View Full Version : Lucy and Roddy's tete a tete
I'm contemplating a big system and as a newcomer to eco systems could really do with some help. Display tank would be in the order of 6x2x2 but I would have a remote sump system which could be anything up to another 3 6x2x2 tanks. So, could you all tell me:-
1.) How often do you do a water change, and what % of your total system volume do you change?
2.) As a factor of your total system volume, what is the flow rate through your dsb/mud/algae sump?
Thanks in advance for any help. :worship:
dan-the-man
30-10-08, 16:10
Oooo very nice, you wouldn't need so many tank filled with MM and chaeto though, but I suspect you know that. :p
1. :o Erm, hardly ever as I'm hardly ever there... maybe 10% four times a year...
2. About 10-15% iirc. There is a lot of talk about flow rate through fuges, but I feel a slower rate is better.
Thanks Dan,
Both of those answers are very encouraging. :) My hope was that by having such a big water volume to display tank ratio I could get away with less frequent water changes.
Also, the one big obstacle I have to overcome is about 6m of head height between the lowest sump (down on the opposite side of the garage) and the display (upstairs in the office right next to my desk). Finding a return pump that will handle the head and still produce a sensible flow rate is going to be a problem.
Some of those tanks could be bare and just used as extra water volume, but I was thinking of big cryptic zone and a big mud/algae bed. Lights would be the limiting factor. i.e. how much lighting do I want to run 24/7 and what area will that cover.
Anyone else got any figures for me to compare? Please!:D
I think that that water volume will give you plenty of flexibility on your water changes. I think the MM system is run on 10% water changes per week. I have yet to do a large water change on my system - planned for this weekend of 10% just 20 litres
Lighting - whatever lighting you can use to grow the algae - I think I am right that lower K ratings of 6 to 7,000K is idea for algae growth (isnt it?).
I am planning to use energy saving bulbs on my sump instead of the 4 t5's - I need to reduce evapouration and energy use so these bulbs are the way to go.
Sounds like a wonderful system to build - much more complicated than my system which is much smaller lol
J
dan-the-man
30-10-08, 19:48
6000-7000k is best for photosynthesis I'm told.
I use envirolites (125w, 6400k iirc) They would probably cover a 24x24" area with reflector as a guess - I made my own reflector though.
1. 15% water changes fortnightly
2. turnover through sump is about 5x volume per hour. lower is better as long as you are getting enough water over the weir to keep the tank surface oil free.
6m of head is going to need a serious sequence pump to run and use a seriuos amount of leccy as well.
3 sumps is overkill you would be better with one larger sump partitioned into different zones and then an IBC with a dark zone in it.
you say the lowest sump is 6m below. does that mean that some are higher, in which case you could do a staged lift through the 3 sumps.
i would use 2 sumps and keep the 3rd for making up water changes. water changes don't just remove nitrates etc but put fresh trace elements back into the system.
The amount of effort involved setting this system up for a 6x2x2 display just does not seem worth it. why not just do a self contained 6x2x2 with sump below?
Roddy
Thanks all, much appreciated.
Roddy - the reason for the somewhat complicated plan is basically room restrictions. If you can bear with me I'll try and explain. :D
The display tank is going upstairs in the converted coach house we use for an office. This has sloped ceilings, a bit like an attic conversion. So, I'll need to sit this tank on a very low stand. This isn't a problem since it will be viewed while I'm sat at my desk. My old cube tank was in the same place until I closed it down a few months ago. Although the stand on that was quite low I still had very little space over the tank once the lights were in place. This made working in the display a constant exercise in burning my arms on the lights. :eek: The restricted height under the tank also made working in the sump a job for a contortionist. All in all, it was a right nuisance, and therefore I didn't do as much as I should and the tank suffered. :o So, the only practical solution is to sit the tank lower, so I can work safely in the display, and put the sump elsewhere.
There's no room elsewhere in the office for one, so the only place I can do it is in the garage, where I can segregate a 6x3 (ish) space. Unfortunately this is on the opposite side of the garage so about 5m across and 3m down. I know what you're saying about 3 tanks being overkill, but my reasoning is that once you have to deal with getting the water all the way down to the garage and back up again, you may as well put as much water volume down there as you can fit. I envisage a 3 tier rack system with water flowing through each level in turn. As you suggest, I have considered a staged pumping solution, which will make finding suitable pumps easier, even if it doesn't reduce the running costs.
