View Full Version : Responsibility ?
Dont want to start world war 3 ( Haven't got the bunker built yet ), and i know this is probably gonna raise a few eyebrows but, Whose responsibilty is it that we dont buy fish that are unsuitable for our system ? I think its the fishkeeper / reefkeeper who should be responsible enough to read up and find out basic information on size / aggresion / compatability etc. Do you think it would help for shops to display sizes or size chart ? I know people set on having such and such a fish WILL get one somehow. I only ask cos i've read some real horror threads of late :eek:
SmokinReefer
17-02-08, 12:01
Both in my opinion.
If you were a breeder selling dogs or cats you would not sell to someone unless you knew they could look after it.
Same in reverse, you would not buy unless you knew you could look after it.Both happen too often though.
In my opinion if you don't know how to look after an animal you are buying then how do you know it will live?
In my view it's the b uyers responsibilty, however the seller is repsonsible for giving good advice (if asked). So often people just don't so any research and ask the advice of the retailer who gives them plain bad advice.
Marineboy1010
17-02-08, 13:33
Both in my opinion.
If you were a breeder selling dogs or cats you would not sell to someone unless you knew they could look after it.
Same in reverse, you would not buy unless you knew you could look after it.Both happen too often though.
In my opinion if you don't know how to look after an animal you are buying then how do you know it will live?
I agree with the above it is up to a buyer to research whether a fish is suitable for their system. However if someone is selling a fish/coral/nem they know is unsuitable they are just as responsible. I am lucky in that the shop I go to has a computer in the shop so if there is anything that I've come across that I haven't researched and I haven't seen before I can do some research before I buy and make an informed choice. That way I am making my own choices (though if if I did make a poor choice I believe I would be told by my lfs before I made the purchase.
simon garratt
17-02-08, 13:36
Totally the responsibility of the buyer imo..
If you cant be botherd to read up on the animal, you shouldnt be buying it in the first place...Thats just ethicly and morally wrong husbandry..and theres absolutely no excuse for it..
99% of shops have books that you can look through to find more info...even if not for sale, all shops have a few ID books that they use for everyday use...and it takes just two seconds to ask, and a few minuits of reading....
Absolute worst case, you put a deposit down, go away, research and then go back.
The shop is there to supply hobbyists of 'all' types, ie those with huge tanks, to those with nanos so its not even up to us to sit here and say what should and shouldnt be stocked if we dont know thats shops customer base...(there are non internet people out there with 'huge' systems that need stock).... Although many responsible staff do enquire as to where the fish etc is going and pass on advice, they have no way of knowing if your telling the truth, nor if youve made a glaringly stupid omission in relation to what else its going in with...neither do they 'know' your fish like you do...do you have a placid Niger trigger in there, or is it a raving phsyco...only 'you' will know that, based on your experience of that particular fish. So all in all the shop cant realisticly give you any info, exept about the specific fish your looking at and how big it may grow...nothing more, nothing less.. and its up to the buyer to ask such a basic and common sense question.
All to often in this hobby, the hobbyists themselves are far too willing to pass the buck of responsibility onto the shop as an excuse for their own ignorance and lazyness when it comes to learning, before buying...
Such a simple, logical, and ethicly common sense practice, and one that should be enforced to the full imo..
regards and sorry if that offends anyone..
Si.
Swimmingwiththefishes
17-02-08, 14:09
I think the onus is on the buyer and part of that is to avoid lfs's that can't tell me more than basic info on a fish.
I think good lfs's reseach or already know alot about the animals they sell.
If they aren't interested to find out what that strange fish they've just got in needs to survive then maybe they have no passion for what they do.
I'm lucky to have a few lfs's round here with knowledgable staff but i do my research before cross referencing with them.
Without doubt it is my final responsiblity what happens to the animals i choose to keep and i can't blame a lfs that doesn't care what they sell or who to.
Cheers Alan
It's not often I disagree with you Simon but I don't see how you can put total responsibility with the buyer. If I go into a fish shop and see a tang/cowfish/shark etc for sale and buy it for my nano then it's my fault for buying a fish that's unsuitable.
