Sun coral nano-tank ideas?

[dendro982RC]

Need ideas: how to make well functioning and easily accessible nano-tank for tubastreas, may be together with chilis, gorgonians and scleros, if flow and feeding requirements allow.
Your input, please. Especially, who is keeping big colonies in nanos.

My concerns:
1. Positioning and the flow.

- the tank should be big enough for big colony to fit (mine, less than 2 yrs old, is 7+"/ 18 cm when open), plus 5 cm/2" on each side for a flow,

- the tank better to be shallow - for easy access for a feeding, then it have to be DIY made.
What clearance for a flow above coral should be?

You see, hang on power filter or power heads are meant to be hang across the short part of the tank, the flow will be reflected from the glass and will not bother corals after that. When I tried on the long side of 72 l /20g long tank, the flow widens, the farther from the power head - the more. I think about 20cm/7.5" clearance above the coral - but this is a waste of space and denies easy feeding access.

- if place the sun coral in usual 30 cm/12" deep tank, it can be at the bottom or raised on rocks. It this case the part of food will accumulate in the rock and rot, a problem. Cleaners do nothing to solve this problem, tried. Apart from being unable/unwilling to go to narrow places, when readily available food is readily available.

- compact placement of the repositioned (removed form main rock and glued to the own small rock or plastic plate) sun babies. I was thinking about using back tank's wall for this (plastic plate with babies, placed vertically, hand on the top), or flat surface at the top, making the second floor, also hanging on top, for easy access for a feeding by tweezers. Seems reasonable - not too many mouthes, less waste in the tank. Should occupy only half of tank - for cleaning the bottom floor. The second floor may interfere with powerhead, that is on the top too.

You see my point - minimal space with easy access for the feeding, without sun being bothered by the flow, or blocking the flow for other corals.

2. Another concern is about type of food and frequency of feeding:
- after feeding sun coral in a big tank, swiftia catches the pieces of mysis, too big to eat them. With time the will be dropped and have to be removed before they foul the water.
If no small-mouthed corals in the sun tank, the food leftovers can be easily removed from the bottom near coral by battery-operated gravel cleaner, right after the feeding.

- frequency of feeding: the sun may be fed only twice a week, the water will be cleaner, than in tank with almost constantly fed scleronephthya.

Getting the better skimmer is not and option - already have 2.5x oversized and will not spend $500+.
If you know, how to make usual venturi with needlewheel pump skimmer work - would appreciate advice. Asked at particular skimmer's thread - this is connected to a frequent feeding, in their opinion - they advised to ask you.

I would like to remove all non-photosynthetic corals from the big tank because of water quality problems. In one or two nanos, personal for sun corals or one tank for all.

Any thoughts?

[KeithM]

Hi Dendro,

Just to clarify, do you want to set up a nano tank dedicated to just Sun corals? or do you want to combine this with other NPS corals?

I think more attention needs to be paid to filtration. If you include other NPS corals, you will need to feed heavier than sun corals so IMO, you should think more about how to handle the bioload in a small tank. E.g. using carbon source to boost biological filtration? phosphate removers? zeolite stones?

You can't expect to pull out every single bit of uneaten food, so it would be good to have some detrivours and clean up crew. However, I would avoid any shrimps as these do not mix well with sun corals. You should make plans to have enough biological filtration capacity to deal with the excess nutrients.

How often will you carry out water changes?

[dendro982RC]

I would like to join all NPC, including two big sun corals, but not sure, if it will reasonable. All, except them (including sun babies), is quite possible - I'm keeping the first generation this way for more, than year, in 5g/20l tank.

But this time much more sun babies will need housing and placement with easy access :(

Planned filtration will be:
- micron sock (my skimmers are not good on their own, without mechanical filtration),
- oversized venturi skimmer,
- HOB acrylic refugium (practically flat sump behind the tank). It's equal the tank's back wall, and is 10cm/4" deep. Biofiltration - refugium is filled 1/3 by fine ceramic stones, in amount, recommended for 100g/380l tank, with LR pieces to fill the rest.
- phosphate removing media and carbon, but the last didn't helped much in the past,
- weekly water changes, in amount, necessary to keep water parameters tolerable. Gorgonians, chilis, with small cluster of sun babies, no scleronephthya, and without skimming, now it takes 30-40% weekly.