I would, probably, put a cryptic/dark zone in the top tank, (simply because I won't need to get at that one so often), then a mud/algae bed in the middle one, (nice and accessible), and some plain tanks on the lowest shelf. One of these would likely be my old 26" cube which I would set up so it can be taken out of the system for water changes. I'd also put a RO reservoir down there somewhere.
So, as you say, an awful lot of complication for a 6x2x2, but really, having dithered for months over this I've come to the conclusion that there's no point putting the tank anywhere else. The joys of self employment mean I literally spend most of my life at this desk and I see no other way to have a large tank up here.
The reason I'm asking about water changes it that I had hoped to see some benefit from this opportunity to have a big water volume. With the bigger water volume in relation to the size of the display I had hoped there would be additional dilution of bad things, and an additional buffer of good things, if that make sense? :D I had hoped to do large, but less frequent water changes.
The reason I'm asking about flow rates is that return pump(s) are obviously going to be a major factor in whether this is possible. There are pumps that will operate at those head heights but they won't produce much flow at that head. So if there was a consensus that fast flow rates were required the project could be a non starter. Fortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. :D
If any of this (long winded:o) explanation sparks any other thoughts I'd be more than grateful to hear them. This is going to be a project way in advance of anything I've tackled before so I need all the help I can get. :whistling:
OK i see your problem now.
I would still only use 2 tanks in the sump section and use the lowest tier for a water change setup as this can almost automate a really painful chore.
i would also use your 26" tank as a top-up tank as this thing will drink top-up like nobody's business due to the surface area and water flow unless your only planning to use t5's (which it doesn't sound like you are)
the good news is the sequence pumps you will need is less costly to run than i had thougt as it sound like its actually a 8m run but only a 3m lift.
something like this should do you
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=280280308749&Category=139928null&_trksid=p3907.m29
these are about 220watts which is less than the pumps you would need to do the staged lift and maintain a decent flow.
that should get you something like 10000lph actual which would be about 3x turnover of total system. you will need to find a calculator however for frition loss etc once you have a better idea of setup.
like Dan i can highly recommend an envirolight for the algae bed and would suggest lowbays for the main tank as they lift up a lot easier than a conventional halide.
how strong/stable is the floor in the basement as it will need to be sturdy to support 3x 6x2x2 on a single footprint. the frame will also need to be bloody strong as well. i imagine 40mm box section with a 3mm wall thickness would do but again find an expert in this area. there are a few builds on UR with these kind of stacked sumps so it must be do-able.
one last suggestion is have you considered mounting the sump above the display tank? this is the optimal placement for an ecosystem sump in fact as it allows gravity return of delicate plankton and pods. it does not need to be directly above or much higher than the main tank as long as the flow is reasonable it will work.
HTH
Roddy
Hi Roddy,
Thanks for your comments.
Unfortunately for the sump to be higher than the tank, even by a couple of inches, it would have to be up on the roof.:laugh: Actually there is a section of flat roof the other side of the wall which is perfectly accessible (because the whole building is built into the hill it's a roof from downstairs, but a pretty much floor level from the back door) and strong enough (I plan to put some decking out there one day). I did ask he who must be obeyed (or at least consulted!) if I could build a sump box/shed on there and got a very firm NO - so that's the end of that! :rolleyes:
The floor is a 6" thick poured concrete slab. I was planning this when it was laid so the builders were happy that would be okay as a foundation. It's already got a 6x4 sheet of insulation under it where the fish room will go too. It's also got 25m of alkathene (sp) pipe buried under the garage floor (for a cooling loop) as well as separate ring mains for the tank (both upstairs in the office and in the garage), drains and water supply in the garage, and roof vents over the tank space in the office. There is a block built supporting wall directly under the tank space too, although given the floor beams are about 12" deep this is just for security. :)
I have no intention of putting 3 tanks on a metal stand! :eek: Instead I'll get the builders to block up a wall either end with RSJ's laid across as shelf supports.
I'll have a look at that pump too, thanks for that.
On the subject of evaporation - I'll probably fit perspex cover plates over all the sumps apart from the one which is lit for the algae bed. So, hopefully not much more evaporation than a normal setup.
