View Full Version : 'Alarming' plight of coral reefs - What would you do to stop it?
dxmarinefish
10-07-08, 20:47
Please read this before replying to this post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7498502.stm
We are all contributing to this, whether we keep aquariums or not. The point is not to lay blame but to ask the following questions:-
1) If the corals of the world reached a point where they faced certain extinction (as in now???) would you continue with this hobby?
2) Do you think our hobby, if it leads to better knowledge in farmed propagation of corals could somehow make a contribution to saving our coral reefs?
3) Would you commit to acquiring only Farmed corals/fish, or sustainably wild harvested corals/fish?, even if it meant not having that dream coral/fish, and paying more?
4) What steps would you take to encourage awareness of this situation and the reduction of the damage to coral reefs?
Please understand that natural global disasters also contribute to this mess, but human activity is far more destructive, and our continual exploitation meas that coral reefs do not have the time to recover enough to sustain their existence.
:thanks:
to many subject like this for one day...i need to sleep.. what are you guys trying to do to me here
GSXRnutter
10-07-08, 21:25
makes for some stark reading.
lawrence cope
10-07-08, 21:42
In answer to your questions
1) I would continue to keep corals but only ones im defenately sure that i could care for! I wouldnt even consider trying to keep sps as so far all my attempts at keeping them go down the pan. My reason for this is the ones i do keep i could frag and pass ono others in the hobby to keep corals alive in tanks if they cant be kept in seas.
2) Yes i believeit could but if the sea is turning acidic because of co2 it could already be too late:(
3) Yes i would commit to buying only farmed corals and fish if it meant the natural reefs would survive. If it meant never owning a certain fish or coral so be it. To be honest id save some money to see it in the wild!
4) I dont know what i personally could do to help reduce the damage to the coral reefs. If i knew of anything i could do i would do it happily as long as it didnt mean giving the government more money in taxes for something they cant change no matter how much money they have because the UK have such a small impact on a global scale anyway!
what about all the funds that collected corals put back into the region they are collected from ? what about all the jobs that are associated with the collection of stocks, what about the education that decent import centers are doing for the areas.
its the lack of education that causes the most damage imo.
rich_tilbury
10-07-08, 22:08
Alex from ZSL spoke to us North London reefers and showed us his "behind the scenes" coral collection when we went to ZSL a few months back. He is a good guy. A mine of very useful information.
1) I try to buy frags or "second hand" LR, corals and fish where possible.
2) Yes, if not directly, by our evangelising what we have learned and are passionate about.
3) I made a pact with myself to keep hardy and common fish (and/or to buy second hand!)
4) Evangelising - especially to kids. Talk to local schools about going in and talking about these things - if you feel brave enough. Or if not offer to help with preparing a project.
Teachers may find it useful, but expect there to be some can't be botheredness, it tends to be down to the teacher. I did something on art history last year which went down really well - the kids remember the class and still come and talk to me. Local cubs might be interested. If you have a big tank arrange a "field trip".
My kids take macro algae to school, crab and shrimp moults, etc. If you are throwing out Xenia, how cool would it be for the kids to get some in a jam jar to look at and touch.
A little education goes a long way. If kids can relate to what a coral is then they are more likely to be intested in saving it.
We are all contributing to this, whether we keep aquariums or not. The point is not to lay blame but to ask the following questions:-
1) If the corals of the world reached a point where they faced certain extinction (as in now???) would you continue with this hobby?
Yes - captivity may be the only way to safeguard some species (due to oceanic conditions changing & pollution), and popularity among reefers will help propagate them (or encourage propagation by suppliers)
2) Do you think our hobby, if it leads to better knowledge in farmed propagation of corals could somehow make a contribution to saving our coral reefs?
Yes - how common would budgies be worldwide if there were no budgie enthusiasts? They'd be pretty obscure outside their home country. Same goes for corals/fish species - if people want to keep them, and it's possible, they will be kept. And if they can be kept, even if they go extinct in the wild, ultimately it's possible to reintroduce them, if conditions become suitable.
