View Full Version : Pisces MM system
I am about the set up my new system with a mud/algae sump so I was really pleased to get some background info on it before I start.
Just to add, my sump will be approx. 36"x12" and have a small inlet bay containing filter floss and bioballs, a large mud/algae section of approx. 24" which I will be filling with Carib Sea Mineral Mud and cheato, a further small bay again filled with bio balls to help prevent the cheato from getting drawn into the pump, and finally a small bay housing the pump. I am going for an Eheim Compact + 5000 pump which seems to be quite efficient for a relatively high output unit. I do have an MCE600 skimmer on standby should it be needed but hopefully this will not be the case as I do plan on keeping the system as natural as possible. I will however be using a rowa reactor (FR509) and also carbon which I will keep in media bags in the final bay, and an auto top up will be employed for RO water.
The display tank will be 48"x18"x24" so I expect the total system volume to be in the region of 400 litres. Water movement will come in the form of a Vortech MP40W Gen 2 powerhead and I am lighting the tank with 8 x Aquaray LED's (4 pairs!) so this should prove interesting! 40kg of live rock will also be used in the display tank. Just can't wait to get it up and running now. :dance:
Just as a matter of interest, would anyone recommend using live rock rubble in the first and third chambers instead of the bio balls?
Hi Pisces
This is what I have done. I used bioballs on the first chamber to mash up any detritus etc and then flow into the mud filter. I have put live rubble in the final chamber before the return. I have used chaeto on top of the live rubble with caulerpa while in the mud filter I have used just caulerpa. It has grown over 3 to 4 inches in less than two months.
I also have a small phosphate reactor and I am planning to use carbon every now and then but so far I havent had any yellowing of the water.
Good luck with the build
J
pisces
you still need the bioballs as a filtration mechanism but as they float they only take up the top half of the chamber. nothing to stop you filling the bottom with LR rubble as long as it does not impede flow.
Roddy
OK my new sump will be in the region of 36"x12" with the mud/algae area being approx 24"x12". How much light will I need for this if wanting to grow cheato? I have also read that it is best to light this type of macro algae for around 10 hours a day. Does this sound right?
I would also appreciate any suggestions as to a suitable light unit which I could use.
Hi Pisces
You can light chaeto with many different lights - from environlights, energy saving lamps, T5's etc. I currently have two 24w T5 and two 55w compact T5's on my algae and I light the sump 24/7 but during the day I reduce the lighting to just the 55w compacts - these are old and quite yellow which is great for algae growing.
Over the last few months I have had good growth from the algae. The MM method uses 24/7 lighting on the sump but of course you can modifiy what suits you best.
If you light the sump during the night that would be reversing the CO2 build up due to respiration in the main display.
J
Wow, that seems like a lot of light for a sump! Is it really necessary to have so much? I was thinking about maybe having a 55W compact unit but now I'm not so sure this will be sufficient? :(
The miracle mud method uses banks of such lights I suspect to get the maximum growth and hence nutrient export out of the algae. This is where such information would be useful. Chaeto grows under most lighting conditions so I have been told. I am using caulerpa algae with a little chaeto mixed in there.
Both are growing really well - but I assume that you can get the same results with lower amounts of light
J
Right well that makes sense then and is more along the lines of what I had heard previously. Thanks for clearing that up!
So what are the advantages of growing caulerpa as opposed to chaeto? I had heard that caulerpa goes sexual if not lit properly which is why you have to light it 24/7, but with chaeto this is not the case and so it can be lit for 10 hours a day. Does caulerpa have better nutrient absorption potential than chaeto?
I think that it is down to personal preferences really chaeto has a sponge effect when it is growing in a mat while caulerpa roots into the mud which has a positive effect on the dynamics of the mud conditions - i.e. bring oxygen into the mud (as suggested by the Ecosystem methodology)
You are right that caulerpa can go sexual but this may be due to changes in salinity and pH and it is often said that its goes over when not lit 24/7.
Chaeto can be used over live rubble - well caulerpa grows over this at the moment in my live rubble compartment.
J
Cheato and caulerpa will grow under fairly low light, this does not mean it is growing at optimal rate however. If you intend your tank to be a real ecosystem (no skimmer) then you need the growth to be at optimal levels to cope with nitrate and phosphate. therefore get an envirolight as this will provide maximum growth rate.
Some species of Caulerpa will go sexual under 24/7 lighting but many will tolerate it.
species to avoid are grape and disk ( c. Racemosa and C.Peltata IIRC)
the softer/spongier species seem to be the ones to avoid IMHO.
in our sump we have 3 main species of algae Cheato, Razor and blade (c. prolifera) all three survive along with many different types of turf algae and sponges. I don't try and control this in anyway i just prune back every 2 weeks or so.
If you need a starter culture just send us a stamped/self addressed jiffy bag and we will post it next time we prune back.
Roddy
Some species of Caulerpa will go sexual under 24/7 lighting but many will tolerate it.
Roddy,
I thought lighting caulerpa 24/7 was to prevent it going asexual?
John
Superb! Great advice and thanks for the offer. I will certainly take you up on that when I get up and running. :thanks:
John
Asexual reproduction is fine in caulerpa it sexual reproduction that's the problem. when light 24/7 caulerpa does not get a rest phase where it would produce c02 and consume oxygen. for the purposes of a filtration system this is a good thing. however this is stressful to the caulerpa and eventually causes it to go into sexual reproduction mode.
here's a qoute from a scientific paper i found.
