View Full Version : Nitrate in D&D H2Ocean Salt ????? Help!!
adamgreen240
18-04-09, 14:46
Well, ive just bought 3 X 23kg buckets of H2Ocean. Tested the water when mixed with 0 TDS RO/DI water (no nitrate in RO water) to find i am getting a reading of about 10 ppm of nitrate.
Its a brand new salifert tesk kit which i bought last week -- Does anyone have any ideas? Surely this can't be right - as it says 'free from nitrate and phosphate' on the back - i havent checked phospate yet!! Dont really want to!:(
Was this a bad batch or is it always like this? As if i knew this i wouldnt have spend £150 of my money on it!
Rant Over! Adam
Well, ive just bought 3 X 23kg buckets of H2Ocean. Tested the water when mixed with 0 TDS RO/DI water (no nitrate in RO water) to find i am getting a reading of about 10 ppm of nitrate.
Its a brand new salifert tesk kit which i bought last week -- Does anyone have any ideas? Surely this can't be right - as it says 'free from nitrate and phosphate' on the back - i havent checked phospate yet!! Dont really want to!:(
Was this a bad batch or is it always like this? As if i knew this i wouldnt have spend £150 of my money on it!
Rant Over! Adam
Mixed up 2 lots of 20lts this morning 0 Nitrate after mixing for 4 hrs, Could be a bad batch I suppose, are you certain your RO has 0 Nitrate ?
PS what container are you using, could it be/have been contaminated?
Are you using a clean test vial with the salifert kit i.e not washed out with tap water or dried with a contaminated cloth?
10ppm of nitrate is quite a high reading and ive personally never had a Nitrate reading from H2O.My suggestion would be to let the water mix for a good 48 hours,make sure the test kit vial has been washed with RO and shaken dry then try again.
Have you got another brand of salt you can test the kit against,what PPM Nitrate is it reading against your aquarium water?
adamgreen240
18-04-09, 15:49
Hi Tony, thanks for the reply.
Yes, the salifert test vial is cleaned - i rinsed it in RO and dried with a tissue.
I was thinking that with regard to the reading, there is definatly nitrate present, between 5 and 10ppm.
It had been mixing for a good 24hrs and was brought up to temp ready to use.
I do have some instant ocean salt which i tested last week using the salifert and it came out at 0.
The tanks nitrate is 50 - hense me doing the water changes, trying to get it down, it wasnt until it never moved after a 20% change i tested the fresh mix to find the reading.
Has anyone else reported a bad batch to you??
Thanks for the help and quick reply!!!
Adam
hiya
Personally i wouldnt clean the vial with tissue's as they are fine for blowing your konk but they are often made from recycled paper etc and can contain all sorts.
Not saying thats your problem but its something i wouldnt do,same for anything washed in the washing machine as washing powder contains phosphates etc which can give false readings.
With regards to batch reports then we did have a batch problem where a small reading of PO4 was reported.This was tracked down to a slightly contaminated component that was added to a certain batch.With regards to Nitrate im not aware of any reports to us,is there any chance you could double check your test readings with another kit?
Might be worth making up a small amount to retest in a different container just to rule that out.
I will however pass this info on to our sales director,id be grateful if you could double check your findings though in the mean time.
Many thanks Tony
adamgreen240
18-04-09, 16:17
Hi Tony, will bear that in mind with the tissue! Lol, although i couldnt really see it producing the nitrate reading! lol.
I am going to go around to my friends later on and ask him to use his test kit on it and see what it comes out as... His is a salifert aswell though.
And im just about to go off and make some more up in a fresh container - wouldnt mind, ive just mixed 200 litres of it!!!
Thanks again Tony, you have been very helpfull, and i sure will go and retest!
Thanks, Adam
Thanks for that.
We do pride ourselves on the quality and consistency of our salt so your feedback is very much appreciated.
Hopefully ill get a response from our sales director on Mon.
Can you pm me the batch number of the salt please,usually printed on the instruction leaflet.
Many thanks Tony
adamgreen240
18-04-09, 16:37
Hi Tony, Will PM you the Batch number now.
