View Full Version : fitting a Sump on a RSM
Hi guys,
Has anyone done this? I have the original RSM with the cut away in the back for a chiller but not seen the accessory which enables the fitment.
I would really like to fit a sump utilising the same accessory,
does anyone know where to get the fitting from or has anyone fitted a sump successfully to a RSM and if so do you have any designs.
cheers
Linds
ericbell46
20-12-08, 01:40
I think the RSM cabinet is crying out for a refugium. I, like you have no designs for it, but the accessory kit on the rsm webite seems to allow for an outlet from the tank, and a return. They suggest it could be used for external filters, chillers or UV filter etc. I'm sure there will be a way to use this to feed and return from a tank down below in the cabinet maybe a syphon to get the water down and a pump to get it back up again (with anti-flooding safeguards). As you say (or think) there must be somebody out there that has done this and will have practical experience. If you do get any further with this please keep me posted.
cheers
External filters, chillers and UV filters operate as a closed loop i.e. the circuit is "sealed" so that if the pump supplying them stops for whatever reason the pipes to/from the appliance remain full of water until the pump is restarted.
Sumps necessarily have to operate in a different fashion, so water is pumped from the sump to the main tank then under gravity overflows back into the sump to complete the cycle. If the sump return pump stops for whatever reason, the pipes feeding the sump empty. Setting up a syphon to feed the sump may seem an option, but is definitely not a solution and will lead to a wet floor, probably sooner rather than later.
It would be possible to set a sump feed up using an overflow box but these are generally fairly bulky items that unless custom made would probably not fit the cut away you're talking about. Another option would be to drill the tank itself. However, this is not a decision to be taken lightly as most of these types of tank are built using a minimum thickness of glass to keep the costs down and drilling may compromise the strength and lead to a panel breaking.
As you say, the cabinet appears to be crying out to be sumped, but I don't know of anyone who has done it, and google doesn't return any definite info that I can find either.
John
ericbell46
20-12-08, 17:46
Thanks John. I wouldn't for one minute dream of drilling the tank. After all the RSM is meant to be a complete and self contained system. I was just thinking that if a sump could be added reasonably easily it might be worth looking at, mainly to grow chaeto. Since nobody seems to have done it 1. it's not worth the bother, or 2. it's time somebody did. As I said in my first post I havent given a lot of thought to the doing of it, only the possible benefits. Maybe I'll get my pioneering head on and have a go. A syphon would be safe if it's inlet was only a short distance under the tank's water level. This would limit the amount of water that could be delivered downstairs, thus preventing the lower tank from overflowing if the pump stopped. Of course to keep the circulation going up from the pump would have to equal the feed to the sump. Just early thoughts, but I would appreciate a discussion of this on here:)
cheers
No worries! :)
A syphon would be safe if it's inlet was only a short distance under the tank's water level. This would limit the amount of water that could be delivered downstairs, thus preventing the lower tank from overflowing if the pump stopped.
Indeed, but how does the syphon restart when the pump starts pumping again?
Of course to keep the circulation going up from the pump would have to equal the feed to the sump.
It would have to match it pretty much exactly, which is pretty much impossible to do over a period of time with detritus build up in the pipes, pump prefilter clogging, deterioration in performance of the pump over time.
John
just-reefin
20-12-08, 18:46
Schuran make a overflow box which does away with the need to drill a tank. (see STM web site). Not sure how big they are or if they'd fit the rear of a RSM. Might be an idea tho!
HTH, Keith
ericbell46
20-12-08, 23:28
No worries! :)
Indeed, but how does the syphon restart when the pump starts pumping again?
It would have to match it pretty much exactly, which is pretty much impossible to do over a period of time with detritus build up in the pipes, pump prefilter clogging, deterioration in performance of the pump over time.