However if I tell the retailer that I have a nano tank and ask if it's suitable then the onus falls on him to answer truthfully (even if it'sonly to they say they don't know).
If the retailer gives incorrect advice then it is their responsibility as they have misrepresented the product in order to induce a sale.
Thids is covered under the sale of goods trade descriptions acts.
I think it should be the seller. He needs to make sure there is right level of equipment to maintain the animal. I have been in this industry for over 35 years and I have see all sorts of horrors, I have even see Clown fish being sold to people that do not know they need salt water, things like this mostly due to weekend children/untrained staff working in shops. In a shop the person selling needs to have a two way conversation to assess the customer have the right enviromnet, and if these question are not asked, frankly I would not trust the knowledge of the person selling the livestock. Im sure there are many on this forum that have talked to their LFS and been advise AGAINST buying something as it not suitable.
In some countries the gold fish bowl is illegal for some good reasons, gold fish can and should live 10-20 years, not many do in bowl
I SURE THIS WILL BE A HOT TOPIC...
Both imo But more to the wholesaler.... Why should anybody just be able to walk into a shop and purchase fish like Mandarins/Copperbands ... and tangs without even a raised eyebrow to where they are headed, fair enough people should research fish and most internet uses might be more switched on.
But Not everybody gives a shi! about livestock
and there's many lazy types that will have enough money to experiment with livestock and .. Ive heard it before ''its only a 14 quid fish''
Sye Davies
17-02-08, 20:21
Totally the responsibility of the buyer imo..
If you cant be botherd to read up on the animal, you shouldnt be buying it in the first place...Thats just ethicly and morally wrong husbandry..and theres absolutely no excuse for it..
99% of shops have books that you can look through to find more info...even if not for sale, all shops have a few ID books that they use for everyday use...and it takes just two seconds to ask, and a few minuits of reading....
Absolute worst case, you put a deposit down, go away, research and then go back.
The shop is there to supply hobbyists of 'all' types, ie those with huge tanks, to those with nanos so its not even up to us to sit here and say what should and shouldnt be stocked if we dont know thats shops customer base...(there are non internet people out there with 'huge' systems that need stock).... Although many responsible staff do enquire as to where the fish etc is going and pass on advice, they have no way of knowing if your telling the truth, nor if youve made a glaringly stupid omission in relation to what else its going in with...neither do they 'know' your fish like you do...do you have a placid Niger trigger in there, or is it a raving phsyco...only 'you' will know that, based on your experience of that particular fish. So all in all the shop cant realisticly give you any info, exept about the specific fish your looking at and how big it may grow...nothing more, nothing less.. and its up to the buyer to ask such a basic and common sense question.
All to often in this hobby, the hobbyists themselves are far too willing to pass the buck of responsibility onto the shop as an excuse for their own ignorance and lazyness when it comes to learning, before buying...
Such a simple, logical, and ethicly common sense practice, and one that should be enforced to the full imo..
regards and sorry if that offends anyone..
Si.
one of the best posts i have read about such a subject in a long time.:)
I dont just research the fish but research the fish shop too. I use three LFS's for different stuff. If I visit a new one and the staff are not prepared to spend time talking to me and learning about my system and experiance then I tend not to buy. I also found asking questions I already know the answer to a useful tool in sorting out those that will sell anything to anybody from those that actually care about there stock as well as their customers needs.
In general I will buy on my third visit to a new shop, giving me a chance to keep an eye on their standards.
The onus falls on us, the consumer not only with fish but on everything we buy, if I think a shops customer service and level of care isn't up to scratch I vote with my feet and walk out, having spent all my working life dealing with the public in various positions I understand customer care and the same goes for my wife.
If all the shop owner... and this goes for all shops... not just aquariums cares about is an instant profit then they are very short sighted, good service = repeat business = longevity of business throught the best form of advertising.... word of mouth.