3) Would you commit to acquiring only Farmed corals/fish, or sustainably wild harvested corals/fish?, even if it meant not having that dream coral/fish, and paying more?
Yes - already do, in general - don't think I've got anything endangered, anyway! Have mainly bought propagated frags and common, hardy fish.
4) What steps would you take to encourage awareness of this situation and the reduction of the damage to coral reefs?
Not really much the average person can do.
Been watching this stuff over and over again on news24 all night at work!:sleepy:... and boring my colleague witless by pointing out the different corals and fish and whether I'd got them, planned to get them etc:D
Much to my partner's annoyance, only one of about 50 corals in my tank is complete.. the rest were all 'rescued' from under rock, LR tanks or guys giving up tanks/corals...
They eventually grow back and can look good, but not in a hurry.
As for nature.. it's not all the human's fault. Been diving in the Maldives last November after they had their worst monsoon and litterally half the island's corals were gone, dead, under sand.
Yes, I would still keep corals, but if the 'wild reefs' go.. why can't we export frags, corals to the reefs? Most of us keeping corals have the odd frags/corals on a rather regular basis to donate to reefs or if a public aquarium or for that matter anyone are ever thinking of growing for reseeding the reefs.. we can export back
dxmarinefish
11-07-08, 12:27
Thank you all for your comments.
Farmed corals/fish are defo the way to go, but how cost effective it will be to be run privately I dont know. Also some aquarist just dont have the patience of maturing their tanks from Frags, wanting instant beauty.
Eco-friendly harvest is also a positive step, but it still means that the livestock is exposed to the elements and the pollutants that are causing some of the decline.
As for returning corals/livestock to the wild, i believe if it is done properly it is viable. But the risk of introducing alien species to environments not meant for them can be devastating to the indigenous wild life. For this approach to be effective it will need to be controlled by a local & international body, and while local groups might be more willing to collect donations and make sure they are fit for re-introduction to the proper ecosystem, i doubt we will get much corporation from international bodies, considering the politics that goes with it.
But you never know.
I think we need to look at the timescale here - within 50 to 100 years a certain amount of coral reefs will be gone. Yep fine we are going through the sixth or seventh mass extinction on the planet - this is being increased by human activity which are destroying the reefs directly, indirectly by our all of our behaivour of using too many resources in very wasteful ways, taking holidays, keeping reef tanks, using cars, burning fossil fuels, and many many other activities which WILL destroy the reefs and other underwater habitats.
It is very depressing to hear of these predictions and you need to look on the bright side of things - examples of restoring habitats do exist look at the thames over the past 100 years it has come through being an open sewer to one of the cleanest river systems in the developed world so much so that seahorses and other species of fish are returning to the thames estuary.
We all know what needs to be done to restore habitats and hoepfully we will see steps to improve what we have left - reef farming, protection of natural reefs with local education for local collectors etc hopefully we will turn the corner and maybe we can conserve what fragments are left and hopefully the reefs may become more resilient to the changing climate.
I think people need to ask themselves exactly where corals come from what benefit has actually filtered down to the local communities which collect the corals or farm them - does this actually happen and why dont LFS scream about this in their shipments - as it would be a selling point wouldnt it? - I often go into my LFS and ask how many captive bred fish do you have? do you have aquacultured corals, do you have MAC acredited stock? - they do fob me off with their stories about going out to the far flun places and try to convince me that the stock they are selling are doing some good - but how can you be sure?
Keeping hardy species and being patient is the key - species which need less light and survive better would make the hobby more sustainable. I am planning to try hardy SPS frags in my system and I am trying to source MAC stock if I want some new fish. I am also looking for 2nd hand rock, fish and other livestock.
New reefers should be encouraged to look for captive bred fish and fragged corals as much as possible.
