(Caribsea)Mineral Mud v (Ecosystems)Miracle Mud [Archive]

View Full Version : (Caribsea)Mineral Mud v (Ecosystems)Miracle Mud

Dive Master

24-01-09, 15:42

Hi guys

I'm sure that this has been debated before! But, any personal opinions on what would be the cost effective best substrate to use?

Apart from price (there seems to be a big difference between the two) ??

Thanks.

Sanj

24-01-09, 17:27

Hmm, well you do need more mineral mud compared to Miracle mud. I have seen that 3x mineral mud gallon containers covers same area as one 10lb box of miracle mud. however that was from the sellers of Minracle mud. You only use 1" depth of miracle mud, but mineral mud you use a deeper level and you have to cover it in aragonite.

Otherwise i guess similar stuff, but in different ratios?

I have seen Miracle mud 4.5kg for £45

Mineral mud approx £18 per gal container.

Dive Master

24-01-09, 21:58

Thanks Sanj.

If the case, then the price is pretty much the same as each other?

From what I've read miracle seems more 'effective and potent' compared with mineral?

Cranners

25-01-09, 09:30

go with the miracle mud - I have used one tub on my system with a 1in layer of mud and my algae is growing and growing and growing - it seems to me to be simple to set up though I am curious on how to replace half of this stuff later in the year lol

J

dan-the-man

25-01-09, 10:25

I think this was debated on RC, can't remember the name of the thread now though.

I went for mineral mud, as far as I could see they are both mud like substances and one is cheaper than the other. I doubt there is much difference in terms of composition, in fact I think the much more important thing with substrates like this is the grain size - the grains are so small compared to even fine sand so it is much easier for fauna to move through.

Haile S

25-01-09, 10:28

I use mineral mud and am very happy with it. 0 -0.5 nitrates, 0.008 phos and good sps and lps growth.

the main difference between the two is the price and the varying claims made about miracle mud. Have a look at this post to see what you are paying for.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=273938
I've not seen any evidence that miracle mud can produce denitirification at 1 inch or that mud beds do anything other than support the growth of macro algae.

it is clear that people have had success with both systems so the choice is basically about price.

Sanj:
How did you calculate that 1 tub of miracle mud equates to 3 tubs of mineral mud? I have never seen any information about the optimum depth of mineral mud and would be interested if you could point me in that direction. yes you are supposed to cap off mineral mud with argonite but then you would be using it in your display tank anyway.

cheers,

Leroy

mike022380

25-01-09, 10:31

to throw a spanner in the works there is also the brightwell aquatics koralagoon (may not have spelt that right) and the fiji mud to consider? i'm going through this same choice at the mo

http://brightwellaquatics.com/br_base.html

http://www.coralculture.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?cPath=70_101&products_id=883&osCsid=1nnjdulre9ksbebacj2abk8ga1

Dive Master

25-01-09, 11:26

Thank you all guys. You have been most helpful!

My first inclination was to go with the miracle route. I, along with another reefer are going the ecosystems route, but found that miracle was recommended by a number of people, but it is soooo expensive compared with its competitors!

And thanks again to Mike. I'll look into the brightwell product too ;-)

Sanj

26-01-09, 01:09

Dive Master

26-01-09, 08:57

Haile S

26-01-09, 10:02

Hi Haile, it was the the Miracle mud people on youtube, they made the comparison on there. As I said err on caution because it was from them, however i doubt they are wrong otherwise Caribsea could easily take them to court if they were telling porkys.

here it is:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=99EocQ1nQRA

hi Sanj,

thanks for the link. It is breathtaking, where do i start?

As is usual for this company there is no evidence to back up any of the claims that they make about their product or other products.

i couldn't find any justification for the claim that you need 3 tubs of mineral mud to cover the given area.

Again they are yet to show that miracle mud can produce denitrification at one inch. AFAIK all muds do is to fuel the growth of macro algae. it would be easy to set up an experiment to test whether or not denitrification takes place but the fact that they have not done this speaks volumes.

I don't know enough about DSBs to evaluate their claims that miracle mud is cheaper than a normal DSB but I’ve never heard this before.

According to the ad a skimmer is now not required (again) although they will still encourage you to buy one.

The worst thing is their assertion that their competitors make false claims. this is disgraceful, for example mineral mud and others only claim that their substrates are suitable for growing macro algae and mangroves. it is miracle mud that claims (or at did in the past) to cure HLLE, and provides calcium and alkalinity.

