pH suppression, CO2 and O2 issues

[Haile S]

HI,

I’m interested in oxygen, CO2 and PH issues and how they relate to stocking levels in unskimmed tanks.

My tank is fairly lightly stocked with good water movement and the room is well ventilated, however my ph was at one stage fluctuating between 7.65-7.85 indicating I think high CO2 and maybe low oxygen. I resolved this by adding a Kalk stirrer and the PH went up 0.2 in 12 hours and stabilised around 8-8.2. But I’m not sure whether this is masking an underlying problem of high co2 and low o.

There seems to be a huge variation in the stocking levels of the naturally filtered tanks I’ve seen on here with some being lightly stocked and others being stocked as heavily as overskimmed berlin tanks so I was wondering how people got away with such heavy stocking and what their levels of nitrates / phosphates were.

[dan-the-man]

I think the main problem with them is the low pH issue. I also relate this back to the the high CO2. However, the majority of Leng systems (yes I'm going to keep calling them that), are softie based, hence generally lower flow than SPS based setups.

It would be interesting to see some SPS dominated Leng systems (if any), and the pH issues they have (if any).

I don't personally see the lack of skimming as something of a negative that will massively decrease pH, but adequete flow - oh yes. This also goes hand in hand with something else I want to put across - that some softies will tolerate extremely high flow, much higher than most think, and I've found that increasing flow (particularly surface aggitation) will increase pH and resolve high CO2.

[Haile S]

I think the main problem with them is the low pH issue. I also relate this back to the the high CO2. However, the majority of Leng systems (yes I'm going to keep calling them that), are softie based, hence generally lower flow than SPS based setups.

It would be interesting to see some SPS dominated Leng systems (if any), and the pH issues they have (if any).

I don't personally see the lack of skimming as something of a negative that will massively decrease pH, but adequete flow - oh yes. This also goes hand in hand with something else I want to put across - that some softies will tolerate extremely high flow, much higher than most think, and I've found that increasing flow (particularly surface aggitation) will increase pH and resolve high CO2.

My tank is a mix of SPS and LPS with some star polyps, zoos and xenia. AFAIK softies don't need Calc reactors and my problem was my system's inability deal with the CO2 from the calc reactor rather than the co2 being produced naturally by the system. Some muds claim that they can provide sufficeint calcium to do without calc reactors even for SPS however i'm not sure that this claim can be substantiated...

[Cranners]

I was looking at the system for ease of maintenance and I hope to reduce running costs. I was looking at skimmed system originally but have decided to go without a skimmer. Yes it removes gunk and it may increase oxygenation over night I needed some cash to purchase a new coral so I sold the skimmer.

With the algae bed lit 24 hours a day I thought that the pH levels were maintained due to the utilisation of Co2 and production of O2 - rather than a net increase in Co2 which is what happens with tanks without sumps for example my RSM has a pH swing during the day from a low 7.8 (morning) up to 8.2-8.3 just as the lights go out.

I am thinking I will be using the balling method to replace calcium and magnesium using a grotech dosing pump - I may try the balling lite method where 10% water changes will readdress the balance.

My corals will be mainly LPS and soft corals with a few SPS in there aswell - I am not going to get many SPS to grow in my tank probably as I will be using LEDs Aquarays or Aquabeam 500's (there are other threads to discuss this look at the lighting forum)

Regards


J

[Cranners]

Leng's article (from ecosystem website articles) (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/articles/Development%20History.pdf)

More articles (from the ecosystem website) (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/articles/A%20Novel%20Reef-Keeping%20Method.pdf)
Back to nature M Paletta (Ecosystem website articles) (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/articles/Back%20To%20Nature.pdf)

[dan-the-man]

co2 being produce naturally by the system

co2 being produced naturally by what? For the muds to produce calcium they would need to be in an acidic environment, so I don't buy into this claim at all.

Cranners, your setup sounds good, but I'd go with the Balling method. Your pH swing sounds rather large as well, can you reduce this?

[Haile S]

co2 being produced naturally by what? For the muds to produce calcium they would need to be in an acidic environment, so I don't buy into this claim at all.

co2 is a product of respiration by livestock such as fish 24/7 and algae when the lights are off.

I agree about the point about mud not producing calcium even in acidic conditions it would also have to be calcareous. some muds are but i think miracle mud is silicate based. i can remember seeing a non reviewed article which analysed the constituents of miracle mud and found it was mostly silicates with the miracle ingredient being iron. They found that its chemical and physical composition suggested that it had never been anywhere near the sea.

[Cranners]

Hi Dan

I think that the swings are much smaller than this now - I have been really busy at work and have not been keeping a real close eye on parameters - but recent tests have shown that the pH is around 8 which may dip to 7.9 over night. I will be checking this with a digital meter and salifert test kit.

I recently had a crash in the RSM of the pulsing xenia - plus bleaching of pavona and a few loss heads of duncan and zoas were closing up. My parameters were low - Ca 230ppm Mg = 1100 but alk was (wait for it ) over 5 and DkH was 16 - Plu sthe higher temperature was not helping.

I went into rescue mode - water changes 5% per day for 5 to 7 days - dosing magnesium and calcium -

I have saved the tank now - pH 8.03 digital meter, temp - 26.5C, Mag up to 1300+ppm and Ca was up but has dropped to 270ppm - still dosing that up with grotech instant calcium - this was dosed in RO water and then the rest is being fed into the system via the auto top up.

I am definitely putting an auto top up on the Leng System with balling methods - so that would be a daily water change - with the grotech doser can you use this to dose the balling salts and then use this to remove the excess followed by topping up with RO?

I will be manually dosing the tank and will be working out the Ca and Mg usage so I can then get the grotech doser and balling salts dosed at the correct amounts.

