..... Remember though that Scoob was up at 70 whilst doing his experiment so how much was the growth in the sump to do with all that lovely Nitrate to eat rather than how much or how little Bacteria there is in these bottles???
So is any who's trying this & not getting anywhere got high Nitrates or just like me trying to kill off the last few??
Cheers, Shelton.
well got up this morning, fuge lights were on
so i thought ide take a look
i set this batch up at, 1400 on the sunday
with the following
15 drops of bio
1 small sample capfull of bak
in a cup with some broken rock bits from sump
and its now, very cloudy, quite thick, cant tell if its pink though, as the liquid is in a red beaker, :doh: not bad after 16 hours, im gonna make loads
looks promising:D
sorry
forgot to mention, nitrates currently at 10
R
Glad mine's not the only one going pink! :laugh:
My nitrates are about 25. Good point about Scoob's being 70 to start with. ;)
Interesting point about the nitrates, mine are about 2.5ppm
I will test tonight and see if it has reduced in the cups.
Dave
I thought I would join in the experiment and took a sample of tank water, added some baks and mins, no bio, and after 12 hours the water turned a pink colour.
I have now added some substrate to see if that makes any difference.
So those who see pink, it would appear that this would happen anyway, without the bio.
My nitrates are 1 - 2.5.
Hmmmmmmm, thats an interesting find then, so the baks is creating the pink?
I'm going to set it up again in a mo & try 40 drops, so that would be double the dose of scoob & see if it slimes then, it should prove about the strenght of this 2 drop stuff?
Has anybody with the 2 drop bottle bit the bullet & gone & bought a newer 1 drop version to see what happens with their setup?? Would be better to compare 2 identical samples side by side?
Cheers, Shelton.
To clarify, mine went pink but not cloudy, its a clear pink.
A couple of times in the past I’ve decided to through away a piece of rock for one reason or another and just plonked them in the back garden in a bucket with some water. When I’ve gone to clean the bucket after it’s been sat in the sun all day I’ve found the water had gone pink. So it seems pink water can’t be used as a sign that bio is working.
Latest batch with 20 drops UltraBio and capfull UltraBak made 18 hours ago is still clear :annoyed:
Dave
After reading scott's post we thought we would give it a go,we are only on day four but for the sake of it here is our results and findings from our log.
Day Four:
Nothing new on the containers contents(still cloudy water)added a new piece of rock and dropped the other in the display(feels slimey)things do look a lot better in the display,apart from a little cyano on the sand,LPS and softies are looking their best so something must be changing,.
Since the first day of dosing we never experienced pink water just cloudy/murky,as i was the one doing the changes i also couldn't smell anything(how far in did you place your nose scott?:laugh: ).
Only changes from ours to scotts is we couldn't have the container sitting on a brace as this is where our lights rest,ours was floating in the sump.
We have the two drop bottle,we are adding nine drops of bio and one capful of bak to the container,(following Scott's routine changing in a 24hr period)our no3 is in and around the 50mg (salifert) we will test towards the weekend.
Jim
Jim
What's the expiry date on your bottle of UltraBio
Dave
The only thing thats dropped since I've been dosing has been my bank balance :rolleyes:
Good work Guys, I've started a little experiment along the lines of the above :)
Jim
What's the expiry date on your bottle of UltraBio
Dave
Bio is 09/07 bak is: 19/11
Jim
Bio is 09/07 bak is: 19/11
Jim
Mines later, same as Reef Bloke.
My Bio is 12/07 bak is 1/12/07 although the back label is UltraMinS.
Dave
Hmmmmmmm, thats an interesting find then, so the baks is creating the pink?
I'm going to set it up again in a mo & try 40 drops, so that would be double the dose of scoob & see if it slimes then, it should prove about the strenght of this 2 drop stuff?
Has anybody with the 2 drop bottle bit the bullet & gone & bought a newer 1 drop version to see what happens with their setup?? Would be better to compare 2 identical samples side by side?
Cheers, Shelton.
Shelton
What's the expiry date on your bottles?
Dave
Bio: 12/07
Bak: something 2008 as the label has been wet!
Not setup up the 40 drops yet, but will be updating later
Cheers, Shelton.
Bio: 12/07
Bak: something 2008 as the label has been wet!
Not setup up the 40 drops yet, but will be updating later
Cheers, Shelton.
Interesting, Bio is the same batch I assume, same dosage, different results.
The only thing is different is nitrate levels and UltraBak.
We've been asumming it's the UltraBio but maybe it's the UltraBak.
I wonder, remember that my bottle has UltraBak on the front, UltraMinS on the back.
I'm going to make up again 20 drops and a cap full of UltraMinS this time.
Problem is I am near enough through my bottle of Bio.
Dave
If you replace ithe Bio make sure you get a new 1 drop version & then if you wouldn't mind running the same test & see whether you get different results?
Cheers, Shelton.
Spoke to Claude last night via email.
he has been away hence no reply but he was also not sure of what the real problem is here.
Some key points he made.
1. in affect there is no sell by date, its good for a good while.
2. Bottle must be shaken very well prior to use and stored in a cool place, but do not freeze.
3. first batches did say 2 drops, this was amended down to 1 and i also get the impression the concentration has changed slightly.
4. the key is of course some people will see quicker results than others. Every tank will also be different in its own make up, so comparisons are missleading.
jobr thanks for your post.
From what you are saying is the bottles labeled 12/07 (2 drops) are an older batch than the bottles labeled 09/07 (1 drop).
Dave
jobr thanks for your post.
From what you are saying is the bottles labeled 12/07 (2 drops) are an older batch than the bottles labeled 09/07 (1 drop).
Dave
Yes Dave that is how it looks.
Not sure and only guessing but I just wonder if the above can be explained away by possibly the wrong labels going on the bottles as per one of my earlier posts.
i think its safe to assume the dose should be 1 drop regardless of what your label says, and as above I would read nothing in to the use by date.
Twistedpro
19-06-07, 08:47
Did he say why not to keep in the fridge??
Did he say why not to keep in the fridge??
No (sorry).
Just had another email, he is sorry he hasn't been on UR but is very busy workwise and has been away from home a lot.
As soon as he has more time he will be back on UR.
Twisted, my apologies.
Just re checked the email (Claude may be struggling to understand my English), it says store cool but do not freeze.
No mention of fridge, i will edit my post above.
blimey, go away for 5 minutes and the world posts :D
right if i miss anything pull me up, just speed read 6 pages :)
Dave, i did the test without rock, after 24 hour i had very cloudy water. imagine pouring a bit of milk into water, stir it up, that kind of thing. i could see the bottom of my 2 inch deep tub, but i couldn't have read a newspaper through it.
i haven't seen a pink colour since my nitrates hit 3, 3 seems to be where they have stayed, but over the last 5 or so days the regime hasn't been as religious as before due to being away. the bi boobied one was dosing half a cap of bac and when i got in at 2 this morning the tub stank skankier than a skanky stank on a hot summers day. i poured it in and just refilled the tub and rock with tank water. i shall dispose of this at some point this afternoon, swop the rocks and start afresh :)
Twistedpro
19-06-07, 10:58
Hi Jobr,
You could only freeze the samples if you added a cryoprotectant like glycerol. Then you need to flash freeze in liquid nitrogen. It seemed strange that it was a no to fridge as this is common practice for storage of live bacteria
Regards
Peter
i haven't seen a pink colour since my nitrates hit 3, 3 seems to be where they have stayed
you've dropped 67mg/l NO3 in next to no time at all.
