View Full Version : Deltec European Grey Imports
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 11:15
Please be aware that there are some web sites offering Deltec Equipment at low prices which are being imported into the country with european 2 pin plugs.
We had a call today that the internet supplier in question, ( the one with the 11+ websites which all pretend to be different companies), is now cutting off the moulded 2 pin plugs and rewiring a UK 3 pin onto them.
This immediately removes any warranty on the item as Deltec or Aquabee will not take anything back where the plug has been removed.
There is also a potential safety issue as if water gets into the plug and the user electrocutes themselves - where do you go then as the manufacturer will walk away from any responsibility.
There is a european requirement to fit moulded plugs for exactly this reason.
All Uk Deltec equipment is supplied with a fused Uk 3 pin plug.
The 2 pin versions of the Deltec products we can only assume are being purchased from other retailers in Germany and then being resold on to the Uk public, as they are not supplied by D-D or the Deltec factory.
If any Deltec equipment is supplied with a 2 pin European plug and not a Uk 3 pin then the equipment is designed for the mainland European market place only. Equipment fitted with the 2 pin plug does not have the protection of a fuse as it would with the 3 pin plug. This is a standard requirement in the UK.
Please note that these European items are not supported by D-D in any way and the Deltec warranty would be on a return to factory basis by the original retailer in Europe.
Removal of the plug whether two or 3 pin will invalidate any warranty on the pump regardless of supplier and is therefore not recommended.
D-D offer full warranty on all Uk Deltec equipment supplied through our authorised retailer network.
You should therefore check that is it designed for use in the Uk before purchasing any Deltec products.
Buyer beware
Stuart
Stuart, can you or leigh, or someone make sure the detail about plug removal is added to your own site.
as i have previously removed plugs from equipment to aid wiring systems in the past, and have also return previously an item with out a plug on it to deltec for repair.... perhaps the results of this repair were due to the plug being missing:mad:
but it is worth it to know now for everyone!
many thanks :wave:
scottishreefer
22-10-08, 14:50
Why not buy electric shaver 2 pin plug adaptors as I'm positive they will fit, and that way there's no need to worry about losing the warranty.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that to take business away from bonafide UK suppliers/importers but it is a solution to a potential problem.
everyone uses standard eurpean adaptors (available through RS catalogues)
but i think people should buy from the genuine UK distributor. D&D.
because the after care and service they can offer etc.
for the sake of a few quid, grey imports are never worth it...
scottishreefer
22-10-08, 15:04
but i think people should buy from the genuine UK distributor. D&D.
because the after care and service they can offer etc.
for the sake of a few quid, grey imports are never worth it...
Cant argue with that mate. :thumbsup:
One other thing to remember is that they are not "Grey Imports" if the are supplied within the EEC. European trading laws ensure that. they are only grey if supplied from outside the EEC.
I also doubt very much that deltec/aquabee wauld have a leg to stand on if the plug has been removed.
Although I agree the UK law does say thay all electrical equipment must be fitted with a molded 3 pin fused plug, not sure why its never been applied to shavers though.
Mind you if D&D sold there products at the same price as they are sold in the slightly cheaper European market there wouldn't be any problems. Alternative imports only exist because of greedy UK Distributors. although apparently some do give a better service and that may well justify the extra charges, although in my many years experience most don't do any thing extra.
I think you're "gready" statement should be edited out!
Thats a sick line to take with it.
To suggest D&D are gready is the biggest load of tosh out there.
Remember D&D are a business, just like everyone else.
They have homes, cars, children, wives....and lives to lead.
Everyone has to make their money!
This is however where things you a bit wrong with D&D, if you brought a TV of something for a local shop etc and it went wrong on saturday night, chances are you'd be waiting till monday for a repair guy etc (just an example).
D&D employes however seem to have forgotten the usual trading practises of everyone else in the UK.
On only too many occasions they give up their time, out of hours to help so so many.
I've known them to pop round to peoples houses to look at stuff, fix problems etc.... when there was nothing wrong with the kit, just the aquarist!
I've chatted to staff when their are at home packing bags in their room ready to go away on holiday. They bust 'balls' to help their customers. They're not paid for this! it's not in their job discription.
They do this simply because they're dawn nice guys, with tons of experience behind them.
When i talk about experience, i'm not talking 8-10 years of reef keeping, i'm talking decades!, from when it all began...
There's little if nothing they don't know, they'll push someone elses products during conversation and say "no, ours won't be good for that". how many companies do you know are that honest?
They have a time honoured history of looking after tremendous amounts of people, and a repution at the top of their game for a reason!
paying say 4-6% on top of the EU price is worth it for the service alone,
plenty of people buy on-line, plenty are ok and fault free. However the one time your £100 or £1000 piece of equipment goes wrong.....you'll want someone to fall back on, someone that will pick up the phone. not ignore your emails etc for so long! The extra lenghts that D&D go to in all those areas is why people are happy to pay.... i mean really happy! :)
and for your reference, the mark-up's are not significant.
however the in-store mark-up's are higher. it's down to you to haggle at the LFS. they are the ones pocketing the most out of it.
some research from yourself will comfirm it!