Reproduction:
Reproduction in Caulerpa brachypus is believed to be similar to other members of the genus. Asexual reproduction by means of fragmentation leading to the production of clonal individuals is by far the most common means of propagation. Sexual reproduction in members of the genus occurs only rarely. When a clonal individual enters into sexual reproductive mode, nearly the entire protoplast of the clone is converted into gametes and the clone dies (ANSTF 2004)
so for a refugium we want species that are tolerant to 24/7 lighting. Other factors could also stress the caulerpa to the point of sexual reproduction as well but light is the most likely in a stable home aquarium using tropical species of caulerpa.
haveing first hand experiance of grape going sexual i always have a skimmer handy and would advise everyone else to do likewise.
HTH
Roddy
As i am going to use chaeto instead of caulerpa, I take it this does not apply? I had planned on lighting th sump in reverse to the main display for 10 hours a night, say from midnight at total lights out until 10:00 am. Am I on the right lines here?
dan-the-man
15-11-08, 10:17
What's your photo period for the main tank? I have the reverse lighting on overlapping the main tank lights by one hour.
John
Asexual reproduction is fine in caulerpa it sexual reproduction that's the problem. when light 24/7 caulerpa does not get a rest phase where it would produce c02 and consume oxygen. for the purposes of a filtration system this is a good thing. however this is stressful to the caulerpa and eventually causes it to go into sexual reproduction mode.
here's a qoute from a scientific paper i found.
Reproduction:
Reproduction in Caulerpa brachypus is believed to be similar to other members of the genus. Asexual reproduction by means of fragmentation leading to the production of clonal individuals is by far the most common means of propagation. Sexual reproduction in members of the genus occurs only rarely. When a clonal individual enters into sexual reproductive mode, nearly the entire protoplast of the clone is converted into gametes and the clone dies (ANSTF 2004)
so for a refugium we want species that are tolerant to 24/7 lighting. Other factors could also stress the caulerpa to the point of sexual reproduction as well but light is the most likely in a stable home aquarium using tropical species of caulerpa.
haveing first hand experiance of grape going sexual i always have a skimmer handy and would advise everyone else to do likewise.
HTH
Roddy
Thanks for that Roddy - a misunderstanding on my part. I understood the two ways to be (a) fragmentation and (b) sexual/asexual. It seems it should be (a) fragmentation/asexual and (b) sexual.
However, now I can get the terminology right(!), I thought 24/7 lighting was used to prevent sexual reproduction i.e. when the algae bed effectively collapses.
As an example, my advice re 24/7 lighting has been based on my experiences where I have had a partial Caulerpa racemosa bed collapse (2/3 times over an 18 month period) and reproduce sexually in a display tank which was obviously exposed to a day/night regime, and on the same system, the caulerpa in the sump (lit 24/7) never reproduced sexually that I am aware of. I'm pretty sure I have seen this advice given out by a number of others too.
I wonder if the 24/7 is a myth perpetuated by some aquarists' anecdotal rather than scientific evidence?
John
dan-the-man
15-11-08, 11:16
Why not just use cheato instead of caulerpa? :confused:
i'm afraid we have reached the limits of my plant biology. All i know is that some caulerpa's go sexual in response to environmental stress. 24/7 is clearly unnatural but then 18 hours a day is pretty unnatural for a tropical species as well. 12 hours a day would be the natural way to do it but then it would only be helping half the time and be detrimental the other half.
so it's just safer to find a species that will withstand 24/7. even if you chosse not to run 24/7 it stands to reason that that species is not likely to sexual under 18 hours a day either. Of course the opposite could be true as well by providing optimal conditions you are encouraging the caulerpa to go sexual, in the same way that people running moonlight simulators have had increased instances of coral spawning to the detriment of the tank.
So perhaps what we are striving for is sub optimal conditions to get optimal growth. All i can say for sure is that in 5 years of running the algae we have under 24/7 it has never gone sexual.
Dan - the reason i don't use purely cheato is because i prefer to use a multi species approach and let the algae decide which species is best suited to the environmental conditions in the tank. if one species was superior to the other then it would eventually outcompete it and we would have a mono culture. However so far in 5 years of using the mixed bed approach i still have 3 species of algae present. the ratio does vary depending on setup however as we had very little chaeto under the asl power compact but more under the envirolight (but still way less than the razor Caulerpa which has just gone nuts)
Roddy
Here is an idea why not reduce the lighting or turn off the lighting for short periods to reduce the stress to the algae?
I thought that changes in salinity and other factors would be more likely to cause caulerpa to go sexual rather than 24/7 lighting.As you say 24/7 lighting isn't natural but to maximise algae growth and stop CO2 build up during the night lighting it on reverse periods or in long bursts with small breaks of darkness would possibly help. Plenty of agitation in the main display possibly would deal with the CO2 build up.
Something else to test O2, pH, Alk and DKH during 24/7 for a period of days and then reverse lighting -
J
ourmanflint
17-11-08, 19:15
What's your photo period for the main tank? I have the reverse lighting on overlapping the main tank lights by one hour.
Dan
do you find this really does help stabilise pH drops overnight?
Rod
OK here is the design for my mud/algae sump which is about to go into production. Any comments before it does and it's too late? :whistling:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/brinno/Sumpdesign2.jpg?t=1227190800
how deep is the mudbed going to be as your slot is only 120mm of the bottom. you want a little bit of space between the bed and the slot to avoid silt being kicked up so in this sump the bed would be no more than 90mm deep ( which is plenty IMHO)
is there some sort of rack to hold the bioballs? they will float so as long as the slot is narrower than a bioball you dont need anything holding them.
i would drop the downside to 100mm and put extra space on your return section to minimise level fluctuations which will cause micro bubbles in the main tank also gives you a bit more leaway if the auto topup runs dry. the downside only needs to be big enough to work in if need be.
other than that it looks pretty good.
Roddy
OK points taken on board. Would this be better?
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/brinno/Sumpdesignrevised.jpg?t=1227527392
Just a last thing to add, I need the space in the final compartment to house my skimmer for use in emergencies!
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