View Full Version : Live Rock v's Reef Bones "we think no competition"
Marine Life
13-06-09, 12:26
We are getting lots of customers who have been set up by other stores with "reef bones" and bacteria cultures coming into our store or contacting us for help!!
Most of the problems seem to be ever increasing levels of Phosphate or the systems are just not maturing and now for the asthetic reasons! it just looks crap! no algae, coraline or other microfauna! no chance of any freebee corals or hitch hykers (good or bad) and very importantly no natural occuring bacteria!!
We agree its cheaper so a more affordable option very important these days but getting it right first time is just as important?
Are we going back to the 1980's or earlier! surely we have moved on and progressed ?
How do you run your system?? would you change anything??
We recomend Live Rock !!
So please whats your views??
When voting please note that the Live Rock option is for just that and Reef Bones & Bacteria is for just that ie not a mix of Live Rock in the System.
jesseh1988
13-06-09, 12:33
i have a mix of about 50/50 live to bones. as you said there are no unwanted hitchhikers, but for me more importantly its a lot cheaper! i have a big tank and there was no way i was able to spend ££££'s of pounds on live rock.
I like live rock.
I've scored for a few freebie corals on the LR I've bought from Jason but the most important thing for me is not having to wait months before it can function as an effective bio filter. You also get lots of the natural food for the more specialised feeders like Mandarins without having to buy them separately.
I wasn't aware reef bones could cause Phosphate problems but that is just another reason I wouldn't use them.
JMHO
Cheers
Paul
How about a third option to include man made rock?
How I see it:
Live rock - currently being massively overcollected, yes it's good, but at what price environmentally (cue Ross)? Eco rock would be a better solution here, ie man made rock left to 'seed' in shallow areas
Reef bones - currently utilised in my tank (along with about 10-15% LR). No problems for ages, then recently it's algae central. Currently trying to ride it out, but it's frustrating to say the least.
Man-made rock - you know the ingrediants, you determine the shapes, you know there will be no nasties. All you need is some farm grunge or a few pieces of live rock to seed it. If I ever change my set up, I'll look into this method for sure.
im happy with good old live rock
R
LR for me although agree that perhaps will use some man made mixed with LR for any future new builds
Marine Life
15-06-09, 15:09
Hello,
We used to sell in the shop the Cultivated Live Rock supplied by TMC pretty close to man made rock although this was dry dead rock placed back into the ocean to re-populate "reseed" itself so it had the bacteria population but little fauna, colour and was not that pleasing to the eye a bit of a (dare I say it) concrete look to it! dont get us wrong it did work and produced some nice systems.
But cost sadly as with most eco freindly ideas cost was the downside, I think that the trade cost was the same if not more as true Fiji Live rock!
So we priced the cultivated rock up less than the true Fiji Live Rock but sadly few customers would buy it no matter how hard we pushed saving the wild resources side of things, ultimately we found that customers thought that it sounded great in theory but decided not to buy it opting for the Fiji Live Rock instead based on the cost and value for money.
This is a great shame and until trade suppliers realise that cultivated rock and maybe Tank raised Fish or inverts (although costly to produce) should be financialy cheaper than wild livestock if they are to sucseed in the market.
Any how thats just our findings and it has got away from the original idea of the post and poll but a very important issue non the less.
So many thanks for that.
I dont think its as cut and dry personally. Over the years I have used all sorts of combo's, inc Berlin, all LR and even Tuff in the bad old days.
On my cube I used Reefbones in the main display as it allowed me to aquascape the way I wanted without worrying about die off/exposure from the messing about.
I do however have my sump 50% filled with living rock rubble for the bacteria, pods and fauna. I also remind everyone that every bit of coral you add comes with a bit of LR so you do build up the fauna and coraline. Mine is only 6 months old and its terrible. I have to clean the glass every day to keep on top of the coraline.
The back of my tank
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bozleys_mum/DSC01797.jpg
I used prodibio/biodigest as the feed to bring the bacteria culture up to speed and anyone in the NE is welcome to visit my tank. Some on here have seen it already and Im overdue a few piccies so ill post them tonight, but all the ways work, you just have to choose which suits you and your pocket and have the patience needed to run a sucessful reef.