I am going to use LED lighting with T5's to help reduce the cost of running the tank - I am considering softies and LPS with a few SPS -
I remember my LFS tried to inform me that reef keepers were conservationists - this was from good old David Bellamy who was speaking to a reef group - I just thought what aload of tosh - we are making up reasons why our hobby should remain as it is - apparently we are doing this to help conserve the reefs by keeping corals going in artificial environments so that maybe we can restock the seas with corals from our tanks
There is no way that would occur in any meaningful way that the corals can be restored in this way - we need to address the problems at source - reducing mining, deforestation, agriculture, and other human activities in sensitive areas to try and reduce the impact on reefs now so that they are better equipped to deal with the changing climate........
Blimey I am sorry for going on so much and I hope that some of this makes sense (it probably dosent)
I would like to know from the sponsors exactly what benefits do their imports give to local communities - lets see whether this argument actually holds water!
J
keith hellyar
11-07-08, 18:29
Reefkeeping is immoral end of story. I keep them because I'm obsessed with the hobby. I keep them because I believe hobbyist activity is not the reason for the decline in coral reefs.
I understand that trying a more "greener" approach to reefkeeping helps to ease our concience a little but you run the risk of killing the corals in your posession (sps) if you think you can use low wattage led's for lighting.
My way of easing my conscience is to try and keep my livestock in the best possible conditions for them to thrive. Unfortunately that is getting more and more expensive.
Keith
tbh i fail to see the difference between 2nd hand liverock and fresh comes from the same place
also before going all green and tank bred on use you might want to delete the stock list on you sig because i can only see two that might be tank bred lol
whats going on is totaly natural poprulation growth until the number cant be sustaied and the envoimment suffers then an ice age populations are wiped out then it all happens all over again
natural population change
The obvious thing that strikes me is that we should NOT be obsessed with only taking easy species etc
It would appear that coral reefs will be extinct in the not too distant future.
Surely it makes more sense to get as many species as possible into peoples tanks and surviving while they are not extinct?
dxmarinefish
11-07-08, 20:48
Excellent views Cranners, thanks for contributing.
here is an interesting article I think we should all read.
http://www.artificialreefs.org/Articles/John%20Walch%20-%20The%20Marine%20Aquarium%20Hobby%20Helps%20Build %20Coral%20Reefs%20-%20December%206,%202004.htm
I believe any small but positive and beneficial contribution can help. Its a long road ahead for our corals/livestocks, but how long can they hold out?
I thought that royal grammas can be captive bred - in my sig the (WC Res) means wild caught but rescued from a tank break down - so taking this fish instead of an imported fish means that one less fish was taken from the wild. A drop in the ocean I think everyone would agree.
I admit I lapsed when I bought the leopard wrasse - this is the only fish which I have owned which is directly from the wild. I am not completely against wild caught fish - hence my investigations into MAC accredited lifestock.
I am confident that I can keep SPS under LEDs. The light output is greater than my RSM power compacts which put out 110w when new. I feel that there should be no problems with the hardier SPS species montipora, pavona and S. hysterix etc.
I currently have S. hysterix frags growing in my RSM 19inches below the lights - admittedly the coral frags are slightly brown but I get them to colour up when I move them to the top of the tank.
I am glad that people like keith admit that their motives for the hobby is their obsession with the hobby and keeping the animals in the best conditions possible - keiths tanks are an inspiration for me - such a wonderful tank
My challenge is to look at reducing the costs of running a tank and this will involve selecting species which are best suited to the conditions I will be creating. I am definitely stepping back to softies after seeing some fantastic softie tanks - with a few LPS and SPS but mainly softies definitely.
I really like gorgonians which I intend to frag frequently to make a 'bonsai' coral reef to try and keep the perspective in my tank.
Second hand rock is the same as rescuing a dog - i.e. you arent contributing further to the problem - and it is normally cheaper and can be heaving with life which is wnat you want for setting up a reef tank.
J
with regards to 2nd hand rock, i would argue that that leads to a worse environment for the livestock you are keeping due to old tank syndrome occurring, the better choice imo would be eco rock that most shops should now be selling.