I'm not so worried about filtration (not too much options there, and all were already tried, know what to expect), how about sun babies compact and accessible placement, how bits of mysis will hang from gorgonians and chilis mouthes, and 17cm/7in. per sec flow for scleronephthya may bother sun corals.

Making skimmer work more efficiently will be desirable, but I already tried all imaginable. Still, after each feeding, skimming stops for 45 min-1.5 hrs, depending on kind of food. May be increase amount of food with fewer feedings? But how sclero will react?

[dendro982RC]

Update:
It works well, but still requires large water changes.
6g/23 l shallow tank, with a sump to house skimmer and biomedia.
The photo was taken before downsizing:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/6g%20suns%20tank/Fer24_09wholesetup.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/6g%20suns%20tank/Fer24_09aftermove.jpg
Had reproduction there:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/LPS/Tubastrea%20babies/Fer24_09ysb.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/LPS/Tubastrea%20babies/Fer24_09ysb2.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/LPS/Tubastrea%20babies/Fer24_09ysb3.jpg

[colt]

congratulations on the reproductions

[dendro982RC]

Thanks for the kind words.
As soon as I will walk better again I'll make a sun corals pico tank: 7.6 liters (2g), with 1-2 small frag of each species. Less feeding, less pollution. Small volume allows to keep it relying on water changes.

[dendro982RC]

Thought that it may be useful to post what I tried with this suns' nano.

Biomedia was moved after mechanical filtration, to prevent pores clogging.
Sump contains skimmer, biomedia, carbon, phosphate remover, ~25 micron filter bag. Sump is turned off from the tank circulation for a time of feeding. Micron sock is changes after 1-2 hrs of filtering after feeding.

Uneaten particles are removed by oversized pipette (turkey baster). Main problem is dissolved organics, that passed 25 micron sock and skimmer.

Ah, flow in the tank is ~1250 l/hr (330 gph) or ~50x tank volume per hr, including return pump. No more blaming slow flow in my tanks ;) .

Changes in configuration:
(mainly increasing skimmer size, up to to skimeer, rated by manufacturer for 40x larger tanks, no more blaming undersized skimmer):

1. Was 2g sump with Rio Nano skimmer (power filter-like hand on the back of the tank skimmer, rated for 114 l tanks, or 30g ). Water quality problems.

2. 6g sump to house ASM Mini G skimmer (pinwheel venturi, size of salt bucket, rated for 285 l tanks, or 75g). Still water quality problems (nitrates and phosphates. Phosphates are manageable by phosphate remover).

3. Same sump, housing the really large skimmer: ASM G-3 (needlewheel venturi, not recirculating, rated for 950 l tanks, or 250g). Previously it was used on the large tank shown below. Slightly better, but basically still the same. I gave up and returned to the middle-sized skimmer, for a time being.

Photos are in order of listing:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/LPS/Sep02_08sunshallow.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/6g%20suns%20tank/Fer24_09wholesetup.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/6g%20suns%20tank/Nov15_08ASMG3on6gsuns.jpg

Some observations:
- Watch for ammonia after large feedings, especially at beginning, when cycling ended, but biomedia is not yet ready for a large bioload.
- Small daily feedings (or morning and evening feedings) are preferable to once in 3 days massive feedings (5 frozen cubes) - for this tank setup.
- The whole food (mysis, artemia, plankton), especially prewashed, pollutes less than grocery seafood. Costs much more, if you have many suns to feed.
- Light feedings, to keep corals interested in being open, may consist from Reef Plankton (crustaceans, larger than Cyclop Eeze). 1 cube is enough.
- Liquid phosphate remover was very efficient, including speed of removal and cost efficiency.
Did I miss anything?

Shallow tank allowed keep corals accessible, no more disconnecting superglue gel-epoxy putty glued sun corals from LR by cleanup crew. Usual cleanup crew (hermit crabs ans astrea snails) was inefficient. Main problem is DOM. Small tank allowed to use less salt water - to keep parameters in check, comparing to 340 l (90g tank), where they were previously:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/for%20eCoralia/Jun20_08_90g1.jpg

Sorry guys, no criticizing aesthetics: criticizing is always easier than keeping corals alive, especially with my level of equipment.
Want criticize - do better (on the same budget) and show it :D

[colt]

:D :D :D :D :D

Greetings,
I like the new configuration and you are quite right for the space in a larger container.
My tubastreas you are as I said in a sump with heads of two power flows found with an approx. 50X and I just turned the nanokoralia the additive in feed slurry of plankton and other food and Cyclop ezze then add mysis, rotifers, artemia, etc.