Thanks for all your help, ive just got another fresh lot mixing now, should i leave for 48hrs before testing??
Thanks, Adam
ive just ordered a batch myself, so if adams batch does indeed contain nitrates could you let us know the batch number? thanks very much, hopefully its testing error and not the salt, thanks again
michael we should be retesting the batch this coming week.Let me just reassure you that all batches of H2O are tested at the factory before they are shipped.
We have never had a report of Nitrate in our salt,thats no reflection on Adam.
At this point it would not be wise to flag a batch number of a run of salt based on one users findings.We will test the batch and we are in contact with Adam to work this out.
We need to exhaust all possible errors with regards to testing,mixing container contamination etc,no disrespect is intended Adam.
Hi Tony, thanks for the reply.
Yes, the salifert test vial is cleaned - i rinsed it in RO and dried with a tissue.
I was thinking that with regard to the reading, there is definatly nitrate present, between 5 and 10ppm.
It had been mixing for a good 24hrs and was brought up to temp ready to use.
I do have some instant ocean salt which i tested last week using the salifert and it came out at 0.
The tanks nitrate is 50 - hense me doing the water changes, trying to get it down, it wasnt until it never moved after a 20% change i tested the fresh mix to find the reading.
Has anyone else reported a bad batch to you??
Thanks for the help and quick reply!!!
Adam
Just a quick follow up Adam,im a bit confused by something.You say your tank has a Nitrate reading of 50 and you cant shift it with water changes.
Just noticed this post from 8 days ago reporting that your Nitrate was over 100
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2539889#post2539889
Sorry im not trying to pull you up im just trying to get a better picture as to whats happening.
Regards Tony
adamgreen240
20-04-09, 15:54
Hi Tony, appologies that was a flase reading from my Nutrafin test kit, was advised by another member to get a salifert one which it is showing 50 on ?? Plus, i find when it gets past 50odd it is hard to see the different colour changes!
Stuart Bertram
20-04-09, 20:36
Here is my thought on the situation.
I do not think that the chemistry on the Salfert test kit will measure the nitrate in RO water.
If this is the case then you may have the nitrate in the water and you are only able to measure it when you add the salt.
David has come across this especially if you use a post DI and the resin is full and starting to release.
To test this make a solution up with half of the salt in and if it is from the salt then it will be half the reading and if it is from the water then it will be the same as the last reading that you measured.
We are fairly confident that it is not coming from the salt and have never measured any before in the last 1000+ buckets sold.
I am interested to get to the bottom of this
Stuart
i have tested mine and its 0 nitrate...never get a high mag reading from every bucket ive had...i think this needs looking into as well..
ricky,can you expand a little.What test kit are you using,what reading are you getting and what S.G are you running at and if using a refractometer do you temperature compensate.
One other thing do you test for Mag when you start a bucket or every use?
regards Tony
hi tony..
salifert test kit..
mag reading is 1260...sg 1.026.. ro temp is 25c..refractometer left in warm room for 30 mins..
i get same reading everytime...even if refrac is cold...tried all different methods and mag always reads the same out of all buckets..
regards
ricky..
Hi Ricky do you mix the bucket and what readings are you getting?
Mixing and shaking Salt can actually cause separation and striation of the different components of a salt mix.It has been tested and found it to happen so you are probable best off not shaking a salt mix before using it (Quote from Randy Holmes Farley reef chemist)
Stuart Bertram
12-05-09, 21:54
I agree that shaking the bucket causes particles of different mass and size to separate, which is what can happen during transport, however mixing will incorporate this back together to a great extent.
Stuart
hi tony,
no dont mix the bucket...tried mag levels at start of bucket and at the end and have never had a reading near 1300.
ricky id try another test kit.The TMC Magnesium-calcium combi test kit is pretty accurate.
ricky
I've used Salifert Mag test kit for a while now and like you never got a reading higher than 1300, yesterday I tested a new bucket and got 1290ppm with salifert and 1400ppm with TM pich your choice, I go in between and you will fall in the right parameters. Cal was at 450ppm Salifert , phosphates non detectable with D-D phos. test kit and non detectable nitrates with Salifert.:thumbsup:
Try and pich up a TM test kit and let us know if you get a difference.