Finally they imply that other muds do not work although they provide no evidence for this. Most of the critics of miracle mud accept that it can and does work – although the term “work” in relation to mud filtration needs to be defined properly. The criticisms are related to the fact that they provide no evidence of how they work, they won’t discuss the composition or source of their product, they charge an outrageous price and make ludicrous claims.

I'm not sure that CaribSea could sue them in US courts over some of the misleading information in the ad as it could well be outside their jurisdiction, US libel laws are different to ours and most of the smears against other manufacturers are implied rather than explicit.

I'm sorry for going on about this but the marketing of miracle mud really annoys me, undermines the credibility of a valid approach to filtration and to be honest it insults the intelligence of aquarists.

mike022380

26-01-09, 17:37

let me know how you get in your research divemaster :thumbsup:

haile s, read the thread on reefpark you linked on here somewhere , very interesting reading, :thumbsup:

i looked at a tub of koralagoon and tbh it had the usual blurb on the side, it was a very pale beige colour unlike the other muds and also appeared to have less of the larger particles

Dive Master

26-01-09, 17:44

Thanks Mike.

Problem is that all the brands will give it the advertising hype!

I know my head says miracle mud; it would have to be as it is closely linked to the Leng Sy!

We need a bit more info on what to go for at a reasonable price!

mike022380

26-01-09, 18:07

Problem is that all the brands will give it the advertising hype!

We need a bit more info on what to go for at a reasonable price!

think thats sums it up :unsure::banghead:

i suppose in my hang on smaller system it wouldn't be too hard to change, i'd just rather get it right first time, seems a nightmare trying to make an informed choice

Vicky_99

27-01-09, 14:11

Don't really know the difference as we haven't tried both but we went for Mineral Mud. Got no complaints.

Vicky

Dive Master

27-01-09, 15:27

Thanks Vicky.

Only complaint will be made by the other half about more money being spent!

mike022380

27-01-09, 15:38

you decided yet dive master? got the water and salt in tank but i'm still not sure which mud

Dive Master

27-01-09, 22:22

you decided yet dive master? got the water and salt in tank but i'm still not sure which mud

You are not helping matters Mike :laugh::laugh:

No, seriously, I haven't....

:scratchhead:

mike022380

27-01-09, 22:40

Dive Master

27-01-09, 22:44

Kitty litter?!

Jeesh- does that mean I have to around my garden to dig and pick up the pieces of my cats' poo and then whack it into the sump?? :)

mike022380

27-01-09, 22:51

http://www.3reef.com/forums/refugium/refugium-mud-what-kind-do-you-like-44270.html

sorry mate forgot to mention it should be unscented!

Dive Master

28-01-09, 14:16

Hmmm.

I'll think to something proprietry ie miracle mud or mineral mud.

;)

mike022380

28-01-09, 14:32

Hmmm.

I'll think to something proprietry ie miracle mud or mineral mud.

;)

me too, looks like its down to those two anyway, i have found diddly squat about the other 2 products i mentioned :(, now i know how women feel when they're choosing what to wear :p, please don't take offence anyone :laugh:

Dive Master

28-01-09, 16:02

ho-hum :whistlling:

Didn't hear you mention other than which mud to use:whistling:

mike022380

28-01-09, 20:02

right, i'm going mineral mud

Dive Master

29-01-09, 10:32

Let me know how you get on with the mineral mud Mike. My sump is now on order, so I won't be setting this up for another 3 weeks or so.

Thanks!

Dive Master

29-01-09, 14:41

PS Is Aragamud the same as Mineral Mud??

mike022380

30-01-09, 19:01

not sure on that, finally found some info on the fiji mud, it seems this mud is alot finer than the others and can cause clouding issues if slightly disturbed, there were the usual sceptics and satisfied users. some felt this was a more " natural" product to use as it actually harvested from the ocean

mike022380

30-01-09, 19:22

couldn't see the aragamud on the caribsea website or pdf catalog, found reference to it in this thread http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=146970&page=2

i quote from that thread, kosh42,

I use Caribsea Aragamud (basically its Aragamax with boosted iron content) rather than Ecosystem's Miracle Mud...

But there are two Caribsea products available... Mineral Mud and Aragamud... I use Aragamub and mine is definitely sand based...

Dive Master

31-01-09, 09:33

Yes, I gathered Mike that there are two from Caribsea. Not sur what the pros and cons of aragamud v mineral mud.