Ah didn't think of that - of course the sludge and dirt which is soaked up into the rock - which is a constant problem wouldnt a good rinse help though?
Do you currently sell eco rock at all Will?
Regards
J
i don't currently have space for rock vats, but that is about to change and eco rock is something we plan to do
infact neil harris tank was supplied by us and its totaly eco rock, and shows that a fantastic reef can be made with it
get a life i have shot people for less its a fish tank and i dont care as long as i am happy
Thats fresh and we applaude your honesty
J
Humans like to collect things, possess things, OWN things. Yes i'm sure there are some that at least think they care, but truth is, we'd leave it to nature if that were the case.
So in our hunger for ownership of a chunk of ocean imprisoned in a glass case, we can at least care for the occupants to the best of our ability.
If you truly love the world of beauty in the form of fish, corals, birds, rats or whatever, then let them be how nature would have it.
I keep fish, dog and cats, i live on this earth and am guilty of wanting to own some of it.
I'm human.
I agree with hermitz.
I think it’s funny when some people think they are doing fish/corals a favour by providing them with nice tanks to live in. The second you have removed them from their natural environment they will never carry out their only purpose in life, which is to continue their species in their natural habitat. Sounds horrible but they are as good as dead in that they will never carry out their reason for being. Even if they breed in captivity it is not what they have evolved over millions of years to do.
As long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t cause "too much cruelty" I don’t feel guilty because Ive decided that I do eat meat and use plenty of other animal based products etc.
I also think this hobby is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the destruction man is dose with fishing, polution, industry etc and at least it makes us aware and care about reefs. Everyone I know who isn’t into the hobby couldn’t care less and doesn’t even know what a coral really is.
Yep and eating meat is the biggest cause of global warming (or whatever you want to call it) on the planet. Our destructive habit of eating animal flesh in such large amounts each day in the west or developed world produces more pollution than all the worlds transport (planes, trains, cars, buses, lorries etc) put together! - just think save a reef eat less or no meat!
right where is my 1/4pounder and cheese hmmmm
I also think this hobby is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the destruction man is dose with fishing, polution, industry etc and at least it makes us aware and care about reefs. Everyone I know who isn’t into the hobby couldn’t care less and doesn’t even know what a coral really is.
That's a good point, those that keep fish and corals etc do seem to be far more aware, raising points of view etc on 1000's of forums and websites around the world.
whats going on is totaly natural poprulation growth until the number cant be sustaied and the envoimment suffers then an ice age populations are wiped out then it all happens all over again
natural population change
what experience in science or qualifications in science do you have nasotang? Because by saying its a "natural population change" you are in complete disagreement with every scientific institution in the world. Is this "population change" your own theory by any chance?
:applause:what experience in science or qualifications in science do you have nasotang? Because by saying its a "natural population change" you are in complete disagreement with every scientific institution in the world. Is this "population change" your own theory by any chance?:applause:
J
It does make you wonder what planet some people are living on....
More than 16,000 species worldwide are threatened with extinction, according to a 2007 report from the IUCN. One in four mammal species, one in eight bird species and one in three amphibian species are on the organisation's red list. They are also worried that the figures are far to conservative and extinctions could happen on average 100 times faster than predicted.
British eco systems have already started to change,for the worse. For example numbers of Puffins and other sea birds are down because the sand eels they feed on are moving further north as our seas get warmer.
1) If the corals of the world reached a point where they faced certain extinction (as in now???) would you continue with this hobby?
2) Do you think our hobby, if it leads to better knowledge in farmed propagation of corals could somehow make a contribution to saving our coral reefs?
3) Would you commit to acquiring only Farmed corals/fish, or sustainably wild harvested corals/fish?, even if it meant not having that dream coral/fish, and paying more?
4) What steps would you take to encourage awareness of this situation and the reduction of the damage to coral reefs?
