View Full Version : Reef bones - Connected to Algae?
As I've read a few posts about people with reef bones getting blooms of hair algae I decided to post this thread to see if there is a connection, or if there are ways of preventing it.
Perhaps there is a good method of reducing risk, for example washing the rocks first, dosing with UltraBac etc etc.
I know as well theres no way of determining if the bloom is down to the reef bones, but hey who knows there may be some patterns.
As per usual please comment whats happened to you, and what if anything you did to prepare the bones.
Thanks
Display full of reef bones, light hose down before being used. Used prodibio ULNS from the start along with ultaphos and carbon. never saw any sort of spike at all - had cyno/hair algae for about 2 weeks, now almost all gone (couple of months in)
BIG clean up crew used though.
If i was doing another tank i'd use german bones again, no question.
stan.the.man
10-01-08, 20:42
Cannot really vote, because mine have only been in my tank for about three weeks. I used about half reef bones and half mature live rock from a previous setup.
I kept mine in a spare tank with salt water and a skimmer for two weeks until no signs of nitrite or amonia. After a week, I added a few bits of mature live rock and a bit of grunge and changed the water.
At moment, no signs of hair algae, but in the past few days, there has been a light green hue to the new rocks. How long was it before your tank started to show signs of hair algae?
Stan
Edit: Used FM UltraLith, Bak & Bio from Day 1 of tank, but not while "curing". (Not used ULNS before)
i suppose it was at about 3-4 weeks, never got that bad though...certainly not as bad as some i see on here who use normal rock...so i wouldn't link it to my bones.
Mines not even in the tank yet as I've still not built it. Lol. Nearly there though. Hehe.
Almost all RB's - cured reasonably well with PO4 reactor and Prodibio potions - did have cyano for a few weeks, but has now cleared up
mattsilvester
10-01-08, 21:11
Since I'm one of the "suspects" that are highly suspicious of reef bones causing or at least contributing to my current hair algae problem. Here's a pic - note the difference between the "real" LR on the right and the "german" bones on the left:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w218/mattsilvester/SandPics007.jpg
I've got zero algae, look at the link in my signature to my SPS tank. The majority of rock in the tank is reef bones.
We must remember what reef bones is and where it came from. Essentially it is dead live rock, packed with well dried animals, of various sizes. Once the rock becomes wet, the dead organic matter starts to free up and release it's pay load.
Fastidious preparation is imho absolutely essential if you want to be certain of avoiding problems further down the line.
I prepared my rock by soaking it well in a header tank with RO water over the course of a week or so, with a few sump pumps and a tunze stream ensuring water was being forced into and around the rock, the flow was massive. After a week, the water was putrid, so I repeated this flushing with RO water a few times, the high flow is essential imo, more flow the better. This is the opportunity to flush out and extract as much of the 'pay load' as possible; an opportunity that should not be wasted or rushed. RO water is very good at doing this job as being raw H2O it is hungry and will act like a sponge desperate to pick up TDS.
The next step was making up fresh salted water and starting the curing process, again, after a week or two, I performed a 100% water change (obviously using salted water at this stage). Heavy skimming was also employed. Once the skimmer had stopped going mad and ammonia had reduced, I added some mature live rock to seed the reef bones with various life forms and bacteria.
I wonder, how many people (honestly) are blaming the reef bones for their algae problems, when it is not the rock at fault, more the poor preparation before it was introduced into the display?
Reef bones is a tried, tested and proven product. I would not hesitate in using it again on future projects, despite the laborious preparation, I feel the aquascaping opportunities it offers out-weighs the grief at the start. The shapes of the rock are so natural and superb. If well prepared, it will perform as good as the best live rock and, given time, that is exactly what it will turn into.
what he said!
also the algae that i had was on the sand, real rock, foam and bones in equal amount....so i dont regard the rocks as being at fault (as it only lasted a short time i dont regard it as a fault at all really)
No issues here but I wonder if those with problems have been mis-sold Tuffa rock instead of reef bones? Don't they look very similar?
Campbell
note the difference between the "real" LR on the right and the "german" bones on the left:
could it be that the "real" LR has more coralline, so less surface area for the HA to grow, but the reef bones don't have the coralline so look worse
I've got zero algae, look at the link in my signature to my SPS tank. The majority of rock in the tank is reef bones.