That means that the bacteria have consumed .... 80.4g of NO3 given a total volume of about 1200l which I think is right for you (?)
blimey.
Amazing drop! :dance::dance::dance::dance:
Just proves that the product can work!
My latest batch which has now been cultivating for over 48 hours is still clear :annoyed: (20 drops Bio, cap full of Bak).
Dave
he is doing vast water changes at present as well people :thumbsup:
he is doing vast water changes at present as well people :thumbsup:
Who is? Scoob? I though he was giving that a rest and doing more normal sized changes, well, normal compared to his 200%/month changes.
Who is? Scoob? I though he was giving that a rest and doing more normal sized changes, well, normal compared to his 200%/month changes.
yes but i think he was doing them when the fall from 70 was happening :thumbsup:
yes but i think he was doing them when the fall from 70 was happening :thumbsup:
From that thread
...
and no, i didn't stick to my regime of water changes (hence slow update of my RSCP salt review) but i did add 15 gallons* to the system and did a 20% water change somewhere in the middle. slowed right down to the norm tho.
*my tank had its first powercut. when it dropped my sump level rose by 4mm :D made me think why the hell isn't this thing full then, about 10-15gallon to fill it to within an inch of the top.
Reef bloke
19-06-07, 16:17
Nope he stopped water changing when he started the bio as the water changes were getting him nowhere fast.
Yes Dave that is how it looks.
Not sure and only guessing but I just wonder if the above can be explained away by possibly the wrong labels going on the bottles as per one of my earlier posts.
i think its safe to assume the dose should be 1 drop regardless of what your label says, and as above I would read nothing in to the use by date.
Cant be right,my bottle clearly says 09/07 and to add 2 drops per 100ltr, i think for the cost of this stuff attention should be priority on the labels and clear instructions.
Anyways im continuing to follow my label as i am seeing results in the display,allthough no change in No3 as of yet but were only on day five.
Jim
Cant be right,my bottle clearly says 09/07 and to add 2 drops per 100ltr, i think for the cost of this stuff attention should be priority on the labels and clear instructions.
Anyways im continuing to follow my label as i am seeing results in the display,allthough no change in No3 as of yet but were only on day five.
Jim
Jim the correct dose is 1 drop per 100litres.
My first bottle was 2drops and i used it as such (nothing untoward happened), but Claude clearly stated the recommended dose is now 1 drop per 100 litres.
Now going to test my Nitrates.....Not looking for trouble but just posting an observation....I find it mighty strange that Jez, Ian & Claude have all been invited to post on this thread, all 3 are aware of this thread, yet silence?????
P.S has anybody on this thread who has seen no reaction with the 2 drop bottle bit the bullet & bought a newer 1 drop bottle?
Edit: just tested Nitrates & still got 10, but since last friday I've been double dosing my tank with 5 drops in the morning & then 5 drops + Bak in the evening & its not made a difference in 5 days? Sooooooooo, is it as low as it will take my tank without (or with) Ultralith because I feed heavy with the FM food range, or is there a duff batch???
Cheers, Shelton.
.....Not looking for trouble but just posting an observation....I find it mighty strange that Jez, Ian & Claude have all been invited to post on this thread, all 3 are aware of this thread, yet silence?????
i find that extremely strange, a total lack of customer support. If they know there is a problem then hold your hands up and admit it, just hiding in the background is doing them no favours.
I was all set to go down the bak and mins route but this thread has made me think twice and now looking at other manufacturers similar products.
I find it mighty strange that Jez, Ian & Claude have all been invited to post on this thread, all 3 are aware of this thread, yet silence?????
They were last spotted heading off into the sunset on horseback:D
They were last spotted heading off into the sunset on horseback:D
Hmmmmmmmmm, with large saddlebags full of money? :wave:
Personally now looking at Prodibio as an alternative as since this is in separate ampules it can't be contaminated by outside factors?
Cheers, Shelton.
They were last spotted heading off into the sunset on horseback:D
:laugh: :laugh:
We are fully aware and awaiting the tests of the samples in Germany, as I told Shelton on Saturday?
When we get the results and have something usefull to contribute, ie an answer, we will. Untill then there is nothing to say?
I am confused as to what we could say right now?
i think just what you have posted is fine, but could have been done a few days ago IMO
Reef bloke
19-06-07, 20:48
Thanks for the response Ian,we await the results.
Ah! I did post you were sending the samples to Germany, but you also said that both Jez & Claude were aware & better placed to answer the questions???
All I'm saying is it doesn't look good when people are asking questions about why a product has changed & why they aren't getting results & nobody concerned with the product even acknowledges this?
Atleast you have bothered to show? I noticed Jez posted on here earlier, but not on this thread?
Cheers, Shelton.
Twistedpro
19-06-07, 21:07
I have heard from Jez via PM, not much to post until some results are found. I still think the products are excellent and will continue to use them. The larger bottles have not been around that long. However i do agree a bit more info on them would be good
The only thing thats dropped since I've been dosing has been my bank balance :rolleyes:
Good work Guys, I've started a little experiment along the lines of the above :)
Well, 2 drops of the Bio into 200ml Water, left for 24Hours @ ~ 25degC and nothing :(
exp 12/07
designsonline.co.uk
19-06-07, 22:22
I notice that most peopl eseem to be dosing Ultra Bio in conjunction with Baks... Is this needed? can you dose Ultra Bio on it's own? I bought a bottle of the Ultra Bio and have been dosing it (5 drops a day - 1 drop per 100 litres) Ive only been doing this for 2 days now, but I would rather not be wasting the stuff at £30 a bottle if I need to also dose something else at the same time for it to work?
It didnt mention being used in conjunction with anything else on the bottle...
Joe
I started using this after seeing Scott's right up,i believe the Bak is a food source for the Bio.
Jim
Reef bloke
19-06-07, 22:45
Yep you will need a food source,id suggest you use baks or failing that vodka/vinegar mix.
designsonline.co.uk
19-06-07, 22:57
ive got a bottle of vodka in the sump what sort of amounts would I need to dose?
Joe
Right, just ordered some Prodibio BioDigest, so hopefully that should be here Thursday, I'll then use 1 ampule to try a sump test on it & see whether I get any good growth with that, which will prove whether its the UltraBio or not in my case.....
Cheers, Shelton.
Right, just ordered some Prodibio BioDigest, so hopefully that should be here Thursday, I'll then use 1 ampule to try a sump test on it & see whether I get any good growth with that, which will prove whether its the UltraBio or not in my case.....