John
I know. A person would have to restart the syphon. A person would also have to find out and fix whatever it was that made pump stop. And, as I have previously said it would really have to be well thought out before trying to do it. What I need on this thread are ideas:thanks::thanks:
ericbell46
20-12-08, 23:31
Schuran make a overflow box which does away with the need to drill a tank. (see STM web site). Not sure how big they are or if they'd fit the rear of a RSM. Might be an idea tho!
HTH, Keith
Thanks Keith, as you say, it's summat to look at
cheers
A person would also have to find out and fix whatever it was that made pump stop.
What happens if it was just a short powercut and the pumps starts again when power is restored and when no-one is there to restart the syphon?
And, as I have previously said it would really have to be well thought out before trying to do it. What I need on this thread are ideas
I thought you were the ideas man! :P I can only think of reasons not to use a syphon - and perhaps because criticism of ideas is much easier than coming up with the ideas in the first place! Probably shows a complete lack of imagination on my part! :D
John
hi zimreef
a few guys in america run sumps,
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/red-sea-max-owners-club/40464-dsb-max.html
hope this helps
sorry about mentioning another forum :o:o:o
cheers
drew
Cool - just googled "RSM sump" again and there are quite a few hits so dunno what I was searching for yesterday! :o:rolleyes:
The couple I've had a look at run overflow boxes to feed the sump.
John
Thanks Guys,
I've obviously opened a huge can of worms here.
Perhaps the clever guys at Red Sea could offer a solution to this expecially as they've just bought out the 130D :whistling:
I'll have another google fest and see what I can come up with as I really don't want to start hanging stuff on the back of the tank if at all possible
ericbell46
23-12-08, 20:31
What happens if it was just a short powercut and the pumps starts again when power is restored and when no-one is there to restart the syphon?
I thought you were the ideas man! :P I can only think of reasons not to use a syphon - and perhaps because criticism of ideas is much easier than coming up with the ideas in the first place! Probably shows a complete lack of imagination on my part! :D
John
thanks John - it's easier to come up with ideas than it is to turn them into practical possibilities. That's why I asked the question. But the thread (thanks Linds) seems to have raised a bit of interest. Just had a quick look at some of the links you suggested, and immediately another idea came up - to use the overflow that comes with Max in some way. The top and bottom of it is that I don't really understand how overflow boxes work, never having used one. I had another idea the other night - has anybody tried to keep jellyfish? Possibly for a different thread:whistling:
cheers
hi eric
just asked these people http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html
to give me a delivered price to uk,they make one for the red sea max.
cheers
drew
thanks John - it's easier to come up with ideas than it is to turn them into practical possibilities. That's why I asked the question. But the thread (thanks Linds) seems to have raised a bit of interest. Just had a quick look at some of the links you suggested, and immediately another idea came up - to use the overflow that comes with Max in some way. The top and bottom of it is that I don't really understand how overflow boxes work, never having used one.
Lots of different ways to get water to the sump - apart from just the mechanics of it, keeping it quiet is another headache (pardon the pun!) :)
I had another idea the other night - has anybody tried to keep jellyfish? Possibly for a different thread
Jellyfish require a specialist tank setup - google "kreisel" if you're interested.
hi eric
just asked these people http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html
to give me a delivered price to uk,they make one for the red sea max.
cheers
drew
$144 including cover (plus delivery?) - wow!:eek:
John
hi guys,
Major breakthrough on the old research. there is a company called Life Reef, based in the US who make a sump overflow box specifically for the RSM and even supply a modified skimmer cover to accommodate the outflow pipe. here is the link. :applause:
http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html
A number of the guys on the US reef forum have already done this mod with great success. Their forum is reefsanctuary.com
cheers
Linds
I don't understand why these tanks can't just be drilled, they are 8mm glass are they not? these aftermarket weir boxes and such seem complicated and expensive.. I would either try to drill the tank or just save up for another tank designed to run a sump.