For the display I've got 3 off single 150W AquaMedic halide lights, one of which was my original and two I picked up second hand. I'll look into the enviro lights but I also know there's a big hydroponics supply place in Derby so I might see what they've got. There's also an awful lot of second hand stuff going in the classified's at the moment, so might pick up a bargain there.
The floor is a 6" thick poured concrete slab. I was planning this when it was laid so the builders were happy that would be okay as a foundation. It's already got a 6x4 sheet of insulation under it where the fish room will go too. It's also got 25m of alkathene (sp) pipe buried under the garage floor (for a cooling loop) as well as separate ring mains for the tank (both upstairs in the office and in the garage), drains and water supply in the garage, and roof vents over the tank space in the office. There is a block built supporting wall directly under the tank space too, although given the floor beams are about 12" deep this is just for security. :)
there's planning for a new tank and then there's PLANNING for a new tank.
envirolights are originally hydroponics kit so you should get them in the local place.
any chance of pics of the place where the tank will sit and the sump area. might help to visualise some of the challenges you are facing.
the only problem with the sequence pumps is they are described as "for pond use" so might not be suitible for marine use. worth checking out first.
Roddy
Hi Roddy,
The one I have is marinised. The problem I see with it is that although they're fantastic for closed loops, which is what I bought it for, they soon lose flow once you ask them to deal with any kind of head pressure.
I've had several false starts on this project, and this pump was bought for one of them (don't ask :whistling:), so it's brand new, never been wet. I'm going to look into pumps and see what makes sense. I may be better off selling this one 'as new' and buying something more suitable - don't know yet.
I'll get you some photo's a bit later, got a deadline to meet today in work! I appreciate it is a bit hard to get the idea just from a description.
Okay - photo's. Apologies for the quality 'cause they're off the phone.
First one shows the office/garage building from the front. I've sketched on a rough layout of where the tank and sumps will be.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q4/buildings-1.jpg
The garage space occupies not only the width of the doors, but the downstairs of the smaller building on the left. i.e. we took the supporting wall of that building out. Hope that makes sense.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q4/sumpCornerExt.jpg
This is the corner inside the garage where the "sump cupboard" will go. As you can see it's pretty well taken over by fishy stuff anyway. The wahser and drier will be moved out of the way.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q4/fishRoomVorner.jpg
And this is the area in the office where the display tank will sit, just under where the ceiling vents are. I think once it's in the nano on my desk will have to go, otherwise I'm going to be a tad short on desk space!
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q4/office.jpg
Hope that's all a bit clearer now. Thanks for your interest.
you pictures are perfect Lucy i can see now that a staged lift wont work due to the extra run on the last section causing friction which would cause a mismatch in the pump volumes which you would constatly have to try and balance, you would need an overflow weir in the top two tanks back into the one below to stop the whole system flooding all the time.
I think a sequence pump is your only option nothing else will handle that kind of run, even an ocean runner 6500 would be reduced to a trickle. i was not aware the head affected sequence pumps any worse that normal pumps but i've never used one so what would i know.
I would say you are looking at lossing 50% of your output with that kind of run it might be better to use two smaller pumps with a narrower bore pipe.
the man to contact would be 17000L if he is still on the board as he has a similar run to you from his basement out to the old stable.
Still it's the only problem i se with you proposed design. I take it you are planning to turn your desk as well otherwise you will just have the end of the tank in your periperal vision.
And now for my mad solution to your problem.
Cut a section of the back of the tank. 6" should be enough give you the room you need under the tank for a sump. to compensate i would make the tank 30" wide and only about 22" high this would give you another 2" of room and make the tank easier to work in. so the top of the tank would be 24" wide and everything from the bottom upto 16" would be 30" wide. as an added bonus the view from your desk would now be better.
this design would allow you to fit a full 24" wide tank underneath with 6" at the front for equipment thus the sump could be 5' long. If you get a metal stand built as well you should find that's plent room tou work in.
It sound weird i know but all you are really doing is moving the brace bar 6" down the tank so you are not actually lossing any usable tank access. with a bit of clever design it could also incorperate the weir as well and be almiost invisible.
in case you still have no idea what i mean here is how your tank would look in profile.
AIR air |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| KEY:
air air |----------------------------| ~~~~~~~~ water surface
air AIR |----------------------------| ------------ Water
air air_|---------------------------- | | side of tank
|-----------------------------------| _______________ Bottom of tank
|-----------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------- |
|-----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------- |
|---------------------------------- |
|---------------------------------- |
|---------------------------------- |
|______________________________|
there would be a triangular section at the back that would effectivle be deadspace for pipework, electrics or indead my favorite a dowwards facing vortech pump.