Do your research both online and in the real world, decide what you want to buy and more importantly who you want to buy it off.
simon garratt
18-02-08, 00:17
It's not often I disagree with you Simon but I don't see how you can put total responsibility with the buyer. If I go into a fish shop and see a tang/cowfish/shark etc for sale and buy it for my nano then it's my fault for buying a fish that's unsuitable.
However if I tell the retailer that I have a nano tank and ask if it's suitable then the onus falls on him to answer truthfully (even if it'sonly to they say they don't know).
If the retailer gives incorrect advice then it is their responsibility as they have misrepresented the product in order to induce a sale.
Thids is covered under the sale of goods trade descriptions acts.
Bradden, if you read my post again, you will notice we are talking two 'different' topics.
Im talking about the responsibilty of reasearching prior to purchase, You are talking the 'accuracy' of information given, the latter of which i have no argument with.
'If' an LFS is 'asked' to give advice, then yes, that advice should be as accurate as 'reasonably' possible, I agree 100%,. Alas, nobody can give a 'diffinative' answer on how any fish is going to behave in the company of others, certainly not an LFS owner who 'the vast majority of time' only sees how certain fish behave in the relatively alien and stressfull world of the LFS tank.
What i cant understand is 'why' people expect an LFS owner or staff to have an 'indepth' knowledge of each and every species, They certainly havent kept them all (have any of us?), so why should we expect that kind of all encompassing knowledge just becouse they work with them every day. The marine trade at present imports over 1000 species and its expanding annually. I've kept marines for well over 20 yrs, i can remember and name (by latin name) around 2-300Sp of fish and around 200sp of invertibrates. but to be honest im one of the very very lucky ones who has virtually a photographic memory for info thrown at me relating to aquatic life. I'm by no means the norm by any standards.. So why should we expect an lfs owner to be any the wiser just becouse they own a shop, and why should we expect the rest of the staff to be any better...sorry thats just ridiculous. What people are expecting, is someone who knows every species of fish they have on display like some Phd qulified marine biologist, whilst at the same time not wanting to pay the kind of money for stock that would cover a profit margin big enough to pay a Phd qualified member of staffs wages...
Maybe if we didnt spend so much time on forums bitching and whining about the cost of everything, shouting 'rip off LFS' at every given oportunity and actually got our moth eaten wallets out on occasions and were willing to pay a decent price instead of running off to ebay to save 20p, some of these LFs would at least make enough money to fund some staff training at Sparsholt or the like (some infact do, not that they ever get any regognition for it...when was the last time an LFS was 'commended' on here for showing commitment beyond the norm...? Never, unless it was to thank them for a free coffee...)
....................
RO man was right, this whole subject is a very thorny one if we are going to stray off the origional topic of ' the responsibility to research prior to purchase'.
Personnaly, I find this ever growing need to pick holes in the very people who get us going in this hobby, an increasingly annoying trend with the internet reefing community at large. Over the last few years ive come to believe that the online community on all too many occasions has been intent on voicing opinion regardless of any damaging effects it may have and often with little to no practicle experience of the other side of the counter to justify that argument, but when faced with the oportunity to actually do some good, repeatedly fails to get up of its preverbial arse and rise to the challenge in any significant numbers.
Positive and encoraging, or negative and self destructive. in recent years ive seen a growing shift towards the latter unfortunately..
Sorry if that offends anyone, but I make no appologies for making that comment.
regards
Si.
Good points .. As this is a poll without a poll maybe run a proper one asking
The forum do they research fish before buying.
Obviously people would have to answer honestly and think about each fish theyve bought.
So you would need more than 3 choices .... before you ask ive never sussed out of to run one yet .. not being lazy
Sye Davies
18-02-08, 07:25
Bradden, if you read my post again, you will notice we are talking two 'different' topics.
Im talking about the responsibilty of reasearching prior to purchase, You are talking the 'accuracy' of information given, the latter of which i have no argument with.
'If' an LFS is 'asked' to give advice, then yes, that advice should be as accurate as 'reasonably' possible, I agree 100%,. Alas, nobody can give a 'diffinative' answer on how any fish is going to behave in the company of others, certainly not an LFS owner who 'the vast majority of time' only sees how certain fish behave in the relatively alien and stressfull world of the LFS tank.
