View Full Version : Large tanks and Miracle Mud - possible?
Looking for some idea, none of the 300g plus reefers seem to be using this method for filtration, off the top of my head SiG, craigg, Tuan eg. Is there a particular reason for this? We've seen first hand MM does work with sps and a fair amount of fish, and the biggest I know of is Marcus Resch's 250g and thats packed with sps and fish.
Any ideas?
Could it be that the expense could be restrictive for the quantities you would require for a tank that large??
Cost and faith. The I use aragamud but wouldn't use it without a great big skimmer too.
Now that I have a denitrator on my tank I'm thinking of taking all the mud out and leaving it out the next time I have to change it. The denitrator is far superior at reducing nitrates and I will still grow caulerpa in the fuge despite the mud being gone.
Underworld products who import and wholesale MM have a 1.5mx1mx1m (1500ltr) tank running on it. It has been running continuesly for 5?yrs and has gone from strength to strength.
The growth and quality of the sps and fish is stunning.
As for cost I looked at MM for my 600gall system and worked out it would cost me about the same as a skimmer for the system.
Cost and faith. The I use aragamud but wouldn't use it without a great big skimmer too.
Now that I have a denitrator on my tank I'm thinking of taking all the mud out and leaving it out the next time I have to change it. The denitrator is far superior at reducing nitrates and I will still grow caulerpa in the fuge despite the mud being gone.
Which denitrator do you use Nick, did it take a while to set up and do its stuff?
Underworld products who import and wholesale MM have a 1.5mx1mx1m (1500ltr) tank running on it. It has been running continuesly for 5?yrs and has gone from strength to strength.
The growth and quality of the sps and fish is stunning.
As for cost I looked at MM for my 600gall system and worked out it would cost me about the same as a skimmer for the system.
Yep, I've seen that tank in Coral Haydn, suppose the power cost of running a skimmer will be similar to lighting the fuge, what made you decide in the end?
MM was very new when I was considering it so i took the cowards way out and went with the proven technology, a skimmer.
However, I have got developers after the house again and if this one is sucessful I have a hankering after a 6'x6'x3' deep tank viewable from two sides and I quite fancy trying a MM system but I may back it up with a small skimmer:whistling: (to reduce oxygen depletion overnight). But this is still in the 'wouldn't it be nice' stage
Which denitrator do you use Nick, did it take a while to set up and do its stuff?
I have a Deltec NFP 616. It's alchohol fed. I bought it second hand so it was already mature but after watching how quickly the bacteria build up inside I can't imagine a new one would take much longer than a month or so to start reducing nitrates considerably. Plus it consumes hardly any alchohol to keep it running.
simon garratt
23-01-08, 10:41
If you use it in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, (and later revalations) the logistics of running a very large system on MM can be daunting. Youd need a very large sump system to spread the media over a suitable area at the recommended depth, compared to the deeper and more compact DSB approach. You then have the cost of replenishing the media and add to this the water changes.
In a talk i went to, what surprised me was the fact that on the example systems shown which admittedly were very good. the average ratio was upwards of 40% per month.
on a big system, this could be very time consuming and, very very costly in terms of salt...
agreed, the results were stunning, but it brings into question whether it was the media/system that was responsible, or the water changes..?
in which case, what was the justification in all that extra expence, and was it actually better £ for £ than more traditional methods.?
Regards
Si.
Thanks for replies guys, I hadn't considered the cost of water changes, pretty frightening.
Ocean Corals
23-01-08, 19:19
Thanks for replies guys, I hadn't considered the cost of water changes, pretty frightening.
What do you mean the cost of water changes? I have a MM set up and it cost me no more them any1 else to do a water change?
Paul
See Si's post above, some people are changing 40% a month, imagine the cost on a 300/400g system.
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 20:12
From what I have read a 20% or so water change per month is all that is required. There is actually no recommended water change volume. Some people can go 3-6 months with out a water change, relying on the water top-up to introduce fresh water in the tank..or so they claim:laugh:
I setting up a 185g main system that will use MM + Macro algae in the sump/fug, hang-on fug with MM and once i get all the kit together i will start a thread.