We must remember what reef bones is and where it came from. Essentially it is dead live rock, packed with well dried animals, of various sizes. Once the rock becomes wet, the dead organic matter starts to free up and release it's pay load.
Fastidious preparation is imho absolutely essential if you want to be certain of avoiding problems further down the line.
I wonder, how many people (honestly) are blaming the reef bones for their algae problems, when it is not the rock at fault, more the poor preparation before it was introduced into the display?
as per Tony, It's all in the prep.:)
I also has zero algae after adding a huge amount, my only prep was a thorough jetwash and ample use of phos remover during the curing phase.
Some pics of it's progress in my signature link.
It's a fraction of the cost of liverock, doesn't harbour any problemsome critters, and provides for some great scaping opportunities.
As per reefclown, it really all is in the prep. I can't really vote right now either, but I've just put in about 50kg worth of bones into my 5ft last Sunday, seeded with small sizes of old mature live rock no bigger around 3-4 sq. inches. The old mature rock went straight into the sump (apart from one piece - no room!) with a closed loop on that compartment.
Before the bones went in, they were jet washed twice over, I made sure the water was sprayed into every hole to pressure out anything that could potentially decompose in the system. The bones were then left to dry over a week. I then soaked them in RO water for around 48 hours, with flow.
The bones were then aquascaped outside the tank and before they went into the display tank, they were lightly rinsed once again with RO water.
I changed over the Phos media in the fluidiser a couple hours before the bones went in. The skimmer was adjusted to full with daily dosing of Bak and Bio, trying to increase carbon sources temporarily to kick off the bacteria. No real increase in Nitrates apart from a minor blip which lasted just a few hours, but I put that down to moving out the existing mature rock as being the cause. Current Phos reading so far 0ppm, on a salifert test kit.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2007Q2/DSC00543 (Medium).JPG
Great stuff everyone. Maybe this poll can help convince people to 1. prepare well, and that 2. algae problems may be down to something else and not just the reef bones used. I feel better about using mine now anyway. Good to see what you can do with them as well.
mattsilvester
11-01-08, 09:13
M1ST - I would have no problem or hesitation in using that type of reef bones - the "solid" looknig type. However the "dead" live rock looking pieces, which really have a great open & pourous structure are a different matter, in my view.
Dante - I wouldn't advise anyone to use OR 'not' to use this product. Yes, with careful preperation, they should be perfectly safe to use. In my situation, I do not 100% attribute the algae problems to the reef bones - I cannot say for certain that they contribute at all, but I definitely cannot rule them out. As far as preparation - there is preparation and the is preparation. I spent a couple of hours going over each peice with a tooth brush and tooth pick, and got out anything that could be seen that looked suspect..... to me that is an acceptable level of "preparation". If on the other hand you are going to "cure" it for a couple of months in a seperate tank, running (relatively) large amounts of carbon and phosphate remover to prevent it from absorbing its own waste.... well at that rate, for what one will save, I would almost prefer to spend my money of "real" LR.
HOWEVER - as has been rightly pointed out, there are plenty of tanks that have been set up and maintained 'by the book' using real LR etc. and they have algae problems.......
Its just a judgement call really, and anyone reading this post should be aware that if they are going to use the reef bones that look like chunks of dead LR they they do run a risk of imoprting large amounts of "stored" phosphate and other nasties if they are using large amounts of this stuff. People ned to weight the cost savings of LR 'vs' Reef bones and make a call as to whether that cost saving is worth the risk, compared with buying decent LR from a reputable source (and factor in the possible cost of "curing" it.... water changes, phospahate remover, and so on).
HTH
Matt
@matsilvester - Well said. To prevent or at least cut this problem down, I inted to leave it to cycle a long time in my main tank with plenty of phosphate remover, skimming, carbon and manual extraction of any algae that shows.
Just good to let people see possible risks for themselves and weigh against cost.
Dave Blackpool
11-01-08, 13:07
I'm plagued with algae at the moment but the tank is very young. The reefbones were cured for about 2 months so I'm sure it's just the natural cycle.
Ive just recently added dead living rock to my tank ok not reef bones but everything was dead all the same, and suffice to say i have hair algae everywhere.
I have 0 phos and 0 po3, The reason for this i think is i didnt set the phos reactor up quick enough it was a few days late before i added it, that and my protien skimmer that i ordered turned out to be a fresh water skimmer so had to wait for 3 weeks until i could add the right one.