What i cant understand is 'why' people expect an LFS owner or staff to have an 'indepth' knowledge of each and every species, They certainly havent kept them all (have any of us?), so why should we expect that kind of all encompassing knowledge just becouse they work with them every day. The marine trade at present imports over 1000 species and its expanding annually. I've kept marines for well over 20 yrs, i can remember and name (by latin name) around 2-300Sp of fish and around 200sp of invertibrates. but to be honest im one of the very very lucky ones who has virtually a photographic memory for info thrown at me relating to aquatic life. I'm by no means the norm by any standards.. So why should we expect an lfs owner to be any the wiser just becouse they own a shop, and why should we expect the rest of the staff to be any better...sorry thats just ridiculous. What people are expecting, is someone who knows every species of fish they have on display like some Phd qulified marine biologist, whilst at the same time not wanting to pay the kind of money for stock that would cover a profit margin big enough to pay a Phd qualified member of staffs wages...
Maybe if we didnt spend so much time on forums bitching and whining about the cost of everything, shouting 'rip off LFS' at every given oportunity and actually got our moth eaten wallets out on occasions and were willing to pay a decent price instead of running off to ebay to save 20p, some of these LFs would at least make enough money to fund some staff training at Sparsholt or the like (some infact do, not that they ever get any regognition for it...when was the last time an LFS was 'commended' on here for showing commitment beyond the norm...? Never, unless it was to thank them for a free coffee...)
....................
RO man was right, this whole subject is a very thorny one if we are going to stray off the origional topic of ' the responsibility to research prior to purchase'.
Personnaly, I find this ever growing need to pick holes in the very people who get us going in this hobby, an increasingly annoying trend with the internet reefing community at large. Over the last few years ive come to believe that the online community on all too many occasions has been intent on voicing opinion regardless of any damaging effects it may have and often with little to no practicle experience of the other side of the counter to justify that argument, but when faced with the oportunity to actually do some good, repeatedly fails to get up of its preverbial arse and rise to the challenge in any significant numbers.
Positive and encoraging, or negative and self destructive. in recent years ive seen a growing shift towards the latter unfortunately..
Sorry if that offends anyone, but I make no appologies for making that comment.
regards
Si.
we may not agree with fish sizes in the aquarium Si but i cannot put these comments any better myself.
If people continue to buy dry goods from internet only sites then expect the price of fish to increase drastically to compensate for the LFS losses.
We all expect a nice selection of fish and corals to choose from when we visit a shop but buy our dry goods from the internet to save a tenner.:confused:
simon garratt
18-02-08, 10:55
If people continue to buy dry goods from internet only sites then expect the price of fish to increase drastically to compensate for the LFS losses.
We all expect a nice selection of fish and corals to choose from when we visit a shop but buy our dry goods from the internet to save a tenner.:confused:
very true.
I always remember an argument/discussion on here some time ago where people were discussing how LFS's could improve. Made me laugh at the time, becouse every idea that was put forward involved the LFS giving away more for free. The best one, was that the LFS should print off advice sheets to cover each species they sell as a free service. Very good in theory, but who pays for the paper, time, initial It equipment, etc etc..
when i made comment that 99% of LFS allready provide this service in the way of 'books' that you can 'buy'.....low and behold, it fell on deaf ears...
no surprise there...and just goes to show the mentality at hand.. Whilst the LFS is expected to do all the work for us and show proffesionalism and willingness beyond reproach, why then are we so 'unwilling' to take on the responsibility ourselves and hold our hands up as the 'main' responsible party..