Cheers, Shelton.
If you look early in thread I tried this, but didn't get any results.
Prior to using FM, I had been using ProdiBio for 3 months without seeing any effect on my tank.
I will be interested to see if you get any results.
Dave
Hi
Just to clarify things think my brain is getting old and Fuzzy you have been playing with ultra bio to try and culture the bacteria usually in a warm litre of saltwater that has been spiked with a nutrient source such as bio food or ultra bak, some of you are seeing results others are not.
I have received a pm last week from twisted pro and have reffered his comments about not being able to culture it in the lab to Claude who is looking into the matter. This thread has sort of exploded whilst I was away I posted some balling stuff at JOBR's request but did not have the time to get into what was a small thread at the time and had already pm'ed Twisted.
Anyway at this point there is little to be said until we get some sort of definitive response from Claude I have forwarded all this thread to him.
So in the end how many of you have had a good culture and how many of you have not and did you all use a food source as phos and nitrate plus carbon are needed for this stuff to grow. Also from all the different comments its hard to filter out who has what batch expiry date.
So I have started another thread to post culture results if you lack a full blown lab then suggest litre of water constant temp suitable food source date of expiry and how you have stored the stuff so we can get an idea of whats going on.
thanks for the help
Jez
I have also been doing a similar test with my bottle of Ultrabio. Put a piece of live rock in a container, added 15 drops of Ultrabio and a capful of Ultrabak 36 hours ago and still not a thing. No cloudiness, pink colouration, etc. My nitrates are around 70ppm, similar to SCOOB's at the start of his experiment. If I don't see any change tonight, I might do a nitrate test on the water in the container to see if it has dropped - has anyone tried that? The othe (possibly) concerning thing is that my lfs received a bottle of Ultrabio last Friday from the distributor and it was the 2 drops/100 ml bottle. I did not check the expiry date but it does not make sense. SCOOB must have bought his bottle nearly 4 weeks ago and he got the new stuff whereas my lfs received his last week and unless there are two new versions (1 drop and 2 drops per 100ml) being produced, my lfs has been supplied old stock. If that is the case, I hope it is a genuine mistake and not a case of biased supply policy.
. If that is the case, I hope it is a genuine mistake and not a case of biased supply policy.
Biased supply?
If I don't see any change tonight, I might do a nitrate test on the water in the container to see if it has dropped - has anyone tried that?
Just done this test and no3 shows zero,which i would expect as the container only holds about a half pint of water with enough bio for 450ltrs:)
Jim
Biased supply?
The lfs SCOOB purchased from nearly a month ago got presumably the new stock where you used 1 drop/100ml whereas my lfs ordered his supply last week and got the bottle where you used 2 drops/100ml. If I were to buy a new bottle from my lfs tommorrow, I would effectively be paying twice as much as SCOOB paid for a purchase nearly 4 weeks ago. So either, there are two different bottles of the same product being currently manufactured (which would not make sense), or some lfs are still being supplied old stock weeks after other lfs have had the newer stock or my lfs received the supposedly old stock by mistake.
The lfs SCOOB purchased from nearly a month ago got presumably the new stock where you used 1 drop/100ml whereas my lfs ordered his supply last week and got the bottle where you used 2 drops/100ml. If I were to buy a new bottle from my lfs tommorrow, I would effectively be paying twice as much as SCOOB paid for a purchase nearly 4 weeks ago. So either, there are two different bottles of the same product being currently manufactured (which would not make sense), or some lfs are still being supplied old stock weeks after other lfs have had the newer stock or my lfs received the supposedly old stock by mistake.
scoob got his from STM i believe - where Jez also works :rolleyes:
So in the end how many of you have had a good culture and how many of you have not and did you all use a food source as phos and nitrate plus carbon are needed for this stuff to grow. Also from all the different comments its hard to filter out who has what batch expiry date.
Jez
I don't think anybody with 12/07 has had any results
1 drop 9/07 seems to get results.
Bit unclear about 2 drop 9/07 bottles as some people using liverock, but I am guessing not.
Anyway that's the way I am reading the thread.
I am picking up a 9/07 bottle (2 drop) tomorrow and will conduct the same tests as previous and I will measure the NO3 before and after 24 hours in the container this time.
Dave
When i do tomorrow's dose i will dose 1 drop per 100ltrs and see if there are any changes to the current 2 drop's,results posted friday.
Jim
If you look early in thread I tried this, but didn't get any results.
Prior to using FM, I had been using ProdiBio for 3 months without seeing any effect on my tank.
I will be interested to see if you get any results.
Dave
Missed that m8, shop was out of stock even though the website showed otherwise! might see if I can get hold of 1 or 2 ampules to test?
Cheers, Shelton.
Hi
It makes me laugh you lot and the things you manage to think up
ohh biased supply of product :D it gets better and better oh for that amount of time on my hands to think up reasons why something is not working :-)
Jez
Hi
Just so we are clear if there is a problem batch the bottles will be replaced I am interested in seeing the results so keep posting.
A question for the biologist chemist et all about food sources.
If you are using sterile water and only ultra bak as a food source will the lack of phosphate be a problem as far as I am aware Bak has a number of food sources in the bottle but all need phosphate to work or am I being simplistic here. Also the same applies to tank water with low phosphates and high nitrates.
Any hard science comments would be welcomed.
Hi
It makes me laugh you lot and the things you manage to think up
ohh biased supply of product :D it gets better and better oh for that amount of time on my hands to think up reasons why something is not working :-)
Jez
Like the fact most of them are not using it as directed:whistling: and the fact it doesn't produce miracles in 5 seconds:p
i dont care how long it takes to work
as long as the product works, as directed, then i am happy:D
its good to know, that during the test (water in sump, bio, bak etc) , and adding too much of each, that the bio, bacteria and crap in the live rock. are doing what they are supposed to do
if people were to carry on like that, it would cost a fortune, and the products, wernt deseigned to work like that, they were designed and marketed to work over time,this is how im going to use the products now,
i am fully for, using the fauna marin products and am basing my new system around them, and if the tests that everyone are carrying out, are working, then great, but i think people should give them a chance to work (over time) how their meant to be
people say that youre meant to give a marine aquarium chance and time to mature, live rock, bacteria etc, but what if you accelerate this process so much
that youre infact, doing the reverse, by increasing to much bacteria, capable of dealing with massive bio load, this is good in short term (sorting everybodys nitrates etc out) but what about when its got to that point, that it cant do anymore, and people are still chucking in cupfulls of excellerated, soup that they are concocting in there sumps
could that have an effect on youre system, just becuase people arnt patient?
just my view, not an argument
regards
R
Twistedpro
20-06-07, 23:06
Possibly although i would still expect to see some growth. I will double check on the bacterial strains and see what their pathways are (Anything to distract me from Thesis writing). I wanted a sterile conditions so i only cultured the bacteria in the bottle. (I don't know what is in the Ultrabak i assumed it would have everything needed for growth of the bacteria) The prodi bio did produce a result though.