It looks bloody awfull at the moment but it will go away it will it will it will
i have hair algae everywhere.
Are you not a gardener? Get it sorted man, what's the matter with you? :p
If only Reefkeeping was as simple as gardening lol, True i get payed to sort out other peoples algae problems with ponds etc .. But this requires a little more substance and patience .. Apart from the missus saying and i quote ( i thought you know what your doing) Ie kelp garden.
I have jason on my case ta boot .. i know whats worse, Never ask him a basic question like ''how do i get rid of it'' ... If you ever get the notion that 30 years of keeping fish means anything it can get swept away in 30 seconds lol .. Dont you just love this hobby :laugh:
if when setting up a new reef , would/does the old dead payload of reef bones not help feed and kick start the new bacteria that we need?
i know you need to seed it first but wont they help rather than hinder in the growth and conlonisation of bacteria.
:confused:
if when setting up a new reef , would/does the old dead payload of reef bones not help feed and kick start the new bacteria that we need?
i know you need to seed it first but wont they help rather than hinder in the growth and conlonisation of bacteria.
:confused:
Hey thats an interesting point. Maybe like the kickstart used by the old prawns. I think the possible problem maybe the constant slow leeching out of phosphates. I think it's possible it may depend on the individual rock. Mine has something rattling inside that worries me :(
mattsilvester
13-01-08, 09:44
Seasalt - the thing is with "waste" material, is that it quite literally is "what goes in must come out" - It takes months for the nitrate consuming bacteria to colonise and multiply...... so basically all that waste is going to break down to nitrate and then just sit there...... likewise with phosphate..... anything that is on, or in the rock is going to just sit there. What is worse is that the dry rock is going to act as a sponge and soak up phosphates and nitrates and will hold that until the background levels of nitrate and phosphate start to drop...... then as the levels drop, the waste will start leaching back into the water..... depending on how aggressively you tackle these levels it could take months for all the nutrients to leach back out....... and what I reckon the problem is that I have now is the algae is forming a blanket over the rock, and catching all the phosphate before it rises into the water column.......
that makes sence,
i suppose with the "old prawn" method there is the initial amonia spike of the decay followed by the nirites rather than, as you point out, the continued slow release of crap by the bones. makes sence,
i might just soak my bones for a week or two to get them "cooking" and then scape my tank, its as fresh as a daisy so not worried about it affecting stock (of which i have none)
then the remaining stuff can kick start the cycle.
mattsilvester
13-01-08, 12:54
seasalt - if it is a new tank, then I think with some careful preparartion you should be ok. Do you have a pressure washer? If so, I would first give them a good going over with that..... alternatively use a toothbrush and a tooth pick to get out / scrub off as much crap as you can. Something I read on a U.S. forum was soaking them in a olution of vinegar and water..... this guy used 9 gallons of water and a gallon of vingegar in a 10 gallong bucket, with a power for a week..... the idea being to soften up anything hard and manky..... then again give them another going over with the presuure washer and/or tooth brish......
The soak again in freshwater for a few days - maybe put them in a bucket ouside and let a hose pipe run through it for 48hrs.....
If that doesn't get off 90% of the much, then nothing will.
After that, I would suggest setting up your tank and put in a little bit of
LR (as in just a couple of kilos) to get the bateria going, and get your skimmer going from the start, and use rowaphos from the start...... after a week or two of "curing" if phosphate etc. is at or near zero, then go and get the rest of your "real" LR, and add the sand if you are using it..... but again, keeping rowaphos running all the time, and keping a close eye on phosphates, and for the first month, while the set up matures, I would suggest no lighting either, to allow anything to leach out before algae films lock it in......
Keep an eye on phosphate - replace rowaphos as required.
Run a small amount of good carbon, and change weekly.
Adding a polyfilter migt be an idea also.......
This all seems excessive, but for the sake of a week or 10 days of patience and a little bit of srubbing, and a few quid on carbon / rowaphose etc. its well worth it to eliminate the risk of later problems......
THats what I would do if I were setting up a bit tank again....
sounds like a plan to me,
one little floor though in my sake,
TOOTHBRUSH and PICK
Have youn seen my thread title?????? :laugh: " The IMpatient Man"
lol I'm better now but will probably stick to the jet wash method then i a bucket for a few days! if i can find one big enough!
thanks for the method, i'll keep you posted as to how it goes!:thanks:
mattsilvester
13-01-08, 22:26
seasalt - the only thing I would be cautious of is the vinegar bit.... it seems to make sense to me, but you might want to check it out with a "chemistry" guy first...... its not something I have done, just read about.