If I were to go again, reefbones and LR in the sump every time.
This is after 6 months
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bozleys_mum/DSC01798.jpg
Regards
Dave
Jason, I appreciate the advice as well, but I am a little surprised having read this that your having a bit of a go at the other shops and alternative set up methods. I sort of expect this from others but bnot one of the only 2 shops I use
A lot of the problems you mention have little to do with the LR or RB they are newbie mistakes that cause the problems and the lack of proper maintenance or in the main stocking too quickly and overstocking/overfeeding.
Aesthetically I have to disagree about the bones. i used them in my 7ft reef and no one knew the difference. I use them in my small cube and I challenge anyone to tell (other than you dont get the plates I have used in LR batches).
Shame as I thought/hoped we had passed this LFS sniping in the NE and moved on from the 80's
My tank is anything but old fashionbed, but I have to disagree and suggest that anyone thinking of either options seeks advice from the wider board community.
All routes lead to a reef as long as your patient.
Regards
Dave
Marine Life
15-06-09, 22:00
Hello Dave,
Firstly you know me better than that, I have no interest in joining in the "sniping" at other shops that you suggest and my appologies to you or anyone else who feels that way.
The majority of problems from people contacting us are from "newbies" into the hobby, you have managed to succesfully run many systems and have a lot of experience as I have, learnt and continue to learn over the the last 30 years, your system looks great but it is not a system run on Reef Bones and a bacteria culture alone, has a newcomer got this experience?? to do this when they have not had an aquarium before??
We can all learn, but we must be shown properly in order to grasp the knowledge to run this system or any system no matter how it is run and there is no one more in need of this knowledge than a new comer to keeping marines.
In short alternative methods are great but can only sucseed if the reefkeeper has the knowledge or more importantly shown it in order to run the system correctly.
Cheers
Jason
bought up live rock from a tank been broken down also bought reef bones from a fellow member, and a couple of kgs from shop just for a different seed,
shop rock gave me a bobbit worm and two large coral crunching crabs (all now gone)
reef bones given me algae but dont have too much bones and is only on them
live rock from broken tank no bother :)
when i lived in england i bought the cultivated live rock (approx 50%of my rock) and was impressed with it,
as mentioned the cost and slight concrete apperance does put people off it but reckon this could well be the future
Jason as you know. I set my tank up with Reef Bones and seeded it with Bacteria, then after a few weeks/months I bought some Live Rock to help out with the filtration.
Personally, I'm pleased to have gone down the Reef Bones route ... mainly down to the fact I couldn't afford to buy all the LR I would have needed. However, I don't think you can run it without some kind of LR in there to help seed things, unless you willing to wait a LONG time.
Ben
having just set up a new tank and being a newbie as well, i.e. back into keeping marines for 12months, I talked through options with a number of LFS and other members of UR re LR vs RB.
Having set up a nano 12 months ago with LR and a cycle time of only a couple of weeks things led me to the LR only direction.
However, in the nano we did suffer from hitch hikers on the LR that did go on to cause some problems and the loss of a number of fish.
A mantis and 2 other unidentified crabs were caught over a 9 month period and this was after numerous traps were used.
So after the problems of the Hitch hikers I did start to sway to RB or a mix of LR/RB for the new set up, just to avoid the hitch hiker problem.
Yes the cost option was a consideration....
However, after many discussions with Jason and reading one thread on here (Clayton Smith Tread) my mind was made up, and with a bit of negotiating 30kg of Fiji LR was secured.
I have subsequently added another 15kg from a local UR member, which did allow me to balance out the overall cost.
So as they say you pay your money and take your choice.
But from a newbie, the simpler option of LR, and spending some time going over the LR with a wood pick checking for any nasty's to me is the best way to go.
And I now have a stable tank, and for me what I hope will be a great looking set up that can only grow and get better over the years.
Barry
I used all reef bones this time and seeded it with water and sand from a mature system. If I went this route again i'd start curing the rock way before starting the tank build...