If you still dont know what i meant i will do a scetch-up for you.
Roddy ( the slightly Mad)
Not sure about "Roddy the slightly mad" it's either "Roddy the genius" or "Roddy the completely insane" - I'm just not sure which one! :laugh: Either way your input is much appreciated.
Right - starting at the beginning, with pumps. I'd no intention of trying to 'match' two pumps. I can't see it ever working to be honest. I had planned to pump from the base of the - you know what, I'm going to sketch this out 'cause it'll make more sense. Sketch to follow. :D
I did contact 17000L few years ago (I've been day-dreaming this one for years) and he uses ITT Argonauts. They're one of the ones I need to have another look at. I discounted them for the closed loop because they use more power for the same flow rate as Sequences, but it's possible they loose less of that flow to head pressure. I need to check. Useful reminder though, I should probably see if I can wrangle an invite over there as I think he could be a perfect person to talk to about this mad plan.
And talking of mad - it took me a while to get the idea of your little sketch, so I'm just checking I've understood here. The little cut out square marked "air" is intended to let me raise the tank because it cuts across under the ceiling, right? Now that's the bit where I lean towards "Roddy the genius"! :D And as for the down facing Vortech, bloomin' brilliant, what a superb reef flush type system that would make.
Having said that, there are a couple of snags, some to do with the shape of the tank, some more 'practical situation' type stuff, so here goes.
Lights - the higher up the slope of the ceiling you push the tank, the further forward you effectively push the lights. Really lights need to go over the back 2/3rds of the tank to light the rock structure, not the open swimming space at the front.
Weirs - not entirely sure where and how. The tank is viewable from 3 sides, so would prefer not to put them on the ends.
In fact, as you have pointed out, I will view it mainly from the end. I know you suggested turning my desk, but since the monitor has to go in front of me (unless I give up all pretense of working), that wouldn't help much. I'll re-arrange things so that the pc box is the other side (the nano is going to have to go) and the situation should be just like it is with the nano currently on the desk, which works fine. Besides, think of the depth perspective! :)
Anyway, last point, which is more practical. One of the big headaches with any tank in the office is lugging water up a smallish spiral staircase. I suffer from a bad back occasionally and this is one of the chief causes. If I do the sump room then water changes become a matter of turning a few taps, no more lifting, ever!:applause:
So, all in all, I plan to keep investigating the sump in the garage option, looking at both practicality and cost. However, this is an excellent 'fall back position'. Actually, I've been concentrating mostly on the sumps & pumps aspect so far and haven't really thought abut the display tank too much. If we can figure out the weirs I can see this idea being incorporated anyway, just to give me the best stand height for viewing, and the biggest tank of course!
Thanks so much for your input :worship: sump stack sketch to follow.
I'm doing something similar on my new build Lucy,
My display tank is going to be 5x3x2h and is in the living room above the garage.
The display is to have an external weir on the back panel in the centre,
this will drop down into the garage where the sump is to be located,
The sump system will be made up of 3 tanks;
the top tank, which will recieve the pipes from the display weir will be a 6'x2'x15"h frag tank, this will have a weir which will drop to,
the middle tank, which will be a 6'x2'x18" and will consist of two 2.5' sections, one lit for MM and algae, and one darkened as a standard DSB, this will then drop into the final tank,
the lower tank will be a 8x2x18" which is going to have a darkened section with some extra live rock in, and the rest of the tank is setup for the return section, and also a seperate area for auto top up.
i am going to have two pumps in the return section,
one acting as the return to the display (although i may change this to two pumps, as i am still looking for one that will handle the 11' head and still have enough flow)
and one acting as a loop from the return section to the beginning of the DSB section, so the DSB and rock sections have a faster through flow than the MM section.
Matt.
Excellent - someone to nick ideas off!
Let me know what you find on pumps if you would. It looks like we're after something similar.
I'll get that sump stack drawn up asap. (well tomorrow maybe!)
yep you have the idea perfectly. cental weir would be the way to go regardless of which sump method you decide upon.