Hope this helps
Kevin
hmm thats interesting kev...ok i'll try a tmc one it is then..
salifert is tmc isn't it?
Reef bloke
27-05-09, 18:44
Nope Salifert is Salifert,TMC just distribute for the U.K.
Reef bloke
27-05-09, 18:52
Tropic Marin is another brand TMC distribute but its branded as their own i think.
Reef bloke
27-05-09, 18:53
linkage to help explain
http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/aquarium/tropic-test.asp
deanemarine
13-03-10, 12:38
what happend in the end ???:wave:
There was a problem. strange how the denials etc were very similar to another thread, ie its the reefkeepers test kit, water, anything else but us.etc.. ;)
adamgreen240
13-03-10, 19:30
My salt was sent into D and D, who examined it in a lab. Yes there was found to be a trace of nitrate, but the salt was not D and Ds, it must have been swapped by a supplier somewhere down the line.
Cant fault D and D on their customer service...
Many thanks for your reply Adam to update the thread.
This was a very strange case and has no reflection on Adam as he obviously had no idea that the salt wasn’t H20 plus.
The salt was examined microscopically and was found to be a salt from another manufacturer, the way H20 is produced gives a very easily identifiable grain size and the salt was totally different.
Somewhere along the line someone must have thought it would be fun to swap the salt out or swap it with a cheaper salt although I have no idea what salt it might be as I haven’t been witness to any of the major players with Nitrate in the salts for a long long while.
Regards
phil richardson
13-03-10, 20:44
of all the posts and threads that pop up on ur about salt and which brand it always seems to be DD that people have trouble with i have been using this salt for a few years and never once had any probs whats going on man
Stuart Bertram
13-03-10, 21:11
Phil
Perhaps the reason for more threads is because we actively respond to peoples questions and so more people post for information.
We take our salt very seriously and seem to give out much more help than I can see from other brands or that may just be my impression.
Also according to the UR polls there are about 2-3 times more people using the salt compared with the next nearest brand - these are your figures not mine.
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303447
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=354854
Keep your eyes out for some independant testing done in PFK magazine when it comes out next week
Cheers
Stuart
wayne in norway
13-03-10, 21:22
There are have been plenty of scares with other salts down the years, and plenty of bad batches. It's hard to fault Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals, but even they have had bad batches.
Here's a controversial idea or rather an unpopular one, but if you look at any of the salt threads in here and track the levels people think are correct when they test for say Mg or kH you will see a massive spread. Either those salts are so erratically produced it's a miracle anything is alive OR testing with hobbyist quality test kits is frighteningly inaccurate.
I have seen a recent thread with a well known, expensive salt where the kH has been quoted as from 6.5 to 11.5. And this is a salt specifically designed for systems where a stable kH is essential and soon revealed if erratic. Do you think the levels are that far off, or do you think the tests are?
(Goes back to happily changing water on a Sat night..... )
adamgreen240
13-03-10, 21:27
of all the posts and threads that pop up on ur about salt and which brand it always seems to be DD that people have trouble with i have been using this salt for a few years and never once had any probs whats going on man
Like i say, just to clarify:
D and D H20cean Salt DOES NOT contain Nitrate.
I was sold of bucket of cheap salt, which was not d and d, but was disguised in their bucket.
The other buckets of salt i have had, have been spot on!
Thumbs up to D n D!
Practical Fishkeeping Magazine tested six major salt brands in the MCERTS Environment Agency laboratory.
D-D came back as zero nitrate and phosphate, and that was using lab testing that is usually used for official government data, and rigorous testing methods.
Check it out in the April issue, you will be amazed at the official data on mag, calcium and yield of some salts.
funkyparott
15-03-10, 13:12
When does the April issue come out?
I don't normally purchase PFK, but I'd be interested to read this story.
When does the April issue come out?
I don't normally purchase PFK, but I'd be interested to read this story.
It should be out by now.
T
It should be out by now.
