different muds and flow

[mike022380]

been considering running a wave 45 with a hang on fuge, (the 450 size from ebay) should be an exact fit, have been looking at muds and wondered if anyone has any feedback to help me decide, i have seen

mineral mud
miracle mud
koralagoon from brightwell aquatics
fiji gold mud.

what flow is required through the fuge?

many thanks

[Sanj]

I have been trying to read alot around this subject, but when people have made comparisons between Miracle Mud and Mineral Mud. Miracle has come out superior, but caution here because you have to go on other peoples opinions, who knows what their vested interests are. Although not in direct comparison other people have had good success with other brands. In the end it could be nothing in it except the brand name.

However since i am setting out new and want to used the Leng Sy ecosystem method properly, I am leaning towards Miracle Mud.

[Sanj]

Oh flow through the Fuge, i have read 5 times upto ten times.

[rich_tilbury]

I have miracle mud in my sump. I also run a skimmer (undersized for my tank). This seems to be compatible with MM as the owner/developer of the MM brand (can't remember his name) runs his tank like this.

There are no scientific long term trials comparing substrates. It is impossible to get a like for like comparison as each system is going to be different with different cultures of fauna.

From all I've read and understood on the subject (Shimek, Sprung and Delbeek) it seems the material (ie the type of substrate) doesn't really matter. Note Shimek is a marine biologist specialising in marine mud biotopes - ableit in temperate environments, so probably is the one to pay attention to as he has spent most of his academic life working out how mud operates!

What all agree on is that the important factor is the size of partical and the spaces between. The finer the better therefore. MM works because of its partical size rather than what it is made from, although the iron content may help with the growth of macro algaes.

You want the sand in the DSB to develop an anoxic layer (oxygen starved) as this is where the bacteria that denitrifies lives. Smaller spaces means water doesn't penetrate as well, but nutrients etc diffuse slowly into the sand bed. Bacteria forms a biofilm on the substrate and moreover the smaller the particals provides bigger the surface area for colonisation. Micro and meso organisms move water and nutrients from the surface into the anoxic layer and drive the consumption of the nutrients in the water.

DSBs MM or otherwise take time to establish. So need a month or so to kick in.

One important thing that is frequently overlooked is that monocultures of fauna develop and you need to add more LR/ LR rubble from time to time to reseed the DSB with a good mix of fauna. Shimek suggests replacing the LR itself every few years. I'm not sure I'm happy with that in terms of environmental impact. So, I buy a kilo of LR rubble now and then and chuck that into the sump.

Flow rate I was quoted was 3.5 times. I guess it depends on the application. Remote DSB might take faster flow, but MM refugia might need a lower flow, so that suspended particals drop out of the water column and can be consumed in the sump by the worms and pod life that develops there.

HTH

[Sanj]

I didnt think Leng Sy used skimmers on his system, but acknowledged that people do use hybrid systems and if a skimmer was incorporated, to run it 2-3hours per day. I suppose an undersized skimmer may have the same effect.

I am not going to use a skimmer at least not intially because the orginal Leng Sy ecosystem method is not supposed to use them and he maintained aquariums for years without the need of them. His original intention was to run a system with minimal equipment I believe.

Another thing regarding the Miracle Mud depending on how much area you need to cover, it tends to cover more area than Mineral Mud... apparently. According to the supplier you need 3 tubs of Mineral Mud to One Miracle Mud.

[mike022380]

thanks rich and sanj, flow rates, are we talking 3.5 times the volume of the fuge or total aquarium volume?

rich, interesting points ref the monocultures of fauna, although in theory this should be pertinant to all reef aquaria. i would have thought bacterial monocultures could be prevented by the use of zeobac/ultrabio as used in the ulns systems


sanj, i was also planning not to use a skimmer



i will look on the net for material from Shimek, Sprung and Delbeek and leng sy

[Sanj]

Mike Paletta has written a few articles on the Leng Sy system and he was intially very sceptical. It seems this whole thing all become big news in the late 1990s and early 2000's. He intitially wrote articles on it in the late 90s and then a few years later and seemed very positive.

People who have not had great results with the system had often not been following it properly for example not using the right about of sump area to total system volume.

[rich_tilbury]

re monocultures yep it happens in all aquaria. I think Shimek said that in the end you have "rats, cats and dogs and little else" or something similar. Bacterial cultures are another way to go, but don't introduce micro and meso fauna ie worms and pods which is what drives the mud filtration according to Shimek. I looked at my mud under a microscope and there are lots of moluscs and things no one normally cares much about, but these are the things we should be concerning ourselves with, as they are the business end of the clean-up! :)

Leng Sy - thanks I had gone blank - there was a magazine interview with him last year/ earlier this, where his own tank was shown urgh I think it was "Marine World". He was keeping softies and largish fish population. He had a skimmer on that tank and yes I believe it was run overnight rather than 24/7. The benefit is that you get more O2 into the system and reduce pH drops. I run my sump on a reverse photoperiod to the main tank. I do this because I think that the fauna needs a night-time to behave naturally. I'm not claiming any successes for this, but it makes more sense to me than running 24/7 lighting.

