View Full Version : PO4 in H2Ocean
I seem to be getting a high reading of Phos in fresh mix salt, I did think that maybe my container was contaminated but i have just finnished another round of tests to prove it isn't that.
For info this is what i did:
Filled new cleaned container with 2 litres of fresh RO, left for a couple of hours and tested twice with D-D kit, very slight trace of yellow, so a good reading.
After proving that the water was free from PO4 i then added salt to 35ppm, well mixed and tested a couple of hours later, i know this is a bit rushed but if it shows phos now then i doughbt it'll clear on its own.
Subsequent tests show a light blue colour on same D-D kit, a reading of about 0.045
Batch No. is :2309080312
Is this a known issue or can you see a flaw in what ive done.
BTW the tank reads exactly the same as the fresh mix, hence why iv'e begun to look a bit deeper into the source.
Many thanks
Neil
Couple of things id suggest.
Leave the water to mix for 24 hours and test again.
Did you wash the vial in tap water or RO?
Did you wipe the vial out with a tissue?
The fact that your tank reads exactly the same seems a little odd,PO4 levels in tank vary depending on feeding and the use of PO4 remover.
Do you use PO4 remover on the tank,if so and its in a reactor what does the effluent test?
Have a look at this FAQ as it will give you a bit of info as to tolerances and the outcome of one user experience.
http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/phosphate-levels-h2ocean-salt
Many thanks for the speedy response.
I will leave the mix until tommorow and test again, i do not understand how this can help though, as (i Assume), there is nothing within the salt to 'remove' PO4??
Vials always washed and rinsed in RO, then left to dry.
Tank does read very similar to fresh mix, not had the two side by side though as i do not have enough tubes!
I do run UltiPhos (fluidised) Changed weekly, will test effluent shortly.
Of to look at the FAQ now
Thanks:wave:
Edit: Just read that link and it states that PO4 at 0.05 is acceptable to quality control. To me, that seems VERY high??
Also, just to add, i'm not slating or blaming the salt, just merely trying to get to the root cause of high PO4 in my tank:)
Well, tested the water again today, after having an air pump running in it, and, as expected, no change in reading (slightly higher if anything).
Just as a side note, all other params i've tested for are good to OK.
Really would be greatful for some help on this one:thanks:
jackthelad
05-05-09, 23:15
we have had the same problem we have been using h2o salt for a month and had a cyno outbreak and green algae not had this since setting up tank 18months ago. Tested water fresh mix at weekend to find 0.045 phosphate. Tank was running at 0.008 but had noticed an increase to 0.015 since using this salt. To reduce phosphate in fresh mix stuck a bag of rowa in fresh mix in the tub for 24hrs before adding to the tank together with powerhead and airline. I am hoping the algae outbreak settles as I am very happy with other results from the salt, corals much bigger and brighter, fish look healthier and not spending money on bottles of suppliment as all other params are excellent.
One further question for you both,due you mix your buckets up before use?
One further question for you both,due you mix your buckets up before use?
I don't see how that will elimate any phosphates in the salt? It will mix everytihng up so you get balanced readings but I doubt a shake of the tub would elimnate po4:confused:
I don't see how that will elimate any phosphates in the salt? It will mix everytihng up so you get balanced readings but I doubt a shake of the tub would elimnate po4:confused:
There will be some phos somewhere in all salts. I suppose the theory is that it could be concentrated in one area of the mix so give a 'false' high reading. I have my doubts on this one though.....
The reason Tony asks is because the salt settles in transit and as the DD salt has po4 remover in it, it may have settled at the bottom... its always best to mix the salt bucket before adding any to your water change bucket.
As mentioned its always good practice to mix the bucket and you will get an average PO4 reading which may be different to a one off reading from the top of the bucket.
Yes i do always mix the dry salt, i leave it in the bag and give a good neading.
Just another point to others, you need to keep it sealed at all times as salt will 'suck' moisture from the air along with all sorts of other contaminants, don't want too teach you to suck eggs though.
Very true Neil.Dry salt is like a sponge,leave it open or not sealed and youll end up with hard lumps of salt and a cloudy mix if the salt gets really damp.
yes salt is hygroscopic and should always be sealed air tight
Just to let others know, i bought a new bucket today and PO4 tests fine (0.008-0.015) so maybe there is the odd naff batch floating around or maybe i ballsed it up ?? should it have been a bad bucket, there are very few complaints against the tens of thousands? sold, so that can't be a bad reccord, can it??