I had the same result on intial tests using tank water with a trace of phosphate in. I can add phosphate to the other batches.
(I did not conduct this to alter the way the product works, i noticed i was getting a nitrate increase and lack of bacterial film since changing from the old vials to the new 50ml bottle) I will go and buy another bottle with a different date if needed
steve@ cambridge coral tech
20-06-07, 23:41
mine is the 09/07 2 drop, and was fine, i used no live rock just tank water, bio and bak, was cloudy within 24hrs....very cloudy after 36hrs, so mine is a ok:)
oh.. my p04 in my tank is un detetable on the deltec kit and nitrate is 3ppm (hannah)
Hi
Just so we are clear if there is a problem batch the bottles will be replaced I am interested in seeing the results so keep posting.
A question for the biologist chemist et all about food sources.
If you are using sterile water and only ultra bak as a food source will the lack of phosphate be a problem as far as I am aware Bak has a number of food sources in the bottle but all need phosphate to work or am I being simplistic here. Also the same applies to tank water with low phosphates and high nitrates.
Any hard science comments would be welcomed.
I didn't think that our tank water was completely devoid of phosphates even though it may show zero on the test kits. Is this what you are suggesting? :confused: and phosphates are a limiting nutrient for the de-nitrifying bacteria?
As I have a fairly low phosphates, this is why I am not getting much bacterial growth from the test I am performing?
Also with Scoob's experiment the live rock had possibly accumulated phosphates and that's why there was a massive explosion in bacteria population.
So if I add phosphates to the solution, I should then get bacteria growth.
Also if using FM products in a fairly phosphate free environment, you are not going to see much reduction in nitrates unless you provided phosphates. Therefore I am concluding from you are saying is that we shouldn't be using phosphate removers with the FM products then.
Dave
designsonline.co.uk
21-06-07, 00:55
Does anyone know what would happen if a bottle (or half a bottle) of Bio was added to a bottle of vodka?
Would it produce a large bottle of ultra bio?
Joe
Therefore I am concluding from you are saying is that we shouldn't be using phosphate removers with the FM products then.
I thought that was the case anyway, the recommend constant use of carbon but no Phosphate media once you have it down to trace levels. I was trying to get a fluidising reactor into the design but when I started down the FM Ultra route I removed it from the plan.
I assume this would be because the FM product's bacteria are not there just to reduce nitrate but also phosphate and competing with them by using phosphate removing chemical media will nutrient limit them so that they cannot consume the remaining nitrate.
Does anyone know what would happen if a bottle (or half a bottle) of Bio was added to a bottle of vodka?
Would it produce a large bottle of ultra bio?
Joe
no, the higher level of ethanol will probably kill the bacteria
I thought that was the case anyway, the recommend constant use of carbon but no Phosphate media once you have it down to trace levels. I was trying to get a fluidising reactor into the design but when I started down the FM Ultra route I removed it from the plan.
I assume this would be because the FM product's bacteria are not there just to reduce nitrate but also phosphate and competing with them by using phosphate removing chemical media will nutrient limit them so that they cannot consume the remaining nitrate.
The thing is Alan I have never really suffered phosphates in my system. Since the start I have had a large algae bed and fluidised Rowaphos. Also never dosed Kalk.
I noticed that with ProdiBio that the macro algae in the tank reduced. But since dosing the FM products it has nearly completely disappeared from my display tank but not from my algae bed. I think that this is because of consumption from the tangs etc and the algae not growing back. Growth in the algae bed is significantly reduced also.
My nitrates have remained stubbornly around the 2.5ppm mark for the last 4-5 months, so I conclude that phosphates must be the limiting nutrient.
The only thing that is bugging me in this is that nitrifying bacteria also need to have a level of phosphates. Why isn't my tank full of ammonium! so there must be trace levels of phosphates in the water.
It's such a leap of faith to remove my fluidising phosphate reactor! I have never seen this mentioned before.
Dave
It's such a leap of faith to remove my fluidising phosphate reactor! I have never seen this mentioned before.
Dave
Hi Dave
I'm pretty sure in The FM system they say to get phsophates to a low level before commencing then remove the reactor and certainly one of the "additional benefits" of the zeovit system is the need not to use phosban or similar
Robert
Hi Dave
I'm pretty sure in The FM system they say to get phsophates to a low level before commencing then remove the reactor and certainly one of the "additional benefits" of the zeovit system is the need not to use phosban or similar
Robert
The instructions on the FM site only say
But Zeolites can even do another trick! Inside the Zeolite filter, there is a small but constant abrasion of the material, which contains a lot of aluminium. These tiny particles bind phosphate. By leading the outflow of the Zeolite filter into the protein skimmer the abrasion is skimmed off, thereby removing phosphates from the aquarium.
The feeding of the bacteria substantially increases the bacterial biomass inside the filter, which again results in a binding of phosphate. Dead bacteria will either be removed by the skimmer or serve as food to some animals, especially filter feeders. Eventually the Zeolites will be clogged up by the bacteria. This is the reason why the material has to be exchanged regularly.
In older tanks or in tanks with a high nutrient levels a reduction of phosphate with UltraPhos or Ultra Powerphos before the use of Ultralith is recommended. If you are unsure, please feel free to mail or call us. We are looking forward to help you.
In certain cases a preliminary reduction of phosphate with an adsorber like UltraPhos or UltraPowerphos is necessary.
I suppose the last sentence could be read that way :confused:
Dave
Phoshate issuse
1. When starting using bak and min-s some sort of work needs to have been done to get phoshpate to some sort of managable level. Its amazing the number of people who have over 1ppm of phosphate in their tanks. The main reason for suggesting getting under control is that the product can cause an algae bloom usually cyno.
2. During the initial stages you can remove phoshate absorbers but you need to beaware that initially levels may rise due to lack of bacteri to consume them if they rise then its best to use a little aborber to keep them in check.
3. In culturing bacteria I think minimal phoshates will impede growth
As a final thought I am not really sure that adding large volumes of bacteria to any system is a good idea it need to develop over time IMHO.
Hez
This is an interesting thread, Twistedpro is the one to watch here ;)
I will be using the bio/bak to help mature some reef bones, I still think it is a useful tool for the reefer to have.
Following on from Robert, dave and Jez's post.
Prior to going over to ULNS, I had a trace of PO4.
In the old tank before the switch I dosed just bio and bak.
When I swapped to the new larger tank at start up for a few weeks PO4 remainded low.
I continued to dose just bio and bak and also by now had a Grotech reactor with ultralith.
I then started to slowly introduce Min s.
PO4 climbed a bit (no remover had been used for 2 weeks since the tank change), so i popped some back in to get the levels low again.
The test will be in a couple of weeks when i again attempt to run without removers in the hope now that the bacteria are now at a high enough level.
I now only dose Bio weekly, bak and Min S still daily.
Jez, would there be a benefit to my weekly bio being dosed direct in to the reactor as opposed to the sump/tank?