It will also have about 20 Red mangrove plants (already growing in my 25g MM and cheato tank to give em a head start)
It is not the 300g+ tank we are talking about, but the sump is 42g, the hang-on will be 16g so @240+g in total.
I will also be using a skimmer;) ...why.....
...because...
I actually don't believe on this MM vs other systems debate (not saying this thread is :rolleyes: ), but I do believe that despite the advances and knowledge we have seen in the past few decades regards our expensive hobby experimentation is still the key, and the closer we can mimic nature the better for the live stock we keep:D
I have read all the MM stuff, the non-MM method stuff, done the calculations and they pretty much tally to about the same cost.;)
What I am striving for is a system that uses as much natural filtration as poss, and using skimmer is natural (it at least replaces the natural foam fraction of waves in the sea) for us home aquarist.
I think what has put people off is the claims made by ecosystems regarding their MM, and the rather high expense of the MM. It still dont put me off though:)
Also the perception that its got to be either the MM system OR the non-MM system route.
for me I am prepared to mix and match it to as close a nature as poss.
I would love to see some one who has actually kept a MM system for a few years give us all a full history of their experiences.
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 20:12
:whistling:
Frogfone are the people to answer that, MM for about 5 yrs iirc, no skimmer, healthy fish and a 4x2x2 so crammed with coral growth/clam growth its almost bursting at the seams.
Theres your cue Roddy, remember that picture update we were talking about..............................:whistling:
Ocean Corals
23-01-08, 21:37
I have a 200g MM set up i have done 3, 10% water changes in 6 months! Not because a cant be bothered its just i dont see the point unless something is rong. My water quality 100% my fish are stunning in colour and my corals are growing very well. I dont not have a skimmer ) i thin they take out more good then harm) My sump is teaming with life so y skim it out??? The shop inter fish told me all about MM and i am so glad they did as i ran a skimmer only set up b4 (never again) They have a MM set up and its been running 5year now and you wanna see it! The coral groth is awsome. The colours of there fish are better then any i have ever seen! and with a copper band been in there for 4and a half year thats something to be proud of as they dont normaly live past a year in most set ups! I have been told about a guy who has not fed his fish in 1 and a half years because of all the life in his MM set up! and i sure he keeps water changes to a min. I think 20% in a month is only if you want to. The only down side (i can see) in a MM set up is the water clarity is not as good as a DSB or LR sump. I admit a skimmer would prob sort that out but like i said b4 im not a great beliver in skimers! anyway thats my 2p worth
HTH
Paul
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 21:38
Just been going through Frogfone's threads...very interesting. PM'ed as well..sure would like an update on their ecosystem tank.
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 21:43
Cheers for that Storm...maybe i'll steup with the skimmer conected but not use it unless i need to. Any pics please..would luv to see what u got
Underworld products who import and wholesale MM have a 1.5mx1mx1m (1500ltr) tank running on it. It has been running continuesly for 5?yrs and has gone from strength to strength.
The growth and quality of the sps and fish is stunning.
As for cost I looked at MM for my 600gall system and worked out it would cost me about the same as a skimmer for the system.
and another interesting point is that this tank runs at 24oC and 30ppt.
Just thought I throw that in. :)
Ross, I was going to go this route as well for my, to use your patented phrase (or is it Wombat's patent) FOWLR-I :D tank but was advised against it. The reason being that MM systems "expect" a near constant level of nutrients and this allegedly doesn't happen with large fish populations and therefore large swings in nutrients.
Campbell
.
the average ratio was upwards of 40% per month.
on a big system, this could be very time consuming and, very very costly in terms of salt...
agreed, the results were stunning, but it brings into question whether it was the media/system that was responsible, or the water changes..?
Interesting Simon, mmmmm... wasn't/isn't there a lab analysis of MM somewhere on the 'Net that shows that there's really nothing special in MM?
Could be you are better off with the DSB.
Campbell
and using skimmer is natural (it at least replaces the natural foam fraction of waves in the sea) for us home aquarist.
That maybe not as accurate as you think at first. Yes there is foam and scum along the shoreline or on the beach but when the tide comes in it all gets reabsorbed, minus any that gets blown further inland of course.
Maybe something to consider.