Just to add Tony was very helpful and open via PM, so thats good aswell.
Thanks for starting the thread Squirrel you may have answered my questions!
Tony, would you please make contact with me!
Thanks
Glen
Hiya Glen,Ive replied to your pm.
Something Fishy
14-05-09, 11:18
I've been in 'communication' with the importer of another brand of salt about P04 in the dry salt and it appears that the manufacturer has stated that it's fairly normal for phosphates to be in the mix even though advertised claims of ' No phosphates or nitrates' abound. You may even find in the not too distant future that disclaimers about 'traces of phosphates are normal and are to be expected' start to appear on packaging. Seems to be a bit of a more honest approach and may head off a lot of claims about returning faulty buckets from 'bad batches'. :whistling:
I would just like to say a big thanks to everyone at Deltec in there quick response to my questions!
Even Mr Saxby took the time out of his busy day to call me and this guy knows his stuff, I never have spoken to him before, yes I know the rumours about him but I can honestly say this guy sound genuine and has gone out of his way to help me!
I will continue to use their salt as the results from it are very good, my tank has improved from the day I started using the salt, I know there has been a little issue about phosphates but I can name a few other salts that had the same issues!
Thanks again Tony / Stuart & lee and would you please on pass my thanks again to David
Glen
No worries Glen,hope your superb tank continues to do well.
Steve_bham
15-05-09, 17:44
One further question for you both,due you mix your buckets up before use?
I had the same problem for weeks when i was using H2Ocean, swapped over to TMC Marine pro reef and it went within a week, so wasnt to impressed with the salt especially when i still had 3/4 left!
This thread got me worried. Since using D&D salt my phos reading has crept up. Usually I top up 10-20 l after adding or removing livestock but this week I changed 20% and then 10% as I was setting up a couple of new tanks. Usually the phos in my tank is 0.008 or under but this week it had gone up to 0.015.
I checked a salt mix today and the phos is 0.045 tested with a d&d test kit.
RO is 0-0.008
Tank is 0.015
Yes I always wash out the tubes in RO.
Yes I mixed the salt before using it.
Yes I keep the lid on tightly.
I run a phosban reactor and the phosban was replaced a week ago – normally I change it every month or two.
PS squirrel a PO4 reading of 0.008-0.015 is not ok for any salt and is completely unacceptable for one advertised as free from phosphate.
I spoke to David Saxby for half an hour and was very impressed by his openness and knowledge.
Thanks again,
Leroy
I spoke to David Saxby for half an hour and was very impressed by his openness and knowledge.
Thanks again,
Leroy
So what was the conclusion?
He said that there was a batch of salt contaminated with phosphates and that the problem has been resolved.
TRIGGER-HAPPY
18-05-09, 20:51
i use H20 so if they are up front and honest they should make public the batch numbers and offer a refund / exchange to those of us with the bad mix.
Regards Martin
TRIGGER-HAPPY
18-05-09, 21:21
Bump
I have been using this salt aswell and had lots of probs, i have now used all the salt and only got the empty buckets, was thinking about changing to another brand but have herd lots of good reports about this salt, I did post a question in help and advice and got quite a few replies.
Chris
TRIGGER-HAPPY
18-05-09, 21:58
I have been using this salt aswell and had lots of probs, i have now used all the salt and only got the empty buckets, was thinking about changing to another brand but have herd lots of good reports about this salt, I did post a question in help and advice and got quite a few replies.
Chris
Hi Chris, the point that i am making is that D-D have allegedly confessed to having sent out a bad batch of salt. If this is the case then they should make public the offending batch numbers and offer an exchange to those people who in good faith purchased there product.
Kind Regards Martin
Couldn't agree more with you Martin
Reef bloke
19-05-09, 10:24
Hi Techno
What sort of probs are we talking about?
I have had my ph go up then down, as you can see my kh/alk results are now sky high but everything else is fine according to my results, i have got the results at home for the last say 8 weeks in a row and my kh/alk has been rising each week only since i have been using D&D salt, not sure if it's a coincidence or what?
I have lost 2 shrimps in a week aswell?
lawrence cope
19-05-09, 10:46
Have you tested a fresh mix of salt to see what your readings are?
I would if i had any left used the last bit at the weekend, Have read about using carbinated or sparklin water to lower my readings but it also lowers your ph so have to get the doses right which i am prepared to try unless somebody knows of a different way
lawrence cope
19-05-09, 10:52
Im in the same situation with the salt but with phosphate, i have had high phosphate levels and have the last bit of salt to do 25litres do when i mix that up im testing salt mix to see if it was the salt giving me a high reading.