1) Depends on where i was getting my stuff from
2) YES
3) DEFFINATELY
4) HAVE PHILLIPINO MEN BREAK INTO OUR HOUSES AND ROB STOCK FROM OUR OWNS TANKS.....
dxmarinefish
16-07-08, 12:20
Many thanks for all the comments and opinions.
It has proven to be very revealing how many of us view our world, and the responsibilities we may or may not feel towards its preservation.
Ignorance is not bliss, it never was.
We live in an enclosed eco system called Planet Earth, and we have proven, by mistake and by design (more by design??) that we completely underestimate our capacity for destruction, and for the most part support Governments that govern with there eyes closed to the plight of our natural world.
I hope that we can continue to make responsible opinions and comments on this thread, and remember that we are all responsible for our individual actions, and collectively we cannot ignore the impact our various lifestyles is having on an already over stretched planet.
Keep it coming... ;)
i think where possible we should give back as we take.
i think where possible we should give back as we take.
i think in the form of education and integrity then yes, but in a form of acutal livestock being put back i think its a bad idea, as it will lead at sometime to a disease be introduced and massive issues just look at what happened to lake victoria when someone had a bright idea :whistling::whistling:
I like the idea of second hand livestock and Live Rock. Guess being new to this hobby - I've just not seen either available. Would'nt it make sense to have a forum on this site where stock and Live rock could be requested/ sold/ traded.
Oops - Scratch that - I just found the classifieds.
i think in the form of education and integrity then yes, but in a form of acutal livestock being put back i think its a bad idea, as it will lead at sometime to a disease be introduced and massive issues just look at what happened to lake victoria when someone had a bright idea :whistling::whistling:
What happened?
Oh lets stock Nile perch for the purpose of suppling lots of nice fishies to the fish market OOPS they have eaten all the cichlids d'oh!!!!! One of the reasons why Lake Victora Cichlids are very rare and many species are probably extinct just becos people like to have a fishing industry.....
J
Many thanks for all the comments and opinions.
It has proven to be very revealing how many of us view our world, and the responsibilities we may or may not feel towards its preservation.
Ignorance is not bliss, it never was.
We live in an enclosed eco system called Planet Earth, and we have proven, by mistake and by design (more by design??) that we completely underestimate our capacity for destruction, and for the most part support Governments that govern with there eyes closed to the plight of our natural world.
I hope that we can continue to make responsible opinions and comments on this thread, and remember that we are all responsible for our individual actions, and collectively we cannot ignore the impact our various lifestyles is having on an already over stretched planet.
Keep it coming... ;)
:applause: :)
i think in the form of education and integrity then yes, but in a form of acutal livestock being put back i think its a bad idea, as it will lead at sometime to a disease be introduced and massive issues just look at what happened to lake victoria when someone had a bright idea :whistling::whistling:
was thinking more along the lines of when your frag turns into a mother colony then put frags back - stupid idea really due to the logistics :o
was thinking more along the lines of when your frag turns into a mother colony then put frags back - stupid idea really due to the logistics :o
would be fine if you lived on the beech and only took stock from that one specific reef, otherwise the negatives far outweigh the positives imo, but as i have said a return in education to the reef if worth far more long term than the actual coral anyway :thumbsup:
i WAS watching a program about these marine biologist's who make sculptures then dump them in the sea - that way divers can visit them instead of the other reefs.
thought that was a cool idea.
i WAS watching a program about these marine biologist's who make sculptures then dump them in the sea - that way divers can visit them instead of the other reefs.
thought that was a cool idea.
yeah they tried that in the states, they thought dumping a few million tyres in to make a false reef would be a good idea, turned out not to be :eek::whistling:
yeah they tried that in the states, they thought dumping a few million tyres in to make a false reef would be a good idea, turned out not to be :eek::whistling:
haha I had heard about that, dumb ass yanky doodles.
the man made reefs i dived on that the North Sulawesi Watersports Association had put on a badly damaged reef where really good. loads of coral growing on them some from frags and some naturally. No where near as good as the real thing though.