Campbell
Cheers for that Storm...maybe i'll steup with the skimmer conected but not use it unless i need to. Any pics please..would luv to see what u got
or run the skimmer part-time, during lights on, as I am planning on doing. Using a opposite lit 'fuge in the sump to balance oxygen and pH during lights out.
Campbell
Ocean Corals
23-01-08, 22:02
Cheers for that Storm...maybe i'll steup with the skimmer conected but not use it unless i need to. Any pics please..would luv to see what u got
I Dont to hand mate but will get you some if you want. My tank is far from amazing like some on here as i still am new to this . Thats one of the resons i chose the MM its idot proof :whistling:
Want corals have you got in mind to keep??
Paul
Ocean Corals
23-01-08, 22:06
I have found a post on another wed site that the guy who told me about MM and helped me set it up rote, its a long one and one he rote along time ago when he was just taking a drip into the world of MM would i be in the bad book with the mod if i cut and pasted it on this thread?? Dont want to **** any1 off!!
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 22:11
U think Zeus, I suppose there is no perfect system. :D
But i do believe that all our efforts do contribute to the on-going knowledge we all need and use..here's to the power of shearing :thumbsup:
Think I'm just gonna settle in for the night an watch a DVD of "Coral Sea Dreaming - SE"...and dream ....:thanks:
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 22:16
Not sure at the moment what corals, but i have made a list ..i do like the flow of softies though in the currents....
And if u could on the pics that would be grand.
I am just waiting delivery of my hang-on fug and overflow box that "gturnbull" is building for me..than its tank thread time:D ...cant wait
dxmarinefish
23-01-08, 22:17
dont't know about posting links to other sites, but u can pm me the link ls...cheers
U think Zeus, I suppose there is no perfect system. :D
Oh there is, it's called the Ocean. :laugh:
Happy dreams. :D
Campbell
simon garratt
23-01-08, 22:22
By all means take my coments as you see fit.
No offence to frogfone, who admittedly is doing very well. :)
But it dont detract from the 'fact' that upwards of 40% monthly changes 'were' stated on example systems talked about and shown in video footage by the very guy who invented the system.
I should know, I was stood less than 6ft away from the guy at the time...;) as were others.
Not saying that its 'needed' in all cases, especially if there is a light fish load. The main thing is though, that its a large outlay 'should' you fall into the catagory that does require large water changes. Just becouse frogfone has managed to find a compromise, it doesnt mean others will be so lucky, nor as skilled...and a 3-400 gallon system isnt just a 'dabble' by any means. its a lot of money to plough into a system, that may fall one side of the fence o the other.
regards
si.
will start this of with some key points , which will no doubt start some controversy.
1. Ecosystem method does work well if you understand it and set-up your system accordingly.
2. it's not a cheap option because you don't need a skimmer. we do 20% fortnightly water changes. our new system will be twice the size and we will still be doing 20%. it's the only way to remove pollutants and introduce fresh trace elements in the correct ratio's.
3. Bigger tank = better ecosystem. larger ecosytems are inherently more stable. which is why amazing display tanks are usually large. that said our 120g reef has been fine for 5 years but is starting to look a bit tired macrolife wise and would have needed stripped and reseeded shortly anyway. but then how many tanks of any size last longer than 5 years?
4. Miracle Mud is not the only product on the market. we use Kent biosediment and i see no reason why you could not just use arag-mud or even just plain araga-sand and add supplements. Of course the people selling miracle mud are not going to say this as that would be like a hoover salesman telling you that all vacuum cleaners are much the same. Caulerpa need trace elements to grow well ,that's really what it's about.
5. skimmers and ecosystems don't mix - they strip out plankton more efficiently than protein. so as soon as you add a skimmer it's a skimmed tank with a refugium, which is fine but the skimmer is always going to be your main source of nitrate control so make sure it can cope.
For a bit of light reading try wikipedia's "Ecosystem" page it gives you a good layman's view of what an ecosystem is. if that seems like a lot of hard work buy a skimmer. I use an ecosystem because i have an environmental biology degree that would otherwise be wasted. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
seriously you don't need that amount of knowledge but you do need some as Ecosystem is about Biological processes not Mechanical ones.
