View Full Version : Using Garlic
There has been an interesting debate started between wombat and myself. This surrounds the potentially lethal use of garlic additives into Marine food as well as foodstuffs (frozen, flake, etc) which are garlic enhanced.
It is confirmed by Wombat that the use of garlic will cause long term liver damage to our reef livestock.
How many of you use garlic products and did not realise this? :confused:
edited by Dave_P
stan.the.man
01-01-08, 10:47
I am sure that most reefers that use this forum are aware of the different views on garlic - they have been aired on here many times, including from several people who are in a better position to judge than I am - and who's opinions I have come to respect.
It is our choice whether we use it or not. Personally, I don't.
Stan
I am not in the position to know whether garlic would or wouldn't harm fish, I can only go on the experiences/comments of others. I have some in my cupboard sold to me by my LFS as a way to entice difficult fish to feed. I used a couple of times and it's been in my cupboard ever since.
However after reading Wombat's opinion regarding the damage it can cause. IMO he is in a better position than anybody else on the board to know the effect on fish and quite honestly following his comments I will never use it again. His advice is good enough for me.
I suppose Vivs comments are directed to us, not doing harm to any of the tankmates.It all smacks of the old animal testing debate:eek: ,do or don't we:confused: .We all have our opinions on it,don't we:) .At the end of the day,surely,it is upto the individual as to what medications they use.IF IN ANY DOUBT---DON'T USE IT.Hopefully we will all have healthy fish this coming new year.:thumbsup: :thanks:
steve@ cambridge coral tech
01-01-08, 13:47
i've fed my fish garlic fairly regular since i started keeping marines, my yellow tang loves it!, have had him seven years, other than being removed for battering my black tang, he now resides in the shop still being fed garlic brine shrimp by tmc and still appears fine?, i've used crushed cloves and the tmc soaked brine. so far no losses and no jaundice fish.
Is there any published papers on liver damage in fish caused by garlic additives?
Has wombat carried out this piece of research himself?
J
Hi yes,
This is what wombat posted:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=230555&page=2
Very interesting don't you think?
Just to clarify it is the lipids in the garlic that do the damage because marine fish can't digest them properly and they cause cardiac & liver lesions. However these lipids are found in lettuce and spinach (any any other terrestrial plant matter you choose to feed marine fish) which were commonly fed to tangs as a dietary supplement by LFS who should have known better.
Some of the key work in this field was carried out by Sargent bell and Mcvicar two fish nutritionists and a fish pathologist based in Scotland. If you search for my user name and mcvicar you will find threads with all the literature laid out in it. I've pretty much been saying this since I joined UR in 2003. It's not a new thing at all.
its an fine topic for discussion imo, but the thread needs a good clean first.
wombat, what are youre thought on it acting as feeding stimulant and as such is it worth feeding in small doses when trying to recover stressed or sick fish.
how do you feel about the use on ginger in the same way as well.
cleaned by me, please keep on track
Dave
wombat, what are youre thought on it acting as feeding stimulant and as such is it worth feeding in small doses when trying to recover stressed or sick fish.
how do you feel about the use on ginger in the same way as well.
Well, personally (and I've tried it myself) I don't think garlic or ginger triggers an improved feeding response either in speed of eating or amount eaten. Certainly when compared to squid oil which is a well known appetite stimulator for fish and is often used to trigger feeding responses in fish.
My experimental design was
tank 1 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml garlic extract
tank 2 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml ginger extract
tank 3 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml squid oil
tank 4 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml RO water
all tanks Fed 3 times per day all fish were full siblings all tank were run simultaneously
Growth was assessed as the increase in weight for the populations over 4 weeks compared to the control tank (tank 4)
Tank 1 -2%
Tank 2 -3%
Tank 3 +18%
Tank 4 control fish 0%
so in this quick and dirty trial there was no benefit from the garlic or ginger in terms of growth. Indeed there was a small decline in weight in these groups which is probably due to the fish finding the feed unpalatable due to the garlic and ginger in the feed, at least initially. the squid oil grew best, but that may not be due to increased appetite but simply because the squid oil added more calories to the diet than the garlic or ginger.
So that is all the data I have on garlic and ginger as appetite enhancers in this trial they were no different from controls (if fact slightly worst) therefor they did not act as appetite enhancers.
On post mortem fish in group 1 had 62% liver damage and fish in group 2 had 68% liver damage. Groups 3-4 had normal livers
Is there a list of references in those posts?
or could you send me the list aswell
J
Well, personally (and I've tried it myself) I don't think garlic or ginger triggers an improved feeding response either in speed of eating or amount eaten. Certainly when compared to squid oil which is a well known appetite stimulator for fish and is often used to trigger feeding responses in fish.