Good luck :)
Matt
It probaby not something id use either
but only as it seems a waste, think i'll stick to the jet wash,rowa,carbon method.:thumbsup:
mattsilvester
13-01-08, 22:36
well I've used vinegar for cleaning power heads etc..... its great! in a 5:1 mix, stick a coraline covered power head in it over nice and it just wipes clean with a piece of kitchen roll......
If its "safe" to do it, then I would, because it will turn anything organic into mush, and if you then put a jet washer on it, its really going to clean it up well.......
I just don't know if vinegar is going to soak into the rock and it thats gonig to be a problem? ......... it shouldn't be, because the disolving limestone should nuetralise it, but as I sau, I'd check that with a "chemistry guy" first..... its defineitely worth a look..... and a gallon of vinegar is gonig to cost like a tenner or something......
thats a point,
as reefbones is/are organic material,
i don't want to soak my bones overniht and then end up with nothing left in the morning! :laugh:
I'll use it for equipment though!
I used almost exclusively reef bones for my tank (certainly all the main aquascape is). To cure them I used a large plastic tub (from Homebase or B&Q etc), salted water, heater, loads of flow, skimmer and towards the end, a PO4 reactor. I also had a stocking of sand/gravel from my old tank in there, and I also dosed Prodibio Biodigest and Bioptim. One thing I should have done more, but didn't, were big water changes - essential for nutrient export.
mattsilvester
14-01-08, 11:03
seasalt - the idea would be that a gallon of vinegar would erode the top layer - maybe like 0.1mm? - at least that is what I am assuming - its not going to turn the whole lot to mush :) ......
I used reef bones interestingly enough, i have hair algae in my tank, about 90% of the algae grows only on the reef bones hardly any on the cured LR.
i have a PO4 reading of 0
i read somewhere on the site that the algae can absorb nutrients from the reef bones, once these nutrients are absorbed the algae will just disapeer subject to the rest of ure tank conditions being right. i also find it grows really fast on milliput used for fragging.
mattsilvester
15-01-08, 12:50
Red,
Your experience is similar to mine (dunno about the milliput bit - I use deltec aquascape) - I just find it too much of a coincidence that the algae chooses to grow more vigourously on the reef bones than it does on the "proper" LR, and alot of people say the same thing.
However, as I say, If I were setting up another big tank where you need like 100 kg of rock, I would do the same thing again, I would just be much more careful and thorough with the reef bones......
Does anyone have any comment on the use of vinegar as I described above?
Cheers,
Matt
ive used reffbones twice infact i have at least twenty kilos that wont fit in the tank no algae issues but i did rinse and soak the rock for a couple of days
wookie7062
29-03-08, 17:40
I used 20 kg of both live rock and German bones. I had lots of algae to start with and attribute it to the phosphate coming out of the bones. I am at the moment curing live rock and that is leeching phosphate too. If cost was an issue I would have no problem using Reef Bones again.
Your experience is similar to mine (dunno about the milliput bit - I use deltec aquascape) - I just find it too much of a coincidence that the algae chooses to grow more vigourously on the reef bones than it does on the "proper" LR, and alot of people say the same thing.
Algae, finds it kinda tough to grow on coraline:whistling:, absorb the info, re-evaluate and go figure;).
It has nothing do with cost, more so about understanding and ecological issues:whistling:. Ignorance is not a bliss in this instance:annoyed:. Not wanting to mash my words, but you would have to be a complete media pulverised sheepish ignorant **** to buy 'live rock' in this day and age:whistling:.
I should add, IMO:D
mattsilvester
30-03-08, 10:56
....you would have to be a complete media pulverised sheepish ignorant **** to buy 'live rock' in this day and age....
So basically you are call me and that the vast majority of people here on UR a "....sheepish ignorant ****..." Well thats just swell..... wish I was cool like you :worship:
BTW did you plug out your reef last night for Earth Hour....... being and "ecological issue" and all.......
hmm, right, lets get back to the topic...
I used about 90% reef bones in my setup. I found the hair algae during my cycle to cover pretty much everything but as it cleared up it tended to only reappear on the reef bones that had had no coraline growth on them and less so on the bones with coraline.