I had thought of the lights i just forgot to mention it as it was late when i posted. you move them forward and angle them back slightly otherwise the corner section will cast a horrible shadow anyway. It also solves the problem of light glare from the halides.
desk problem is easy. buy a corner desk and sit it right next to the tank with the monitor in the corner and the tank on your left.
there's nothing to stop you having a water change tank setup in the garage
to pump water up from. you would need a much less powerful pump as it would not matter if it took and hour to fill back up.
just though of another problem. is the garage heated? if not you will have serious heat loss problems in the winter.
Roddy
Hmm - interesting on the 'water change only' in the garage idea. Again, a fall back position if the big idea turns out not to be practical.
Not quite sure how I would angle the lights, they hang on suspension wires, but I'm sure it could be done. Now that you mention it I'm surprised more people don't try it, as it would seem to direct the light at the front face of the rockwork, which is where we want it. Good idea.
Glare is not such an issue, as I plan to build a hood that fits up to the ceiling enclosing the top of the tank. The plates you can see on the ceiling are roof tile vents, they cover a hole that runs through to a vented slate on the outside of the roof. I would fit fans in either end of the canopy which should push air from the office across the lights and force it out the vents, taking the heat with it. I'm hoping this will avoid some of the heat build up.
The sumps in the garage would sit within a purpose made "fish cupboard". i.e. like a fish room, but smaller(!), so it takes up less car maneuvering room in the garage. It would be enclosed, but have slide/concertina doors that I'd have to have open to work on the sumps. This is not only for temperature control for the tanks benefit, but to keep out dust (garage floor is concrete) and prevent moisture build up in the garage (to protect the cars!). Again, I would create a positive pressure airflow vented to outside.
The cupboard itself would be insulated, but I also plan on removable lagging for the sump tanks. Put it on for the winter, take it off for the summer, as a crude temperature control mechanism. Because the garage is part underground, and the walls are about 2' thick solid stone, the garage temperature doesn't actually fluctuate that much. It's always noticeably cooler in there (than the outside air temp) in summer, and noticeably warmer in winter.
Obviously, I won't know how well it works until it's too late, but I have hopes that it will be a positive help with temperature control, rather than a problem.
Can you think of a way of doing a central weir with your cut-away-corner design? Doesn't actually need to be a corner either, could just be cut across at the correct angle to match the ceiling line.
Hmm - interesting on the 'water change only' in the garage idea. Again, a fall back position if the big idea turns out not to be practical.
yeah i'm only really trying to play devils advocate here, your 3 tank sump idea will work it's just a matter of wether the gains justify the costs. (or ofset the disadvantages.
Not quite sure how I would angle the lights, they hang on suspension wires, but I'm sure it could be done. Now that you mention it I'm surprised more people don't try it, as it would seem to direct the light at the front face of the rockwork, which is where we want it. Good idea.
weights on the front or a third wire on the back. an yes the ideal halide would be well above the tank and track across during the day. failing that an angled halide helps to reduce shading.
Glare is not such an issue, as I plan to build a hood that fits up to the ceiling enclosing the top of the tank. The plates you can see on the ceiling are roof tile vents, they cover a hole that runs through to a vented slate on the outside of the roof. I would fit fans in either end of the canopy which should push air from the office across the lights and force it out the vents, taking the heat with it. I'm hoping this will avoid some of the heat build up.
120mm PC fans i take it, they are working well on our tank at the mo'
The sumps in the garage would sit within a purpose made "fish cupboard". i.e. like a fish room, but smaller(!), so it takes up less car maneuvering room in the garage. It would be enclosed, but have slide/concertina doors that I'd have to have open to work on the sumps. This is not only for temperature control for the tanks benefit, but to keep out dust (garage floor is concrete) and prevent moisture build up in the garage (to protect the cars!). Again, I would create a positive pressure airflow vented to outside.
The cupboard itself would be insulated, but I also plan on removable lagging for the sump tanks. Put it on for the winter, take it off for the summer, as a crude temperature control mechanism. Because the garage is part underground, and the walls are about 2' thick solid stone, the garage temperature doesn't actually fluctuate that much. It's always noticeably cooler in there (than the outside air temp) in summer, and noticeably warmer in winter.
because 3/4 of the systems total water volume is going to be here the pull down could be considerable. a friend of ours had an external sump outside in one of those blow molded tool storage cupboards which he had filled with expanding foam and lagged with polysterene. it was very sheltered between two houses but the tank temperature still dropped dramatically during the winter. Now obviously i don't expect you garage to be this bad but i would still get a min/max thermometer and check it this winter before comiting to such a big build.