:wave:
Kind of missed to point of my post there, try re reading it
You're welcome :whistling:
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:01
Strewth - I know we put a lot of work into helping our customers out but did not realise that we were that good.
I appreciate your comments Damiano and this kind of feedback makes our hard work all worth while.
I posted this thread on our own forum as we are getting a number of disappointed customers who are contacting us with concerns and asking us to warn people of the potential problems out there - and so I did.
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:11
Stuart, can you or leigh, or someone make sure the detail about plug removal is added to your own site.
as i have previously removed plugs from equipment to aid wiring systems in the past, and have also return previously an item with out a plug on it to deltec for repair.... perhaps the results of this repair were due to the plug being missing:mad:
but it is worth it to know now for everyone!
many thanks :wave:
I have asked Deltec to add a sticker to each piece of equipment warning them of the warranty risks of removing the plug. In Germany and therefore presumably other areas in europe it is illegal for a manufacturer to sell a pump without a moulded plug unless it is fitted with 10m of cable.
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:14
Why not buy electric shaver 2 pin plug adaptors as I'm positive they will fit, and that way there's no need to worry about losing the warranty.
Shaver adaptors do not have the same pin spacings as the european plugs. Also many of the Deltec items are fitted with the round Schuko plugs with the earth connector which require a different adaptor.
Adaptors are available and are the way forward for european plug conversion. My warning is about the removal of the plug and not the type of plug.
Stuart
So from my understanding stuart if the supplier in question put a 3 plug adaptor onto the equipment rather than cutting off the plug then the deltec warranty would still be valid
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:22
One other thing to remember is that they are not "Grey Imports" if the are supplied within the EEC. European trading laws ensure that. they are only grey if supplied from outside the EEC.
Although I agree the UK law does say thay all electrical equipment must be fitted with a molded 3 pin fused plug, not sure why its never been applied to shavers though.
Accepted however grey import is a generally understood term. The rest of europe also has a different plug system to the UK which also is fitted with a safety fuse.
Shaver are only 110V or battery which is why the shaver socket has different pin positions to the euro 2 pin.
Stuart
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:27
So from my understanding stuart if the supplier in question put a 3 plug adaptor onto the equipment rather than cutting off the plug then the deltec warranty would still be valid
Correct however the conversation that I had today with a disappointed customer suggested that the plug had been cut off and changed to disguise the fact that it was originally a 2 pin unit - hence the post.
Deltec will still cover any warranties with their genuine suppliers however they will want to see a sales receipt to show the age of the unit which may be more difficult if it has been sold and then resold into another country.
Stuart
scottishreefer
22-10-08, 17:33
Shaver adaptors do not have the same pin spacings as the european plugs. Also many of the Deltec items are fitted with the round Schuko plugs with the earth connector which require a different adaptor.
Adaptors are available and are the way forward for european plug conversion. My warning is about the removal of the plug and not the type of plug.
Stuart
I stand corrected.....my apologies.:worship:
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 17:48
No problem :thumbsup:
So, in a nutshell, why is it cheaper to buy stuff abroad and have it shipped over than it is to buy it in the UK?
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 19:15
It is not cheaper in Europe through proper retail shops it is just that some online sites are happy to give high profile products away at just above cost as they use these items as a lure to attract traffic to their websites so that they can sell other less obvious products at higher prices.
Retail stores, which you all rely on being there for other things, cannot work on give away margins as they have retail store overheads to pay for and also STOCK. Many of the internet sites do not carry any stock at all and wait until they get an order before they get it in.
Stuart
davethefish
22-10-08, 19:37
So, in a nutshell, why is it cheaper to buy stuff abroad and have it shipped over than it is to buy it in the UK?
higher cost of living in the UK due to crippling taxes, on everything from fuel tax, to council tax,
plus Value Added Tax on the all stuff you buy (a lot of which is already massively taxed), with you taxed wages, PAYE, NI.
i reckon we would of paid less tax to the sheriff of nottingham :laugh:
Stuart,
If I buy something in the UK and cut the plug off, but have original receipt from an accepted UK dd approved supplier is my product covered?
Kev
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 19:59
No Kevin as you will have modified the pump by cutting off the plug and Deltec can not go back to Aquabee with it.
This is not a black and white as it depends on the failure.
If water gets onto the open plug then the electricity can track across the salt and short out the pump. This is why it is not covered.
Sometimes we make a commercial decision too and cover the warranty ourselves or offer a low cost part replacement.
Stuart
Ok, thanks for answering.
Kev
Well i cut all the molded plugs off all my equipment to get it inside my D&D 24g cabinet because the hole wasn't big enough, perhaps i should have made the hole bigger.
Stuart Bertram
22-10-08, 20:50
That is because the cabinet is designed by JBJ with tiny US plugs
Cheers
Stuart
No Kevin as you will have modified the pump by cutting off the plug and Deltec can not go back to Aquabee with it.
This is not a black and white as it depends on the failure.