Roddy
simon garratt
24-01-08, 01:09
Nicely put Roddy, and good luck with the new system. Im sure it will be a stunner.
regards
si.
Roddy, I wonder if you could answer couple of questions:
I have been successfully running a 180Gal MM system for around 5 years 2 of which I have also run a small berlin skimmer which has helped to keep the nitrates to below 2ppm. I also do a 6% weekly water changes.
Now to the questions,
Do you have to replaced 50% of the kent biosediment every other year as you are meant to do with the MM?
On the kent website it states One thing to remember is to never, never, never run the lamps 24 hours a day… NEVER! , this contradicts what MM say when using their system, in your opinion/experience who is correct ?
al.
dxmarinefish
24-01-08, 11:24
Interesting info alasdair, I have never looked at kent biosediment (have looked at and using mineral mud, and will be using MM).
I wonder what this would do to the problem of Caulerpa going asexual???
Practical experience by a lot of people is that lights on 24/7 helps stop this happening.
Could it be that the composition of both these competing products makes Caulerpa act differently under 24/7 lights???
Don't want to drift off thread too far here but has anyone actually used the 'Jaubert' method with any success... I have seen a couple of systems using this method but only overseas... They were both medium sized and skimmerless but did use large(ish) water changes... All i can add is that the occupants of both looked 'ok'... not thriving...
The whole theory behind the method was sound but Prof. Jaubert relied on decent water change direct from the Med...
wayne in norway
24-01-08, 14:26
No, but I wish I'd tried now and likely will when I get round to setting up a tank styled on Julian sprungs tank with plenum (the one in lots of books ie Fossa and Nilsson). Roy Meekes uses these with great success and posts on here sometimes. Not all of Monacos tanks use full time water replby the way. It can work for sure.
Big tanks - Mr 4000 - 400 gallons used a mud system. I've seen a big mud based system in Houston that's been in a few books, no problems that I saw there.
The actual mud - as long as it's fine enough, maybe who cares. As it's that fine, reduction to ammonium will take place at a very shallow depth making it very accessible to the 'rooted' caulerpa, and explaining the success of the securely fastened algae. That, and access to iron are surely the advantages of this over rooting in sand (which I do) or free floating chaeto.
Do you have to replaced 50% of the kent biosediment every other year as you are meant to do with the MM?
We have replaced it once in 5 years, 1 tub @ £18. Caulerpa has stopped growing so we thought it may be related. Also replaced tubes over refugium so it could have been either.
reduction to ammonium will take place at a very shallow depth making it very accessible to the 'rooted' caulerpa, and explaining the success of the securely fastened algae
Strangely our caulerpa grows in a free floating 1" thick matt, so has little or no access to the substrate. It is lit 24/7, the lights have never been turned off in years!!! 54w ASL compact T5 unit.
I have to say I have a totally different take on our tank and the "ecosystem method"
I reckon any good sized tank, with good flow, good lights, a calcium reactor and a very low bioload like we have would look just as good. I doubt the mud has much to do with it and the success of our own tank is more to do with our fortnightly water change regime and the fact we have less than 10 fish:laugh:
Sharon
I might as well chuck something in here as well. I have no definite ideas about what is happening or why, but my observations are:
1) I have about 1.5 to 2inch think Miracle Mud layer. It is supporting a small tank, volume about 100l with 3 greedy fish.
2) The MM is crawling with creatures. Pods running around the surface, brittles just under the surface and worms to about three quarters down.
3) I have the same caulerpa as Frogfone (cos they gave it to me:) Thanks again Frogfone :thumbup:). Mine is partially rooted into the mud, although it prefers the rock bits I have sitting on an eggcrate table just above the mud.
4) 22Watts of PC for 24 hours lighting, over about a foot square. The tank fills to a solid block of caulerpa in about 2-3weeks.
5) No skimmer, just LR, MM, Caulerpa, and a wee trickle tube of Rowaphos.
6) Ammonia = 0, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate <0.2, Phosphate <0.03.
7) The water sometimes has a slight yellow tint, and there is always 'bits' floating about in the water.
Now if I could just get the Mag, Calc & Alk right :annoyed:
If I ever get to set up my big tank, I'm planning to go half Kent, half MM, balling, (and possibly a skimmer, unless I can find some better way to get rid of the floating bits).