Regardless of whatever excuses are put up....When you walk into a shop to buy fish etc, 'you' have the responsibility of making sure you have the facilities to keep that animal in the best of care, and its up to 'you' to source the relevant information by whatever means available...Buying a fish isnt like buying a car where you have a spec sheet that shows what that car does 'in all cases'...and fish dont come off a production line all the same, so why is an LFS owner expected to get it right all the time and know the ins and outs of a 1000+ different lines, compared to a car salesman who has a set range he is familiar with and can give accurate advice about..
regards
Si.
when i worked for a certain large chain of aquatic retailers we were told to ask the customer basic questions about their system then if the fish was not suitable for it ie tangs in a nano then we would be able to tell them straight away. we were also told that if we didnt know to just say so instead of making up an answer to get a sale. i turned down quite a few sales as i wasnt sure on how well the fish would cope or be looked after in a certain system. surely honesty on both sides is the best option.
Ed
I posed this question purely on the basis of some threads i have read on here that i thought were absolute horror stories ( my opinion ) or would eventually turn into them. My high horse is not that high and i did not aim at anyone Trade or private, But just as a thought provoking exercise. I knew it would get intense and maybe thats what it needs / maybe not. Personaly i think the trade do on the whole a great job, and have nothing but praise for them. Have only been into marines for 12mths or so and have found lots of good advice from my local fish shop. The owner even designed my sump for me - for FREE. This man will get my repeated custom - and i wont insult his intelligence by going into his shop and asking how big does that get ? What size tank is needed for that ? Frankly i would be embarassed. He has even talked me out of certain fish i asked about because im not experieced enough and they are just plain difficult to keep well. This i understand. I think people sometimes, just need to be realistic about what they can keep and what they cant. There is plenty of time to create that dream tank ( if the Mrs lets you ) and designed properly or around your chosen subjects works well. I would imagine this would give you more pleasure in the long run, knowing you did it right.
poll added for SPS nut, hope the questions are what you were thinking of, let me know if not.
have deliberately ensured that all votes cast can not be traced so don't be shy, and only vote 100% honestly.
1 vote per member.
Good poll this one, just to throw another curve ball into the mix, what would people's reactions be if before you purchased a fish, the Lfs insisted in a sample of water from your tank. Now this would save a lot of deaths imo, as on several occasions i have been stood in my Lfs listening to people who ask " If we chuck in some salt can we take that fish away?".
Now obviously, the longer you use the Lfs then the greater the trust and the more he/she gets to know your system then the water samples don't become a requirement.
I'd for one quite happily do this as its shows i have nothing to hide and have the care and welfare of the fish at heart and, my tank husbandry is up to the standards required for marines in general.
Back to the fish question I always research now and have often left my number with the Lfs for a specific breed of coral or fish.
simon garratt
18-02-08, 14:31
Interesting idea Iain, but not practicle imo. I doubt many LFS have the time to sit there and check every buyers water on a hectic saterday. and would those buying fish want to stump up the costs of the test?
regards
Si.
I, in all honesty - believe that both are to some extent responsible :eek:
Whilst I agree we all should research our possible fish purchases as far as we can - this is a given.
There is also an element that the LFS should understand what our new purchase is going into, and refuse a sale if they have taken the time to ask the prospective purchaser what their system is etc. :)
Most of us seem to stay with around 2 - 3 LFS we use, this will make it easier to get to know the LFS (and vice versa) - then there should be a mutual understanding of the set ups we have.
Are we now saying (from reading the posts here), that we are not to use the LFS as a point of research :confused:
This I find somewhat missleading - in that we all start our hobbies with purchasing from an LFS - where they give us knowledge to go away and set up our new tank. We take their advice here, but now we are saying (some of us anyway) - that it is then down to the purchaser to ensure he knows all - through books alone :confused:
What about the other side of this coin - the one where, someone with an established tank, goes into an LFs and buys quite a few corals with some fish - Not one question was asked by the LFs, are we saying this is ok - it is all the responsibility of the purchaser :eek:
The way I purchase my inhabitants - is to read as much as possible, but I will also go by advice given from a reputable LFS, they should (imo) be able to give you advice on stock they have purchased - afterall:
They are the ones that have just bought the species, added it into their shop system, feed it, care for it etc - so should be able to give it the correct standards / feeding etc, then pass this knowledge over to you the purchaser - or are we saying that the rules do not apply to them now - it's only held short time so they don't need to know how to look after it :whistling:
As you can see - I feel this is a double edged sword, Yes there is an onus on the purchaser (far greater than on the LFS) - but there is also an onus on the LFS -they bought the species in the first place.