Obviously, I won't know how well it works until it's too late, but I have hopes that it will be a positive help with temperature control, rather than a problem.
Can you think of a way of doing a central weir with your cut-away-corner design? Doesn't actually need to be a corner either, could just be cut across at the correct angle to match the ceiling line.
I have a few idea's i will scetch some out at work and try them in scetch up and post them up. failing that an end weir will work perfectly with this setup. I had considered a 45' piece of glass but i don't think it would be strong enough to replace a brace bar where as two seperate pieces would and would be easier to build and more convienet for cables etc.
Thanks Roddy,
I look forward to the sketches, I cant figure that one out I have to admit :confused:
The idea of a max/min thermometer and checking out the garage is a good one, will see if I can get one this weekend. :thumbsup:
i've found a sequence pump on an american site, with the flow charts for each one.
the Sequence 5100SEQ22 External Pump is a 5000GPH(US) pump, so around 19000LPH
at a head of 15 feet it is rated at 12300LPH still, so would do the job for me, only downside is its external.
also its $455
what exact flow are you looking for Lucy?
as promised i mocked up some weir designs.
this is the most strait forward 2 down pipes and two returns feed through the wall with bulkheads. the weir is in fact just a chimney to allow pipework to the sump. ie it has no bottom.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/frogfone/7129cb7c.jpg
next one is a proper center weir but the back is lower than the front the down pipes would Obviously need to be lower to allow for this which would make the overflow noisy due to a 12" drop
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/frogfone/b760286b.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/frogfone/9ea6c80a.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/frogfone/f980ac47.jpg
finally the same design but with a 45' piece of glass. this version would need an additional brace bar imho. but have to admit looks better and probably easier to build.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/frogfone/c39b1db2.jpg
Obviously once any of these tanks was in place it would be impossible to work in the weir and for that reason i would recommend the first design as the most foolproof. 6 holes might be better as it would allow you to use smaller bulkheads which would fit within the cutout section.
Obviously you would need to talk to a tank builder to see if any of this is even possible to build as sketch up diagrams dont have to support 600kg of water.:laugh::laugh:
Roddy
Roddy,
First of all thank you so much. :worship: You've put in a load of work to do those and it's very much appreciated.
As you say, the last two could be a noise nightmare because of the water fall in the weir. Also, because the water going over the weir is going to be in very close proximity to the ceiling I think the splashing is going to be an issue as well. I was already planning on 'lining' the ceiling with a thin piece of perspex because I think the humidity in the canopy space will wreck the plasterwork if not. However, I can see splashes from the weir running down the wall with that weir design.
The first one is much more practical, but unless I put a triangular weir in front of those bulkheads then it's not really surface skimming. However, if I was going for the plain tank I would either go for a almost full length triangular weir or a cutaway shape and an external weir box, so that in its self is not an issue.
Build wise I will probably end up using either my local tank builder (not a site sponsor so can't name) or Fit (who get named so often on here they may as well be a sponsor!). The display tank will actually be the last bit to get done so I'll see if I've got Fit sort of money left over at that point! I'll build the sump system first so that I can bung some rock in there and get a system running/cycling, then just add another 600L to it once the display is set up!
On a good note I did speak to my cousin-in-law the builder over the weekend. He knows me well enough that when I ask him to build me a "set of shelves" there's going to be more to it than there sounds. Even so, his face on being told I need a max load capacity of 2 tonne on each of three shelves was worth seeing! :laugh: Anyway, he's a busy man, so it'll be few weeks before he can start anything, and that's got to be the first stage.
Thanks for all your help with this. I'm now going to concentrate on designing the sump stack and choosing a pump. There's some great info on TMC's website about specifying pumps. I've calculated out a few head height/flow rate figures:-
1.) Approx 5X turnover
For a flow rate of 15.9 cubic meters per hour (15900L/h) thru 2" pipe the total head loss is 5.7m
2.) Approx 6X turnover
For a flow rate of 18.17 cubic meters per hour (18170L/h) thru 2" pipe the total head loss is 6m
7.) Approx 7.5X turnover
For a flow rate of 22.7 cubic meters per hour (22700L/h) thru 2" pipe the total head loss is 7.2m
Going for the middle one I'm looking at either an Argonaut AV150 or an AV200. Either 1Kw or 1.3Kw:eek:
Anyway, I've got three shelves available, and that has to include absolutely everything - not just sumps but ro storage, water change tank, a pod farm if I want one, quarantine - the lot. I have to hand a 26" cube, a 6x2x2 with three drain holes in the top of the back wall, and a 4x1.5x1.5 (ish) sump which I can remove/re arrange the baffles in if needed. I'd like to re-use these if possible to keep costs down a bit. So, how would you set out the sump stack, and why.