On my D+D 24G I opted not to drill the tank as I had all my stock in it at the time, so I went for a reverse sump: i.e where the sump sits higher than the tank and a pump pushes water upt to the sump which then returns it via gravity. This works very well but is quite untidy as your refugium/sump will be in plain view. See on my signiature for how I did it. I have since moved it futher back from the tank so it is less consipicuous but it is still not great, if I could go back i would now jsut get the tank drilled, they ahve done a few at my LFS and none have shattered.
Liked the idea about a sump for my rsm, so went for the lifereef ( not cheap £108 ) they have a version specifically for the rsm, gonna get it up and running in the next few day's so will let you know how well it works, but it does look the business. Just fitting the baffles to the sump now.
ps expect to pay an extra 26 quid for import tax and parcelforce handling charge (£8).
redseasteve
03-01-09, 06:43
Interesting thread. Obviously the RSM was designed to be a self contained system, but there are some threads around for people who have decided they prefer a sump. Regarding jellyfish, I believe they may prefer a specialist aquarium and I know Aquamedic makes an oval shaped tank with this in mind. Might be worth googling around to see if you can find out more, but I am not sure MAX is suitable.
Hi Steve,
I understand that the RSM is designed as a contained system, but as I'm sure you will appreciate, part of the thing with this hobby is the need to improve continuously. :D
Surely this is a marketing opportunity for Red Sea as well. Have you seen the Life Reef overflow? what are your thoughts on it?
cheers
Linds
Liked the idea about a sump for my rsm, so went for the lifereef ( not cheap £108 ) they have a version specifically for the rsm, gonna get it up and running in the next few day's so will let you know how well it works, but it does look the business. Just fitting the baffles to the sump now.
ps expect to pay an extra 26 quid for import tax and parcelforce handling charge (£8).
Let me know how you go with this one cos i'm thinking of doing the same. good luck with the project. Any chance of posting up some pics when you're done.:thanks:
Just finishing siliconing the baffles now so will be wet testing this time tomorrow, if things go to plan should have it running by next weekend, ( back 2 work Mon ) so will try to get some picks. there is some footage of an rsm with a sump and lifereef overflow on youtube, thats where I got the idea, its a cracking sump, mines is just a basic at the moment, but fancy sticking a diy carbon & phos reactor in there at a later date. so back to the silcone lol
Cool. sounds like a plan, have you got any sketches of your sump design. :whistling:
I've never made a sump before but my DIY skills aren't too bad.
I'll have a look on youtube as well
cheers
Okay got the sump up and running yesterday, isn't much to look at just now, basic water in; bubble trap baffles, more baffles and return, waiting for miricale mud and lamp to arrive, overflow is a bit noisy but nothing to bad, since the tank is in the dinning room, but now wanting to upgrade my return pump, it's only a 600l/ph so gonna get a 1000, once I've got the caron & phos reactors set up. Took some pics but they don't really show to much so will try and do some when I get the reactors set up.
Mannaged to get an extra 25ltrs in the sump, and my tunze 9002 is in there so gotta mod the access flap on the hood to accomadate the syphon pipe and that should be it for the time being. As for designing the sump just have a look on here, but don't think about anything to complicated.
Geo
Cheers Geo,
There was a lot of discussion the US site about noise from the overflow. The solution is to feed a piece of airline down the feed pipe until the noise stops. Seems to be an effective solution.
I'd be really interested in seeing your pics
Cheers
Linds
I thought that the tank couldnt be drilled as it is not strong enough or it would weaken the glass and cause a split along the rounded glass corners.
The only other way is to put an over head fuge pump it in and then feed it back to the RSM via gravity. I have a fuge overhead on my pico works a treat!
J
Hi Linds, redid the sump, used acrylic first time, but wasn't to keen on it, so fitted glass this time, and it a lot better, managed to reduce the noisy overflow by using solid pipe into the sump, just had the hose going from o/flow to sump, earlier, but it's now solid 21.5mm pipe from where the hose enter's the back of the cabinet, taken some pics, so just trying to work out how to post a pic on here, good with hammers, electrics, plumbing, but usless with pc's lol
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2009Q1/Sump3.jpg
Sussed the pics I think, will do a few more with the box, tomorrow, sumps looking empty just now, waiting on Miricale mud to arrive, and hoses, fittings etc for the phos reactor.