I know a few of us in a local club have had issues with cyano out breaks since using this salt too. I have been running systems now for 4 years and never had the tank looking so bad.......rock and sand and glass near impos to keep clean.... only thing that has changed is the salt i use and i too am getting similar higher readings from fresh mix salt. I will be going back to reef crystals as i never had this problem before.... and i know the other members of the club are looking to change the salt they are using too.
If as stated above it was a bad batch them thats fine as these thing understandably can happen but its then also time these numbers were made public. as i have 3/4 of a bucket sitting that i dont want to use now.
Brian
Reef bloke
19-05-09, 10:59
Techno,what sort of Alk readings are you getting in teh main tank and are you dosing anything?
Alkalinity slowly drops over time and unless you are doing daily water changes i doubt if the salt is pushing up Alk.
Equally Ph would slowly rise with an increase in Alkalinity,it wouldnt go down unless we are talking that daily Ph swings that all tanks have due to C02/Oxygen levels day and night.
Ive personally used H20 salt for the best part of a year,was fine on my old system and my new one is doing well although its early days.
Never had a bucket high in Alkalinity.
How can i reduce my levels in the tank
I am using a salifert test kit
readings are
KH 15.7
ALK 5.60
Other results are fine
CA 450
MG 1410
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
SG 1.026
Reef bloke
19-05-09, 11:18
I see your running a calcium reactor,you may be running it too hard hence the high Alk.Either turn it off for a couple of days or reduce the effluent and let the Alk/ca levels drop.It might explain your Ph too if the amount of CO2 in the effluent is driving down Ph.
How hard are you running it i.e the amount of effluent and the internal ph of the reactor?
It may be best posting this question in the help and advice forum for a better response.
Yes i have got a calcium reactor which was brought of somebody on here, he has seen how i have it running and said it was fine, but i could try turning it off for a few days to see if it has any effect
I did post in the help and advice but got no further
Thanks
Chris
Reef bloke
19-05-09, 11:40
For further reading on Calcium and Alk problems and how to solve them can be found here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
Its a very good read.With Alk at or around 15.7dkh id definately be looking at the calcium reactor or possibly a dodgy test kit so it might be worth cross referencing your results at an LFS or friend.Equally if you have no demand in the aquarium for the CA reactor then its probably not worth running untill you get quite a few stony corals in there.
I have been using the H2O salt for several months now and I am generally very impressed. My tank is the happiest it's been for a long time.
However it would re-assure me to know that if a problem with a batch was discovered that the batch would be recalled.
I have just started using this and it would be reassuring to see the batch numbers that were affected, and what was being done about them, please?
I have tested my RO water incase that was giving me bad readings and i got
0.3 kh value in dkh
0.11 alkalinity
are those correct?
Reef bloke
19-05-09, 19:17
You must be bumping up the Alk from the reactor to get an in tank Alk of 14 then as its not coming from the salt.
One tip though,give the bucket a good mix and you should find the Alk pans out a little lower in the salt mix,thats if your not at the bottom half of the bucket already.
Elements tend to settle out in transit so whenever you buy a bucket give it a good mix before use,you should then have a balanced mix through the whole bucket.
Ive also found the salifert kits can read a dkh or two higher than the water really is so you might want to take that into account too.If you have a reference solution id double check the kit for accuracy.
Will do
The calcium reactor has been turned off to see how that goes
I do shake the salt bucket as read somewhere once before.
All my salt has now gone but i still have the batch number incase it was a faulty batch, not much use now i have no salt left but you never know might get some vouchers or some more salt if there has been a problem with certain batches.
Stuart Bertram
20-05-09, 12:42
Guys
Following your comments we have made some examinations and found that we have produced a couple of batches of salt with low levels of phosphate present and we appreciate you bringing this to our attention as for all the readings are very low we would rather that there was none in at all . This level is present at approximately 0.026mg/lt (P) or 0.08mg/lt (PO4) and the level that we recommend is maintained in your aquarium is at 0.05mg/lt (PO4).
This salt batch has only been supplied to the UK.
The phosphate source has been traced to a batch of fluoride which we add to return the base salt up to natural sea water levels of 1.4 mg/lt, - interestingly some other manufacturers do not add any fluoride to their salt and many only have it at half the natural level.