With respect to the dissolved organic matter not upheld by the sock and the skimmer, it would be feasible to use for the way you have configured your sun's nano, is to use an RO filter 1 micron sediment with activated carbon in line with and retain the most organic matter.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:eR7USQsHgLcn5M:https://www.todoagua.aqua-soft.com.mx/images/MAX-T.jpg

[dendro982RC]

I never used RO filter, only saw their pictures, but it seems to me that they are not washable - single use only, then discard and buy next one. And, possibly, they should be used in pressurized container, like their own for RO/DI water. Am I mistaken?

I know that 1, 5 and 10 micron filter socks exist in US, bu wasn't able to find the seller who would agree to sent them to Canada by brokerage-free mail :annoyed:
Filter socks are polyester felt and are reusable, machine-washable and last at least 1 yr.
Negative size: washing them and smell of chlorine...

About why skimmer doesn't remove dissolved significant part of organics, only 20-30%: article (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2). Using different kind of food could be less polluting, but significant part of my feedings will be grocery seafood (shrimp, fish, baby cuttlefish or octopus; nobody wants eat myssels or scallops), and my sun corals don't like neither flake food or New Life Spectrum pellets for a fry (0.35 -0.5 mm).

[colt]

No, actually they are not washable, but could help retain the material that can not skimmed.

You're not wrong, as it should be placed in the pressurized container of RO / DI.

What type of water used in its preparation or to replenish the evaporated?

The food is going to do with the mode (Pappone)?

[dendro982RC]

Tap water, municipal, from faucet :rolleyes:
The same did mcox33 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7418028) from Dendronephthya study group, who kept dendronephthya for 3 yrs, and several other people from different places.

I know about advantages of using RO water, but have to use tap water, unless I will be able to reduce my fish room to one pico tank :D

No, I'm not using Pappone recipe (http://www.reefchat.org/tabid/95/ctl/ArticleView/mid/479/articleId/27/The-Pappone-Method.aspx) for coral food. Tried modified Blundell (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_1/cav1i3/Progressive_Recipe/Progressive_Recipe.htm) and Melev (http://www.melevsreef.com/food.html) recipes, but stopped. Part of the food mix was not approved and spit away by both: fish and corals. Since then I'm using only components that will be eaten.

Another downside with preparing coral food using blender: too much of the too big and too small particles, and the liquid, that couldn't be used. Much greater water pollution and very difficult to clean strainer after prewashing.

Ended grating (kitchen grater, the metal thing with small sharp holes) the frozen pieces. The next size of holes after smallest gives just right size.
Other food was added manually. Food is prewashed, time from tome soaked in vitamins, aminoacids. Vary rarely - in fats (Selcon).

[colt]

Hi

the advantages it gives you is that RO water removes chlorine, copper and heavy metals among others. but if the tap water is low in phosphates and silicates, I guess you can continue.
RO / DI helps the water are virtually undetectable and PO4 values of SI.
Also I've stopped with the recipe Melev by excess nutrients and increased PO4, besides changing the coral brown (chocolate).
following the ideqa Adam Blundell, I prepare a "slurry" with 3 different brands of phyto and zoplankton with Cyclop ezze to encourage coral and later add other foods that you mentioned (H2O) without prewash

[dendro982RC]

Yesterday worked on the next possible system to try.

Mainly it is a matter of efficient filtration/skimming and accessibility of the corals for a feeding and aiptasia treatment.
Theoretically, the following configurations look promising, but either are too expensive for main mass of aquarists, or already tried and it didn't work:

- Peninsula tank with black sand, hollow mountain ridge in the middle with powerhead in the end for sweeping off food, falling down. On timer or manual turning on and off. With side sump with the most compact filtration units, like Aquamedic Reef Filter or CPR Aquatic Drop in sump filter. Surely will be eye candy. The only questionable matter will be efficiency of the skimmer, as always. Prototype is Acoustic's 10g Nano at Nano-Reef.

- Shallow tanks, like mine, are very convenient, but not good for photography. Rimless tanks, drilled in the middle and connected to the sump below, will be quite impressive. The pico version (for photosynthetic corals) is at the Reef Central as 2g cube with MH, only canister filter should be replaced by skimmer and mechanical filtration.