Good points are that you can take your time and aquascape it 'dry' with no problems, and its half the price and in my experience mush more porous than 'live rock.
My tank is 10 months old now and the reef bones are colouring up nicely now and i have oodles of pod life.
Would i use reef bones again, most certainly! Might even make my own rock next time.
If you want instant purple rock then that route isn't so good, but it was fine for me.
Hi
Having been one of the most staunch supporters of Live rock as a great way to run an aquarium.
The latest tank I am doing for the ITC office is based around plating reefbones plus zeobak and food, plus 4kg of Ultra grade rock just to add a bit of bio diversity.
Its early days but the most important thing is to soak the rock in agitated RO water until you no longer get a PO4 reading.
Currently there is a bit of algae, phosphate has remained 0 although I am running a phosphate remover and the various zeo additives.
I think the hobby is a broad church and these days people are looking for different ways that work. I think live rock has many virtues but after years of doing live rock tanks I was interested to experiment with the Plating stuff and bacteria.
As for filtration the rock work is as Spartan as it can get and the intention is to just have a basic structure to attach sps corals to as well as the back or sides of the aquarium. The main brunt of the biological filtration will be through the zeovit stones. The reactor is cycled three hours on and 3 hours off to allow de nitrification.
15 days into the process on a 600lt tank no ammonia no nitrite, the tank contains 10 corals 4 fish 36 mixed grazers. The zeovit ,zeobak, and zeostart have given a great start to the system.
As for selling dead rock and bacteria systems to the customer, as anyone who knows me will tell you I have spent all my aquatic retail life selling Live Rock as the basis of some great systems.
As I said earlier I have always seen Reefkeeping as a broad church and selling a customer dead rock and bacteria if done correctly would not be a problem IMHO. It is no more than a 10 point plan of what to do.
As with all things YMMV
A good topic
regards Jez
Jez,
great points, but for a noob (aka Me..!) , is LR still not the safest and most simple?
agree if you have years of exsperiance then RB can give some realy intersting and great scaping results, but to have a zeo based sytem for a noob like me would be a step to far for most, IMO.
B
Barry,
I had only done Marine for a year before I switched to RB with Bacteria.
As long as the "Newbie" is advised properly about the do's and don't then I think RB with Bacteria is a good route. Especially in the current climate.
Personally, I think LR is the best option for filtration, but if your on a budget and can be patient then RB is a acceptable route to take.
The other plus point with Reef Bones is that it should help reduce the impact on removal of LR from the Sea's.
Ben
Jason, I'm building a new system and don't want to go the bones route (again) but there is one issue for me - can you supply me live branches? I'm guessing probably not because the only sources I can find are dem bones.
Hello, Sadly no Live Rock Branches in at the moment, used some in a shop display to raise live rock of the bottom keeps the crap out!
Cheers Jason
Barry,
I had only done Marine for a year before I switched to RB with Bacteria.
As long as the "Newbie" is advised properly about the do's and don't then I think RB with Bacteria is a good route. Especially in the current climate.
Personally, I think LR is the best option for filtration, but if your on a budget and can be patient then RB is a acceptable route to take.
The other plus point with Reef Bones is that it should help reduce the impact on removal of LR from the Sea's.
Ben
Ben, completely agree re the impact upon the environment re the removal of LR, however. If RB were seeded within the sea as happens in florida etc. would we get the best of both worlds?
as there must be some impact by the collection of reefbones, at least some where?
B
Are reefbones not collected as the result of storm damage etc?
Are reefbones not collected as the result of storm damage etc?
mmmm?
how is LR collected?
is one not just the dried out version of the other?
then if so, why do we not see LR plates....:(
I went to a presentation by TMC, and one of their underlying principles is ethical collection, so as a LR wholesaler, would they not prescribe to this also for LR?
i'm off for a lye down in a dark room:D
B
They are meant to be. Thats their sales pitch.
In terms of new people to the hobby, I would advocate a mix of bones and LR anway. that way you get the scaping benefits of RB with the living properties of rock. In my main tank I used plates for the main structure but lumps of LR between these as seperators. i also used rubble LR in the sump. the bacteria is cultured bacteria and whilst it naturally takes time to permeate the rock, it does offer the same long term benefits of LR (although I accept no hitchhikers (friend or foe).