All answers on a post card please. :thumbsup:
Hi Lucy
i did not do as much as you think. i already had the basic tank with weir as a sketch up diagram anyway. just had to cut of the back corner and save a few versions.
the weir should not really cause any real amount of splashing but a piece of acrylic over the weir for condensation would be a sensible precaution.
on the first design yes either upturned U bends or triangular sections would make it surface skim.
I would say 5x turnover would be perfectly fine on this size of a system.
even so 1 to 1.3 Kwh is massive. have you factored the running costs yet?
at a conservative 10p per Kwh this pump is going to cost you £900 to £1200 per year. considering your stocking rate for the 6'x2'x2' will still be restricted by tank size i just don't think you are getting good VFM. different story if it was for a 3000l main display but you are effectivly paying for a really big sump. Even if the cost is not an issue think of all the lovely fish/corals you could buy with £1000. :)
Roddy
i did not do as much as you think.
Still appreciated :)
have you factored the running costs yet?
Nope I got scared and quit! :laugh:
I have a suspicion the Argonaut's are not the most efficient things, so the search for a pump goes on. Even so It's not going to be that far out.
Honestly Roddy, I really don't know what to do.:( I'm really struggling for any other way (than the sumps in the garage) to put a tank in the one space where I will see anything of it.
While it's all on paper it cost's me nothing.:) I plan to figure all this stuff out then decide whether I go ahead or not.
What I need is some sort of star trek 4th dimension I can squeeze a sump into in the office! :laugh:
Lucy
can you post a picture of the whole room from the door.
As you may have guessed by know i do love a challenge and my brain is not wired up right so i may be able to think of something.
i.e.
instead of 1 big tank what about 2 smaller tanks linked together. one would be a liverock reef the other a seagrass bed with pipefish of boxfish. 2x ehiems would pump water from one to the other then back again. the low light lightly stocked seagrass tank would effectivly be your sump. you could sandwich your desk between 2 4' tanks or have a corner desk with the back 2 walls being tanks.
Roddy
:laugh: Damn but you're good!
How much is it going to cost me to bribe Sharon to let you come all the way down here and solve all my problems in one go?!
I've got to go out today, so no yime right now, but I'll post pictures/sketches later.
Thanks for all this. :worship:
Just to add - so you know just how much you have sparked my interest with this one :laugh: but, despite telling myself that if I did the big tank it was going to be the only tank, I saw some banded pipefish in the lfs at the weekend and thought - well if I'm emptying the current stock out of the nano .....:whistling:.
The other half likes seahorses as well, although I know absolutely nothing about them, so would require some proper research.
basically a modified version of my own plans to have a viasble sump and stock cowfish/pipefish/leaffish or something along those lines.
if you had a custom metal stand built the desk could be part of the tanks with Pc/printer etc built in underneath to minimise cluter on the desk that would obscure the tanks. Monitor should be the only thing really.
It's not two tanks its a smaller tank with a sump. was thinking about it last night and all you would need would be a closed loop in each tank except they would cross feed to transfer from one tank to the other. i would also recommend a passive pipe to allow for any discrepancies in tank levels.
If the other half likes seahorses should i make it a T shaped design with a desk either side:laugh::laugh:
Sharon would be glad to see the back of me:)
Rather than a photo perhaps a floorplan with distances would be better.
Roddy
Thanks Roddy,
Now back in the office, but after a long and boring day stood around in a workshop I'm a bit knackered for doing sketches tonight. Anyway, the dearly beloved may have just solved all my problems. :D
Remember I told you he was dead against building a sump box on the flat roof on the other side of the wall from the tank? Well it turns out he had some preconception of a huge shed out there - big enough to hold the sort of sump stack I was talking about in the garage.:doh: Seems a sump box/lean to kind of arrangement might be possible after all. He wants an outside tap routing up there for watering his plants anyway, so could work out all round. Need to go and measure up and have a think in the morning.