The particular batch of fluoride came into the factory with a phosphate level present, compared with the zero standard that is set to the supplier. Subsequent batches have been checked and have no phosphate and we will be carefully checking every delivery in the future. We have gone back to our warehouse and separated the small amount of salt made with this batch of fluoride so that no more goes out with these low levels of phosphate present if people are concerned. David will continue to use this up on his own system.
Fortunately phosphate is very easy to control within the aquarium and to put the low level of phosphate in this salt in perspective, the amount of Rowaphos that would be required to remove the phosphate from a whole 23Kg bucket of salt is less than 5mls – ie the smallest 100ml tub would remove the phosphate from 20 buckets or 11,500 lts of salt water.
I have just done a quick test on my own RO water which also passes through DI resin and I am getting a reading of 0.05 mg/lt using a professional Merck Phosphate Test – not that I believe that there is any phosphate present but because the level is so low that it is affected by the fact that the vials had not been completely rinsed and cleaned properly before the test.
I did a second test for my own interest where I took 1lt of RO water and added one of the smaller cubes of frozen food, in this case Oyster Eggs and shook it for only 2 minutes. I then carried out a phosphate test on the water and found that the phosphate reading was completely off the scale. I diluted this sample by 10 to 1 and calculated that the level was actually 2.5mg/lt.
This highlights the general importance of running a phosphate remover on your tank as every day I add the equivalent of about 15 of these frozen cubes and unseen phosphate to my system.
If anyone is still concerned about this low level of phosphate in some older batches of salt then we propose that you contact Tony by email at tony@theaquariumsolution.com (tony@theaquariumsolution.com) .
If you send him the batch number of your salt we will check it against the list send you out a 50ml sample bag of Rowaphos which would completely remove any phosphate from about 10 buckets of salt.
I am sure that the positive results and balance that people are achieving with the creatures in their aquariums when using our salt will allow you to accept this unfortunate batch oversight on our side.
All the best
Stuart
Very satisfactory answer, all makes sense :thumbsup:
Guys
Following your comments we have made some examinations and found that we have produced a couple of batches of salt with low levels of phosphate present and we appreciate you bringing this to our attention as for all the readings are very low we would rather that there was none in at all . This level is present at approximately 0.026mg/lt (P) or 0.08mg/lt (PO4) and the level that we recommend is maintained in your aquarium is at 0.05mg/lt (PO4).
This salt batch has only been supplied to the UK.
The phosphate source has been traced to a batch of fluoride which we add to return the base salt up to natural sea water levels of 1.4 mg/lt, - interestingly some other manufacturers do not add any fluoride to their salt and many only have it at half the natural level.
The particular batch of fluoride came into the factory with a phosphate level present, compared with the zero standard that is set to the supplier. Subsequent batches have been checked and have no phosphate and we will be carefully checking every delivery in the future. We have gone back to our warehouse and separated the small amount of salt made with this batch of fluoride so that no more goes out with these low levels of phosphate present if people are concerned. David will continue to use this up on his own system.
Fortunately phosphate is very easy to control within the aquarium and to put the low level of phosphate in this salt in perspective, the amount of Rowaphos that would be required to remove the phosphate from a whole 23Kg bucket of salt is less than 5mls – ie the smallest 100ml tub would remove the phosphate from 20 buckets or 11,500 lts of salt water.
I have just done a quick test on my own RO water which also passes through DI resin and I am getting a reading of 0.05 mg/lt using a professional Merck Phosphate Test – not that I believe that there is any phosphate present but because the level is so low that it is affected by the fact that the vials had not been completely rinsed and cleaned properly before the test.
I did a second test for my own interest where I took 1lt of RO water and added one of the smaller cubes of frozen food, in this case Oyster Eggs and shook it for only 2 minutes. I then carried out a phosphate test on the water and found that the phosphate reading was completely off the scale. I diluted this sample by 10 to 1 and calculated that the level was actually 2.5mg/lt.
This highlights the general importance of running a phosphate remover on your tank as every day I add the equivalent of about 15 of these frozen cubes and unseen phosphate to my system.
If anyone is still concerned about this low level of phosphate in some older batches of salt then we propose that you contact Tony by email at tony@theaquariumsolution.com (tony@theaquariumsolution.com) .
If you send him the batch number of your salt we will check it against the list send you out a 50ml sample bag of Rowaphos which would completely remove any phosphate from about 10 buckets of salt.