I have not seen quality LR for a few years though and whilst branching is nice to look at, its often difficult to scape with and the rest is often very large or very small chunks.
its horses for courses, but my tanks demonstrates (to me at least) that its workable with RB and small elements of LR, as long as your patient and prepared to go slow
I have seen stinkers of tanks with tuffa, RB and LR so I dont think the rock is the common component. Its usually the rush/hurry to buy and put things in, even when the tank is not ready.
Good luck with any of your endeavours
Dave
Norvern Rob
17-06-09, 21:42
DIY rock is the future IMO. Around 75% cheaper than LR, guaranteed no unwanted critters or pest corals and you can make whatever shapes you want.
My dad's tank is around 75% DIY rock I made and you can't tell it from the real LR now the tank is a year old.
Hi
For those who ask is a zeo tank for beginners my simple answer is if thats what interests you as a method of filtration then go for it.
All I am doing is dosing zeobak and zeostart2 and a couple of drops of sponge power.
As a newbie you are on a learning curve regardless so having the level of instructions and support thats available on zeovit.com. Is a great way to go.
As for live rock its not a bad way to go but you have a few more options and better support these days..
regards Jez
Marine Life
18-06-09, 12:45
Hello Jez,
We use our self and stock Zeo and Korallen products in the shop impressed by them.
We converted a coral system over last year looks like its working well.
Cheers
Jason
JOHN & CAM
18-06-09, 13:34
John and I used nearly all live rock and love it, however we used reef bones for some specific shapes required and in a month or two you cant tell the difference. I think you dont get as many plates in live rock as it's so heavy and can be massive.
were is my post gone :confused:
I think that a sales pitch in a competitors thread was always going to get removed ;) :D
sorry but no sales pitch with my point of view and a realistic view at that.
but saying as though as far as im aware im the only sponser in the NE that is selling reefbones then its only fair that i get to say my bit as it seems marine life is pulling a product down that many people are using and are having good results with .
if i was pulling a product apart that i didnt sell but another sponser did then im sure they would like there say also
if it was a moderator who removed the thread then if you wont mind you can edit it to your liking and put it back up remove my shops name remove what you like but at least let me have my say on something .
only seems fair
or just ask jason if he minds it being there im sure he wont .
he is after all a good guy with just a mis informed view on the matter
thanks again
all the best
shaun.
p.s come on though take it easy 1st day back of my holz and i was hoping not to type to much
:thanks:
Marine Life
19-06-09, 17:57
Hello Shaun,
If you could just take the trouble to read the original post with care these are views of customers coming into our store
We are getting lots of customers who have been set up by other stores with "reef bones" and bacteria cultures coming into our store or contacting us for help!!
Most of the problems seem to be ever increasing levels of Phosphate or the systems are just not maturing and now for the asthetic reasons! it just looks crap! no algae, coraline or other microfauna! no chance of any freebee corals or hitch hykers (good or bad) and very importantly no natural occuring bacteria!!
The product (Reef Bones) is widely available in the North, throughout the UK and has been supplied by us on occasions.
Further more this is not a new product or if I am mistaken a rebranded product and just another method of running a marine system succesfully or otherwise.
We have no wish to get into any confrontation with you or anyone but are simply asking for views on systems set up using Reef Bones and Bacteria Cultures in order to help out customers having problems who contact us.
Please let them have there views.