From all the reading and conversations ive had with people involved in reef conservation,the key is to give the local communitys exclusive fishing rights to there reefs. Basicly they decide who, what and how much is taken from there reefs.
When outsiders are allowed in openley the locals do not look after there reefs and do not harvest the reefs sustainabley,they take as much as they can, as quickly as they can before the outsiders get it. When they have exclusive rights to the reefs,they have shown that they look after the reefs and harvest sustainbley,at the end of the day these people know the reefs better than most.
I think alot of people think that reef conservation and the aquatic trade go hand in hand. But from what I have read most of the time thats not the case. Mariculture if done sustaibley would be great at creating jobs for local communitys but most of the time coral extraction in my opinion is not good for reef conservation.
I think your right there Ross1 - I remember a seahorse project program on QED I think, it was so successful consering the sea horse habitat and supplying the Chinese that they had to employ an anti poacher vessel to keep other persons not linked to the community who were looking after the seahorses and harvesting them from nicking the seahorses for themselves.
The key thing was the male pregnant s horses were kept in small cages in the ocean until they popped their offspring rather than drying the daddy and babies together - this caused the seahorse population to recover in this part of Indonesia (I think).
How are we going to find out how our corals are being collected and what implications or outcomes does this have on the local population? I mean there are many operators out there who are private businesses the last thing they want to do is deal with the natives (perhaps I am wrong) - possibly bringing workers into areas from outside countries etc etc which would cause the locals to feel pushed aside and hence not look after their reefs.
I wonder if sponsors could find out exactly what benefits their imported corals have on local communities where the livestock comes from?
J
From all the reading and conversations ive had with people involved in reef conservation,the key is to give the local communitys exclusive fishing rights to there reefs.
i wouldnt agree with that statement
when the local fish for the marine trade - they go out, catch whatever they can, then leave them in buckets on the sand in the sweltering heat while people come round and barter for what they have in the buckets.
NOT very humane imho
( i must say i have never witnessed this but have heard from several people that this is how its done )
ah ok - just read your full post
yes i agree if it does cure their methods of fishing :)
i wouldnt agree with that statement
when the local fish for the marine trade - they go out, catch whatever they can, then leave them in buckets on the sand in the sweltering heat while people come round and barter for what they have in the buckets.
NOT very humane imho
( i must say i have never witnessed this but have heard from several people that this is how its done )
ERRRR sorry but i think you need to do a little more research. who else do you think does the catching apart from locals? special people flown in from the US? :laugh:
ah ok - just read your full post
yes i agree if it does cure their methods of fishing :)
they can fish for food for subsistance and for cash sustainabley,its just when there reefs/fisherys are used by "everybody" they feel they must out compete them before the outsiders take all there fish.
getting the locals exclusive fishing rights in places like indonesia and papua is easier said than done though.
Especially when the world powers (IMF, World Bank) have sliced up the different economic sectors (forestry, mining, fishing etc) to various multinational corporations - fishing rights cannot be given to local fishermen if they have already been sold onto external countries.
Why do you think that more exotic species of fish are finding their way onto the slabs in supermarkets - deep water cod, parrotfish etc
Whether this would include the reefs where aquarium species are taken I am not sure. In small scale operations the fishing rights may be handed to local communities - remote communities though say in Island locations may have better chances
J
Especially when the world powers (IMF, World Bank) have sliced up the different economic sectors (forestry, mining, fishing etc) to various multinational corporations - fishing rights cannot be given to local fishermen if they have already been sold onto external countries.
Why do you think that more exotic species of fish are finding their way onto the slabs in supermarkets - deep water cod, parrotfish etc
Whether this would include the reefs where aquarium species are taken I am not sure. In small scale operations the fishing rights may be handed to local communities - remote communities though say in Island locations may have better chances
J
Spot on there fella.
It's all our 'all consuming' ravanous economys,short sighted governments and powerfull big business's that are wrecking this planet and its wildlife. And most of the time we just follow along like sheep. :(
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