I am sure that the positive results and balance that people are achieving with the creatures in their aquariums when using our salt will allow you to accept this unfortunate batch oversight on our side.
All the best
Stuart
A very precise analysis of the issue, but sorry seems to be the hardest word......
just-reefin
20-05-09, 22:51
Good of D&D to admit there was a problem, but I'm sure we would all like to know which batch numbers are affected though!
A very precise analysis of the issue, but sorry seems to be the hardest word......
Please don't Have a POP at them, they have found a problem when they could of said there was non, David Saxby is even going to use the Affected batches on HIS OWN TANK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRubZGWXiY) (click it if you have not seen it) till its all gone, this alone should tell you that there is nothing really wrong with the salt as a whole but for retail purposes it is not what they want to promote, + they are sending 50ml of Rowaphos to all that have been effected by this.
Good of D&D to admit there was a problem, but I'm sure we would all like to know which batch numbers are affected though!
If you think you have a problem then Email them your Batch number and they will tell you if it was effected and send you enough Rowa to sort out 5000 lts of water.
By doing it this way it prevents people from Just saying they have effected Salt and claiming the Free Rowa, if you get my drift. By sending them your Batch number it proves weather you have effected salt or not.
Deepee pretty well hits the nail on the head,by leaving the batch numbers up on the open forum could lead to some claiming without even owning any H20 salt.
There is nothing to stop casual surfers that dont even have a membership to Ultimate reef doing the same.We want the Rowa to go to genuine cases.
shaunsreef
21-05-09, 07:53
You should publish the batch numbers now you have admitted there is a problem, your product isnt doing what you say it does ... on your website it says it is free from phosphate and some batches arent, therefor a refund should be offered to those with affected batch buckets IMO
i dont see why people are so accepting when it comes to bad salt batches, in the end its a product containing something it shouldnt, in any other industry you would be forced to recall the bad batches and offer refunds or exchanges to people with bad items
We are talking about a minuscule amount of PO4 that can be removed Quite simply with the Use of some PO4 remover you could even run the remover in the bucket you use to mix it if you don't use it on your display tank, which the supplier is willing to Send out free of charge. How do you propose to issue a recall on 22kg buckets of salt that could be spread out all over the country, publishing the Batch numbers Just opens them up for all sorts of fraudulent claims, D-D don't know who bought their salt and certainly not all of them use this forum. Tony didn't have to notify us that they had found a problem with one of their salt batches and by doing so has effectively tarnished the reputation of the D-D salt brand, but he did to ensure there is a satisfactory outcome for the customer. If people just get on their high horses and start stamping their feet, then they won't come on forums like this and offer us discounts and personally sort out problems we have with products from time to time, we will have to go through the normal Customer services and we all know they can be a right PITA.
Personally I think this is a good solution to the situation, could you imagine going through this with other Brand salts that you don't have direct contact with the manufacturer.
Its Just my opinion .......... :wave:
shaunsreef
21-05-09, 09:17
We are talking about a minuscule amount of PO4 that can be removed Quite simply with the Use of some PO4 remover you could even run the remover in the bucket you use to mix it if you don't use it on your display tank, which the supplier is willing to Send out free of charge. How do you propose to issue a recall on 22kg buckets of salt that could be spread out all over the country, publishing the Batch numbers Just opens them up for all sorts of fraudulent claims, D-D don't know who bought their salt and certainly not all of them use this forum. Tony didn't have to notify us that they had found a problem with one of their salt batches and by doing so has effectively tarnished the reputation of the D-D salt brand, but he did to ensure there is a satisfactory outcome for the customer. If people just get on their high horses and start stamping their feet, then they won't come on forums like this and offer us discounts and personally sort out problems we have with products from time to time, we will have to go through the normal Customer services and we all know they can be a right PITA.
Personally I think this is a good solution to the situation, could you imagine going through this with other Brand salts that you don't have direct contact with the manufacturer.
Its Just my opinion .......... :wave:
This salt isnt cheap, and when spending £50+ on one bucket of salt i expect it to be at the correct levels, i shouldnt have to run a po4 remover on something that should allready be po4 free IMO.
Yes it never should have happened, but it did. Sometimes things go wrong, it's how often they go wrong and what's done to fix them that matters.
Makes sense to me that its better for everyone (including the environment) to send 50grams of rowaphos to fix a problem rather than cart 22kg buckets back and forth.