Now I am off to get my flack jacket :)
What is Research? ...Sounds like a daft question but how do you define research, Generally i always go for fish compatibility and sps nipping size etc .
Not really a great amount to look into, Often books you buy always contradict
another authors words so often in many cases who can you really trust.
Take the copperband some say they nip corals others dont, the list is endless
I dont know about anyone else but too much reading can be as off putting
as it is helpful, and often leads the buyer left thinking ... sod it I'll buy it and see .. Interesting to see the most popular cat atm is the 2nd one down
It seems when we all start we just buy fish and learn from our own mistakes/experiences .. and as some of us progress to newer tanks will fill them with trusted fish that have been successful with in the past.
Ive yet to meet anybody who works in a shop or a seasoned reefer .. That knows much about fish themselves without reffering to books, Which leads us back to contradictions and mostly guess work.
It would be interesting to know how many different types of fish we have all kept over time ... and if a giant poll was conducted i bet it would just be the common ones that reefers keep buying and coming back to ...
Tbh i dont see why shops cant give out a few fact sheets of the most common fish we buy .. with a few facts about them, Take a look at members tanks and count how many have the same fish.
Sye Davies
18-02-08, 15:27
I, in all honesty - believe that both are to some extent responsible :eek:
Whilst I agree we all should research our possible fish purchases as far as we can - this is a given.
There is also an element that the LFS should understand what our new purchase is going into, and refuse a sale if they have taken the time to ask the prospective purchaser what their system is etc. :)
Most of us seem to stay with around 2 - 3 LFS we use, this will make it easier to get to know the LFS (and vice versa) - then there should be a mutual understanding of the set ups we have.
Are we now saying (from reading the posts here), that we are not to use the LFS as a point of research :confused:
This I find somewhat missleading - in that we all start our hobbies with purchasing from an LFS - where they give us knowledge to go away and set up our new tank. We take their advice here, but now we are saying (some of us anyway) - that it is then down to the purchaser to ensure he knows all - through books alone :confused:
What about the other side of this coin - the one where, someone with an established tank, goes into an LFs and buys quite a few corals with some fish - Not one question was asked by the LFs, are we saying this is ok - it is all the responsibility of the purchaser :eek:
The way I purchase my inhabitants - is to read as much as possible, but I will also go by advice given from a reputable LFS, they should (imo) be able to give you advice on stock they have purchased - afterall:
They are the ones that have just bought the species, added it into their shop system, feed it, care for it etc - so should be able to give it the correct standards / feeding etc, then pass this knowledge over to you the purchaser - or are we saying that the rules do not apply to them now - it's only held short time so they don't need to know how to look after it :whistling:
As you can see - I feel this is a double edged sword, Yes there is an onus on the purchaser (far greater than on the LFS) - but there is also an onus on the LFS -they bought the species in the first place.
Now I am off to get my flack jacket :)
totally agree with your points.
however an awful lot of people expect shop owners and staff to be complete mind readers. Know the answer to any question immediatly and if something goes wrong accept full responsibility. Not fair in my book. Im not saying it happens on this board but i read soooo many posts from people expecting this and that from shops and slating them openly for things which are often the aquarists fault. They have never worked in a shop.....definatly never run one and certainly never owned one. Its hard work........so many things to keep on top of and the good ones who do provide info sheets. ask questions about your tank and advise as best they can should be applauded......better still supported.............however people still scour the net to save a tenner:confused:
at the end of the day we hobbyists should take responsibility as well. We cant have our cake and eat it.
mmmmm cake:D
totally agree with your points.
however an awful lot of people expect shop owners and staff to be complete mind readers. Know the answer to any question immediatly and if something goes wrong accept full responsibility. Not fair in my book. Im not saying it happens on this board but i read soooo many posts from people expecting this and that from shops and slating them openly for things which are often the aquarists fault. They have never worked in a shop.....definatly never run one and certainly never owned one. Its hard work........so many things to keep on top of and the good ones who do provide info sheets. ask questions about your tank and advise as best they can should be applauded......better still supported.............however people still scour the net to save a tenner:confused:
at the end of the day we hobbyists should take responsibility as well. We cant have our cake and eat it.
mmmmm cake:D
Hence why I for one feel it should be split - 80% purchaser - 20% LFS. We as purchasers have an outright responsibility - but so does the LFs who has been looking after the stock at their premises.