My experimental design was
tank 1 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml garlic extract
tank 2 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml ginger extract
tank 3 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml squid oil
tank 4 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml RO water
all tanks Fed 3 times per day all fish were full siblings all tank were run simultaneously
Growth was assessed as the increase in weight for the populations over 4 weeks compared to the control tank (tank 4)
Tank 1 -2%
Tank 2 -3%
Tank 3 +18%
Tank 4 control fish 0%
so in this quick and dirty trial there was no benefit from the garlic or ginger in terms of growth. Indeed there was a small decline in weight in these groups which is probably due to the fish finding the feed unpalatable due to the garlic and feed at least initially. the squid oil grew best, but that may not be due to increased appetite but simply because the squid oil added more calories to the diet than the garlic or ginger.
So that is all the data I have on garlic and ginger as appetite enhancers in this trial they were no different from controls (if fact slightly worst) therefor they did not act as appetite enhancers.
On post mortem fish in group 1 had 62% liver damage and fish in group 2 had 68% liver damage. Groups 3-4 had normal livers
so ginger is more harmful in your opinion.
intreasting tests, were they kept in a stack system with the same water quality or in single tanks ? :thumbsup:
Those tests do show a significant increase with squid oil over garlic and ginger - though I know that its a rough test which would need more replicates to show how statistically significant the difference is etc but it points in the direction of supporting the hypothesis 'that garlic/ginger has no effect on weight gain/or feeding response in clown fish' or is that the null hypothesis.....argh stats!
The debate is very interesting as garlic is often hyped as a 'wormer' in humans aswell I remember reading that in health books (whacko ones).
Garlic and other allium plants (onions, leeks etc) were reported to be important pre biotics for human or mammal digestion (at least the herbivorous mammals) - obviously we are evolved to some extent to eat such foods (if you leave aside the influence of agriculture)
Probably gonna have to stop drinking tea with 'cows milk' for the same reason slurp! :lol:
J
so ginger is more harmful in your opinion.
interesting tests, were they kept in a stack system with the same water quality or in single tanks ? :thumbsup:
No the statistics showed no significant difference, not worst, effectively the same. the water was recirculated through a TMC system 5000.
No the statistics showed no significant difference, not worst, effectively the same. the water was recirculated through a TMC system 5000.
if it was the same water wouldnt the squid oil also possibly trigger a response in the other fish, i have noticed when i feed stock in my systems the clean up crew section goes mad even when there is no food on there section, the "smell" must pass through the water in no time at all.
It is a possibility, but also true that garlic and ginger would/could contaminate the other tanks and trigger a feeding reponse too, but the only positive effect was in the squid oil tank the other two tanks being not significantly different from controls.
Don't forget the water went through a powerful ozone system (630mv in the reaction tower) and 2.3kw UV before entering a carbon filter (to remove any residual ozone) and finally the bio filters after it exited the trial tanks and before it was recirculated. So the squid oil and garlic/ginger would have been pretty seriously oxidised during this process and very likely removed by the carbon and biological filtration.
So the growth benefit comes from fish eating the diet not a soluble factor in the water. Which as I said could be simply due to the additional calories. However, the slightly negative growth and liver lesions in vegetable fed groups strongly suggests that any benefit from garlic and ginger is outweighed by the liver damage and as there was no benefit in growth then it suggests that there is a disadvantage in using it.
not saying to use it at all, just intreasting topic thats all, funny you mention the ozone as i use it as well and the water pases through 2 skimmers before returning to the tanks and both are far over rated to system and i use ozone in the 2nd.
but its literally with in seconds of water hiting the water that they all respond to any form of meat foods, not nori though :)
shame about the start of the thread imo from both sides :(
doh been cleaned now :)
Didn't see it until after it was cleaned
Hi Wombat
Well that is very interesting results you have produced.
Can you suggest for us reefers where we can get squid oil from?
Many thanks.
Do you have a list of the references at all wombat?
It would be good to have a read of the research which looked at the liver lesions.
Regards
j
Well the stuff I used here was provided by the company I did the pilot study for.
I would assume that is is only available in industrial amounts of 25 gallon drums or similar.
just to reiterate I'm not saying that squid oil is beneficial to the fish's health or the new cure for white spot or finicky feeders, just that clown fish fed on it were heavier at the end of the trial than those that weren't. I'm sure if you fed a dog a pound of lard + its normal diet every day it too would be heavier than one fed just its normal diet after a month too.
I would have thought that you would get similar results and other nutritional benefits if you used the New Era liposomes sprays, Selco or other enrichment products as all are formulated with marine lipids, vitamins, pigments etc and the idea is they do just that, enhance the nutritional profile of frozen and dried foods. And it would probably save you the expense and hassle of having a big drum of very smelly squid oil in your fridge.