I'll get back to you with plan number - well whatever we're up to now - tomorrow.
Only thing already worrying me is temperature control. Oh, and doing water changes in the rain! :rolleyes:
Oh err.. apparently we are having a tete a tete.
sump box on the roof sounds like the best plan all round but my corner tank/desk reef thingy would have looked way cooler. :laugh:
sound like you need to start researching fish rooms. the guy we buy our discus from keeps his in a shed in Scotland at 30oC so down your way at 25oC should be a breeze. what about a nice wooden shed that your other half can put trellises on? that way it's not to much of an eyesore. and you could still have a water change butt in there with a pump so it's all pretty much automatic.
Roddy
Where the $%&^)& did this come from? :laugh: I guess we got our new section then!
Sorry I've not got back to you Roddy - it's been hectic in work.
Right - I'm still see-sawing between the roof box and the garage. Note, that's a box, not a shed. Again, I'm going to be limited on height - almost exactly the same levels to play with as in the office, so it would be a kind of lean to affair, just tall enough for sump and lights, lift the lid off to work on it, that kind of thing.
Unfortunately that roof space is quite exposed. Being up high it catches the wind on colder days, and it's in full sun for much of the day, so could be a mare in summer. Put it like this - I sunbath out on that roof in the summer! I might manage a smaller top up tank in there, but not quarantine/pod farm etc, so I'd still need to make provision for those down in the garage.
I think it would be a cheaper solution in terms of setup costs, possibly in terms of running costs (depends if I'd end up needing to run heaters in winter and a chiller in summer), but it's not the 'best' solution in terms of enjoying working on the system.
So - I've been having a long chat with another eco system user today, discussing flow rates (my big stumbling block) and water changes (an area I'd hoped to economise on with the big water volume in the garage system). He was suggesting that with that huge water voulme I might get away with as low as 1X or 2X turnover/hour. Remember, in my situation it might well be cheaper to add additional flow locally in any sections of the sump stack that need it, than to have that extra flow going through the whole system, needing a bigger return pump. At about 1.5X turnover I can get a pump that will do that head for about half a kilowatt, (I think, need to do some number crunching!). That, although still expensive, comes back into the realms of the possible.
What do you think?
sorry what i meant by shed was a bike store like this one.
http://www.buyshedsdirect.co.uk/search-overlap-bike-store-glg-346
7'x 3' is the perfect size for a 6' sump by the time you lag the inside with 6" polstyrene or something similar.
yes i see the logic in that the 5x turnover is based on the assumption that the bulk of the system will be a display tank then the turnover needs to be 5x the display tank to allow for good surface movement and adequate remova of detritus to the sump. don't know why i did not think of that but that's the whole point of UR, many different opinions and experiances.
so assuming a 675l tank x5 = 3375lph, allowing for fall off i would estimate you are going to need a pump in the 5000l to 7500l region but again a pump expert would know better what kind of fall off you you will get with smaller pumps.
Roddy
Thanks for the shed link - although I will almost certainly get my regular chippie to make something to fit if I go down that route. That way I can make it as big as I can get away with! :whistling:
So you think that as long as I make sure there is plenty of flow in the tank (I'm thinking 2, or possibly even more, Vortechs here) then I should get away with a much lower flow rate? :thumbsup: Excellent news - makes the project viable again. Woohoo - we're on the move! :D
I've been using TMC's website which has some great info on calculating head heights and flow rates through different sizes of pipe etc. I've been using these figures I come up with to spec up one of the Argonaut range of pumps, mainly just 'cause they have head/flow graphs on the website for them. I don't know how efficient these are, and once I have definite flow/head figures I will look for alternatives, but they should give me a ball-park idea of the wattage's I'm looking at.
So - next area of confusion. I know you are an ardent fan of fairly frequent water changes, and attribute your success in part to this strategy. Others claim to hardly ever do a water change, and seem to also have lovely tanks. So how does that work then?:confused: What determines how often water changes are needed? Obviously rising undesirable water parameters should be a guide as to when a water change is needed, but what influences that? Is it the type of algae grown? The growth rate achieved? Use of other filtration media? Additives of some kind? Purely down to stocking?
Surely there has to be some logic to the seemingly very different maintenance routines that produce good results? Any ideas?
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