As for the salt not being cheap, actually I've found it is one of the cheaper of the premium brands and of the others I've used, they ofetn failed to provide "correct levels" of a variety of major parameters when I tested them resulting in me adding buffers like Mg and Ca at my own expense.
I'm sure that if there had been something actually harmful and hard to remove in the salt then a recall would have been made but for this it would just be a waste of everyones time and money. In my opnion they have acted in the best interests of the customer (me).
Ive had a few mails from members contacting me with barcodes from the bucket, i actually need the batch numbers printed on the info sheet that comes inside the bucket.
Id also appreciate your salt mix PO4 results.
As mentioned we are dealing with an extremely small amount of PO4 in this case that is easily fixed with a very small amount of Rowaphos.
PO4 is present in all foods that we add to the aquarium,it cant be avoided, that includes flake(the amount present in some flake may actually shock you).
So in the big scheme of things the small amount of po4 found in the effected buckets expressed as a very small percentage of weekly PO4 we dump into our tanks is a non issue. However we have to manage PO4 correctly as part of our husbandry or PO4 will build up in any system regardless of what salt we use.
I do not see what else D-D could do apart from taking steps to prevent it hapening again, which they have done.
The only issue i have is this:
"Following your comments we have made some examinations and found that we have produced a couple of batches of salt with low levels of phosphate present and we appreciate you bringing this to our attention as for all the readings are very low we would rather that there was none in at all . This level is present at approximately 0.026mg/lt (P) or 0.08mg/lt (PO4) and the level that we recommend is maintained in your aquarium is at 0.05mg/lt (PO4)."
I partly agree with this as we know absolute PO4 means no Zoanthalae and that means dead corals, right??
Then why oh why does it state on the instructions for the D-D PO4 test kit:
"0 Optimum, 0.008 Good, 0.015 Acceptable and pretty much anything above is a problem"???:confused:
what kind of psychic reefer keeps instructions for a bucket of salt anyway :annoyed:
FWIW
Stuart, im my x years of experience of him is without a doubt an upstanding guy, other manufacuturers should learn from his honesty and decent approach to his customers. In THIS industry it's outstanding.
HOWEVER, when you state 0 PO4 on a packet, then you should deliver to the standard. From what i understand, this is not possible to achieve, neither is it a problem and therefore the marketing material should be changed to reflect reasonable levels of tolerance.
.05 is NOT acceptable,as per the recommendations on the D&D PO4 test kit. This statement is of grave concern.
Amongst others, I use D&D salt, but my mixing system has a PO4 reactor, so I have no idea on what the Raw levels are. I personally do not trust the levels of ANY salt or my RO, but that is neither here nor there, it's simple, do not advertise that which you cannot deliver.
Under the circumstances it is perfectly reasonable for customers to request the batch numbers to be published.
It is also IMO wholly unreasonable for people to expect a refund/exchange whereby the Po4 levels in their salt mix are above .05. That's just causing grief for the sheer hell of it. Even at .05, a well designed system will take care of things fairly rapidly.
Salt manufacturers need to simply print more accurate/realistic information, and consumers simply need to undertstand that they should take 'additional' maesures to secure the safety of their keepsakes.
two simple changes, everyone knows where they stand, and no worries.
none the less, PRINT the batch numbers, be clear in the actions you will take to make appropriate changes so the consumer has a CLEAR picture.
It's better to print that you have .03 PO4 MAX and deliver the standard than to follow the sheep and say it's zero and fail to deliver!
I sincerely hope D&D have the integrity to print the batch numbers/reveal the true facts/say it how it is and progress to a new/better chapter.
Above all, be consistent in the message across the ENTIRE product range. There are many ways to skin a cat, and there is fundamentally no right way, just be consistent in the messaging!
just my opinion
N
Totally respect where you are coming from N but as mentioned before displaying the batch numbers on an open forum could open the flood gates and we become inundated with claims for Rowa from people that dont even use the salt.
Whilst sending out Rowa to these people those that have actually purchased the product may not get priority.
The new salt batches will be at 0 PO4 ,its very unfortunate that due to faulty batch the salt did not meet specification in this instance.
give them abreak theyv'e admitted wrong and are trying to rectify it. its human nature to get things wrong and worse things have happened:cool:
When will the new batches be on the shelves?
Better batches are already out there, after starting the thread i went out and bought another bucket, it was much better.
No need for a recall/refund if you ask me. I just mix some older salt with the new and i get 'acceptable' levels.
dxmarinefish
23-05-09, 15:12
Just come across this thread.