N.
PS. If any of the above helps you conclude something, please let me know what it is :)
---Edit---
What do you meen 100l isn't a large tank! :)
Have you posted pics of this tank Simon, or have I missed them?
Hiya was REALLY chuffed to find a whole thread on mm users! sad i know but we have had a trigon 190 for five years and just upgraded to a 5x2x2 two weeks before xmas.We run a deltec skimmer as the tank is new and we get alot of stinking brown sludge which is becoming less. Now the skimmer is timed for 4 hours during the day and 4 hours on a night.The sump has calerpa which is growing massively and the sump and tank is teaming with life, its great. However my question is do I put bio balls in the 2nd and 4th compartments or not. I have just taken them out after being frightened by people saying get them out theyre nitrate horders but then my lfs said you must use them with mm. I need to know WHY you need to use them with mm Im not willing to just go with the flow and risk losing anything in my tank for the simplicity of asking people with experience.The perameters are brilliant i want it to stay that way !!PLEASE answer me thanks Shelly
Shelly, as I understand it, if you have plenty of live rock in your system, you shouldn't use the bioballs. These are good are converting amonia to nitrite, and then to nitrate. Unlike liverock though, they cannot get rid of the nitrate. I don't believe that MM requires the use of the balls at all, if anything it should further remove the need for them.
I have just bought a hangon fuge for my Rio 300. I got some calerpa an cheato with it but it seems to be dying, it took me a while to get it set up and it died back in that time, its now more brown than green.......will it recover or should I take it out ?
Then again most of the successful Mud sytems I know of have not removed the bioballs, Frogfones being an example, their params are quite frankly disgusting..............(in a good way;) )
I think the thinking behind the bioballs in a "standard" MM system is that you WANT them to produce the nitrates for the caulerpa in the algae bed to utilise. FWIW I would leave them in!
John
chriskirby101
03-02-08, 19:23
Home system running MM for over 1 year now , system is a piece of cake to look after.
New display system at cyber 10x2x3 feet running MM.
3000 gallon Coral / Inverts system @ Cyber running 100% MM.
It works.
Chris
Yes I would leave your Bioballs in, The original blurb that I read was that they were there to prevent to a mass of tiny air bubbles entering the section of the sump with the caulerpa in as this would restrict it growth.
They also will help prevent Ammonia and nitrite spikes if say a fish dies and you are not around to spot it.
Now if I could just get the Mag, Calc & Alk right :annoyed:
Use the balling method it works really well in mud system.
If I ever get to set up my big tank, I'm planning to go half Kent, half MM, balling, (and possibly a skimmer, unless I can find some better way to get rid of the floating bits).
To get rid of the floating bits use the re-useble filter bags that you can clean in the washing machine - when the wife is not looking :whistling: .
al,
dxmarinefish
05-02-08, 08:38
Home system running MM for over 1 year now , system is a piece of cake to look after.
New display system at cyber 10x2x3 feet running MM.
3000 gallon Coral / Inverts system @ Cyber running 100% MM.
It works.
Chris
Got any pics Chris. Love the new Cyber website :worship: ,
chriskirby101
06-02-08, 07:30
will get some more up of the display systems and sumps..
Yes I would leave your Bioballs in, The original blurb that I read was that they were there to prevent to a mass of tiny air bubbles entering the section of the sump with the caulerpa in as this would restrict it growth.
I don't use Bioballs in my tank, although I have a lot of live rock.
Oh, another point... I have a shelf in my sump, just after the baffle, that directs the water through the middle of the algae. It's best to make sure your water can't just flow over the top of the mud chamber.
To get rid of the floating bits use the re-useble filter bags that you can clean in the washing machine - when the wife is not looking :whistling: .
Cheers. I'm re-building a filter component in my sump at the moment. Currently it holds my Rowaphos, but when the new one is finished it should be large enough to take a filter bag, and the occasional bag of carbon as well.