Phoshate issuse
1. When starting using bak and min-s some sort of work needs to have been done to get phoshpate to some sort of managable level. Its amazing the number of people who have over 1ppm of phosphate in their tanks. The main reason for suggesting getting under control is that the product can cause an algae bloom usually cyno.
2. During the initial stages you can remove phoshate absorbers but you need to beaware that initially levels may rise due to lack of bacteri to consume them if they rise then its best to use a little aborber to keep them in check.
3. In culturing bacteria I think minimal phoshates will impede growth
As a final thought I am not really sure that adding large volumes of bacteria to any system is a good idea it need to develop over time IMHO.
Hez
Ok Jez,
Let's see if I got this right, from what you are suggesting if I remove my fluidising reactor. Then keep a close eye (daily) on PO4 levels. Any increase, knock back by running PO4 absorber for a few days until levels back down to 0. Then remove the media and continue to watch the PO4 levels. Keep on doing this until I am achieving 0 PO4 levels without the use of media.
Dave
Phoshate issuse
1. When starting using bak and min-s some sort of work needs to have been done to get phoshpate to some sort of managable level. Its amazing the number of people who have over 1ppm of phosphate in their tanks. The main reason for suggesting getting under control is that the product can cause an algae bloom usually cyno.
2. During the initial stages you can remove phoshate absorbers but you need to beaware that initially levels may rise due to lack of bacteri to consume them if they rise then its best to use a little aborber to keep them in check.
Hez
Hi Jez
PS Guess pretty much the same as Dave's question, though mine isn't fluidised
I've been using the free samples of Ultrabak and Ultramin S you kindly sent me.
Phosphates are 0 (on the Salifert kit), NO3 around 10ppm.
I am using Ultiphos in a refillable cartridge in a Tunze Quick Change Filter. Would you advise me to remove it?
Thanks,
Chris
May help to have a read of this?
http://www.faunamarin.de/eng/ultralithsystem.php
Twistedpro
21-06-07, 10:26
I have been having a think about this overnight, and to say that the phosphate we measure in the tank is a limiting factor is slightly ambiguous as phosphate is combined in many different ways to other elements. Phosphate is used by the bacteria in the system and is removed by converting phosphate into polyphospahte which is then most likely skimmed out.
However for an example of growth Nitrosomonas europaea is a faculative chemolithoautotroph it primalry uses Ammonia which it oxidises to nitrite and uses CO2 as a carbon source. It assimilates CO2 by ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase and the reductive pentose phosphate cycle. However if this was its only method it would be an obligate chemolithoautotroph. However it has the ability to use other carbon source such as fructose or pyruvate (Hommes et al, 2003)
So phosphate is used, however to say that because the reading from the tank is 0 would be misleading. Without knowing every element in the food, every element in the water and salt mix and to go through every bacteria's cycle and work out what is a limiting factor for growth its difficult to say.
If i get time i will conduct a gram stain on my sample and put it under the microscope. Although it depends on how the bacteria are stored.
Again i am not after altering the product or how it works, i just want to work out why the bacterial film and mulm has stopped on the glass and reactor.
If i get time i will conduct a gram stain on my sample and put it under the microscope. Although it depends on how the bacteria are stored.
From reading back on reef central a gram stain test doesnt show anything due to the way it it stored, a saline solution I think it said.
Twistedpro
21-06-07, 10:49
I t would not surprise me if they are stored in a phosphate buffered salt solution (PBS)
OK, I do seem to be getting some success with the ultrabio/bak tests. I have the 2ml/litre bottle with an expiry date of 12/07. As I have mentioned earlier, I tried to copy the test similar to SCOOB (however, the test beaker was kept in the garage rather than on top of the sump). I placed a piece of live rock in a beaker with tank water and added 15 drops of Ultrabio and a capful of the sample bottle of Ultrabak. Got nothing after 24 hours and nothing of significance after 36 hours. However, after 48 hours the water got cloudy. I did a nitrate test of the water in the beaker and it read zero (my nitrates going in the beaker were around 60/70). I have poured the contents of the beaker in my sump except for about half an inch of water which I have left in the beaker. To this and the live rock, I have added some more tank water. The new reading of the water in the test beaker is just over 50 (possible slight dilution by the water left from the earlier test, besides I can never read the Salifert test very accurately). I am hoping the half inch of water from the original test may speed up the test second time around. I have also reduced the number of drops for the new test from 15 to 8 but still a capful of Ultrabak. I will check after 24 hours to see what the results are. I am expecting the water to be cloudy due to the presence of some of the original water but I am interested to see what the nitrate reading will be after 24 hours. The other thing of note is that there was absolutely no smell from the beaker which is good.
From reading back on reef central a gram stain test doesnt show anything due to the way it it stored, a saline solution I think it said.
Gram staining will work fine (i used to run microbiology at work) saline is used routinely in gram staining and even if it did cause it not to work that is simple enough to deal with.. a quick buffer exchange is all that is needed...
the most likely cause of the lack of observed results is due to the fact that you need access the high quality microscopes fitted with oli immersion lenses in order to see bacteria.
i work with pete (twistedpro) if i can get him to bring some ultra bio in i will stain it up and i will also put some into proper nutrient broth/agar cultures . i can also do some dilution experiments to tell you the no of CFU (colony forming units, cells) per ml.
If people are really interested and want to send me different batches i can test them all and do a batch on batch comparison
Wanted to join in all this fun but as my Bio ran out a few weeks ago I was stuck for what to do.
Then I came up with the idea of seeing how long the effects of Bio would stay in the tank as this is what we all want in the end.
So I have done the Scoob thing using only water from my Zeo reactor after shaking and a cap full of Bak for food. Added the live rock as well to keep it the same.
Result was that after 24hr's under lights I had a pretty good soup mix. It was a cloudy mix with white bits on top.
Will repeat for a few days and see if I can repeat the results.
So the good news is that once you have the Bio in the tank it will keep going until it runs out of food.
Hope this adds to the thread.
RichB.
Picked up a 09/07 batch today (2 drops) and I am performing exactly the same as before. Will leave it 24 hours and post the results.
The first thing I notice is that there are small white specks of material in the solution. I assume these to be dead cells and the solution seems cloudier.
The previous bottle (12/07) was completely devoid of this material.
Dave
Gram staining will work fine (i used to run microbiology at work) saline is used routinely in gram staining and even if it did cause it not to work that is simple enough to deal with.. a quick buffer exchange is all that is needed...
the most likely cause of the lack of observed results is due to the fact that you need access the high quality microscopes fitted with oli immersion lenses in order to see bacteria.
i work with pete (twistedpro) if i can get him to bring some ultra bio in i will stain it up and i will also put some into proper nutrient broth/agar cultures . i can also do some dilution experiments to tell you the no of CFU (colony forming units, cells) per ml.
If people are really interested and want to send me different batches i can test them all and do a batch on batch comparison
If you wouldn't mind mate, that'd be great :cool:
I'll drop you a pm :)
The thinking of having very low levels of phosphates in the tank by Jez makes sense to how my system has performed over the last few months.
