View Full Version : Mixed sediment questions
I for one will be posting my ecosystem set up on here - I have just made my sump out of an old clearseal tank which used to be a berlin method sump - i.e. it had an APF600 in it - I have rearranged the sump baffles to allow for a large algae bed and pretty much nothing else apart from the return pump -
I have managed to get the baffles a bit wonky - is that going to be a problem with flow through or something?
I plan to use bioballs within the baffles to smash and capture detritus and to prevent the algae from blocking the return pump.
I have read that the water flow needs to be ideally 5 x the system volume or was that the display volume per hour.
I have an OR 3500 so I hope that will provide enough - I have calculated that 5 x the display volume would amount to 2500 litres per hour - so I hope that I have enough margin after the calculation of the head of the pipe work.
Now what type of algae is best? I think that chaetomorpha is probably the best isnt it? or does that get too thick?
What sort of sediment would you use? I thought about mixing Miracle mud with fine sands perhaps or should I just use completely miracle mud?
J
Here is a diagram of what i have done to an old sump given to me by julou
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8185/sumpjm3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Any comments at all
J
Is that to scale? Have you allowed enough spare volume fo any drain-down? Your second to last baffle which controls the water height in the sump seems kinda high.
John
Hi Zimreef
I was copying a diagram from a book showing an ecosystem - which had the flow drain into the sump through the split baffle on the left which flows into the algae and sediment then rises up and over the baffle to provide more volume before being returned to the display tank.
The diagram isnt to scale though I can replace the larger sized baffle with a shorter baffle - I see what you mean about the drain down - A slight miscalculation perhaps. I need to work out the amount of water that would drain from the display tank if the return pump failed - and see if there is enough space for that water to fill into the sump.....
Thanks
J
Okay after a little panic about the water volume - I have taken that around 1.5 to 3 inches of the surface of the display tank would be around 14.8 to 29.6 litres of drain down water. I have calculated that the sump has a total volume of 126.3 litres if filled to the top of the tank.
Around two thirds of this volume is the refugium - so I hope that I will have enough room for any drained down water from the main display - which is a 2ft cube - well actually it is 23x22x24 - I have roughly calculated the volume of drain down would be around 14.8 to 29.6 litres depending where I position the drain in the main display.
So fingers crossed I will have enough room in the sump for that.....do i need to drop the water level in the sump?
J
I think it is a great idea add a natural section on here as information is quite hard to come by and would also be good to able to share ideas, system, and filtration details.
I am just setting up a aragamud mud based system now and have had my fuge maturing in a small arcylic tank for a few weeks ready to move over to my main tank when its finished (I thought it would be good to get a head start :thumbsup:). I have a tunze 9002 on my holding tank currently and may keep this to run for a few hours a day until the bed is fully matured although I am wondering if it will do more harm than good!!???
I have just started a tank thread for it also so will be posting a lot more about my setup as and when things progress.
Is that to scale? Have you allowed enough spare volume fo any drain-down? Your second to last baffle which controls the water height in the sump seems kinda high.
John
floods ahoy, i agree with zimreef you need to allow for alot more drain down/back syphon
Ouch! pesky baffle was a ****** to get out. I have replaced this baffle with a shorter baffle to give alot more room for drain down/back syphon.
I have still mad eit higher than the normal baffle height this sump had but not as tall as I did have it.
thanks for that
J
Cranners, when you say you are thinking of mixing miracle mud and a fine sand, do you literaly mean mixing it, or do you mean having multiple layers of different sediments?
Matt
I am not sure - I would imagine that you can mix it and then it will settle in the sump into the layers according to the size of the particles - If you layer the sand and mud the meiofauna will eventually mix it when they are established.
I can find references to such mixes which offer the same results as MM
J
Yeah, it was something i was thinking of doing myself,
I going to be running a 5x2 sump on my new system so i can get as large a mud section as possible, so contemplated mixing some fine sand with the mud to give some diversity.
I also thought about mixing sand+mud but then found aragmud which I believe is mineral mud mixed with aragamax sugar sized - it looks like it anyway but I could be wrong. I was then planning on adding a coarser layer on top of this to help keep everything rooted and also provide a more varied substrate for the range of life in the bed.
Yeah I found that produce on First stop
Aragamud (http://www.firststopaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/CaribSea_Aragamud_.html)
Mineral Mud (http://www.firststopaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/Mineral_Mud.html)
Which products would people recommend?
J
miracle mud but it costs alot
Why not mix the different products?
Mineral Mud, Miracle Mud and Aragamud?
J
dxmarinefish
19-08-08, 22:54
I have mixed MM and CaribSea Original Grade" Caribbean Live Sand in my 4ft sum/fug with brilliant results so far.
MM is a commercial brand while Ecosystem is a scientific term that refers to a natural environment composed of many components that sustain life be it terrestrial or marine life.
I believe that what ever substrate used should be one that creates a balance ripe enough to sustain the necessary life required to maintain our marine ecosystem. Most mud based substrates are composed of many minerals, etc that slowly release into the water. most marine substrates also do the same and thus mixing cannot pose too much a deficit to any ecosystem. The key here is balance, husbandry skills and knowledge of all the sub-components that make up our man-made ecosystem.