Do you have a list of the references at all wombat?
It would be good to have a read of the research which looked at the liver lesions.
Regards
j
Should be with you now, I missed your first request
Thanks for the references
Basically non marine additives used in feed in fish farms to bulk out the food has detrimental effects on the fishes liver hence the research - which are on salmon and halibut - two farmed species
Yet to read through the references completely
Are there feeds in the US which used marine worms like ragworms which are used in the UK for marine fish pellets?
J
Thanks for the references
Basically non marine additives used in feed in fish farms to bulk out the food has detrimental effects on the fishes liver hence the research - which are on salmon and halibut - two farmed species
Yet to read through the references completely
Are there feeds in the US which used marine worms like ragworms which are used in the UK for marine fish pellets?
J
Well I would say yes, these are carnivorous marine fish and their lipid requirements, in general, are similar to most carnivorous fish species, effectively fish predators require marine oils in their diet. It’s the usual issue the aquacultured species are on the whole cheap and easily available and have the majority of molecular and immunological tools available for the analysis. But of course the commercial aspect is the driving force and if expensive and unsustainable fish oils and fish meals can be replaced by terrestrial protein and lipid sources then there is a commercial benefit and this is why these species tend to be used.
Yes there are quite a few USA projects using aquacultured ragworm meals as well as bivalve meals under evaluation.
Steven Pro
16-01-08, 14:21
Well, personally (and I've tried it myself) I don't think garlic or ginger triggers an improved feeding response either in speed of eating or amount eaten. Certainly when compared to squid oil which is a well known appetite stimulator for fish and is often used to trigger feeding responses in fish.
My experimental design was
tank 1 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml garlic extract
tank 2 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml ginger extract
tank 3 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml squid oil
tank 4 50 tank bred clowns @ fed 2g Of a commercial UK made flake food + 0.5 ml RO water
all tanks Fed 3 times per day all fish were full siblings all tank were run simultaneously
Growth was assessed as the increase in weight for the populations over 4 weeks compared to the control tank (tank 4)
Tank 1 -2%
Tank 2 -3%
Tank 3 +18%
Tank 4 control fish 0%
so in this quick and dirty trial there was no benefit from the garlic or ginger in terms of growth. Indeed there was a small decline in weight in these groups which is probably due to the fish finding the feed unpalatable due to the garlic and ginger in the feed, at least initially. the squid oil grew best, but that may not be due to increased appetite but simply because the squid oil added more calories to the diet than the garlic or ginger.
So that is all the data I have on garlic and ginger as appetite enhancers in this trial they were no different from controls (if fact slightly worst) therefor they did not act as appetite enhancers.
On post mortem fish in group 1 had 62% liver damage and fish in group 2 had 68% liver damage. Groups 3-4 had normal livers
I guess there is little chance they will permit you to publish these results? If so, that is a shame. I think garlic is largely useless except perhaps as a dewormer. Have you read Fairfield, Terry. 1996. "Garlic & Your Aquarium: A Preliminary report on Allium sativum and fishkeeping." Aquarium Fish Magazine, January 1996, pages 79-83.? It is for freshwater fish and not conclusive, but did show some promise.
Garlic is just so deceptively easy in comparison to removing fish and using a proven treatment in quarantine that the hobby could use all the evidence it can to convince people to go the hard route.
Certainly interesting to see these results Ian (Wombat.) Went to my LFS today and noticed they are selling flake by a major brand with added garlic!
Nope I asked again and they said "No that's never going to happen" :( . I haven't seen that article I don't know where to get it either unfortunately not in the Uni library (no chance of a PDF?). I don't know if you are aware of the veterinary work in dogs and cats, but it causes a Haemolytic anemia if fed to cats and dogs regularly yet you don't have to go far to see the same health claims made for it in cats and dogs as for humans
Viv my advice would be to buy a brand without garlic
yeah interesting stuff, but there will always b products or ingredients that will be downright wrong, even tho its pushed on us....i figure that do what u think works 4 ur fish, not what LFS says, every tunk works and runs differently....
Interesting :thumbsup:
Where do you get the Squid oil from? What brand?
I have to try this squid oil method :dance:
Thanks!
Interesting :thumbsup:
Where do you get the Squid oil from? What brand?
I have to try this squid oil method :dance:
Thanks!
I think you're missing the point - the squid oil was one of three additives used to provide alternatives to the standard diet and to test a fish's propensity to eat food that has been treated with a marine derived additive over a terrestrial one, not a recommended food additive. Get a good liposome spray instead such as that made by New Era
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