Now I know why after having no cyno i got a major growth after using 1 full bucket of this salt to change my water over a period of 1 month.
Glad to see D-D are prepared to own up and try their best to rectify this situation.
I have emailed Tony my batch number (bought 3 buckets, used one up..major cyno..half way through the 2nd..one left unopened)
Email sent with batch number of salt used yesterday, as mix was already made!
Awaiting reply.
You have tested a fresh mix before posting this, right??
Don't think the levels are as high as to cause a major problem when used for water changes.
Can you give me the PO4 readings of your fresh mix please peeps.
dxmarinefish
29-05-09, 13:28
RowaPhos arrived today, thanks Tony.
No worries ,thanks for your patience.
Tony
I do a lot more reading on here than I do posting, mainly because most people on here know an awful lot more than I do, however, I feel I just have to respond to the comments so far.
Although I've had a marine tank for years, it was only four years ago that I really started keeping corals and getting into the hobby properly. My tank was flourishing, right up until we moved house 2.5 years ago. I had a crash and lost a lot of stock after moving and took the decision to shut the tank down until I could devote more time and money to get it running again. 3 months ago a filled the tank again, using my now dried out live rock and decided to slowly try and get back to where I was before we moved.
The tank (48x24x24 with 24x18x15 sump) has now cycled and gone through various algal blooms. The tank currently only has two pyjama cardinals and a YT in, the YT has mopped up most of the algae. Now I know I should have run Rowaphos or similar from day 1, but in anticipation of stocking with corals, I have bought some more Rowa and a new test kit. My PO4 reading is 0.25 !!!! Yet, my cyano has come and now all but gone. 0.25 is three times the reading of the maximum found in D-D salt. I'm not anticipating any problems getting it down either, I now have chaeto in my sump and am starting to use Rowa.
Now, I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you guys I know, and I'm probably going to get shot down in flames (there seems a lot of people on here who like doing that, one of the reasons I don't post much), but..... I find it hard to believe a reading of 0.08, especially when used for water changes is going to make any difference at all. Everyone with a reef tank should have some sort of phosphate removal system in place, be it chaeto or Rowa or whatever, this level of phosphate would (I should think) make no difference whatsoever. As Tony pointed out, you are adding phosphates every time you feed the fish anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any cyano outbreaks aren't linked to the salt, but, the PO4 readings are so low that more phosphate is added with feeding than is present in the salt, and ANY phosphate removal system should have no problem removing such a small level.
I think it is highly commendable that Tony has come on the site and admitted a problem and has put something in place to help the people using the affected batches and to prevent it happening again, and I can wholly understand why he doesn't wish to make public the affected batches.
Come on guys put it into perspective a bit, it's such a small amount, and it not difficult to remove it either, we should be thanking sponsors such as D-D for coming on a site like this and helping instead of remaining invisible to the general public like most companies are.
So, thanks for being so open and honest Tony, none of the threads here will stop me buying your salt in future, in fact I am more likely to knowing that if there is a problem, there is always someone to talk to. If only more manufacturers were like you.
End of rant !
scooby_rex
02-06-09, 14:03
simple question, where are the batch numbers located.
im on my 3rd bucket of H2Ocean used the first to fill the system and i have had p04 problems since day 1. ive manged to get them down to 0.01. Im not convinced this all came from the salt it is probably locked up in the live rock.
shaunsreef
02-06-09, 14:45
I do a lot more reading on here than I do posting, mainly because most people on here know an awful lot more than I do, however, I feel I just have to respond to the comments so far.
Although I've had a marine tank for years, it was only four years ago that I really started keeping corals and getting into the hobby properly. My tank was flourishing, right up until we moved house 2.5 years ago. I had a crash and lost a lot of stock after moving and took the decision to shut the tank down until I could devote more time and money to get it running again. 3 months ago a filled the tank again, using my now dried out live rock and decided to slowly try and get back to where I was before we moved.
The tank (48x24x24 with 24x18x15 sump) has now cycled and gone through various algal blooms. The tank currently only has two pyjama cardinals and a YT in, the YT has mopped up most of the algae. Now I know I should have run Rowaphos or similar from day 1, but in anticipation of stocking with corals, I have bought some more Rowa and a new test kit. My PO4 reading is 0.25 !!!! Yet, my cyano has come and now all but gone. 0.25 is three times the reading of the maximum found in D-D salt. I'm not anticipating any problems getting it down either, I now have chaeto in my sump and am starting to use Rowa.