Another spanner in the works!

mike022380

07-02-09, 10:37

after all that yesterday i bought the brightwell koralagoon, my reasons were,

it was alot cheaper than miracle mud considering i prob won't even use all of the smallest tubs,

couldn't find mineral mud locally and due to weight didn't want to pay high postage charges,

koralagoon was higher in all the trace elements calcium, magnesium, strintium, potassium than miracle mud when i compared the tubs side by side,

judged on researching the products, opinions and advertising blurbs you may as well toss a coin,

figured it was worth a try as worse case scenario will be easy to remove from my small hob

Dive Master

10-02-09, 14:32

Let me know how you get on with the stuff Mike.

I've just bought miracle mud today- expensive (!!) It seems to be the common brand used.

stevie73

08-03-09, 19:07

Hi Mike, any updates on the koralagoon??

Cranners

08-03-09, 22:14

It is expensive, but I take the view I have paid out for a skimmer for my system so it is relatively cheaper isnt it?

J

ourmanflint

08-03-09, 22:55

to top it off dive master i read through the ecosystem section on the u.s forum 3reef, the members there advised to not use the "proper reef mud" and go for cheap kitty litter as they are all clay based, :eek:

That's what I've been using as well. :laugh: :laugh:

I did a lot of research including chemical analysis of a lot of clay litters. This is the one I went with, a bargain at £2 for 7 litres.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2009Q1/catlitter.jpg
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q4/sumplayers.jpg

Algae is growing like the clappers, haven't had any hair algae or cyano outbreaks even when PO4 was over 1ppm. I was hoping it would break down more than it has, but time will tell.

Rod

Cranners

16-03-09, 22:29

An unscented litter tray then lol

J

ourmanflint

18-03-09, 22:51

It's very special cat litter. Mostly Calcium compounds and Magnesium Silicate with a few trace elements, so all good as far as I'm concerned.

Just natural clay, no scent.
:D

Haile S

20-03-09, 11:27

Sanj

20-03-09, 18:10

youll only be able to do that if you can get someone reputable to back it up.

ourmanflint

20-03-09, 19:10

Do you have a close up of the texture? this stuff looks really interesting. If the texture is right you could easily repackage it and sell it on for 10 - 20 times the price you paid for it, or maybe someone else thought of that a while back.

I did think about doing just that, I had a chemical analysis done to check if it was viable and I suppose my using it myself is a test of sorts. I can't say for sure it's done any good, I've had my ups and downs like any reefer, maybe one day I'll test it properly.

:D

captaintricks

25-03-09, 20:14

anyone got an update i am deciding between all the different muds out there.....

how is the koralagoon??

redlion1968

26-03-09, 00:48

hows the kitty litter doing? i read the kitty litter stuff and just couldnt bring myself to doing it :o it all seems to make sense but was unsure i would chooes a good one.

just about to set up a bigger sump for new tank and still deliberating what substrate to use, i have head one or 2 positive things about the aragonite based koralagoon and have a can ready but still not 100% sure what way to go so if anyone has any experience of medium term useage of koralagoon or kitty litter id be very interested to know how it performs

ourmanflint

30-03-09, 22:46

Kitty litter is going very well I think. I am taking things slowly though, just corals and CUC so far, but all doing well now my phosphates are under control. These were not from the "mineral clay" but from some cheap live rock I should never have bought, but you live and learn I guess.

Cat litter is just that mineral clay, it's the very same thing as mineral mud after it's been lifted out of the sea by tectonic forces and left high and dry for millennia. If you want to try it I suggest reading up on mineral clays in general and bentonite clay in particular.

:D

stej-1986

25-05-09, 15:49

Does anyone know whether miracle mud or mineral mud ever need to be replaced?
If so, how often?
Thanks.

wave ace

25-05-09, 15:54

Does anyone know whether miracle mud or mineral mud ever need to be replaced?
If so, how often?
Thanks.

50% every two years I believe

stej-1986

25-05-09, 17:36

Thanks.

jaggy

29-05-11, 14:06

just stummbled on this , hows the kitty litter getting on ?

golly 123

29-05-11, 14:22

what about live sand?

craig23

31-05-11, 20:55

I use both mainly miracle mud and a bag of mineral mud.

loneranger1982

19-09-11, 18:13

is there a rule to how much mineral or miracle mud you need to the size of your tank?

Kwak Rider

19-09-11, 19:24

is there a rule to how much mineral or miracle mud you need to the size of your tank?

Yep, have a look at the website and it'll explain how many lbs are required for tank volume, it'll also explain what area is required, I think (from memory) it's meant to be 1-2" in depth to allow denitrification. HTH a little......

Matt O'D

21-09-11, 00:05

I would suggest aragamud as a safe bet. Tedweall on this forum has a stunning algae free tank with a sump containing this

having said that, I went for Kitty Litter (sepiolite type)