Hopefully that'll sort it :)
Hi,
Our tank is an ecosystem set up. 260l main tank 100l (approx) sump. No skimmer. We have kept the bioballs in the sump. We have a mixture of caulerpa & cheato - and the sump is lit 24/7. We also have about 38kg live rock in the main tank and used live sand as the substrate. Tank is now 5 months old. Tons of life - wriggling everywhere in the sump and the live sand is full of little critters - as with others though, our water is full of "bits".
This is proving very interesting reading. We have been doing 10% water changes once a month. and the water params were text book perfect (note were!). We had a death 3 weeks ago that naughtily we didn't notice for 2 days (not the most sociable fish so wasn't obvious and body was well hidden!). Anyway, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & phosphate were all off the scale. Emergency water changes carried out and ammonia, nitrite & phos now undetectable (and have remained so for the last two weeks so are happy with that) BUT Nitrates are still high (25ppm - was 2 before the death but did reach 100 immediately after and before emergency water change) - we are really struggling to bring them back down to 2 so another big water change is on the cards.
Question is - having read some people's thoughts on water changes with a MM system and nitrate consumption/bioballs etc - maybe this now more showing the "Normal" nitrate level for our tank so we should be upping our regular water changes anyway or do you think it is still sorting itself out - what do people think?
Ta
Vic
hi guys ive been running a mm sys for two and a half years no skim[ i have some pics on members tanks] i do change 5 gals a week and it tops up about the same which i feed at night thr a kalk stir everyone who see the tank cant bel the growth and pol ext of the sps my sump is alive my tank is 130 gal tot so not as large as the 300gal your thinking of running good luck
dxmarinefish
27-02-08, 18:12
Vivky_99, did you wash out the bio-balls after the death and massive water change?
Just a thought but maybe replace the bioballs, see what happens. + might be cheaper than a regular high water change.
No we didn't clean out the bio balls. Would you clean them in RO water or old tank water whilst doing a water change or in tap water (and kill everything on them!)?
I think we'll try one more big water change this weekend and see what happens from then. If the Nitrates creep back up to a high level again, we'll have to rethink something!
Thanks
Vicky
dxmarinefish
28-02-08, 18:14
I think just clean them after the death and chem spike only, or better change em.
I dont think it will affect your live culture as most if not all will be in the sump.
Bio balls to just help feed the macro algae with nitrates...
My opinion is that MM method is just a way of making money.
All you need to do is create a nice enviroment for the Algae to grow and remove nutrients.
This does not need to be expensive. I ran a system for 4 years with a refugium with normal sand, a small skimmer and lights above it and the algae grew fine.
The 24c thing i believe is because Caulerpa has not benn observed going Aesexual below 25c
A lot of people use Chatomorphia.
Personally i'd have a section with Chaeto and a Dsb section. Cheaper and does the same Job all without the Gimmicks.
If MM was needed nature would be purchasing it
Have you run any systems that did have MM?
My opinion is that MM method is just a way of making money.
All you need to do is create a nice enviroment for the Algae to grow and remove nutrients.
This does not need to be expensive. I ran a system for 4 years with a refugium with normal sand, a small skimmer and lights above it and the algae grew fine.
The 24c thing i believe is because Caulerpa has not benn observed going Aesexual below 25c
A lot of people use Chatomorphia.
Personally i'd have a section with Chaeto and a Dsb section. Cheaper and does the same Job all without the Gimmicks.
If MM was needed nature would be purchasing it
wayne in norway
07-01-09, 17:26
What a strange last comment. As someone who works with marine sediments I can assure you mud beats sand by about 10:1 in terms of areal population, and natural beds of algae on top of sand are definitely the exception. Algae on top of mud is pretty common.
If you really don't want to pay for MM use one of the freshwater plant soils.
I'd also comment I've seen one of the large MM sytems in the US and talked to the owner, and I doubt she was doing water changes on the scale mentioned earlier. It was an amazing system w.r.t. acro's but the fish population was pretty small. It was pretty convinving evidence this is a good methodology tho', but no two systems seem the same.
ourmanflint
09-01-09, 00:10
My opinion is that MM method is just a way of making money.
snip...
If MM was needed nature would be purchasing it
Very true... old mother nature knows her stuff, and uses 1,000,000's of tons of the stuff, the whole seabed is MM! And don't even get me starteed on the importance of Mangroves and all that mud there!! :whistling:
Rod
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