The turbo snails also seemed less inclined to clean the more "virgin" reef bones compared to the ones that had a (dead) coraline growth.
I don't have any unexpectedly high PO4 readings. I did cure the bones in simple tap water with a strong flow for quite a few weeks prior to washing them down before setting up the tank. A lot of gunk came out of them over that time. I was concerned they may take up some bad stuff from the mains supply but as yet all seems well.
There does seem to be two main types of bones available. The bones from Germany are very fresh and virgin. They have a lot of recently dead sponge etc on them. The bones from the UK I sourced were much cleaner - I got much more of a fine silt from curing them, no organic matter at all.
my experience is yes reef bones equal more green hair algae.... It grows like mad on the bones but not my other rock ???????
mattsilvester
08-04-08, 10:27
Just as a follow up .... an FYI of sorts......
A couple of months back, I was having hair algae problems that I could not trace.
I removed all my rock, disgarded the "german reef bones" and "cooked" my remaining "true" LR (arounf 50 kgs) along with about 20-30 kgs of fresh "uncured" LR for a period of 6 weeks, before reintroducing to the main tank.
Result: I have not seen any nuisance algae and the tank is doing great. It should be noted that I also went bare bottom at the same time. It should be further noted before this, my parameters were all excellent, zero phosphate and low nitrate(less than 1-2ppm) - since going BB I am now runnign at about 5ppm nitrate and slightly detectable phosphate, yet no algae.
Conclusions:
Because I done a couple of things, then a number of conclusions may be arrived at
(1) The cooking process cured the problem, and the "bones" were sacrificed needlessly.
(2) Removing the sand cured the problem, the "bones" were sacrificed needlessly, and I wasted my time cooking teh rock.
(3) The cooking of rock and the removal of sand was a waste of time, removing the bones did the trick.
(4) The most likely - a combination of low nutrients (no sand), clean rock (cooking) and removal of the bones did the job.
In short..... there is really no conclusion :rolleyes: Nonetheless, I just wanted to add my comments, since a thread of mine was one of those that originally sparked off this thread......
Regards,
Matt
I've had large amounts of hair algae on just the reef bones. However regular skimmer cleaning, changing of phosphate remover in my reactor and lots of manual removal of the algae and a lot of it is dying back already.
BionicYeti
27-12-08, 20:10
Just bringing this to the top in the hope of tracing some good reef bones. I dont mind washing them a few times over but dont have the space to store them for months to cure them :(
Hi,
I setup my new tank with reef bones from Germany. I added about 70kgs and a single rock from my old tank to seed the bones.
After the cycle completed I added two bottles of Tiggerpod Copepods and dosed Live Phyto once a day until the bottle was empty. I then left it for 3 weeks, didn't even clean the glass nor run the skimmer.
Now maybe I am lucky or maybe the pods and phyto had something to do with it but, to this day, I have had no problems with hair algae whatsoever. Worst I had was diatoms which soon departed after I fired up my Rowaphos reactor.
Totally different from the setup of the old tank with all live rock. I had hair algae all over the place for months on end until finally it died out on it's own.
Campbell
I got some 12-15 kilos of reefbones from another member about 6 months ago. I cured them for about 2 days in a salt bucket with high concentrations of Hydrogen peroxide to get rid of any organic matter left and to make sure the bones are nearly sterile. I have since then used it in the tank with a "ZERO" algae.
Nim
Hi
As already said these rocks need a good pre soaking as there can be a build up of phosphate in rocks as well as some organics. This is easily removed through a couple of good soaks and a wash.
Once in salt water you should have a good phosphate remover in line. This is no different from setting up with classic live rock as this will leach nutrients and phosphates regardless of being cured. The best approach during the break in period is to keep on top of phosphate and even if it is not showing up on a test kit you will have it so prevention is better than cure.
Another forgotten aspects is with either live or dead rock during break in, what have you got the lights on for. At this point any aquarium is a chemical soup that is an ideal nutrient for your aquarium. The light is not needed.
Also grazing pressure once you are up and running is always important you cannot expect a piece of rock that in the wild will be grazed up to 20 times per day to stay algae free.
Once you have algae is the wrong time to add grazers, heavy grazing before you have a problem prevents hair algae getting started and snails etc will graze the fine filaments before your eyes can see it.
regards Jez
Fantastic advice from Jez. I learnt the hard way. Once you have visible hair algae your options start to get quite limited. Regular physical removal is your best bet.
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