- Mikekman's version is 24g Nano-Cube with acrylic hang on the back of the tank AquaFuge and Remora skimmer, hanging on the back of the refugium, Reef Central again. Truly elegant and slim design. Was used for housing small frags of the sun corals, but no follow up. I tried largest version of the refugium, with skimmer, fortified by dual output air pump, on rectangular tank. It wasn't efficient enough to keep water clean even for less polluting non-photosynthetic feedings (Christmas tree rocks).

- Brandon's (brandon429) handheld pico tank as prototype, only not sealed, wide version, living on water changes from the established tank or refugium (5+ times larger than the pico). Water changes with two mini-pumps (one pumping water in, while another pumps the dirty water out) allow not to expose inflated polyps to the air.

- Improvement for it and Nano-Cubes, who have surface skimming grid, could be forced mechanical filtration through the finest micron filter sock available. For Nano-Cubes - Remora skimmer on the back.

- Separate pico tanks, like Just Dave's at Nano-Reef. Smallest power filters, naturally, are not enough for filtration, but water changes for such volume should be a breeze. Better without exposing corals to the air. Forgetting will be a problem in 3-4 months, tried.

- I'm just curious if anyone tried 7g bow front tanks (like 7g bow forums and Bonsai Reef) for a heavy feeding.

- The good notion (not mine) was to move LR or biomedia behind fine mechanical filtration and skimming to avoid having too much greenery on the rock in tank within 6 months of heavy feeding. This means size of the sump should be increased to accommodate it. Fluidized bed filters are more compact, or DIY free standing column with Live rock rubble or Seachem Matrix biomedia, like denitrator, only higher oxigenated flow. Add ozone and efficient denitrator, if you can. From my humble experience, the more rock - the better, and oxygenated flow through it should be good.

Good looking tanks of this kind are Artsy cube and Jens Kallmeyer's large tank, with Reef Ceramic or foam wall (Reef Central again). Tried substitute them by siliconing LR rubble to the back wall - impossible to eliminate aiptaisa there, wouldn't advice that. Artsy cube has black back wall and black plastic pedestal in the middle, for mounting coral frags on the sides. That allows flow around with no collection of the debris in the middle, under live rock. In year or two corals will grow and will need more place or downsizing to frags again.

OK, I finished. If you have something to contribute to the topic - go ahead :)

[colt]

hello

-maybe bad translation online, I do not exactly understood, but it you're working for the next system is to unify the various models of Mikekman's, Brandon's, Dave's and will be Jens Kallmeyer's a role model.

-on the subject of sweeping the detritus food is used and what you can do with powerhead in an automated manner using a timer, at least for me it works.

-however, also work on changing aquarium with more action and I thought as joanxavier to comment on the issue of export of detritus to manually punching the base and retain Perlon filter and felt.

-but I will change all of the living rock, and with training in these fields, therefore it has been thought that a basis of aragocreto siment themselves to rocks, the base will have a bearing perpendicular to the detritus of a single point so you can easily export.

-I think that part of the filtration efficiency is due to over-skimmed, so if you can recirculated with an ASM Sedra KSP3500 more.

-definitely half either coal or phosphate eliminator, will give better results with fluidized bed filters and not passively for example: DIY (http://www.miacuario.cl/foro/viewtopic.php?t=1590)

but also avoids the reactor phosban 150
http://smedgecast.f3images.com/IMD/250/TL4311/TL4311_1.jpg

[colt]

you think of this method of cleaning?
http://www.e-coralia.com/panel/showthread.php?p=110814#post110814

"Desert Storm" (http://www.e-coralia.com/panel/showthread.php?p=110814#post110814)

[dendro982RC]

No, I checked what else could be done and made a list of separate possibilities. None of them is acceptable for me, but could be useful for other nano reefers. Some things I already tried and it didn't work well, something requires different equipment.

I tried oversized skimmer and high flow, it didn't help with water quality. I gave up. Will rely more on water changes. For this I have to use smaller aquarium and reduce corals' size to several polyps - to be able to fit them there, and less polyps require less food. Less food - less pollution.

I'm using manual food removing, then no food is left under the rock.

but I will change all of the living rock, and with training in these fields, therefore it has been thought that a basis of aragocreto siment themselves to rocks, the base will have a bearing perpendicular to the detritus of a single point so you can easily export.
Conical shaped base of coral, pointed end down? Could be not stable. I did opposite - wide base (support).
I have seen photos with sun corals, glued upside down to the rock, but food drops down during feeding. The same with mounting them on vertical surfaces - better for clean up, worse for a feeding efficiency.