I am also going to use a vortech gen 2 pump on the system - plenty of flow there then. On my frag system which will be plumbed into the main system and sump I will have a 4400lph seio pump which should be more than enough flow in there.

J

[dan-the-man]

co2 is a product of respiration by livestock such as fish 24/7 and algae when the lights are off

Ah I see, thought you were talking of the algae in particular. :doh:

I remember a high concentrate of Iron also, it would be interesting to see what happened if the higher algae or chaeto was removed from the system...

[dan-the-man]

Cranners, all sounds good. The grotech doser would be able to take out the required amount as well as add it. Look forward to seeing the pics! :)

[Cranners]

Another non scientific article this time regarding SPS and MM systems (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/articles/A%20Report%20and%20Summary.pdf)

[Haile S]

Another non scientific article this time regarding SPS and MM systems (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/articles/A%20Report%20and%20Summary.pdf)

Thanks for the articles. With the exception of the paleta piece I’m not sure what any of them add. the other authors of papers seem to do less testing of their water quality than the average UR member. As an absolute minimum I would like to know what the nitrate, phosphate and PH of these tanks were. None of them suggest let alone prove a causal relationship between
a) miracle mud and the removal of nitrates, phosphates and ammonia
b) miracle mud and promoting diverse micro fauna
c) miracle mud and cures for fish diseases
d) miracle mud and calcium supplementation

I think that its safe to say that it is macro algal growth that contributes to removal of phosphates, nitrates and maybe ammonia, that the only contribution miracle mud makes to the removal of nitrates and phosphates is as an algae fertiliser and that the constituent of miracle mud that acts as an algae fertiliser is iron.

I think that mud based systems promote micro fauna in the following ways. Firstly the lack of skimming provides food in the proteins and bacteria that would otherwise become skimmate and that skimming may or may not manually remove micro-fauna (plenty of people disagree with this point). Secondly macro algae provides an excellent medium for cultivating a diverse range of micro fauna. In sum it is not skimming and macro algae that facilitate a diverse micro fauna.

I suspect that Leng Sy knew all this but realised that he would not get very far selling macro algae on ebay and decided to market his miracle product instead. Lets also remember that after spending years suggesting that skimmers were harmful he then went on to market them as part of a hybrid ecosystem, further discrediting mud based systems and leading people to suggest that he now believed that they could not manage a reef tank without a skimmer. The reality I fear is that there were bucks to be made by selling skimmers with his miracle products.

The claims about calcium supplementation through using miracle mud is clearly impossible because there is very little calcium in it. I can’t see how miracle mud can cure diseases such as hlle. some substance produced by macro algae could help treat or prevent diseases but no evidence has been provided.

Imo having a strong growth of macro algae is what is important and most of the mud products use iron as a key fertiliser. The main difference is that most mud products do not make exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims, some mud products are calcareous and therefore have at least the potential to contribute to calcium management whilst others cost 4 times as much. Rather than fixating on particular products we could look at how issues such as flow, light, co02 etc affect the growth of macro algae and thereby the health of our tanks.

[gtb]

Cranners, your setup sounds very nice, have you got a build up thread going for it, wouldn't mind read through if you do.

i'm setting up an 'natural filtration' system at the moment using a MM based sump,

i'm going to be around 60% LPS and 40% SPS,
and am also going to be using the Balling method

but am looking to use the new GHL stand alone dosing pumps:

http://www.firststopaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/ghldossingsmall.gif

the 4 pump unit is just over £300, so you can use 3 for the balling supplements, and one to remove the excess water
it works out cheaper than buying the GroTech unit and having to buy an add on, so may be worth you looking at it if you havn't already got the GroTech unit.

Matt.

[Cranners]

Hi there

I will be putting up my build soon

I wil be looking for those dosing pumps that looks the business thansk for that

J

[Haile S]

I once saw a list of minerals contained in miracle mud with their percentages, I'm struggling to find it now though, anyone seen it?

found it,

the analysis is here http://www.reefs.org/library/article/mm_analysis.html (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/mm_analysis.html)

discussion of it here http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3964& (http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3964&)

makes interesting reading

[dan-the-man]

Good post Haile.

The claims of MM decreasing hlle is unsubstantiated imo, although I'd be interested to know if Iron intake or concentration is an affecting factor in hlle...

My feeling with regard to the micro fauna is this:

The mud is a perfect environment for most - very fine, almost silty, and also the refugium is just that - a refuge for micro fauna with no aquarist introduced predators.

If I was able I'd like to compare the micro fauna in my skimmerless tank now, and after the addition of a KZ skimmer, which are meant to be 'plankton' freindly and are highly recommended for use with ULNS.

[Haile S]

Hi Dan

I can remember reading somewhere that people had observed some improvement in hlle in algal turf scrubber tanks, so it may be related to algae and again i'm not sure if its the presence of algae or feeding algae to the fish that is the issue.

I can't see whats going on in my mineral mud bed although its developed a ½ inch sediment layer over the last year. I am considering whether or not to vacuum this but as nitrates are 0-0.5 I’ll probably leave it alone. The life in my chaeto seems to be changing as the system develops there has always been a mix of bristleworms, pods and brittlestars but recently there seems to have been a decrease in the bristleworms and an increase in the brittlestars.

Not sure about plankton friendly skimmers some say theres no such thing whilst others say theyre all plankton friendly. Imo one of the main advantages of skimmerless systems is that they don’t remove the bacteria and proteins that the micro fauna feed upon.

cheers,

Leroy

[Haile S]

Are we allowed to post links to other forums?

i found this very interesting thread on Reef Park
http://www.reefpark.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5664

i'm sure they had a natural reefing section but it seems to have disappeared

[zimreef]

Now separated from the feedback thread.

John