I was unsuccesfully running an SPS with a persistent nitrate reading of 40 and a very low phosphate reading due to fluidising Rowaphos. A tank full of brown SPS and wafer thin fish as a result of nearly starving them in an attempt to reduce my nitrates.
I started dosing 5ml of Ultra-Bak daily in my 200 gal system. Nitrates plumetted and I upped my feeding regime from just 1 cube to 5 cubes of frozen each day as well as lettuce for my tangs. My tank looked better and better each day. Nitrates remained almost undectable. SPS were growing colouring up and extending their polyps.
Then came all the posts on here about the amount of phosphate in frozen food and the need to rinse. It was then that I started to rinse my food with plenty of RO. Now my nitrate is slowly rising and my corals are looking brown as a result.
I am thinking that the phosphate I was adding to my tank in the frozen food was enough of a level to feed the bacteria without detrimental effect on my coral and if anything a positive effect. I will probably go back to just thawing the food in tank water and dumping it in as before.
Doug.
Reef bloke
21-06-07, 21:39
So you didnt add any bio doug doug just the food/baks?
So you didnt add any bio doug doug just the food/baks?
Just the baks yes. I can only guess that I already had bacteria in my system - just not enough. Other than incresing my feeding of frozen food as the nitrate fell, the baks addition was the only change.
I'll admit that I've skipped a few of the posts on this thread (at work shhhh...) , so appologies if I'm repeating anything from before.
I've just started doing the scoob style thing. I must have a fairly recent bottle as I ordered it from STM and it arrived on Monday (18th). I've a 1l jug with the 'fist sized' lump of LR in it. I'm doing 10 drops of bio and 10 drops (ish) of bak daily.
I've had exactly the same response as Sccob had.
i.e. slightly pink water after the first day, almost red the next and last night it had small white lumps in it. The rock is looking bleached and the 6 (!) bristle worms living in the rock have died.
I'll be swapping my rock more often that Scoob did (my other half would not be pleased if I were stinking the house out!).
I think the rock thing is interesting as it seems to produce more bacteria (the pink colour) when 'fresh' , so I'll not be reusing any.
I've read with interest the posts about the phosphate levels as I've always had high levels and blamed it on my overfeeding habit, So I'll be interested to see what happedn to mine.
I only test my water once a week on the basis that it was depressing me too much when whatever I tried didn't work (not to mention putting a litre of Absolut Vodka in the tank to no avail).
I'll test my water this weekend and report back.
I'll admit that I've skipped a few of the posts on this thread (at work shhhh...) , so appologies if I'm repeating anything from before.
I've just started doing the scoob style thing. I must have a fairly recent bottle as I ordered it from STM and it arrived on Monday (18th). I've a 1l jug with the 'fist sized' lump of LR in it. I'm doing 10 drops of bio and 10 drops (ish) of bak daily.
I've had exactly the same response as Sccob had.
i.e. slightly pink water after the first day, almost red the next and last night it had small white lumps in it. The rock is looking bleached and the 6 (!) bristle worms living in the rock have died.
I'll be swapping my rock more often that Scoob did (my other half would not be pleased if I were stinking the house out!).
I think the rock thing is interesting as it seems to produce more bacteria (the pink colour) when 'fresh' , so I'll not be reusing any.
I've read with interest the posts about the phosphate levels as I've always had high levels and blamed it on my overfeeding habit, So I'll be interested to see what happedn to mine.
I only test my water once a week on the basis that it was depressing me too much when whatever I tried didn't work (not to mention putting a litre of Absolut Vodka in the tank to no avail).
I'll test my water this weekend and report back.
Hi nigeljk
What's the expiry dates on your bottles?
Dave
are people doing this to create a "bacterial soup" to feed the corals, or to see if the product works ?
Gram staining will work fine (i used to run microbiology at work) saline is used routinely in gram staining and even if it did cause it not to work that is simple enough to deal with.. a quick buffer exchange is all that is needed...
the most likely cause of the lack of observed results is due to the fact that you need access the high quality microscopes fitted with oli immersion lenses in order to see bacteria.
i work with pete (twistedpro) if i can get him to bring some ultra bio in i will stain it up and i will also put some into proper nutrient broth/agar cultures . i can also do some dilution experiments to tell you the no of CFU (colony forming units, cells) per ml.
If people are really interested and want to send me different batches i can test them all and do a batch on batch comparison
Sounds good, I know nothing about microbiology but was just reporting what I read on the reefcentral discussion where someone had an unsuccessfull atempt at gram staining.
I dont use Ultralith but an unoppened bottle of the zeovit bacteria, Be interesting to do a comparison between the 2 products.
are people doing this to create a "bacterial soup" to feed the corals, or to see if the product works ?
I used the Prodibio with 3 months solid on my tank with no real effect. I have moved over FM products and still haven't seen a drop in nitrates.
Reading the experiences of other people, I think that the product works. But I am not seeing an effect in my tank. So I am looking for reasons in my case. I cannot hold the vial up in the air and say "there's bacteria in there" or "there's carbon in there" etc.
I must admit my ProdiBio trial has thrown doubt in my mind on claims.
There's too much "every tank is different" and the instructions for use are a bit vague IMO.
Scoobs/Reefbloke experiments gave a pointer on how to see if there was something in these "magic waters" other than ethonel etc. For me it is to give me faith in products. However this thread for me has highlighted other issues in using the product.
Dave
I have carried on with my experiment with the UltraBio and UltraBak. As mentioned in my previous post, it took 48 hours the first time to get any cloudy water in the beaker (UltraBio exp.date 12/07). At this stage the water in the beaker had zero nitrate readings (going in approx 70). I poured the water in my sump leaving about half an inch in the beaker and topped it with more tank water. Water in the beaker was at 60ppm for nitrates. I reduced the amount of Ultrabio from 15 drops to 8 and this time the beaker was cloudy (thicker than last time) in 24 hours and with zero nitrate. I have not seen the water turn pink or smell.
Reef bloke
23-06-07, 03:31
I think we have to step back and look at the big picture here peeps.Although Scoobs results were superb the way we both went about it was hardly scientific.There are many flaws in the method and id hate to be putting doubt in hobbyists minds over what might or might not be growing in a bowl of water.What is needed is cold hard facts,facts that only scientific analysis under laboratory conditions can give.
Until we receive results back from the manufacturer and/or an independent analysis take the bowl culturing method with a pinch of salt.
All i do know is this,Ultra bio and Bak can work,Scott's tank is testament to this.Would we have seen the same results without trying to grow the bacteria on? I suspect we would albeit at a slower rate,but again we thats hypothetical,the results may well have been the same.
what do you mean not scientific, i became very ill, surely that's science enough :D
you are right tho, in reality, for all we know, it really might have been down to te kitty turds!