Got an Arcadia pod light but the bulb arrived bust so just waiting for the replacement, hopefully will have everything set up for this weekend. ( where have we heard that before ).
Geo
Hi Cranners, didn't have to drill the tank got a Lifereef overflow box from the States, and use it, nice bit of kit and built for the RSM and similar size tanks.
I added a sump to my RSM! I did it via 2 pumps a small one at the top and larger one in the sump, then just T it off to suit the pressure it worked fine but did require just checkin the kevels daily but I only ever had to adjust the valve when I did a water change.
Hi icechef, not keen on the double pump method, the main prob with sumps is a syphon starting when there's a power cut to the pump, I think if this happened to your system, the pump in the main tank would syphon most of your water into the sump, also over time the impelers will wear, pipes will become restricted, leading to more ajustments, check some of the comments on the diy threads and they definatly do not recommend the 2 pump method, ( I thought about using that method as well ).
Geo
Hi icechef, not keen on the double pump method, the main prob with sumps is a syphon starting when there's a power cut to the pump, I think if this happened to your system, the pump in the main tank would syphon most of your water into the sump, also over time the impelers will wear, pipes will become restricted, leading to more ajustments, check some of the comments on the diy threads and they definatly do not recommend the 2 pump method, ( I thought about using that method as well ).
Geo
Dont forget that the back of the rsm only holds a limited amount of water so will only drain that amount also you could just add a one way valve again there not recomened but as long as you take the time to clean everything regulary you wont have a prob I never, did ran smoothly as well!
Hi Dan, I know the back has a limited capacity but it is quite a bit, and you have to remember that all the water in the main display from top of water level to the bottom of the weir will also end up in the sump, ( over floor ). The one way valve isn't gonna work either because the flow direction is the direction of the valve. Don't want to constantly sound negative about your setup, I'mvery new to this (8 months), but really checked out the 2 pump method, and it was cheaper to buy a good overflow box than replace the new floor I've just laid, lol.
Good luck with the set up, but would advice an upgrade.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2009Q1/sump4_1.jpg
cheers Geo
Hi Geo
Just had a look at your pics...very neat, nice job. :thumbsup:
I'm convinced now, will order one of the life reef overflows and see how i get on. did you build the sump yourself or convert it from a standard small tank?
cheers
Linds
Hi Linds,
The sump was one a mate had but never used, 45 dergree at the sides, but just started the baffles there, giving plenty of room for return pump,skimmer, inlet filter, got carbon and filter floss at the intake, but gonna raid the wifes knicker drawer for a pair of tights to replace the filter floss.
Had a look at the American site you mentioned, lots of good info on it, and have a length of airline in the intake, as you said, and it seems to be a lot quieter, so thanks for that.
Good luck with getting your sump up and running, and let me know how you get on with it will try and help if I can. I'll post some more pics when I get the reactors up and running. I also ordered a auto top up this evening, as the sump does lose a lot more to evaporation, so worth having a think about that when you start getting the kit together.
cheers Geo
Hi Geo
Thanks for the update, I'm sure your wife will be ecstatic when she realises you have knicked her best stocking fir you sump :laugh:
I'm definately going to get an auto top up and have looked at the ones on ebay, but think i'll wait and get a tunze or aqua medic as they look so m uch more robust
I'll be ordering the overflow next week so will start to take some picks as i set this up.
The US is site very good for RSM stuff, they seem to be a bit ahead of us here.
looking forward to you next update.
cheers
L
Hi Linds,
you'll definatly need the top up I've been losing 1/2-3/4 ltr a day since sumping.
Your right about the american site, a lot less of the it's a plug and play, more lets see how we can improve it, and learn in the process. Only down side from doing this sump, and learning a lot more about the hobby is I now want a bigger tank, lol. So managed a deal with the wife when we get the new house I get at least a 4ft tank as a pressy.