Many thanks
Jason
ever increasing levels of Phosphate = we all know what to do here easy fix ask muzzy d-d tropic marin brightwell or any other company who supply such products after all most tanks out there run some sort of phos remover - phosphate can come from many places but of course there is going to be more from this rock as it will be trapped within it as it is dryed.
systems are just not maturing = people either being to quick to add stock normally a case of customers being turned away from a shop before there tank is mature enough as being advised to wait . and then going to another local store and being sold anything just to make a few quid .
ask anyone its always best to take your time
asthetic reasons! it just looks crap!== sorry on this one but the statment is a load of cr%p imo anyway . some of the best looking reef tanks out there are built around reef bones . most people on this forum will agree the shapes and plates you can get are a lot better than the choice of lr
no algae, coraline or other microfauna= thats because its dead rock to start of with m8 if you dont add it it will never grow .. another easy one just add some in there coraline pods a few bits of live rock with some life on it or wait till you start adding corals most of them are mounted on bits of live rock containing pods and coraline
no chance of any freebee corals or hitch hykers how often do you get freebee corals that are worth anything anyway some people do but nothing worth doing cartwheels over . again any hitch hikers well depends if you want them .. if you do its a easy answer .. = use live rock .. reef bones is not for everyone
very importantly no natural occuring bacteria= very easy if the bones are set up correctly and you do it how it should be either by adding some LR or bacteria then natural occuring bacteria will grow within the system its quite simple .. the people who struggle will always be the ones who try to rush things .
Marine Life
19-06-09, 20:57
Hello Shaun,
Thanks for the input and offer of support, as I said the customers are coming to us have the problems already before they ask us for advice.
As I said also this is not a new product (Reef Bones) or a way of running a Marine system we ran systems of this type years ago both succesfully and unsuccesfully and so feel we are in a good position to advise, sure we can take on board your comments, pass them on as well with all the support and comments from people who have posted.
Thanks once again and hope now you can respect our wishes and let this post run its course now.
Jason
dem bones dem bones dem dry bones.....
simon garratt
19-06-09, 23:16
I think the biggest issue with reefbones is its inconsistancy with regards to the total amount of dessicated organic matter it has trapped within it from batch to batch.
This is why there are such widely differing opinions on its worth as a media. some people have no problems, others , have non stop, long term major issues.
ever increasing levels of Phosphate = we all know what to do here easy fix ask muzzy d-d tropic marin brightwell or any other company who supply such products after all most tanks out there run some sort of phos remover - phosphate can come from many places but of course there is going to be more from this rock as it will be trapped within it as it is dryed.
Sadly Shaun im afraid its not quite as simple in some of the cases ive seen. It would take years and hundreds of pounds worth of media or chemicals to breakdown the sheer mass of organic matter ive seen trapped in some RB. and thats only if you can get to it before algae takes over and starts feeding at a local level preventing the releases even making it into the open water column for alternate methods. Once you are in this state its vertually impossible to cure in some cases.
Admitedly in some cases it is impatience that causes the issues, but certainly not all from what ive seen.
I think the main thing is, that all systems can work if the user understands the limitations and criteria required to make the best of that media.
Im still as much a LR fan as ive ever been despite running a reef thats nigh on 100% fake LR. I simply see now that good quality LR and its inherantly greater diversity can serve alternate roles rather than simply decoration and mounting space, ie in cryptic zones and as a seed for man made rock structures.
I doubt we will ever see 'no' need for LR or Lr rubble. We'll simply 'and hopefully' see a reduction in its demand, and a lowering of its impact on the environment.
Regards
Simon.
I think the biggest issue with reefbones is its inconsistancy with regards to the total amount of dessicated organic matter it has trapped within it from batch to batch.
This is why there are such widely differing opinions on its worth as a media. some people have no problems, others , have non stop, long term major issues.
Sadly Shaun im afraid its not quite as simple in some of the cases ive seen. It would take years and hundreds of pounds worth of media or chemicals to breakdown the sheer mass of organic matter ive seen trapped in some RB. and thats only if you can get to it before algae takes over and starts feeding at a local level preventing the releases even making it into the open water column for alternate methods. Once you are in this state its vertually impossible to cure in some cases.
Admitedly in some cases it is impatience that causes the issues, but certainly not all from what ive seen.
I think the main thing is, that all systems can work if the user understands the limitations and criteria required to make the best of that media.
Im still as much a LR fan as ive ever been despite running a reef thats nigh on 100% fake LR. I simply see now that good quality LR and its inherantly greater diversity can serve alternate roles rather than simply decoration and mounting space, ie in cryptic zones and as a seed for man made rock structures.