Ok,as i said previously with regards to my intial dosage being 2 drops per 100ltrs(as stated on bottle) i reduced this to 1 drop per 100ltrs, my results were after a 24hr period cloudy water with a pink tint,so it appears to still have the same appearance to what i was getting with double the dose,i am on day ten now but have yet to see a drop in no3(but this may have happened,havent tested for the last three days) corals are looking their best ever,there is a slight difference to colours.
I havent experienced any odours from the tank or the container,also havent really noticed changes in the appearance of the piece of LR in the container allthough it does feel slimey.
Jim
Tested No3 today and not a difference,still sits at 50mg,i think all that is happening is the corals are having a feast:confused: .
Jim
I think we have to step back and look at the big picture here peeps.Although Scoobs results were superb the way we both went about it was hardly scientific.There are many flaws in the method and id hate to be putting doubt in hobbyists minds over what might or might not be growing in a bowl of water.What is needed is cold hard facts,facts that only scientific analysis under laboratory conditions can give.
Until we receive results back from the manufacturer and/or an independent analysis take the bowl culturing method with a pinch of salt.
I have offered... if people send me samples i can do things with them
I should have some prodi tomorrow, going to try the same with that in the sump using the bak & LR..... The other thing I wondered is if its not the Bio at fault but the bak??
If nothing else works I may well take you up on that offer Martin just for sh!ts & giggles & see what you find or don't as the case maybe?
Cheers, Shelton.
no problem... you know where i am...
Ok allthough there is talk regarding scientific analysis issues i feel i have to report a little change i am seeing now,To make the point understood i have to explain a couple of things first,
Yesterday i removed quite an amount of LR from the sump which i had in the sump feed compartment and also on the DSB,i also had rubble in the return section,the rubble in the return section has been left to act as a final polisher so to speak,i did a 25% water change also.
Following the way of dosing bio using the growing on method,i have noticed something strange today,(normally it would take in average 18 to 24hrs to reach the cloudy water stage) today the container was lined with a new piece of rock,filled with water from the sump,5 drops of bio plus capful of bak,within two to three hours the water is cloudier than ever,now all these things are rushing through my head, removing some LR ,a water change, etc surely this can't be why,now the water change part i can opt out because when i first started using bio/bak i had done a water change the day before,(still experienced the bloom but not as dense)also by removing the LR within the sump has provided better flow (but no flow in the container)so we can rule that out as well,so what would explain the dense bloom,nothing has changed apart from my dosing method, because the dose has been reduced from 9 drops of bio to 5?) following advice regarding lable mixups.
I am on day Twelve of dosing bio/bak for what its worth,allthough the last four days the container has been dosed with 5 drops of bio and capfull of bak.
Just thought i would post this up,no point in me stopping dosing until we get some scientific analysis done,otherwise my bio might go out of date:laugh: .
Jim
Just been looking through this thread and noticed Zahira experienced a faster bloom by reducing the amount of bio..hmm something to think about, Reefbloke your words are ringing out..
Until we receive results back from the manufacturer and/or an independent analysis take the bowl culturing method with a pinch of salt.
.
I wish they would Hurry Up..:laugh:
On another note for the price of this stuff you would think attention to instructions and labels would be priority,,hell ive shampoo bottles that cost a couple of quid with fancy lables and CLEAR instructions on what to do with it:dance:
Jim
jim... so far i have got 2 samples from twistedpro, with 2 different dates on, one on the way from corsetts...... and thats it.
I have offered my time and experience it is up to ypou lot to provide me with the materials to carry out the analysis
What makes of product have you been supplied with?
they are all different batches of ultrabio (as that is what the problem was with)
jim... so far i have got 2 samples from twistedpro, with 2 different dates on, one on the way from corsetts...... and thats it.
I have offered my time and experience it is up to ypou lot to provide me with the materials to carry out the analysis
Yeah,i did see your post and i appreciate you taking the time to do the analysis,i didn't think about forwarding a sample because unlike others i am seeing results even if it's not altering my No3,i see differencies in corals that never looked like they were living,i also had a patch of black hairy cyano which has reduced greatly(i have pics before i started and a daily log of the experiences and will do a post at a later date) if i had a container to send you a sample i would just for the hell of it as like yourself it will be very interesting to see the outcome,if i come across something i can use i will most deffo pm you.
Jim
they are all different batches of ultrabio (as that is what the problem was with)
Would it be worth sending you a small tube of the water created from mixing the ultrabio and the ultrabak (using a live rock and tank water) over 24 hours just to see if there is any difference in concentration, etc of the bacteria as compared to the ultrabio itself?
By the way, the live rock has now started to smell after using it every day for nearly a week with ultrabio and ultrabak (replacing the water with tank water every day).
not at te moment... i am going to do some very simple counting excersised to establish the cfu per ml and some gram staining...
i also have samples coming fron alan m and dave p ...
anyone else wanna contribute..plese pm me...
ickypimp, for the benefit of those of us who don't regularly work with microbes can you please explain what "cfu per ml" and "gram staining" is? What process do you use? what are the chances of contaimation? and what can these test tell us?
Twistedpro
27-06-07, 16:50
cfu = colony forming unit
Gram stain is a technique which stains the bacterial cell wall, Gram positive have lare peptidoglycan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptidoglycan) filled cell walls around 90% which stain purple. Gram negative bacteria have around 10% peptidoglycan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptidoglycan) in their cell walls and stain pink
i have given my samples to icky to carry out the same tests as myself, he may also get them done sooner as i am not in the lab much at the moment
cfu is colony forming units per mililitre... how many bacteria you have in solution...
gram staining is a microscopic staining method which exploits the structure of the cell wall of bacterial cells the process will stain the organisms purple or red.. based upon the biochemistry of the cell wall, i am aware of the gram type (G+ve and G-ve) of some of the strains ultral contains and the shape of the cells... it will confirm the presence of microbial cells (or not) in the ultra bio)
the counting technique is basically done with a serial dilution.
I will take a small voume of the sample and put it onto sterile growth media, then do a 1/10 dilution and plate that out, theen a 1/100 and a 1/1000 etc
the no of colonies in the plates should be exponential, at some point there will be a run of plates where i will get say 5 and 50 colonies back, using the dilution and the volume put on the plate it is simple to extrapolate the CFU per ml..
if all is well in the land of ultra bio the cfu per ml would be similar (within reason ) bottle to bottle, if , however there is a problem with a particular batch then the cfu count will be low/non existant...
Dependant on the outcome of this work i may (time and motivation permitting undertake to isolate monocultures of the 10 or so bacterial strains in the pot, then use selective biochemical testing to confirm the identities of the strains and compare these batch to batch.
As for the chance for contamination... well i will not sat there is no chance, however i will say i am a researcher working in a grade 5 research institute(thats bloody good BTW) , i have over 10 years worth of experience in labs and use microbial techniques on a daily basis, i have access to pretty much the best facilities i could need to do this work...
to be honest mate the biggest chance of contaamination of the samples comes from you guys..
Sorry Ickypimp, didn't manage to send my bottles out last week. Will do early next week.