I do not as a rule, tend to buy from the 'TinterWeb' - as for me, it is a real PITA to return things if they go wrong :eek:.
I for one prefer to buy from the FS - to which I fully support (to a point). Classic example for me is Bulbs - I bought off tinterweb - got the bulbs, one was duff, so I landed up losing my money coz it was too much hassle to send it back. Moral of the story for me here - stick with LFS :)
Reading some of the comments on this thread so far - I do some of the things mentioned - read books (agreed they can be conflicting), read the LFS books (they are always available if you ask) - and talk with the LFS itself.
I for one think we both have a valuable part to play here - not just the Purchaser :p
I also found books can not tell you how something will behave in our tanks - Fish are living species, to which they don't do what is written on the tin :D
Apart from books etc that we are asked to research and some of them contradict one idea to another so can be confusing as who to rely on, there is nothing better than to ask on any forum on the internet that now almost the whole population have one that we can get better information from all the experience fishkeeper and share them and respect them to get help in researching all about the fish we would like,coral invertebrates etc. Then if you have a friendly lfs you go to buy what ever you want that you can share that info you've learned so more knowledge is spread around. There alway 2 side to the story blaming one or the other where as we should share that knowledge so it benifit for both side and keep both happy. After all we are all still learning. I've been to lfs where I know my stuff having read or got info from fish forum and seen the lfs guy are inexperience or even experience owner who were glad that I share what I've learned and have said they would look up to get more info for themselves. Hope I've make sense here.
Tony
Ok .. you're right again Mr G. I have to agree with you that the responsibility is on the buyer to research. I was answering a different question to be honest.
I hate it when you're right. :)
Dr Devious
19-02-08, 18:55
Totally the responsibility of the buyer imo..
The buyer has a duty of care to his/her purchase and should do the necessary research to ensure he/she can provide the requiste living conditions.
If this poll is acurate and we've all been honest, i think this salty hobby im getting into is looking very good indeed.
Totally the responsibility of the buyer imo..
If you cant be botherd to read up on the animal, you shouldnt be buying it in the first place...Thats just ethicly and morally wrong husbandry..and theres absolutely no excuse for it..
99% of shops have books that you can look through to find more info...even if not for sale, all shops have a few ID books that they use for everyday use...and it takes just two seconds to ask, and a few minuits of reading....
Absolute worst case, you put a deposit down, go away, research and then go back.
The shop is there to supply hobbyists of 'all' types, ie those with huge tanks, to those with nanos so its not even up to us to sit here and say what should and shouldnt be stocked if we dont know thats shops customer base...(there are non internet people out there with 'huge' systems that need stock).... Although many responsible staff do enquire as to where the fish etc is going and pass on advice, they have no way of knowing if your telling the truth, nor if youve made a glaringly stupid omission in relation to what else its going in with...neither do they 'know' your fish like you do...do you have a placid Niger trigger in there, or is it a raving phsyco...only 'you' will know that, based on your experience of that particular fish. So all in all the shop cant realisticly give you any info, exept about the specific fish your looking at and how big it may grow...nothing more, nothing less.. and its up to the buyer to ask such a basic and common sense question.
All to often in this hobby, the hobbyists themselves are far too willing to pass the buck of responsibility onto the shop as an excuse for their own ignorance and lazyness when it comes to learning, before buying...
Such a simple, logical, and ethicly common sense practice, and one that should be enforced to the full imo..
regards and sorry if that offends anyone..