Hoping all the equipment for the phos reactor and things will be here this week so will get some pics done then, might even get to spend some time and money on the display tank.
You should manage to set it all up no probs but if you need any advice I'll do what I can if you drop me a pm or on here. Looking forward to seeing what you do.
cheers
Geo
hi geo
looks like there is going to be a few rsm's with sumps in the uk !!!
i have a spare rsm and am going to use the spare cabinet next to my main display.
in the main cabinet i have a chiller and phos reactor running along with 2 dosing pumps running through my aquatronica setup
the 21x16x16in sump will be in the 2nd cabinet where the tunze 9005 will sit
just about to order the lifereef overflow unit so shouldn't be to long before i am up and running
cheers
drew
Hi Drew,
Wish I had a second cabinet it's getting pretty full in there, got the auto top up in now and miricale mud, cheato and lighting, now trying figure out where to put the phos & carbon reactors lol
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2009Q1/sump7.jpg
in the sump, really need to tidy those cables and hoses now.
Geo
hi geo
your setup looks great !!!!
the best thing i put in the main cabinet was the deltec phos reactor
the spare cabinet will have sump and topup system although i don't have a problem at the moment even with my 2 x aquaray strips in the front lid i have.
am i right in thinking a sump will cause evaporation ?
cheers
drew
it will cause more evaporation especially if it is uncovered, you could always try to get some glass covers for the sump which will reduce the evaporation sonewhat
any update on this
:thanks:
Hi from the states. It looks like several have found the LifeReef site over here, and the custom overflow/pre-filter made for the back of the RSM. I also run this siphon, and it was designed so there's no need to cut anything - it sits on the back rim. Since I run a raised hood I didn't have to worry about the hood closing or any cutouts in the skimmer flap. I ran the LifeReef with a sump/refugium for a while - an old 10 gallon (37 l) tank with a baffle kit from Ebay. But I trashed this as it ran very dirty for me. It may have just been the baffle design, plus putting refugium mud in. After going sumpless for a while I really missed being able to have all of my equipment down below and out of the back. Plus I missed the consistent water level in the tank and the back. All I have in the back now are the LifeReef siphon, and the 2 Red Sea circ. pumps.
It took a lot of searching but I finally found a sump that would fit in my 130 cabinet. I'm not sure if EShopps sumps are available over here, but their RS-75 sump fits nicely in my old 130 cabinet, and left me room for an ATO reservoir of about 2 gallons (~7.5 liters). I have a filter sock for mechanical filtration, a small fluidized bed reactor that I run Chemi-Pure Elite in, a custom Euro-Reef sump skimmer, my Tunze ATO, and my return pump is a Maxi-Jet 1100 utility pump. The LifeReef siphon has never failed to restart after I shut the pump off, and there's more than enough room to handle the water volume that siphons down when the pump shuts off. It's still a bit concerning that the siphon will always restart, or stops for some reason, but I no longer lose sleep worrying about it. Over here in the states the LifeReef siphon has a reputation of always restarting, but I do check the U-tube frequently to be sure it's not being plugged up by algae growth. So far no problems at all.
These are a few pictures of it when newly set up a couple months ago:
Without the ATO reservoir:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s205/mackwork/NewSump1.jpg
With my ATO reservoir (a recycled kitty litter container that fits perfectly and lets the cabinet door close. As the water jug tended to bulge a bit when full I put some tape on as extra support:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s205/mackwork/NewSump2.jpg
From the top (without my return pump or ATO sensors in place). The round blue thing is a short Simplicity Fluidized Bed Media Reactor. I'm not sure I like it, and may replace it eventually with a clear cylinder media reactor so I can see what's going on inside it.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s205/mackwork/NewSumpTop8_15_09.jpg
Just a simple, low cost, acrylic sump to hold my equipment and make maintenance easier (I'm an old man LOL!).
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