I doubt we will ever see 'no' need for LR or Lr rubble. We'll simply 'and hopefully' see a reduction in its demand, and a lowering of its impact on the environment.
Regards
Simon.
ok i know i said i was not going to post again but hey i couldnt resist
simon i agree100%
there is no better alternitive than live rock for diversity
and again i agree that some peices of RB may contain more dead organic matter than other peices causing phos levels
. but no more really than a bad peice of live rock if it had bad shipments and was not cured correctly .
again ive seen it you get good live rock you get bad live rock
however it really is all down to the end user making sure they soak rinse cure seed the rock and check water levels before they introduce anything .
dont get me wrong i still love live rock and would never try to change anyones mind if they were 100% happy to go with it . but RB OR man made rock must be offered as a alternitave not just because of the value of saving but to help some of the reefs out there
i think thats the real focus of this thread anyway
ok jason i promise ill not post on here again sorry m8
I cant see why you cant post here as long as its on topic. Its an open forum
Dave
Marine Life
20-06-09, 16:44
Hello Dave
The answer is within your post and you have managed to answer your own question.
"as long as its on topic"
I cant see why you cant post here as long as its on topic. Its an open forum
Best wishes
Jason
I recently set up an upgrade and used mainly bones along with the live rock from my nano. I'm really happy with the shapes I could get and have so far seen no problems. I did cure the bones for a full 2 months with both biodigest and some live rubble and gravel and I do think that they needed this much time to help avoid problems. I also ran phos remover during curing and now have no phos problems in the tank.
Should I be able to upgrade again then I'd definately do the same again
Owen
TRIGGER-HAPPY
27-06-09, 09:27
I have my tank set up using reef bones, and before the bones my bio filtration was done through external media the latter now has been removed and the bones are doing an excellent job, my tank is 220 liters, and i only have three fish - Percula - Flame Goby - Coral Beauty. so my bio load is not that great granted but like Shaun said slowly does it is the key, of that i have no doubt but having said that the same policy goes for everybody regardless.
I also agree with Shaun that is a lot better to scape with.
But at the end of the day you pay your money and take your choice but whatever you choose take it slow for success.:)
Martin
Well, for me it has to be 'Live Rock' every time
I've used it in two systems now and within a couple of months the tanks look fantastic - it just makes sense to use something that will benefit the health, balance and water quality of the tank right from the start
The vast amount of natural microflora and microfauna you get on live rock has to benefit the system immediately and help fast establishment - why buy dead cheaper alternatives, which are potentially going to cause you a problem eg. long term phosphate levels, and end up spending a fortune on bacteria and chemicals to try and replicate what the live rock would give you in the first place ?
To me the live rock is the foundation of the tank (just like the tank, you'll have it for years) - it won't cost more than the tank itself and you wouldn't compromise on the cost of the tank to avoid future catastrophies so why compromise on the cost of the heart and lungs (live rock) of the system and compromise on excellent water quality and purity ?
Now I agree that there will be people who cannot afford LR and I respect that - but you can build it up gradually over the years, and every time you buy a coral you get a bit of live rock as a bonus! I also agree there is live rock and there is live rock - it should be well cared for/cured and nurtured from harvest to you buying it and it should smell sweet - no foul smells. The quality of live rock available does vary. The last batch I got off Jason was beautiful with a very open sponge like structure (large surface area) - which makes it also more cost effective. It was very easy to landscape (and quicker than I thought!) - and not an acrylic rod in sight - and after just 3 months the tank looks fantastic, beautiful and healthy (corals and fish) - and all water parameters spot on !
Yes, definitely Live Rock !
I would consider RB only for aesthetic purposes (and maybe if i was broke, but if i was broke i really shouldn't be keeping a marine tank should i!?)
Environmental impact of LR collection for the ornamental hobby? It's really not an issue is it (unless i've missed some breaking news over the past month and 1/2 while i have had no internet connection)? South pacific countries and even countries surrounding the red sea use LR to pack their roads.
In short, LR for me (just not at the time when i am trying to aquascape, cursing and panicking that i am taking too long and it is drying out!!!!!)
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