Here it is when i 1st set it up in feb 08. Note that I have since increased the height of the substrate to 4":
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q3/DSCF1271.jpg
This is it in may 08 -sorry image is not da best ;):
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q3/DSCF1396.jpg
:thanks:
Hi all
I have maanged to ge tmy sump in place and have plumbed the pipe work - a simple drain and then return via an OR3500.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2470/dsc00915db0.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00915db0.jpg)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1937/dsc00916pe9.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00916pe9.jpg)
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7518/dsc00918as8.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00918as8.jpg)
Thanks to 'Julou' or julian for his help today. I will hopefully have a wet test tomorrow or Tuesday......
J
Going back to the mixing of substrates,
If you had the space for a large sump, would it be benificial by having a seperate section for a mud and algae based area, and another section with your regular style DSB?
Instead of just one mixed up substrate area.
Would this work, or would they fight against each other?
Thought i would ask here seeing as we dont have an ecosystem section :whistling: :D
dxmarinefish
05-09-08, 21:39
Not sure about that one gtb. Cant see an issue of any conflict though as both substrates would perform their function. Mm does state that one of its advantages is that it can perform the function of a DSB with about half the depth that would be required if using regular sand, so both could work.
My system is a hybrid of this, with the DSB in the main display tank.
If i had the luxury of having a separate "fish room" i would have this system you propose. I actually would have 3-4 sums/refugiums with total volume about 5 times the actual display tank.
My display is going to be 5x3x2, and was thinking of a sump consiting of one 3x2 section of MM and algae, one 3x2 section with a DSB, and one 4x2 live rock tank.
I am going to put a DSB or just a sand bed in the main display, mud & algae in the sump and of course the live rock filtration with plenty of flow I hope that this will filtrate the water. I also have a larger section in my sump where I could put carbon or phosphate remover if required. I may also buy a small HOB skimmer for any disasters but I am hoping that the algae will establish itself well enough to take out the nutrients. I have been told that lighting the algae 24/7 may be a bit stressful for the algae - so giving it a break from light would help it grow better. It has been suggested that a 4 hour period during the daytime to give the algae a 'break'.
I was wondering whether there is any sense in that? I thought maybe test this out while I am playing with the tank and sump. I thought could I compare the growth rates of algae under the different regimes - 24/7 and then 20/7 with a 4 hour break?
I have got my tank 1/3 full with RO at the moment - still producing some more RO at the moment probably get another 25 litres into the tank by the end of the night....
J
what algae are you using in your sump?
I am going to use Caulerpa rooted into the mud. I also have some chaeto which I can use while the caulerpa establishes itself
J
I have now filled my tank and have salted up the water after checking for leaks. I have played with the sump for hours today. I have filled the sump with my stored liverock and I have put the algae into the sump so I can clear away the holding tank.
I need some advise on damping down a noisy drain - I have a standpipe and I wondered whether the noise will be reduced when I get the bioballs into the first chamber?
J
Is the pipe underwater in the sump? Or splashing the water on top?
Where's the noise coming from? The exit from the display or the entry into the sump?
John
Right my sump ha sbeen fine tuned and I have got a nice running water sound not too loud. The drain goes under water I have put some bioballs in that chamber I need to get more in there to disperse the air bubbles being generated.
I have also placed the miracle mud into the sump I got 10lbs worth in there just about an inch all over the refugium chamber. I am now cycling the tank and Iw ill be adding algae in approx 2 weeks time.
I also have more LED's on this set up now - I have three whites and three blues and the effect is really good. A nice shimmer and the light penetrates the water well. Obviously they arent as powerful as Halides.
I have my live rock in there approx 14kg which is laying on the tank bottom. I am going to position these rocks up the drain with a few plates sticking out of the column and hopefully a wall will form from the corner into the middle of the tank.
I plan to use egg crate to support the rock work with PVC piping and cable ties to secure the underlying rock structure. Once I have cycled the tank I will be transferring over stock from the Red Sea Max. Probably start off with some hermits and turbo snails. I have some nassarius snails should I add these to the main display or into the miracle mud?
I also intend to scoop some substrate from the RSM to seed the miracle mud it has lots and lots of worms in there.
Eventually th echange over will happen over several months. I now need to get some new test kits to monitor the parameters.
J
My Miracle mud sump is up and running now for almost a month and things seem to be going okay. I am taking this slowly though - my live rock was cured in aholding tank for several months mainly because I hadnt had the time to set the tank up.
Its set up with the live rock placed onto egg crate. There is low ammonia <0.25ppm, and Nitrates are 0ppm. I have placed some clean up crew into the display.
Wheres the forum then?
J
Great news!
I am culturing a nice crop of flatworms and my caulerpa has started to take root and bud new blades. My system is very simple I have 6 LED's on main display, and OR 3500 return pump. On the filter I have two 24w T5's and two compact 55w T5's (old lamps). I will have around 20kg of live rock and a shallow sand bed in the main display. I will need a sand bed deep enough to allow my leopard wrasse to sleep.
I will be using the balling method with a GHL stand alone doser and I will be using my auto top up from my RSM.
Stock list
Fish - 1x Splendid Leopard Wrasse (hoipefully with a male), bangai cardinal - female, pair of false clowns, Royal Gramma
I would like to ask whether I can get other wrasses with the splendids? Will I need to add them all at the same time?
I am using my RSM at the moment to hold the stock until I feel that the new system can cope.
I wondered if the addition of a fish or two will help the algae in the filter?
J
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