T
yep, i recieved mine this weekend
regards
Sam :)
The magazine goes on sale today so be sure to pick yours up. Im yet to see the magazine but im told that H20+ did exceptionally well. More info to follow!
Regards
The magazine goes on sale today so be sure to pick yours up. Im yet to see the magazine but im told that H20+ did exceptionally well. More info to follow!
Regards
With all due respect to D & D and other manufacturers, and PFK, which I used to buy, I have lost confidence in magazine reviews some time ago. This is because negative reviews are very likely to be omitted from reviews for various reasons (e.g. fear of litigation). All we read is positive reviews or semi-positive reviews. I do not remember reading a damning review of any product anywhere for a long time. Could TOP GEAR be an exception? Even in some forums, people are muzzled since we live in a litigation society.
Sorry for being cynical.
T
PS. I use D & D salt if this is relevant to the subject.
Hi Trout
I do know that the tests have been done by an accredited laboratory so in that respect the results should speak for themselves as the data cant be subject to any personal bias.I would imagine the testing would have also been blind.
Infact i havent seen the official results of the article so im hoping for good things.
Regards
Hi Trout
I do know that the tests have been done by an accredited laboratory so in that respect the results should speak for themselves as the data cant be subject to any personal bias.I would imagine the testing would have also been blind.
Infact i havent seen the official results of the article so im hoping for good things.
Regards
Thanks Tony. I will pop in my local WH Smith branch in my lunch break.
keith hellyar
17-03-10, 13:46
Here's a taster of the article http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2667
Interesting that the preview says that most brands dont have nitrate issues.
Keith
Hi Tony,
I have just finished reading the reviews in PFK. Firstly, congratulations to D & D on getting "Practical Fishkeeping 2010 BEST IN TEST MARINE SALT".
I have noticed something in the review that I wanted to bring your attention to and to the attention of readers of the review.
The reviewer stated that he used 36.5 g (dry weight) of D & D salt to obtain 1000 ml of salt water in 35.5ppt.
Back in October 2009, we had a lively debate here in UR about how to calibrate refractometers. Stuart Bertram carried out an experiment to compare D & D refractometer with TMC's high precision hydrometer (you could also have carried out the same experiment if you had not broken your hydrometers). After the experiment, he stated that "By the way for those who have accurate scales - the correct mix ratio weight to volume for our salt to achieve 35.5ppt is 39.7 gr in 1000 mls of RO water when the salt is dry and up to 40.3 when it has absorbed moisture." (refer to http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=332893&page=22 for more information)
I concur with Stuart. In fact, this (~39.5 mg per 1000 ml) is the amount of salt I use to obtain 35.5 ppt.
In order to have confidence in the figures of the reviewer published in PFK, we need more information. We know that the reviewer used a refractometer. However, what we do not know is whether he used a sea water calibrated refractometer or brine calibrated refractometer. In either case, we do not know how he calibrated his refractometer prior to tests. If his figures are correct then Stuart must be wrong. Both cannot be correct can they?
regards
T
Hiya Trout
I have yet to read the article ,good point about the refractometer , i think the tester must have used a standard brine refract and corrected the amount of salt added to water to correct the offset.
If the salt was a fresh batch(which it should have been) then it should have been pretty dry with minimal moisture absorbtion. Stuart is away at the moment but has since written a salinity article which sets out the correct way measure salinity but it still needs editing so im afraid he wont be about to comment until early next week.
I would imagine all salts were tested in the same way so there should be pretty representitive of a standard mix.
Regards
I would imagine all salts were tested in the same way so there should be pretty representitive of a standard mix.
Regards
I agree that the overall verdict would be the same.
funkyparott
18-03-10, 14:37
I'm sure an accredited lab would have used some form of specialised equipment to measure salinity (no disrespect to the refractometer).
I'm sure an accredited lab would have used some form of specialised equipment to measure salinity (no disrespect to the refractometer).
I read the article very carefully yesterday. The reviewer used refractometer as stated below:
"The salts were then mixed with RO/DI water with a TDS reading of 0 to a concentration of 35 ppt, as measured with a calibrated refractometer" (page 87).
OK?
;)
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