If water gets onto the open plug then the electricity can track across the salt and short out the pump. This is why it is not covered.
Sometimes we make a commercial decision too and cover the warranty ourselves or offer a low cost part replacement.
Stuart
I think you should double check that with trading standards, they told me that plug removal should not invalidate any warranty for the item the plug was attached to.
Could you just imagin the uproar if your thousand pound american style fridge freezer packed up with a failed pipe joint and the makers refused a warranty repair because you chopped the plug off to feed the wire through a small hole in one of the kitchen cabinets to get to the nearest wall socket. It ain't going to happen.
Accepted however grey import is a generally understood term. The rest of europe also has a different plug system to the UK which also is fitted with a safety fuse.
Shaver are only 110V or battery which is why the shaver socket has different pin positions to the euro 2 pin.
Stuart
Is that why my Phillishave has a 2 pin plug and runs on 230Volts then
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=270645
Please see this thread
craigieboi
23-10-08, 02:10
One other thing to remember is that they are not "Grey Imports" if the are supplied within the EEC. European trading laws ensure that. they are only grey if supplied from outside the EEC.
I also doubt very much that deltec/aquabee wauld have a leg to stand on if the plug has been removed.
Although I agree the UK law does say thay all electrical equipment must be fitted with a molded 3 pin fused plug, not sure why its never been applied to shavers though.
Mind you if D&D sold there products at the same price as they are sold in the slightly cheaper European market there wouldn't be any problems. Alternative imports only exist because of greedy UK Distributors. although apparently some do give a better service and that may well justify the extra charges, although in my many years experience most don't do any thing extra.
its about economics paul......
if i earn £1000s per week but it costs £100s for loaf of bread.......... not much value huh :eek:
as for deltec 'having a leg to stand on' RE fixed plug if u buy a product ( deltec say) and guarantee states if u remove plug u break warranty then on purchasing ur agreeing to this contract if u then break this contract thats it u have no warranty legally :D
The Unfair terms and conditions act would cover that nicely.
funkyparott
23-10-08, 07:23
Not so sure about that. Would a reasonable person think it was unfair to have a 'safety' clause written into a warranty? Suppose they take back a unit with a modded plug (where salt water has got into the innards), make a repair then someone gets hurt when the unit goes back. I see exactly there they are comming from.
The warranty is an extra supplied by the manufacturer supplier in addition to the Sales of Good Act.
Sales of Goods Act disputes are taken up with the retailer in law. Warranty concerns are with the supplier / manufacturer. As I see it, they can write any reasonable terms into such a warranty.
I personally don't think Deltec are being unfair with having such a clause.
I have to say, Deltect have always given me very good customer support over the phone when I have queries. For this reason, I would probably always purchase from the UK.
However, we are in the European Community and people are free to choose where they purchase equipment from. The term 'grey import' does sound shady, however this should not be. The only thing you need to consider is the question of support. Direct EU sourced products are going to mean you have to deal with the European supplier and deal with the associated postage costs. For something like a skimmer, I'd rather had it dealt with in the UK.
The Unfair terms and conditions act would cover that nicely.
I see why companies do this thing with the plug - they have to cover themselves. Surely though if you have removed the plug for a specific reason, then the unit/pump/whatever fails for another reason totally unrelated to the removal and re-attachment of the plug, the fault should still be repaired. This is NOT a dig at D&D, its just my perception. ALL my dealings with D&D have been excellent and the Customer Service is second to none in my experience. :)
Stuart,
If I buy something in the UK and cut the plug off, but have original receipt from an accepted UK dd approved supplier is my product covered?
Kev
As an alternative to fitting a standard plug, it is permissible, if the appliance is correctly fitted with a non-UK plug which complies with the provisions of international standard IEC 884-1, to be fitted with a "conversion plug" that has been approved for use in conjunction with the non-UK plug. The "conversion plug" must enclose the non-UK plug, and must only be removable by the use of a tool. The "conversion plug" must be approved by a notified body.
The "conversion plug" must enclose the non-UK plug, and must only be removable by the use of a tool. The "conversion plug" must be approved by a notified body.
Several companies now ship with Euro convertion plugs. My last Sony camera had one fitted.
For those that don't know what were talking about, these:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Connectors-Mains-Power/Mains-Plugs/Euro-converter-plug/63627/kw/uk%20euro%20plug
Several companies now ship with Euro convertion plugs. My last Sony camera had one fitted.
For those that don't know what were talking about, these:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Connectors-Mains-Power/Mains-Plugs/Euro-converter-plug/63627/kw/uk%20euro%20plug
This is due to them having to only make one lead and then offer the conversion plug for other markets, this then means it complies with all our laws and you do not need to cut off any plugs meaning the manufactures has to honour any warranty claims, now with this in mind the manufactures not the supplier, the supplier can honour the warranty in other countries if they choose to and many do but by law they do not have to and you may have to either return the unit to the shop you brought it from if overseas or to the manufactures for any warranty claims but there is no need at all to be cutting off any plugs and you can buy waterproof sealed conversion plugs.
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