Instead of making ASM G-3 skimmer recirculating (with additional Sedra 3500 pump), I bought another skimmer, already recirculating - Turboflotor 1000. More of this, this was used skimmer, that worked well for previous owner. not much difference.

I'm using the liquid phosphate remover and carbon is near the skimmer outflow. Trying to avoid unnecessary pumps :)

Desert storm is good for normal tanks, but I had read that bubbles could cause problems. ldrhawke used this with great success, though.
In sun coral tank the main problem, apart from regular feeding and aiptasia, is that skimmer doesn't keep water clean, and dosing organic carbon (vodka) was inefficient. I'm just tired of all of this.

[colt]

I'm just tired of all of this.

hi,
above all, do not you get tired of this hobby is wonderful and has met as large reproductions that have little in the sun coral.

actually the water chemistry has large uncertainties, especially in low water volumes.
In theory, the base can be conica to export organic waste generated by the corals and the food is harvested, but can also be a means Bulkhead, which allows us to export all this "waste" by hand.
undoubtedly partial water changes, is the best guarantee for maintaining water quality.

I'm using the liquid phosphate remover and carbon is near the skimmer outflow. Trying to avoid unnecessary pumps :)

at this point my attention to the waste that has not been retained by the skimmer is going to where the carbon.
so as to create a biological filter and a non-reactive to absorb water and improve.
I recommend that the carbon is in constant suspension to prevent detritus will be stored.

[dendro982RC]

No detritus in carbon, luckily. It is located after ~25 micron filter sock and skimmer and this area is practically detritus free.

I thought at beginning that what I described before is a problem, specific for nano tanks, but I had them in 340 liters aquarium, with the same skimmer (G-3 and recirculating Turboflotor 1000 later), all the same.

Because of tap water? Shouldn't be, there are people who used tap water and nevertheless were keeping unusual organisms with good results. And if reefkeeping is possible only after installation of RO device (or buying and carrying home vast amounts of water) - that should be printed by large red letters on beginners forums and articles about the basics :annoyed: .

Influenced by kind of food used? Possibly. Those, who had clean tubastrea tanks for a long time, used artemia (brine shrimp) and mysis. Chopped seafood for human consumption pollutes more, marine pellets and flakes - less, but have no long term data how last influence corals' well being.

[colt]

Even more interesting.

-In the event that an aquarium with two skimmers and filtration for coal and phosphates and is high NO3y PO4 parameters, a problem or a bad reading of the test.

-Perhaps the tap water is not the cause, but should not determine whether the water contains much less NO3 and PO4 and SI.

-It's also possible that the type of food is the cause, however in my experience on the topic of NO3 not exceed 5ppm, but with the phosphate, the result varies, even taking rowaphos and Chaeto algae.

-I have also managed lanthanum to reduce PO4 with great success, but was saddened gorgonians.

[dendro982RC]

:) Not two skimmers in the same time, it would require gigantic sump. ASM G-3 (not recirculating) was replaced by Turboflotor 1000 (recirculating). Both are rated by manufacturers for the same size of aquariums, 2.6x larger than I had (340 l).

I wish to have your optimism that skimmers couldn't fail, and that the tests are wrong. I was led to have the same belief. Now I have several different skimmers, on different tanks, have possibility to check and comare. Once made situation absurd: 950 liters rated skimmer on 23 liters tank, it didn't help.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Some%20of%20the%20tanks/6g%20suns%20tank/Nov15_08ASMG3on6gsuns.jpg
I posted already link to the article that has possible explanation of this.

The only thing that I didn't tried (and will not do that, not cost efficient) is keep water clean mostly by using large amounts of frequently changed carbon. It should work, but I'm not Rockefeller :rolleyes:.

Tap water has no detectable nitrates, phosphates, copper according to API kits (they are not LaMotte or Salifert, I know, but a lot of people are keeping their tanks alive and well with API kits).

I don't have my notes, but rise on NO3 even with washed mysis was up to 40 ppm within week or two. With feeding 5 frozen cubes at once, repeated every second day. This make me wonder, how Daniela Stettler fed mysis and artemis to her forest of sun corals, every day, and filtration was able to clean water after that.

I have diodogorgia, swiftia, muricella, mopsella (or menella) - they had not problem with liquid phosphate remover, but I dripped very few drops at time, inside ~25 micron sock, 2 times a day if necessary.