Now, I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you guys I know, and I'm probably going to get shot down in flames (there seems a lot of people on here who like doing that, one of the reasons I don't post much), but..... I find it hard to believe a reading of 0.08, especially when used for water changes is going to make any difference at all. Everyone with a reef tank should have some sort of phosphate removal system in place, be it chaeto or Rowa or whatever, this level of phosphate would (I should think) make no difference whatsoever. As Tony pointed out, you are adding phosphates every time you feed the fish anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any cyano outbreaks aren't linked to the salt, but, the PO4 readings are so low that more phosphate is added with feeding than is present in the salt, and ANY phosphate removal system should have no problem removing such a small level.
I think it is highly commendable that Tony has come on the site and admitted a problem and has put something in place to help the people using the affected batches and to prevent it happening again, and I can wholly understand why he doesn't wish to make public the affected batches.
Come on guys put it into perspective a bit, it's such a small amount, and it not difficult to remove it either, we should be thanking sponsors such as D-D for coming on a site like this and helping instead of remaining invisible to the general public like most companies are.
So, thanks for being so open and honest Tony, none of the threads here will stop me buying your salt in future, in fact I am more likely to knowing that if there is a problem, there is always someone to talk to. If only more manufacturers were like you.
End of rant !
i see what your saying, but then the salt shouldnt be advertised as phosphate free, it should say ' contains very small ammounts ' ... do you not agree?
Scooby rex-test a fresh salt mix, if it comes up with a PO4 reading then we would be more than happy to supply you with some Rowaphos to address the small amount of PO4.
The batch number is printed on the instruction leaflet in the bucket.
Shaunsreef- Its unfortunate that the small amount of PO4 found its way into the salt mix as Stuart explains a few posts back.
The new batches of salt will be PO4 free as advertised.
umm, instruction leaflet is normally the first thing to go in the bin as I open the tub. Not a great place to put the batch number!
I noticed high phosphate in 2 buckets of D-D Salt I had. I used it anyway as it was a low(ish) amount and I was not going to waste salt that cost me £52 a tub!
I have since moved to another brand, if I find any leaflets then I will email through the batch numbers but I can not supply test results for reasons above.
It is good to get a frank and open admission from D-D on the matter though :thumbsup:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2009Q1/rowaphos_1.JPG
stuck with an almost full bucket of iffy H20cean and since my rowaphos remedy(see above) arrived on Friday, nearly a third of the tiny bag supplied has been needed to take less than 5 gallon salt mix from 0.045 to 0.03 mg/l
less than happy right now:annoyed:
Matt,how did you use it and how long did you run it for?
Its best used in a small in tank filter or in a power head cage to get the water through it.It might not work very well if its been hung in the bucket tea bag style.
The Rowa phos can be re used between water changes as it should have loads more life left in the sample.Just stick it in a plastic zip up bag so it doesnt dry out.
Hi Tony
I used the tea bag method and tested every day for several days. Thought that was acceptable having emailed you earlier about it, as below.
-------------------------
"Will it work to simply put some rowaphos in the white bag and leave in the salt mix for a while or must I rig up a cannister/filter of some type"
Your reply:
"Just a small amount in a white sock should be fine,you only need about 5ml to clear the whole bucket of the trace of phosphate in it.
So i suggest just using 5-10ml per mix in the sock ,if you use anymore you
could find quite a few fines in the bottom of the bucket although they are
harmless .
If the bucket is being well mixed with a large pump it may be worth giving
the bag of Rowa a quick rinse in a little old tank water or RO to wash out the worst of the fines as the pump may aggitate the bag a give your water a
brown tint."
-------------------------
I must admit I wasn't circulating the mix while using the bag so perhaps that was a problem. Got loads of fines even without circulation so will have to buy some floss and rig up a cannister I guess. Deep joy
Hi Matt
Apologies as it would seem my reply wasn't too clear.The Rowa will need some flow around it or preferably through it.Seeing as you are using a small amount the mix pump should agitate the Rowa enough so the water gets good contact time with it.
You may need to experiment to get this just right within a small body of water,obviously you don't want a power head blasting a little filter bag as you'll get fines everywhere.
I personally use an old Hagen 402 or 802 with a quick filter if i ever want to use carbon or rowa on a small holding/quarantine tank.Anything along those lines should work well and mix your salt too, just sandwich the bag between a little floss to catch fines.
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