Si.
One of the most sensible posts I've read on this forum so far.
I've only recently started reefing, my comment on this subject is i've spent more time chatting and asking questions and making friends in STM and on here than is probably normal!!!!!
Also i've spent more on testing kit, books and quality equipment than all my current stock.........and I have only ONE fish all 2cm of joy he is too.
I think it's very important to make ourselves fully aware by all means at out disposal, our fish shops and internet/reading.
I'm looking forward to learning and learning.:cool:
SALTY WALTER
25-02-08, 10:01
This is why I choose to support my LFS and buy all my equipment in store rather than on line. He offers me good advice and quality livestock!
Yep you must support your LFS! Find a good one and be loyal... Too many good shops have closed or gone downhill in recent times due to the mail order boom... Especially 'dry' goods... I also think it's completely the buyers responsibility... I would go so far to say that the choice of fish should be, ideally, made when PLANNING the system... Not exact specific species but certainly families with 'traits' such as a desire for an Anthias shoal or a Damsel community or Tang mixing... Aquascaping should take into account this planned stocking as should filtration technique... I must admit in the early days of my marine keeping we didn't have the choice of fish around today and for the first few years I stuck to the damsel/clown line for safety...
I am constantly bewildered on UR at the amount of questions asked not just on livestock but on basic basic chemistry and the like by people who have already set-up and are running... When I first started on Marines the only book I found was a 'ladybird' type one that more or less advocated FW techniques with a more powerful airpump and an extra bulb... That was it! Nowadays there is more reading choice and no excuses for research especially with the internet... It really is all down to the buyer...
But... Do you really blame the newbie/ignorant buyer or Disney/Pixar for Nemo...:whistling:
Just going to chuck my 2p worth in.
I purchase all my live stock (bar a few frags) from a lfs and most of my dry goods from the web. I understand that if a lfs has less sales in terms of dry goods they will have to inflate the cost of their wet goods (fish etc....)
Unfortunately the e-commerce aspect of fish keeping is powerful and presents a danger to the local shop, in the same way that it has damaged the high street. However this is progress and we are in a digital age where products and services are simply a click away, people demand the ability to acquire good at the click of a button after all.
I wonder if the increased costings of the wet goods in lfs will encourage people to think twice before purchasing a species. I for one always double check that I can support the fish that I am buying for a few reasons.
1) I don't see the point of keeping a pet and not looking after it properly
2) I can not afford to be dishing out money every month to replace a fish that has died through fault of my own.
I am the first to admit that on-line prices are great until you add the postage and packing on top, this normally leaves you now more than a couple of pounds better off. In this instance I feel you may as well pop down to the local shop and spend the extra dollar.
But i will not be popping down to the lfs to buy products that I can simply pick up cheaper on line. I am sorry if it makes things difficult for the lfs, but to be honest the onus is on them to develop a web presence to go with the bricks and mortar.
As for the responsibility aspect, I feel that the owner should try and gain a general insight into the species that he/she is interested in. Once they get to the shop they can then address any queries with the staff who should (we hope) be able to answer or at least find out the answer for the customer.
2p input over..
:)
richunderwater
27-02-08, 13:34
i quite agree the seller should at least try to ensure the stock goes to a suitable home, even if it is just out of self interest - no one wants to give the impression their stock is of poor quality.
as a newby to the hobby i have made ill advised purchases in the past, as i have not always known the right questions to ask, even though i have made all resonable attempts at researching the topic and some of the staff at the shops i have used will literally sell you anything; sometimes admitting stock has an 'iffy' survival rating - cleaner wrasse for example (though i feel they should be left on the reef and never sold, but thats another debate).
i feel that dealers who sell to those who cannot keep livestock alive are just as complicit in the demise of said fish/invert as the well meaning punter who joyfully takes home his new fish to watch it wither away or eat everything else in the tank. a few questions from a dealer could help people from making the wrong decisions for everyone's benefit and might leave some of the trickier critters to those of you who can keep them or even better leave 'em on the reef.
thats my view anyway
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