I also have to dose Ca, which you aren't supposed to need to do and I don't think that the recommended water changes could keep up with the ALK/CA consumption. I have a large tank and little space, so mixing up the reqd weekly water is a pain! :)

That said I think the MM style filtration does work (I wouldn't be without it) and agree with Sanj, the doubters are those who have never tried it, or have let a DSB fail due to not taking care of things properly.

[mike022380]

but don't introduce micro and meso fauna ie worms and pods which is what drives the mud filtration according to Shimek

sorry you lost me here, so i should not have pods etc in the fuge surely this would be nearly impossible

found some links to shimek

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/rs/feature/index.php

http://web.archive.org/web/20001212212900/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/wb/default.asp

[Sanj]

Hello Rich,

I understand the thinking on 24/7 lighting although hasnt reverse photoperiod seen a greater incidence of algae crash?

Are you using caulerpa or only chaeto?

One of the reasons for going down this method and not using a skimmer is partly down to the much greater pod life... I want to keep at least one Mandarin and my system is not going to be large 32x27x27 main system. The guys in TOTM seem to have had good success without them although dont use a skimmer. It would be interesting to understand why Leng was using a skimmer unless he was just experimenting because he used to keep his system with sizable fish load.

Perhaps like Mike Paletta it was simply down to a balance between having time to work on the tank and other lifes needs, like work lol.

[rich_tilbury]

The second clause needs the first clause to make sense: "Bacterial cultures are another way to go, but [bacterial cultures] don't introduce micro and meso fauna ie worms and pods which is what drives the mud filtration according to Shimek. " ie we WANT a mix of pods and worms AS WELL AS a mix of bacteria! :)

[mike022380]

The second clause needs the first clause to make sense: "Bacterial cultures are another way to go, but [bacterial cultures] don't introduce micro and meso fauna ie worms and pods which is what drives the mud filtration according to Shimek. " ie we WANT a mix of pods and worms AS WELL AS a mix of bacteria! :)

got ya, that makes alot more sense:)

so all the muds out there are likely to be similar in terms of providing an environment for a good biodiversity of micro/meso/macro fauna

back to flow, when talking times flow are you talking times the fuge volume or total system volume???

[rich_tilbury]

Hi Sanj
I keep chaeto and two species of Caulerpa, one being prolifera the other micromoides or something like that, which looks like moss. There are some other macros in there, but the above dominate. I try to make sure it isn't a mono-culture - again mono-cultures might not be recommended as I've read theories that this is something that might spark a crash.

re skimmer- my skimmer is in the first compartment of the sump, so takes out some of the nutrients BEFORE they enter the sump.

Checking the skimate under a microscope you will find bits of things but seldom whole animals. I have a lot of fan worms and some limpets that like to live in the skimmer itself. Skimmers are not 100% efficient and while they must remove some fauna I don't believe that it removes enough to cause serious problems.

In my sump I have lots of fan worms, polychaete worms, mysids and other amphipods. I certainly have a number of generations of mysids at anyone time. If there is anything that is damaging my pod life it is probably the mysids, which are active hunters of copepods and the smaller mysids!

re skimmer no skimmer I think you are right. You can up the water changes to compensate. I have azoos corals, so my feeding is perhaps a little higher than recommended, which is another reason for running a skimmer.

I guess we all have to run what is best at keeping the water conditions tip-top for the animals we keep.

[rich_tilbury]

flow: I have about 1000L tank. The return is a OR 3500, which is rated at 3500L per hour, so just over 3.5 times-ish allowing for displacement etc etc.

Re muds doing the job. Unless there trully is a magic ingredient in some of these products (which is doubtful according to one analysis of what is actually in MM, which even casts doubt on its marine origin) then in theory any sugar fine grained marine substrate should work. I use MM though. It works. It is a known product and I'm happy with the results.

If I did anything different then I'd have a bigger sump.

[Sanj]

but don't introduce micro and meso fauna ie worms and pods which is what drives the mud filtration according to Shimek

sorry you lost me here, so i should not have pods etc in the fuge surely this would be nearly impossible

found some links to shimek

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/rs/feature/index.php

http://web.archive.org/web/20001212212900/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/wb/default.asp


I think you misuderstood, i think he was just describing two systems. The bacterial culture does not add the worms and pods, wheres they are supported in the mud system. I think thats what he meant.

[Sanj]

Oops didnt realise lots of posts since i last read, question already answered. lol.

[Sanj]

I think the mud area I hope to use is about 1/3 the area of what my main system will be. That would be in the region of what is recommended in Leng's systems. Bigger the better i guess.

I have read different things on flow, I thought Leng prefered higher flow than x3, but different people say different things. I was going to use a Eheim 1262 as a return that would be x10 approx, although i expect a drop off from this rating in reality judging what other people have said.

According to this list strong flow is required through the filter bed although it doesnt seem to indicate what that amounts to, obviously dont want it blowing all over the place. http://www.athiel.com/lib7/lengsy.htm