Dave
Anakinlucas
01-07-07, 20:56
Strikes me we are all doing what the quality control dept at FM should be sorting out, questions about bacs having Mins labels on the back and bacs on the front, 2 drops 1 drop ect on the Bio should be answerd by FM and they should sort this. I along with most of others have believed what we've been told and lets face it we are spending some serious money and we should be getting some answers. Its time someone in authority at FM took control of this and got it sorted, and soothed our fears. If it does what they say on the tin then give us some proof, if it don't then give us the truth and our money back.
:mad:
Anakin
Anakinlucas
01-07-07, 21:00
Answers from FM seem to be very slow and reps seem very conspicious by there absence ..........
Anakin
Thing about this thread, the system is not being used as recommended on the FM website.
As far as I can make out only one person has not had their 'soup' turn cloudy, pink or white.
People using it as recommended are reporting that it works well, as have the people using the scoob method.
We have sent a couple of bio bottles back to Claude, he is also testing what he has in stock.
When we get results, from German and the guys over here, we will be able to say something constructive, untill then? We can only say what people have experienced and as above, the large majority are getting good results with either method.
Anakinlucas
01-07-07, 23:22
I think I,m getting some results but what about the labeling of the products, what's in the miss labelled bacs bottles, is it bacs or mins???
We just need someone to restore some confidence!!!!
Anakin
Hi Anakin
Not really sure how much soothing of brows is needed here as Ian has said in essence what people are doing in trying to culture a big old jug of bacteria is not really what the product is for. If Sccobs batch culture concept helps people all well and good but not sure what the effects of adding large amounts of bacteria may be.
As to the Fauna product Martin aka ickypimp is beavering away with his lab rats having a go at culturing the product under lab conditions to see if there is a duff batch same with FM.
It seems that 99% of people are getting a response when trying the Scoob method fro all its pro's and cons so I see little at this point to get heavily involved at this point.
People on here always like to cry no support well its all just chugging along if we get a conclusion that shows a problem then I have clearly stated we will ask FM to replace the bottles. At the moment I feel the Scoob method is hardly the gold standard for testing for bacterial activity although the majority are getting cultures to grow, Ickypimp has a wealth of culturing experience and expertise to do the job too lab standards. Although I believe with pro d bio and Korralin Zucht in the US lab methods proved troublesome.
Anyway await Martins results with interest then as a company we can compare with what Germany has and take some positive steps.
More later I expect :-)
Jez
PS as for the labels issue. I believe this has been covered (Claude was supporting a local initiative to help handicapped people get work experience a few products slipped through the net) and as we only had about 12 bottles in the UK with the problem its not quite the dramatic event mentioned and we do have labels on route to replace with.
ok boys and girls... i did a vwey quick experiment last night... i simply dropped a small volume (10 ul) of the 3 ultrabio samples into 5 ml of sterile nutrient broth... i grew them in overnight in a shaking incubator at 37 degrees..
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/Ickypimp/PIC000146.jpg
left to right
control -ve growth
twistedpro 09-07 fresh opened +ve growth
twistedpro 12-07 old +ve growth
corsetts 12-07 old +ve growth
this is not by any means conclusive... all it means is the samples i got contain viable bacteria, i will do more tests as and when i get the chance
Twistedpro
03-07-07, 12:24
All have tested positive using a broad range nutrient broth, pritty much allows any bacteria to grow. However it does not show which bacteria are present as its not selective. The test with sea water is very rough and ready and not overly scientific as a whole host of other factors effect the results
jez provided a new bottle of Bio for me, visually this is different it contains clumps of bacteria in it. Since switching nitrates have dropped again and bacterial film is back. Many things may have affected this though. With the nitrates increasing may have provided more food allowing the bacteria to proliferate more thus increasing the bacterial film.
With regards to dumping in loads of bacteria using the scoob method, well in theory this number will be no different to the amount in the tank if you dosed straight into the tank. The reason it is cloudy is you are seeing it in a smaller volume of water
In general its a great product and i feel that it will have a positive effect when used on any tank following the guidelines provided. The dosages have changed however this is down to a better knowledge due to more user feedback and is the evolution of the product, so we get a better end result.
C. Schuhmacher
04-07-07, 07:10
"Answers from FM seem to be very slow and reps seem very conspicious by there absence ..........
Anakin"
Hi Anakin
Don´t worry iám here but during Summertime we make our taxes , new products
and sometimes a few days holiday
in june and Juli may some questions can during one or two days longer
but i did not get a mail
its for me not s easy to see worlwide wide all postings about our products
So sometimes it is better to send a mail
Iám sure that Ultra Bio is correct and i will check what happens with this bottles
Bacterias are very difficult to storage and to produce the mix we use is also not easy
We don´t sale pond bacterias :-) we let them produce special for us
in a german laboratory under perfect conditions
When i change a dosing i do that cause the Feedback of the users show that the dosing is the better way
The new bacterias work better as i think first so we make a new mix and change the dosing to lower dosings
I think this will be also very good for our costumers
Greets Claude
"Answers from FM seem to be very slow and reps seem very conspicious by there absence ..........
Anakin"
Hi Anakin
Don´t worry iám here but during Summertime we make our taxes , new products
and sometimes a few days holiday
in june and Juli may some questions can during one or two days longer
but i did not get a mail
its for me not s easy to see worlwide wide all postings about our products
So sometimes it is better to send a mail
Iám sure that Ultra Bio is correct and i will check what happens with this bottles
Bacterias are very difficult to storage and to produce the mix we use is also not easy
We don´t sale pond bacterias :-) we let them produce special for us
in a german laboratory under perfect conditions
When i change a dosing i do that cause the Feedback of the users show that the dosing is the better way
The new bacterias work better as i think first so we make a new mix and change the dosing to lower dosings
I think this will be also very good for our costumers
Greets Claude
Claude
Have you thought about creating a forum or a specific area in a third party forum for the support of your products that is frequented regularly on a daily basis by a FM representative? They will be responsible for dealing with any concerns/questions customer's may have.
That way at least people will know where to post any questions they have about the product.
Slowness or lack of customer support will only atagonise customers and lead them to choose other products. Response should be measured in hours not weeks.
I am on the verge moving over the Zeovit. This is not because I believe there is any wrong with FM product, but because of in my opinion lack of a place for me to post any questions I might have.
Dave
Thanks for doing the testing Martin, much appreciated :worship:
I can assume then that my batch is viable but for whatever reason the FM system doesn't work in my tank.
Hi
Chris it may be just a fluke thing that you have not been able to cultivate. From what Claude has said it will be pretty much hit and miss perhaps another go but I am still not convinced that kncoking the nitrates out in a couple of weeks is the way to go.
Are your nitrates high at present
Jez
Hi Jez, Yes sitting at around 50ppm at the moment.
i also am seeing no changes in No3 50mg,corals have made a difference especially softy,im still dosing bio and ocasionally some bak but following fm's recomendations ie:no more soup bowls,im now taking another route in a few weeks time,it's faq,what works for some don't work for others,maybe some luck will come my way one day:laugh:
Jim
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